PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Sarras Volcae on March 06, 2010, 08:53:22 am
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there's only a tl;dr because i suck at writing
training takes too long. i don't want to waste all my free time leveling. surprising, i know, that some players have real lives. maybe levelling takes so long to keep powerlevellers away... idk. that wouldn't make sense because if training was easy, they'd get bored quickly. strict roleplayers could train too, and they wouldn't have to have characters who are ic powerbuilders yet ooc pansies. just let everyone max out if they want, and there will be more roleplay, if that's really what this game is looking for.
i'm sarras volcae, and i approve this crappy message
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i've heard responses to things like this a million times.
rp'rs dont need training at all.
they shouldnt have to ahve any sort of training to be able to communicate and have fun with other players. take your friend stashka for example
he's told me before, he doesnt train, he only comes to ps to have fun with people
training is nowhere near a neccesity.
thats somthing you have to live with
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but stashka's character is a wimp, and he uses the game mechanics to show that :P so he really has no need to train.
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i've heard responses to things like this a million times.
rp'rs dont need training at all.
they shouldnt have to ahve any sort of training to be able to communicate and have fun with other players. take your friend stashka for example
he's told me before, he doesnt train, he only comes to ps to have fun with people
training is nowhere near a neccesity.
thats somthing you have to live with
RPers don't need training then what do we do? to have a character you don't just sit there in a Tavern and say random stuff that your character is a hero and blah blah you need to show it, the only way is to train that. but yes there is a lot of threads like mine that I made :)
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Sarras does have a point which i've thought about from time to time. If you could max out quickly then yes, there would be more time to rp.
Regarding the need for stats, some rpers limit their ic actions to their stats so they do need to train to back up their rp.
In my opinion, it would be ideal if one could train quickly but be limited to mastery in one area provided you accept a permanent handicap ( weakening in opposing stats) ,and perhaps near mastery in a secondary skill.
On the other hand, there are players who enjoys bashing monsters and upping their stats like what is done in older single player *rpg* games. This rapid ttaining would probably end their fun prematurely.
While laanx is meant to be an rp server I suspect that the game is intended to be entertaining for both rp and leveling.
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personally the only thing i think takes to long to train is magic, everything else goes just fine, the only currentsetback is the issue with the pp switching around a lot
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I posted part of the following in the 'NPC re-factor and you' thread, and got a response that frankly was even more discouraging.
Calling into question my ability to think, or assuming that some people have real lives and somehow I don't, perhaps these aren't the best ways to communicate and build communities of respect, in my not so humble opinion. X-/
But even that response reminds me that WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT and what we are looking for- in leisure time, in our RL and perhaps even in our IG relationships (assuming one is playing a character who isn't of the 'chaos and killing' power persuasion)- what we are looking for is as varied as our characters, our environments, our biologies and our 'souls'.
So, to reiterate my own point, and forgive me please for having the audacity or even the ego perhaps, to quote myself...
"Well I hesitated to post here, then I thought, what the hey.. it's just my opinion.... so here goes...
As far as the points go, I (again just my opinion) am frustrated by how hard it is to earn points, except by questing, which my main has now done massive numbers of... it seems pretty impossible now to continue on his character
motivation, it seems unattainable to earn enough points to afford magic training at the higher levels, not to mention the cost. I have found in the two months since the new version I've really lost interest in playing.. it's too much
of a grind, and the folks I used to rp with, many seem to be gone now. So what's the point, if the rp factor is so diminished AND the ability to advance my character's goals is so hindered by the mechanics?
So Roled is pretty frustrated...
Just thought I'd let you know.
and
THANK YOU for the rivnaks!"
This is my experience. It is valid, as valid as anyone else (tho I admit I am biased towards participatory democracy). I CAN imagine the difficulties in 'creating a world' as the PS motto goes, and continually applaud the brains, the developers, the programers, the game masters and mistresses, the techies and the writers and the volunteers all, AND THE PLAYERS who are creating this game. In creating this world, tho, I hope always to experience respect for and appreciation of the valid experiences of us, the 'testers', the players, the chameleons known as 'the community'.
Can't believe I'm quoting Rigwyn again (Xiosia's socks, I hope Roled never meets Rigwyn! ::) ) but here goes! I AGREE with Riqwyn! ehheheh
Sarras does have a point which i've thought about from time to time. If you could max out quickly then yes, there would be more time to rp.
Regarding the need for stats, some rpers limit their ic actions to their stats so they do need to train to back up their rp.
In my opinion, it would be ideal if one could train quickly but be limited to mastery in one area provided you accept a permanent handicap ( weakening in opposing stats) ,and perhaps near mastery in a secondary skill.
On the other hand, there are players who enjoys bashing monsters and upping their stats like what is done in older single player *rpg* games. This rapid ttaining would probably end their fun prematurely.
While laanx is meant to be an rp server I suspect that the game is intended to be entertaining for both rp and leveling.
I'm one of those who, if I could progress a little more quickly, I would have more time to role play.
I'm also one of the ones who tries to plays to his stats- as Roled gets to be a better magician, his maturity, his life goals, his strengths and his character becomes deeper, more assured, less wide eyed. Not being able to make progress on his life goals is hindering role play enormously, for me.
One other tangent: In this game, where rewards are based mostly on killing and slashing and hacking away at monsters and cutthroats and insects, and in this game where so many player's characters seem to be set upon creating death, injury and chaos, I deliberately chose, when I started almost 3 years ago, to try to play an alternative character.
Roled is a pacifist. He is kind hearted, and as generous as his tria allows. He likes almost everyone {except Rigwyn :devil: } and avoids those he doesn't like or is scared of. He loves the idea of a Goddess of Peace and so Xiosia has become more and more important to him. He tries to be helpful. And he longs to become an adept Crystal Mage, and use his developing skills to heal people. He works hard to make enough points and tria to train in magic, and now with the re-factoring, it seems the only way to earn significant pps is to kill monsters and rogues. So he reluctantly trains swords. He's a genuinely nice guy with some skeletons in his backstory closet. And, coming out of that closet, he is gay.
I would like to get the satisfaction again that I once had, playing this game and rping with folks. Roled continues to become sadder, and more of a loner. Not by choice..
There's my 50 hexa's worth of ramblings on the 'too long to train' thread. Thanks for listening.
Yers,
Roled Rolak
SoX- Sons of Xiosia
Cognate
Knowledge Seekers
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Even pacifists are required to train martial skills in Yliakum law. Whether or not combat magic is included in that edict is unclear but it likely is. Why should we care if your character is gay, how does that relate to this thread?
You want to avoid combat and still get pp's try weapon repair last I looked it was quite rewarding in experience, although I haven't looked at it since the refactor and it too is quite expensive to train -- all those repair kits in addition to the training costs. Learn to cook, lots of free raw material to practice on just sitting there waiting to be picked up.
There are still bugs in the progression system but just complaining doesn't get them fixed, do you use the bugtracker?
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There are many things that take longer to practice than weapons and armor and that has to do with how long it takes to get practice rather than money / progression points. This is another thing that needs to be looked at.
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The only time I find to train in Planeshift is when I have no school and I am physically injured so I have to stay home. The massive amount of time it takes to train a single weapon combat skill is too much for any normal player. This is my opinion and observation from personal experience and chatting with friends in game.
If the development team decided to raise the difficulty of training to keep away power levelers, it doesn't work. They enjoy hacking and slashing until they maxed what they please. Rather, lower the difficulty. If possible, move the system away from the necessity to do repeated actions like grinding. That would keep power levelers away more effectively.
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Thanks Bilbous for your comments: quick replies in orange
Even pacifists are required to train martial skills in Yliakum law.
I know-Roled has and does.
Whether or not combat magic is included in that edict is unclear but it likely is.
Just reread an edict today in the Octarchal Decree that seems to lead to the opposite conclusion.
Why should we care if your character is gay, how does that relate to this thread?
Speaks to the point of our characters being varied and different, and how the current refactoring limits the ability of alternative characters to advance their life goals when they differ from mainstream PS slash and hack
You want to avoid combat and still get pp's try weapon repair last I looked it was quite rewarding in experience, although I haven't looked at it since the refactor and it too is quite expensive to train
Roled has and it is -- all those repair kits in addition to the training costs. Learn to cook, Roled has and is...no money in it.... lots of free raw material to practice on just sitting there waiting to be picked up.
There are still bugs in the progression system but just ahem? ::| complaining doesn't get them fixed Roled doesn't just complain- in fact I rarely complain. Sorry I thought a complaint dept thread was for...well... complaints. I hope you can attend the Parade of Guilds Roled and the SoX are organizing for Unodin- see each town bulletin board for details
, do you use the bugtracker? I do and I have and will continue to, thanks for the reminder...
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There are many things that take longer to practice than weapons and armor and that has to do with how long it takes to get practice rather than money / progression points. This is another thing that needs to be looked at. Agreed! ;D
Roled Rolak
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hope you enjoyed the tea.
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Thankee- it were delicious!
May Xiosia spread charm flowers before ye!
RR
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I also somehow remember that the increased difficulty was a try to make it a better environment for RPers. If it now turns out that it didn't work or made things even worse it should of course be reconsidered.
It's tempting to do it the other way round and make it more easy; but that might also turn out to be even worse - e.g. if indeed many people leave after having reached their maximum training.
Sen
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no one leaves after maxing out. they duel and rp being super awesome... training is not (or should not be) the point to the game. not even in world of warcraft. it's about having fun, which you do once you're maxed. you can't roleplay if you're busy grinding.
i've lost motivation to continue playing planeshift. only thing that keeps me here is occasional roleplay, once or twice a week. i enjoy training, but not in ps. it's too dull and tedious, especially with the constant lag.
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Oddly enough, back a few years ago when there was nothing much else but combat skills to train and max stats was about 100, I got bored and took a six month break once my main character was pretty much maxed. The game wasn't enough fun to work up other characters. Later when stats and skills got expanded I came back but training had become such a chore that I've never gotten bilbous maxed in any skill, max stats was just a matter of spending points and money. Of course it doesn't help in getting maxed that I tend to use him to train everything so that my efforts are not concentrated.
It is a good thing I enjoy the bug testing aspect as without that I probably would not still be around. I have recently started new characters to test general progression but they have not gotten very far.
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Lol folks, we know the system needs to be tweaked more. Seriously, we already said so a bunch of times.
I love all of you, but for real, patience!
Our rules people are literally, on vacation.
I suppose that for people who haven't been here terribly long the relatively quick pace that these issues are being addressed must seem terribly slow.
We're changing so much, but progression and balance are a very tricky issue that's very "whack-a-mole" every tweak touches everything else.
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The question is: How many hours of none stop play with the best of the best equipment possible should it take for a player to reach the maximum level for each skill?
after that, all that is left is some math...
for example, the record in WOW to reach max level is somewhere around 90 hours (I'm not a WOW player and this is PS and not wow, but the point is still the same)
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According to Talad, it should take years. Take it up with him if you have an issue with it, but do it in pm.
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how long is a year in the game compared to real life time? :innocent:
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how long is a year in the game compared to real life time? :innocent:
1 rl year is 6 years in the game
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....years? is that a joke? i don't think i'm going to bother training again if this is what talad really thinks. might just leave the game.
???
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what talad thinks makes sense though, do you really think a swordsman can master the art of a blade in mabey a week of cramming? or a magician to master a way in a month?
if you do then your stupid...
it takes years to become a master at somthing, and if
how long is a year in the game compared to real life time? :innocent:
1 rl year is 6 years in the game
is true
then it wont take you as serious ammount of time as it seems,
it should take mabey about 2 months or so.
I've played PS for a full year now, and its a game i'll stick with for a while, but the only thing i have ever maxed so far, is heavy armor and stats...
im really casual and gradual about training, and i still have fun with the game, so i dont see why other people cant enjoy it the same way
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364 * 24 = 8736 total hours in a year
8736 - 3640 (10 hours of sleep a day) = 5096 hours a year not sleeping
5096 * 1638 (4.5 hours to eat 3 decent sit down meals and to cook said meals) = 3458 hours left not sleeping and eating
(yet ideally you have school or a 40 hour a week job, well OK.....)
3458 - 2080 = 1378 hours a year of free time, but most people have a life outside of PS so lets divide that by three = 459.3333 hours a year spent playing PS
459.3333 / 6 PS years = 76.55555 hours of game time available to play through one PS year of training
Lets say it takes about 4 PS years to master a single skill ( like a 4 year college ).
76.55555 hours of game time available to play through one PS year * 4 = 306.2222
With this information I would suggest that Completely mastering a skill set should take no longer than a total of 306.2222 hours of playing PS.
For balancing reasons, it should be reasonable (at lest to me it is) to determine what qualifies as a skill set. I would consider
slightly increasing the training times for skill sets that can be trained at the same time; however, I would also suggest slightly decreasing the training time for skills that are not directly related to other skills
For example:
-Trade would be its own skill set as it is not directly related to any other skill and would have its total training time reduced.
-Combat would be a broad skill set that would probably have the total training time increased.
Take for example unarmored combat. The unarmored can naturally be, and normally would be if you where an unarmored fighter, trained at the same time with any weapon skill.
- Crafting on the other hand should probably not receive any adjustment to the 306.2222 hours -(or at least not as much as the combat skill set)- it should take to completely master making a normal un-enchanted maximum quality item as it contains skills that cannot be trained at the exact same time.
Constructive Debate Go!! :detective:
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things just got to numbery and techinical for me
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I always thought there were 365 (1/4) days in a year was I leaping to a faulty conclusion?
I'm lucky if I get 6 hours of sleep a night.
I eat one meal a day and can do it in front of the computer.
I am apparently unemployable
trade is not a skill
creating a weapon entails both blacksmith skill and the particular weapon skill.
Personally if I played for 300+ hours I would hope to be fairly well trained in most of my primary skills and not just have one skill at max.
Then again I could play for 300 hours and never train a thing but what you suggest leaves no time for that.
Now I do not have any skills maxed out, about the highest I have achieved is 76. I am fairly sure I have logged that many hours amongst my various characters and bilbous has quite a few skills trained higher than 20.
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....years? is that a joke? i don't think i'm going to bother training again if this is what talad really thinks. might just leave the game.
???
Getting maximum skills is a HUGE job. You don't expect that to happen in just a month or so. Also why do you need to have maxed stats anyway? That's not really what PS is about IMHO.
Greetings,
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The hoop you have to jump though isn't that big. Just train a few levels a day consistently and you'll have maxed a few skills in a year or so.
I don't have and weapon or magic skills maxed yet, but I'm about half way there.
Even with weapon, armor and a magic way trained a third of the way you would have a pretty powerful character
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I have played 16 months now and I put in more hours per week than most people. IN that time I have only maxed out my physical stats and one skill, mining, I am getting close to maxing out a couple of other skills finally. If the only thing I was interested in doing was leveling then I could have maxed lots of skills by now but I also do a lot of RP. I feel I have sufficient skills to support my RP and that is good enough for me. I don't have to have maxed skills to enjoy the game and I am content to slowly work my way towards improving my skills over time. Also I tend to learn some of all available skills instead of concentrating on any one thing so it probably right that I'm not maxed in more skills because in reality a character wouldn't have the time or ability to be maxed in more than one or two areas. Actually in reality the vast majority of people wouldn't even be able to master ( ie max) a single skill much less several.
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I think it needs to be somewhat hard to train otherwise everyone would be maxed out. ;D
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I think they did that on purpose so we would train while rping like summoning your familiar, or magic, fighting etc. It is not supposed to be get training, fight, get training, fight
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sarras, honestly take your complaint directly to the boss, it is extremely unlikely he'll read it here.
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Do the math. Train one level in sword per day and you'll have it maxed in 100 days - less what you currently have.
1 level a day is doable given the amount of time that you play.
Those who work hard and devote lots of training deserve to benefit from their training.
Regarding the argument about having a life, I understand where you are coming from. I have very little time to play too. You can't expect to be all pimped out like the 14 year old player who skips his homework and plays from late afternoon until bedtime or joe jobless who lives with his parents, doesn't bother to work, and levels all day ;)
Set a realistic goal and chip away at it at your own pace.
If it helps set intermediate goals.
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In my opinion, all of this discussion will make a lot more sense when the progression system has gone through some more tuning. I hope that one day we will see a more sophisticated process of training where you get various amounts of practice for doing different types of actions related to a certain skill. Of course, this would make things more complicated, but the progressive aspect of practice could be shifted away from longer durations of monotonic actions to increasingly complex and challenging procedures. A big problem about complains and the progression system is probably that no matter what will change in the rules, many payers will be unhappy with it.
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In my opinion, all of this discussion will make a lot more sense when the progression system has gone through some more tuning. I hope that one day we will see a more sophisticated process of training where you get various amounts of practice for doing different types of actions related to a certain skill. Of course, this would make things more complicated, but the progressive aspect of practice could be shifted away from longer durations of monotonic actions to increasingly complex and challenging procedures. A big problem about complains and the progression system is probably that no matter what will change in the rules, many payers will be unhappy with it.
Actually some parts of cooking are already a bit like that. Making some of the more complicated dishes (like noodles and dishes using noodles) require lots of different steps in particular order using different implements and workplaces and different ingredients. It is a lot less boring then just melting iron, making ingots, melting them and so on.
Greetings,
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Actually some parts of cooking are already a bit like that. Making some of the more complicated dishes (like noodles and dishes using noodles) require lots of different steps in particular order using different implements and workplaces and different ingredients. It is a lot less boring then just melting iron, making ingots, melting them and so on.
Indeed, and I highly appreciate such things. Also, I had the feeling there was a hard limit for obtaining cooking practice with simple actions, which is definitely a step in the right direction, but probably the first in a long series of modifications.
Thanks for your efforts.
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I dont think its that hard to train your character up. Say you want to max out your swords/axe...beat it down all the way to nothing. there is all the practice you need...now for the pps go out with some friends and kill! It is NOT that hard to get pps. dig and smelt some gold for money. you could spend your few hours a day planning to train instead of replying about how hard it is to train...
Enjoy
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAH ;D
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now that i think about it, when i made this thread, i was extremely pissed at my lag. so it's more likely that my character hasn't advanced much due to a bad internet connection and real life issues, rather than levelling taking too long. the lag has kept me from playing. it takes at least 30 minutes to log on in hydlaa, combat crashes the game, and i constantly get freezes that last up to 10 minutes. that's why my character's been hanging out in kada el and can't really leave the city... not even to the library or arena. X-/
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looks like your computer is not able to run nowadays games
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Please try to focus on the topic at hand and not drown this in petty arguments and flames. I cleaned only the threads leading in that direction.
If you think that training takes too long I highly suggest you make productive suggestions rather than attack one another.
I hope that people will understand that me asking them to complain directly to the person in charge is not personal, it's just that you're better off being heard in that way.
Sure this is the complaint department, but I imagine you want something to change more than you simply want to have a place to complain.
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i can see why that would work, i mean, how often do devs have, to read everyones complaints, if they are working most of their time trying to fix problems there already are...like lag and crashing..
its a lot simpler to just email the guy in charge
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he doesn't read my messages anyway. idc anymore
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there's only a tl;dr because i suck at writing
training takes too long. i don't want to waste all my free time leveling. surprising, i know, that some players have real lives. maybe levelling takes so long to keep powerlevellers away... idk. that wouldn't make sense because if training was easy, they'd get bored quickly. strict roleplayers could train too, and they wouldn't have to have characters who are ic powerbuilders yet ooc pansies. just let everyone max out if they want, and there will be more roleplay, if that's really what this game is looking for.
i'm sarras volcae, and i approve this crappy message
well for me trainign is easy, all you have to do is find a strong creature, go on defensive and then do something else until you rank up, then go train the skill then etc, but for magic training it is hard since it costs much moneya dn PP and also you have to keep pressing keys to rank up which is annoying c
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http://progressquest.com/ (http://progressquest.com/)
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well, it's impossible for me to train now. my computer's a big stinky turd.
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that sounds like a personnle problem
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well, it's impossible for me to train now. my computer's a big stinky turd.
THAT'S why I could smell your crappy RP.
OOOH!!! Roleplay diss!!
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well, it's impossible for me to train now. my computer's a big stinky turd.
THAT'S why I could smell your crappy RP.
OOOH!!! Roleplay diss!!
he takes em as he sees em XD
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yes, earowo, this is completely a personnel problem.
i don't have the same feelings as i did in the original post btw... i just don't like the training system. but that's irrelevant to the topic.
this thread is dead
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its as dead as my friend edd who likes his thread
oh i got a good one
Ben drew Drew drewing a drewing of Drew
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Hope I'm not resurrecting something that is too dead, but I'm curious if developers have a timeframe in mind, based on the "average player" to max out a skill. Or even gain 10 levels, 20 levels, so on. What amount of time would you say would be an "average player" would commit in a week to leveling a skill, and how many weeks should it take for the "average player" to hit certain levels? How long should need to be spent training vs. how much time needed to gather PPs and trias to train? Bear in mind, that a player should not be maxed in all skills, unless you have huge amounts of time to dedicate to the game. Another thing, getting stats, magic, crafting, and other skills would each have their timeframe, and would not be standard across the entire game.
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It just needs to be more fun to level up really. Then no one would mind how long it took.
As it stands people grind away looking forward to better days when they are maxed.
This point has already been raised with respects to cooking.
The barrier here is reluctance to involve player skill as that's what tends to make things fun. The only other way around it is offering 'team work points' making using all skills in a team like manner more profitable in terms of pp. Community is the only thing that makes MMORPGs fun. The mechanics are usually awful compared to all other games purely because of the restriction in skill required.