PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aiwendil on November 08, 2011, 06:51:34 pm
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Great...I created a new character who is needed for a RP. No problem so far, quick option "Knight" gave me a char with more than 100 STR so I can even follow the plan to have him wear a chain mail shirt (At least I think so...will see if the STR requirements were changed). No stupid "char creation" content in my description...looks all fine for a new RP char.
So...here I am with a empty inventory and zero tria, right next to Harnquist. Five minutes for copying the pre-written description in game...everything is ready to start.
Task: Getting leather pants, leather boots, a chain mail torso and a longsword to have the char fit the description at least a bit.
All no problem, should be easy to get in a short time. Lets start with getting a few tria. Can't be arsed to get into the PS combat...especially not if a new char needs 5 minutes to kill a rat so lets go for some quests.
Apples for Harnquist - Balance 120 tria
Healing salve - Cost 100 tria, reward 750 tria, balance: 670 tria
Incompetent guards loosing gauntlets and forgetting to pack launch themselves: Reward: 630 tria, Balance: 1300 tria
Hey...that really looks good so far. Only one or two more and I have enough tria for the basic items I need for this char..and even some pocket-money left for one or two evenings in Kada El's. Lets get to the next quest...Didn't Allelia always wanted opinions about her new drinks. *sigh* Obviously not anymore...seems I need to do some other unknown quest before that. No problem, there are plenty of other easy quests in Hydlaa that don't even need me to leave the town. Let's see if Lucky is still an unlucky bastard...what...the NPC has again nothing to offer. Okay...but I'm sure the Kran on the plaza still wants his book. Oh...he is also quiet? Ah...finally...a quest in the temple. Yeah sure...I run to the ruins now just to figure out I will be send to a sister in BD afterwards...forget it, there must be other easy quest in Hydlaa for starters. If I had enough PPs by now I could get some mining training and do the Harnquist quests now...but first this would waste some of my hard earned money again, second mining is dead boring and third I don't have enough PPs for even the first level of mining yet. So lets continue to look for easy quests. Twenty minutes later: Okay...guess I have to run to Oja for some Falka. Next shock in Ojaveda...3200 tria for a longsword??? Hey...the chain mail torse, leather pants and boots together are not even half as expensive as one longsword. Fine, lets forget the longsword, I won't use it anyway. It's just for the atmosphere. As I probably will never equip it others won't ever see it. So, buying some falka for 200 tria and back to Hydlaa....to get 250 tria as reward!!! 50 tria for a trip to Ojaveda?...Falka my ass.
Fazit:
Screw it...I just login Aiwendil, hide behind a wall and kill monsters with magic then transfer the money to my other char. That's as OOC as questing and will take far less time. Quests always used to be pretty pointless...but with the new prerequisite for almost every quest they aren't even useful for some easy money for RP chars anymore. Do a quest, then check out all NPCs again to see if they have a new one available..and please keep on doing that for the next years. This sounds like real fun. Seriously, at this point it appears to me getting rid of the quest system completely and starting from scratch is a better option than keeping it. Quests were always just used as a poor excuse for being unable to make settings public or as limiting factor for items but now they lost the last right to exist.
But this whole debacle allowed me to see a bit more of Yliakum than just Hydlaa...so a few more impressions:
- The new grass texture in Hydlaa is pretty nice...it hurts my eyes and will probably take weeks to get used to but from an objective point of view it's a great improvement.
- Same for bumpmapping in Ojaveda..needs time to get used to but enhances the gfx for sure. Oh...and good work with the new Dsar Akkaido...really doesn't look bad ;):
- Most of the gfx errors I'm used to are still around...but it seems a lot new ones were added..like transparent floor on maps with fog, Block-trees (missing transparency of the leaves texture) when seen from some distance or the size changing monsters.
- A lot of the quest items got new 2d icons...though all I tried till now have no 3d model. But still it makes them a lot more useful for RP now.
- The portal signpost are still there...but so far I had no problems with changing maps.
- A lot of very useful new options. I really like that I can tag the different sources for the logfiles...makes log-filtering with grep a lot easier. And "Always deny marriage proposals" is great....ability to remove "alliance" and "channels" chat tabs also.
- I think I asked that already once before and never got an answer. What does "Graphics Quality" in "General" options of the launcher do? Does this one overwrite whatever settings I made in "Graphics" if not set to "Custom"?
- Also the ability to turn off weather is great.
- The loading times increased a lot...maybe I should try setting "background Loading" to something other than "off" at some point...but I'm sooo scared of that option.
- The new char creation looks less messy...but haven't seen all of it yet as I used the quick option.
- The sound has some serious problems. I used to have everything turned off except interface sounds in the past (liked the feedback if I clicked something)...but that doesn't seem possible anymore as I probably would run amok at some point just to get the "click" sound stopped again. ;)
- A lot more monsters around...guess that's an advantage for most people except me.
- Why? How could you? The Gazebo used to be such a romantic place. Now i imagine it like this: "xxx leans against the railing, unfolds the parchment and starts reading his prepared love poem." - "yyy couldn't take her eyes off xxx while listening" - "zzz runs past, greeting the two. "Hope I didn't disturb you two...just on my way to the pterosaur route to get the Amdeneir...just go on with what you were doing."" - "xxx lets out a soft sigh then looks down to the parchment again and after taking deep breath start again." - "aaa waves to both. "Good that I see you...Want to see the new weapon I got from a blacksmith in Amdeneir?" "Two days later xxx and yyy were sentenced to death by the Octarchy for attacking a valuable Pterosaur and slaying two innocent citizens and the owner of the Pterosaur"
Edit:Typos
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Two days later xxx and yyy were sentenced to death by the Octarchy for attacking a valuable Pterosaur and slaying two innocent citizens and the owner of the Pterosaur"
Venorel cackles gleefully
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You are better off starting with some skills, quick character development is a waste of potential. chainmail is more than 100 st now.
apples sell for 4 tria so set up your /target next item /pickup shortcut and collect a bunch from the orchard around harnies. There are a bunch of new quest groups "introduction to science" and the like, if you had a new account you would have gotten a letter that told you about them as well as a reward for going through the tutorial at the cost of more time getting started. You find those letters on the ground from time to time.
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you've a bugged openal. unfortunately openal devs don't adress the problem without a test case we can't provide as it goes through cs.
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@bilbous
Sorry..disagreeing there. Quick is really the best way to get a strong char...and STR is the only skill needed for RP char to enable them to carry enough items. Everything else is mostly useless.
And mostly complaining because I always used quests for my RP chars to gather around 5K in two hours...that used to be more than enough money for the whole lifetime of those chars.
@weltall
Ahm...offical gentoo openAL package...works well with all other programs using it. So..yes..it might be a openAL bug...but from the looks it seems everyone else is able to get around it. But the sound is no real problem....really only missing the interface sounds as it is pretty hard to make out at times if you really changed the chat tab.
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I see what you mean. Last time I looked at character creation you go no skills from the quick method. Of course the skills you got from choosing the +40% ST and EN are halfway useless for a starting character. The useful ones were axe and shield handling, the heavy armor requires too much strength and body development is unimplemented. I managed to get 100s in ST and EN with a Lemur character, I imagine that would be nigh on impossible with the custom method. Still I normally choose kran characters to maximize carrying capacity.
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True...I would never suggest using the quick option for chars that are meant to be trained. But the quick-knight option is the killer option for every char only needed for some RP. With +40% STR and END those chars can carry enough and still run around for some time without getting exhausted. If you want a main char on the other hand customize is probably the better solution. Especially if you don't want any skills that are not useable in game yet. But as I'm not planing to do any training or using of game mechanics with this char I can deal with the unused body development skills.
Oh..and Kran was no option for this char...needed another race. But a Kran-knight used to be pretty nice according to strength..started with something around 160 STR I think.
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There are plenty of available quests in hydlaa, you just need to speak with the right npcs. The 5 minutes rats is something we reviewed few times but never managed to fix it for all possible initial stats. The 'no inventory at startup' is something we should fix by providing at least the basic 'friend letter' object to point new non primary chars in the right direction.
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@bilbous
Sorry..disagreeing there. Quick is really the best way to get a strong char...and STR is the only skill needed for RP char to enable them to carry enough items. Everything else is mostly useless.
And mostly complaining because I always used quests for my RP chars to gather around 5K in two hours...that used to be more than enough money for the whole lifetime of those chars.
@weltall
Ahm...offical gentoo openAL package...works well with all other programs using it. So..yes..it might be a openAL bug...but from the looks it seems everyone else is able to get around it. But the sound is no real problem....really only missing the interface sounds as it is pretty hard to make out at times if you really changed the chat tab.
we just use 1.12 when doing builds and there are no issues. It could also be that they don't use the same api as cs.
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There are plenty of available quests in hydlaa, you just need to speak with the right npcs.
The point was not that there are no quests in Hydlaa...my point was that a lot quest needing no former skill training, involve no fighting or mining and take only part inside Hydlaa are not available right from the start anymore. Sure..as I said, I found quests that would send me to BD, would make me mine for some ores or want me to get some animal parts, but none of those actions are fun at all. I won't bother to invest any time in game-mechanically "developing" a char with a estimated lifespan of a bit more than a month. (Okay...have to be truthful there...I wouldn't even do that for a char that should last longer)
The 5 minutes rats is something we reviewed few times but never managed to fix it for all possible initial stats.
Probably should be done something about...but that's nothing -I- care about. I can imagine it's very difficult to come up with good starting monsters for chars with strength ranges from 28 to 150...and with some of them already having a weapon right from the start and some not. But as I have no real interest in PS combat at all I leave it to others more caring about it to suggest improvements.
The 'no inventory at startup' is something we should fix by providing at least the basic 'friend letter' object to point new non primary chars in the right direction.
Ah..sorry, I only mentioned the empty inventory to say this is about a newly created char who didn't do the tutorial. An empty inventory is all fine with me. But I already created a bugreport because some quests look pretty inconsistent in case you haven't done the tutorial before...and having people to start with the letter fixes this only for some. But again more interesting for others...I only want a way to create a char, don't have to deal with any game mechanics and get that char ready for some RP.
we just use 1.12 when doing builds and there are no issues. It could also be that they don't use the same api as cs.
That's probably the problem...I'm on 1.13 here. But 1.12.854 is masked unstable in gentoo. The next lower stable release is 1.11.753. And I'm kind of suspicious if a lower version than the current one is masked unstable...usually there is a good reason for it. Maybe I feel like experimenting around with openAL version at some point, but for the moment I can deal with turning sound off.
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probably because someone had his own bad day
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libopenal-dev
debian squeeze which is current debian stable and debian is bloody stable has 1.12
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By skipping on the Tutorial you missed a lot that makes starting a new character a bit easier, Trias, a weapon, a rock pick, leather pants, a glyph, a couple lumps of iron and a torch. Some of those items you can sell if they aren't useful to your character for more trias.
As Talad mentioned you also get the introduction letter which directs you to a number of NPCs who offer introduction quests. doing the introduction quests, which mostly involve just standing and reading text, unlocks a number of the low level easy to do quests you are talking about Aiwendil. The introduction quests even give you the names of some NPCs to seek jobs from after you finish the introduction quest.
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I did not skip the tutorial on intention. The money from the tutorial would have been a great help already. But to do it I had to create a new email address and a new PS accout..while still having one free char slot on an existing account.
For the introduction quests: Yes..Harnquist unlocks a lot of mining and crafting quests...all need training. The science quests are a bit better there...but some of them need fighting. And it takes a lot time like this as you have to do them all in a specific order. Magic quests the same...need training.
Edit:
But maybe it would be a good idea to have all chars doing the tutorial now again...as it used to be the case when the tutorial was first introduced. Now it's possible to skip the tutorial...so everyone can decide if he/she wants to do it.
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The problem I found with playing new chars is that pp is extremely limited for all the quests I could do. So training was really out of the question. So, in order to get tria, I deleted a char and made a new one with mining parents, so that she could dig from the start. The new char is still having major problems because no pp, but she's got tria.
If I were a new player, I would not stay in the game at this point. I'd play for a day or two then quit. Because it is too hard to have fun on your own, before meeting people and doing any larger rp than behaving properly IC at all times. The reason for this is that it was just too hard to advance, mainly with pp and secondly with tria.
I am willing to make a bet - that if in a future release, the pp for quests and killing low level mobs is increased significantly and tria rewards also increased but less so, that more players will stay. Then you wouldn't spend 5 minutes on a rat to get 1 pp, that is an insult and makes you hate the game.
I bet the number of players would increase exponentially. Because no matter what kind of char you play - whether you'll rp an archer member of the DoX, so would like to come to them already with some arrows and a bow and some practice (nevermind that they would help you out if you came as a noob), or you want to rp a submissive lemming with violent tendencies and join the Stillwater Peace Corps, or want to be a lawful good with the Warriors - whatever, it is more fun choosing a guild and playing the game if you've sunk into the atmosphere on your own a bit, and you have the chainmail that you imagine makes you look hot, and the sword, and are above a level 2 in using it, so can protect a damsel with a rat wrassling with her skirt hem.
I don't need any response, but just to back up the original post and go beyond it to say it's a drag being a new char as the game stands. I don't think it's because of the types of rps, I think it's because there is not enough fun/advancement for newbs to get caught by the game (ie intrigued) and stay long enough to meet all of us darlings.
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Improving the first hour of gameplay is extremely important. Our reports show that the majority of new players quit after 10-20 minutes. the tutorial has been created to have a smoother experience, but seems we are not yet there. Is the rat killing time the main issue together with difficulty to get tria? What other elements can make the first 20 minutes better?
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What other elements can make the first 20 minutes better?
pps seems to be a big issue. Perhaps a sliding scale that allows very undeveloped characters to gain extra pps than normal for a short time. This is suggested with the only intention to keep new players longer. Personally my latest noob alt saught other means to counter the fact that he is a vegetarian and does not kill monsters. The furnace has become his friend. :)
- Nova
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a new player might not even get out of the tutorial in the first 10-20 minutes. perhaps you could check to see how many quit before making it into the real world.
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for most people it takes about 40 minutes to an hour to work through the tutorial. Making rats easier might help some people get through the tutorial as well.
Kikiris are easier to kill than rats with the sme amount of exp and all the kikiri loot sells for 60 trias, which is better than rats. Problem is the Kikiris are out in Oja. Maybe if we had some Kikiris hanging around outside of the Arena that might help some people then after Kikiris they could move to rats.
The Food Assoc quest chain is good since the first several quests give you the name of who to look for next. The Intro to the food Assoc sends you to the next NPC in the series and the second quest sends you to the third person in the series and the third person send you to the 4th person in the series. Only thing missing there is possibly a hint as to where the next person can be found. All of the first 4 in the food Assoc are in Hydlaa ( or not far out of Hydlaa) and don't involve the need for killing.
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Hi all, I recently found Planeshift and have been playing it LOTS the past month. Firstly I have to say I love this game so much! Respect to all involved.
At first I made a Klyros huntery kind of guy, then thought maybe Enki was my thing, so I deleted my Klyros and made an Enki Warrior type char. After a little bit of that I decided Klyros was what I wanted, and 3rd time lucky I made my toon. So I have done the tutorial and early parts of the game a few times recently.
Personally, I haven't had much trouble figuring it all out. I love having to explore and talk to people to find out things. I found the 'Letter of a friend' and Jayose's Library very helpful and made it easy to find some quests and whos who in town. I most certainly never had trouble killing a One Eyed Rat, took me more like 20 seconds, not 5mins, and my char started with far less than 100 Strength (which is the req for mail armor btw). It took me some time to figure out where to mine ore and how to make a sword etc, but with a little help from others I got there eventually, and the crafting is so in depth it's very fun and rewarding and totally enjoyable.
Early on, Harnquist tells you to speak to Fholen Medra (i think). You right click Fholen and the text options are:
1.Introduction to mining.
"Hi, I'm searching for some tips on mining, can you help me?"
Fholen tells you that he used to be a gem miner near Ojaveda. He doesn't give an introductory quest like many of the other npcs, or much info on mining or Iron Ore (which is what you need at the time). This really confused me, as I was running around between Hydlaa and Ojaveda for a long time searching for Iron Ore, but like I said, in the end I figured it all out, and I got to visit Ojaveda! I haven't looked up any solutions or maps on the internet, and so far I've solved all the riddles myself. :detective: (damn gregori has me stumped tho!)
So thats about the only constructive criticism I can think of, and a few other broken and / or repeatable quests which are probably known.
So I just thought I'd share my experiences so far as a new player, and maybe it will offer some insight, maybe not. But I'd say don't change anything guys! This game is great, and the right people will find it.
I'd say add more to the world. Outside the cities it feels kinda empty in places (but I'm a total noob so what would i know!) I only just discovered the dungeon under Laanx temple the other day lol.
But all in all, keep up the great work! As I become more experienced I'm sure I can offer better feedback and input. :)
Edit: To be honest, the thing which I struggled with the most was the odd / glitchy character animations when they move. I have tried a Ylian male and I can't stand the way they run. It was enough to make me delete him. Enki run style looks kinda weird too, and all the characters kind of slide along the ground, as I've seen mentioned in another post.
I think the models look amazing and incredibly realistic, it's just when they move. X-/ If you're worried about people leaving 10mins in, maybe that has something to do with it.
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Thank you for your valuable opinion, Mixo.
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Even if you prefer NPC quests, the spirit of an MMORPG is the interaction with other players. What the NPCs don't tell you in quests, you could learn from a player character immediately, up to a guided tour to the point of interest. So I wonder if even quest text could include subtle hints (maybe like "ask the other smiths who work in the forge from time to time"); but I already see that this may not be as consistent as expected.
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pps seems to be a big issue.
And once again I wonder, why do skill ranks not affect the gain of progression points (PP)?
Physical and mental stats do decrease the PP rewards from PvE interaction for sure,
but the effect is greatly reduced by the impact of such stats on training costs.
I have the feeling that a bit of tuning here can ease the beginners life greatly.
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Ugh...okay...a constructive post from me.
First off I get the impression this thread starts to mess kind of different situations, making it hard to understand what everyone means. For sure I shouldn't be taken as the ordinary new player. My first post was written for a char who couldn't do the tutorial (Yeah...okay..I could...just never thought of asking a GM to move me there. Probably I'm not the only one not thinking of this). And as a player I don't think I'm a good example for the usual PS player. I don't have the slightest interest in fighting, mining or crafting. Those tasks are far too boring for my taste. I know the locations of most NPCs and cities, don't get lost in the sewers and have a basic understanding of most game mechanics. All I want is a char that can interact with some others in game, have some basic equipment for RP purposes and enough money left to buy drinks and books. In the past it was pretty easy to achieve this...nowadays it isn't anymore. That's basically what my first post is about.
Now to the started discussion about making the game more welcoming for new players. Here I think it's important to make a difference between the ways a new char can start.
1. Complete new player with a new char starting in the tutorial.
The said 20 minutes seems to indicate that a lot of those don't even leave the tutorial. Now I have to get into assumptions as it's been a few years since I was such a player and PS was a lot different back then (like no tutorial at all and maybe every tenth rat dropped loot for 4 tria). What could makes so many people leave the game?
For the start the amount of text. No matter how you look at it, PS requires people to read. Most others games don't have such a requirement anymore. Not sure if the NPC voices help there at all as it still takes a lot of time just to figure out what the game wants from you (Also the first window you see in game is the hint window with a wall of text). And sorry, no solution suggestion for this...mainly because I don't care about people unwilling to spend time for reading in a RP game. If such people quite I think the tutorial served it's purpose. (Yeah, I know, I shouldn't forget the people on ezpc...they have a right to exists also ;). So lets follow my goal of making a constructive post. Get rid of any explanations about game mechanics in the tutorial, remove the tutorial on EZPC completely and only keep the parts on RP for laanx. Then make a video (better several on different topics) showing the use of the mechanics in action with voice comments and link them right next to the game download in the main page, put links to them in the topic of #planeshift and of course put an OOC hint in the first dialog of the remaining tutorial pointing to these videos.)
Okay...there is a player who actually reads game dialogs and still keeps on trying. Next obstacle...the interface. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot about the PS interface. But again..as a new player it's very, very clumsy and confusing. Setting up all basic shortcuts needed for fluid gameplay needs some experience first and takes a lot of time. Recent question from the help channel: "xxx asks: sorry XD uh brand new i got most things figured out just how do you sheathe weapons?". What should I answer there? My answer was: "Sorry, you can't do that easily with one command yet. The normal way is to just unequip them in the inventory <i>. If you start feeling a bit more comfortable in game you can make a shortcut doing that for you". Yeah...I took the easy way out there. Explaining how to create shortcuts in PS to a new player is not an easy task. Again videos about using the interface might help there. (And of course the best solution would be the ability to execute macros send by the server in a predefined, local sandbox in game to show the player how it is done). Oh..and having more default shortcuts right from the start won't help either...can't think of a general purpose shortcut handling all situations of "sheathing weapons". A good start to get into this problem is the help system update coming in the next version. Pictures within the help system are probably already very helpful (That is if people notice the ?-Icon in the main tool bar at all...this one maybe also needs more "promotion". How about a flashing red "?" for the first 10 hours of an account? ;) ).
Fine, the player was able to navigate through the tutorial until he/she faces the rat fighting challenge. And here we have a real problem. Create a kran, quick option Knight, and you slay the rat in 2 seconds...omg, how boring is that. Create a custom diaboli and you might end up with a char with 28 STR and can go to dinner while your char keeps on hitting the rat...even more boring. I know I'm in no position to judge on this part of PS as I think combat is among the most boring stuff in any mmorpg. But it seems everybody else sees this very different and combat is always among the first things people want to do in a mmorpg. And now your first encounter with the PS combat system turns out like this. Easy to understand why some people are not that fond of playing anymore afterwards. I know it's impossible to make those rats decent enemies for every starting char. So my suggestion would be to change the tutorial to make this flaw less obvious. Remove the rat fighting as necessary step for the tutorial. Then after the player finished the tutorial tell her/him she/he can be either teleported right away into the game or help the NPCs in the tutorial out a bit by cleaning the town of some rats. Of course the player should be able to end his rat hunt at any point and teleport to game.
Not enough "action". A lot people want a game like "Diablo". Of course they leave PS again if they couldn't kill something withing the first 5 minutes. A lot people don't care about complicated crafting systems, they want to be able to make a new sword with one click without having to deal with unreadable crafting books and several steps to get to their goal. While I think nothing should be done about this in game as PS has a different target audience I think it's the fault of the official webpage to lure those people in game in the first place. No, it's not a good idea to get as many people as possible, even if you already know they won't like the game. You will only get people ranting about PS on other webpages, keeping others from even trying the game. Make clear in the game description on the official page that this game aims for a complex crafting system, that combat is not the major part of the game and that it is still a pre-alpha version. And with "clear" I mean this should be written in bold letters in a huge font on the mainpage..not some subpage. It should be the first a person reads there. Oh..and while at it...make also clear it's no "generation-twitter" 144 letters game.
Graphic problems. Again...people are used to shiny graphics even in free games. If you run already into several graphic bugs in the tutorial that's a big turn off. And the graphics of PS can't be really called "up-to-date". So I think it's normal that people with recent hardware turn all graphic options to maximum. Give them some hints of functions causing problems. For example the PS launcher should have "Enable Bloom: [] (This option is still experimental and off by default)".
2. New player after the tutorial
The game is overwhelming at first. Sure, you have a generic map (I think) and the letter with hints about NPCs now...but you still have not the slightest clue what to do or where to go...even where you are. Come on...the first week I was able to get lost on the plaza looking for the entrance to the sewers. While I think this is not bad and it's part of the game to figure out your environment that's also something important to keep in mind if you say "But quests give hints about who to go next to now". Ahm, sorry, if the name is not Harnquist no new player will be able to make use of a name for the first weeks. If you don't believe me ask a new player what town he currently is in. A "Meet Levrus in the woods outside of Hydlaa" won't help any new player. Quest chains in general are a pretty bad idea for a game like PS in my view. Those are nice for games with a map, a marker pointing to the place to run next and a clear "storyline" one can follow, but not for an open (sandbox) game as PS. While I can see that some quests make only sense after doing some others first the current way of handling this is terrible. If you insist on those stupid chains make at least sure that NPCs don't say nothing if you haven't met the prerequisite for their quest. Make them say things like this..."I'm sorry, I can only entrust people with some education from Levrus with this task." or "I really appreciate your offer for help, but to finish this task you will need a Derghir bell." to give players a hint there is a quest available and even how to unlock it.
Next problem..tria and PPs. I make no real difference there as in the end both are the same for me. PPs are needed for training, tria are mostly needed for training..in fact I don't understand why having two different "currencies" for the same task. And before you say tria are needed for weapons and quests also please think about the percentage of tria you spend on items and compare it to the percentage you spend on training...so I guess we can just neglect the 1% on items. It was promised for years the crappy PPs system will be abandoned and I can't get why it was never done. Needing only to regulate tria to balance the system sounds a lot easier for me. But how to gather both? Most people probably know another mmorpg so the answer is clear..they will go and look for something to fight. As PS is a open world this is already a difficult task as there is no real indicator how strong monsters are (yes, I know...monsters closer to Hydlaa are meant to be weaker than the ones further away...tell that the Dlayos in the Arena). But lets say the player found some monsters suitable for her/him (maybe with the help of another player)...so she/he slays those monsters for hours and stacks up some loot and a few PPs (And yes...it are really not enough PPs for fighting...ahm...for any action in PS), what to do now. You have no clue where to find the trainer you want..and even less of a clue where to sell your loot. Suggestion: Put merchants for every kind of loot available from monsters in the arena and make it obvious they are merchantes even without the player having to talk to them. Put a typical merchant sign behind every NPC merchant showing what kind of merchant it is. For the trainers I have no real suggestion...except maybe keep on telling the player through the whole tutorial it's normal and wanted that he/she asks other players (Not just once...have every NPC in the tutorial say there is always a good chance to get more infos on this topic from other player characters). Now to the completely unbalanced PP rewards. Sorry, the new system that PPs rewards depend on your stats is...stupid and very, very broken. Some new players need minutes to kill a easy monster to get 1-3 PPs then...while "Aiwendil" can kill a Dlayo in a bit more than a minute with 17 Energy arrows under Drakku's Curse and get 1250 PPs!!! The problem is the same as with the 5 minute rats...such a system can't be done right for all chars. You can't prevent a char with all stats 200 and crystal way 150...even with Dakkru's curse it's still easy for such a char to slay some dlayos. I never got what was the big problem with the old "easy monsters gives 0.5 PPs while Dlayo gives 40 PPs" system. Of course it had some balance issues as well...but in my view those are easier to overcome than the much bigger ones in the current system. Suggestion: Sorry, I have none. As I doubt this stupid system will be abandoned again it can be only about fixing this system. And that is impossible in my view...you can't do it right for all chars. Sure, let's include skills in the PP calculation too...so that a char focusing in crafting in the past is unable to ever learn using a weapon afterwards. But as we talk about new chars only there...at least give them ten times the amount of PPs they get right now. The tria site is a bit better...though still too annoying to rely on it. Loot is far more common now and sells for a better price. Here I have to assume that it will get annoying for higher level chars only.
Another way to deal, at least with the tria problem is making people aware that fighting is not the only thing you can do in PS. I read so many comments tria are no problem as you can quickly gain some by mining, crafting, cooking..whatever. But people saying this forget what it means to be a new player. Mining needs knowledge of the mining locations and prices. Crafting needs some quests for the books and knowledge about the materials needed. These are no things any new player can do within the first few days..and that's the timespan we talk about here. So maybe it's worth thinking about some very easy crafting tasks that can be done without the books and only need material easily gathered close by. Of course these tasks shouldn't pay off that well...but enough for people just starting the game. (and keep in mind who suggested this...I just suggested the most boring task imaginable for new players ;))
3. Alts starting without a tutorial and any inventory
Give me quests without fighting, crafting, mining, cooking and running all over Yliakum back! There easily used to be 20 such quests in hydlaa right from the start in the past.
But in general I think this is less of a problem...was only one for me. When I left I gave away most of my items and money to remaining players...so had to deal with starting a new RP char without the possibility to just hand him 100K from my main char.
Okay..thinking about it, it might be still a big deal for people using game mechanics. Without the tutorial you also start without any PPs. So such chars, despite the fact they can get money from more developed chars already will still face the problem to get enough PPs to train some basic skills. Quests are not much of a help there as I pointed out most already need some basic skills. And keep in mind if you suggest quests needing to mine for some ores that this will already take away some earned PPs for the mining training...can't really see how to get enough PPs for the first few levels of combat training by quests. So these chars are kind of stuck with combat at the start...what can take a long time without any weapons (okay, can be again aquired from a more trained char) and skills.
Suggestion: Already mentioned it...but will repeat it again: Put all new chars in the tutorial, no matter if another char of that account already completed it. The tutorial can be left at any point now so I can't see why not give the player the choice if she/he wants to do it again.
I haven't done the current tutorial (please keep that in mind for everything I said here...I just assumed it didn't change that much in the last year) but in the past you ended up with enough PPs for two skills to train and more than 6K tria...that's a pretty nice start in my view.
pps seems to be a big issue. Perhaps a sliding scale that allows very undeveloped characters to gain extra pps than normal for a short time.
Assuming by "time" you really meant time. Not a good idea in my view...new players often do nothing that gets any PPs for hours while exploring the world. I would modify this suggestion to triple the first 1000" PPs or such.
Kikiris are easier to kill than rats with the sme amount of exp and all the kikiri loot sells for 60 trias, which is better than rats. Problem is the Kikiris are out in Oja. Maybe if we had some Kikiris hanging around outside of the Arena that might help some people then after Kikiris they could move to rats.
Having more "weak" monsters in Hydlaa indeed sounds like a good idea. But I still say it takes too long to earn tria and PPs. With the current max of 400 stats and 200 skills I really can't see why gaining PPs or tria should be limiting time factor for training. Only doing the practical training for a weapon skill above 100 will already take enough time to keep players busy PLing for months...not to mention the crafting skills.
@Mixo:
Yeah...that's why I wanted to make a difference between real new players and just new chars. I had a very different goal than you when starting this char. There was no need for me anymore to learn how to play PS and where to find what. The goal was to create a char I can use for a roleplay without spending days on boring quests or slaying monsters. The char probably won't be around for very long...so I see no point in dealing with all the boredom PS has to offer just to get to the fun part. But as you are a new player I'm well aware that you have different views on this...and it's good to see you having fun with PS.
@Bonifarzia
I phrased my concerns about your suggestion already above. In general I really think this system can't be made "fair" for everyone. But including skills in the calculation might really make it even more unfair for people concentration on crafting skills first and then only later get to combat skills...as they will receive far less PPs for the creatures they fight than if you do it the other way around.
/me looks at the length of the text and grins. "Missed me?"
Edit:typos
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Have a special class of character that cannot train, quest, gain pps in any way but whose skills and stats can be set at character creation. Have their labels be designated with a preceding * so that it is perfectly obvious what they are. These would be intended as temporary characters for role play purposes.
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I was told there are more than 25 quests available right from the start in Hydlaa (+Arena and close surrounding) that don't involve fighting or crafting. So I have to say I was wrong about the lack of quests. It's not as much as there used to be, but seems there are still enough around.
@bilbous: Yeah, similar things were suggested often already...and I fully would support something like this.
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probably because someone had his own bad day
http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libopenal-dev
debian squeeze which is current debian stable and debian is bloody stable has 1.12
I'm using up to date Debian testing (future Wheezy) which has libopenal1 1:1.13-4. PS works fine with it.
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I made many of those suggestions.
I went around one time and found something like 59 quests that could be done in the realm without prerequisite
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From a standard, purely combat orientated perspective:
I haven't played the updated game yet, so I don't know if this has changed, but as I have continually noted: The lack of aggressive danger from mobs is a joy-kill. If you don't have a sense of danger, there is no reason to progress.
Coupled with the lack of updated loot tables, means that you may kill a few things and realise they don't drop anything.
Or even the difficulty curve in the mobs. This one I'm not so sure about - I personally think that the fairly random difficulty of mob selection is good, say finding a clacker next to a rogue, but at the same time, hitting one thing and standing a chance and then hitting a similar thing with a prefix or suffix, and being wiped out in one hit, is a pain in the arse. There's a dissonance in the sudden and dramatic difficulty ramp that doesn't rub very well. I don't like the idea of 'newbie' areas, but I am noticing a certain lack of climate-specific mob types in places that may or may not make sense.
I think even this is forgiveable if it wasn't a case of 'Just test all the monsters, and ignore the ones you can't take on until you can'.
So bottom line: The AI needs implementation and fast.
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When the "tribes" are enabled, and aggressive ones will attack you for just passing by, you will enjoy them more.
I have seen a hunt for the Trepor herd at Shindrok's crater while the Warriors protected the Queen. Boy, that was a battle!
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When the "tribes" are enabled, and aggressive ones will attack you for just passing by, you will enjoy them more.
I have seen a hunt for the Trepor herd at Shindrok's crater while the Warriors protected the Queen. Boy, that was a battle!
That's pretty much what I'm waiting for. It sounds very interesting and I'd really like to see how it plays out. For now, the static nature of the mobs is immersion breaking.
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First forum post, I suppose this is something I can contribute to :)
I started a few weeks back, having initially looked for a relatively new MMORPG with large full PvP areas and no item shop or impossible amounts of grinding before you can participate in a skill-oriented PvP. Turns out there isn't one. What I found instead was PS, which according to one site was heavily under construction and lacked proper PvP. What lured me here was the words "community developed". I wasn't looking for the depth of RPing this game holds, having no experience in RPing, except say for the few D&D-sessions with my cousins some 10 years back. It's been much fun though, even as terrible as my RPing is.
A few suggestions for the tutorial then, based on my first touch with the game as I recall it.
1. First thing that causes some confusion are the controls. Of course you learn them pretty fast if you've played any RPG or FPS games, but I would've liked a "keyboard guide" -window to pop up right at the beginning of the tutorial (as soon as you start moving) so I don't have to spend time testing the buttons. You know, one of those with the keyboard buttons labeled with simple explanations of their function.
2. My char was the low strength high intel type. I think I had the initial strength of something like 50. The rats just wouldn't die. Replace the rats with dummies that don't hit back, make the rats easier to kill or just remove them. It would be nice if there were more weak creatures that a new player can kill with just a few hits in the tutorial area, this coming from a person who likes combat.
After the tutorial
This has probably been discussed before but: a map! A decent, large map hanging by the library wall, mentioned in the letter from a friend, showing the main cities and roads for the confused new player. What kind of a library doesn't have a map of the neighboring cities anyhow?! (I know there is one, but a more detailed one with landmarks that you can actually use to make travelling plans)
I'll be the first to admit that me and some of my fellow online gamer nerds are not always the most social kind, willing to go to the first person to ask for help if we're in trouble or lost. I didn't ask for help in PS for the first few days. I was polite and talked with people, especially other newcomers, but my intention was to learn everything by myself so I can approach others RPing as a fellow citizen rather than a lost puppy. Eventually I was approached by a person who offered to show me around, had me join a guild and boy did everything become easier.
I also hugely disagree with
Not enough "action". A lot people want a game like "Diablo". Of course they leave PS again if they couldn't kill something withing the first 5 minutes. A lot people don't care about complicated crafting systems, they want to be able to make a new sword with one click without having to deal with unreadable crafting books and several steps to get to their goal. While I think nothing should be done about this in game as PS has a different target audience I think it's the fault of the official webpage to lure those people in game in the first place.
I'm not sorry for being lured here. It is wrong to think that when a person is interested in hack 'n slashing, he is incapable of being just as interested in community type playing and complexity. I think it's nice that people with different motives are interested in PS and I think it serves to make the game even more diverse and complex, as long as everyone sticks to the rules.
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I'm a new player too (4-6 weeks?) and like the idea of providing some focused feedback. I'm a software developer in real life, and I know I have a hard time seeing my creations through the eyes of a new customer, so feedback from someone who is both new and an articulate observer is very valuable to me. I make this post in the hope that my observations will be helpful to you.
I also want to be clear that I'm probably not the ideal PlaneShift user, but think I rank fairly high on the list - not ideal because Role Play, while enjoyable and comfortable, is not my primary focus in playing a game. I favor games that include it, but combat, crafting, and exploration rank higher on my required features list.
But I am a long time role player - I've played and DMed RPGs for more than 20 years (current group playing semi weekly since 1996), and have even done a little amateur stage and film acting. I'm a professional software developer. I strongly believe in Open Source software, and one draw of PS was the hope that one day I might contribute. I have a strong imagination and have no problem working with something that isn't visually perfect or has glitches - my mind is perfectly able to fill in the details or shift to a different task.
So if you're still reading, I guess I'll do until the perfect players come along ;) - so here's my "new player" take on the game.
It's hard to get into, and has a lot of things that break immersion for me. Here are the big ones -
1) Lack of transparency - if I grew up in the world, I'd have an intuitive sense of "how things worked" - I'd know from stories and probably even experience roughly how much damage a club does, how race and profession affect average stats and skills, and what level of skill is required to accomplish a certain task. The fact that I have to rely on trial and error in this game, as opposed to looking up (or better yet, mouse over) is frustrating and disruptive. If I can get the information nearly effortlessly then my mind can ignore it and it was simply part of my character recalling something known but perhaps not familiar. If I have to go try to look it up, or set up experiments to test, then I am clearly interacting with a computer and not living in the world. This goes for all kinds of rules type information, from how character creation choices affect stats (you show the stats later, why force me to create and destroy a dozen lives to test how the alternatives affect them?) to skill ranks needed to perform certain tasks. And even combat - show (somewhere) what numbers make up the damage taken/done. Something like a combat log or information popup you can enable or disable that shows what my attack roll, strength, weapon type, skill, monster DR, etc. contributions are. I don't want them on all the time, just long enough to transfer the knowledge my character has to me.
2) No mental map - when I go to a new place, I immediately start building a mental map of where I am. Feedback from my senses combine to impress upon my memory paths, spacial relationship, and important features. Peripheral vision, ambient sound and smell, and signals from my inner ear are all blocked by the computer interface I experience Ylikum through, but are necessary for that map. I totally agree a map should not show areas I have not yet been, nor the position of moving enemies (or friends, though I wouldn't mind that for convenience, especially if they were in shouting distance), but it should show where I have been, and show notable features (buildings, NPCs, resources) as they were when I last saw them. When I have to tab out of PS and look at screen shots I've taken, or search the web for a map, it really breaks role play. You can't give the full interface of sound, smell, inner ear, etc., but you could give a map that my imagination would use as a proxy for the mental map my character would certainly build.
3) NPC stonewalling - The world is full of NPCs ... who won't talk to me. That's just frustrating. I'm fine with not handing out quests until I have a chance of doing them, but the NPC should at least tell me what he requires as a prerequisite and what he will give me ("I can help you gain status among the smiths, but Harnquist must train you to work with metals first"). I currently have to run around and talk to all the NPCs, do a quest, and run around to all of them again to see what opened up. This is an acceptable algorithm for a small set of NPCs, but it doesn't scale.
4)Unreasonable delays - so my character concept calls for someone self sufficient enough to make basic repairs. No problem, I'll train a few ranks in repair weapons and repair armor. I save some Tria, buy some kits, and start to practice. 247 seconds?! For one attempt?! Guess what - I tabbed out and checked my email, and got caught up in a discussion about something totally modern. I don't expect to build a sword in one click and 1 second delay, but this was worth a single PP and I couldn't play the game for 4 minutes (and it didn't even work, Lol!). I know you can't grow a fig in a day, but you've made plenty of other compromises to "reality" for the sake of play-ability, this is a prime candidate.
5) Forced social interaction - Maybe you really do want only extroverts and would like to exclude shy people. After all, extroverts are more likely to initiate role play. But in case that is unintentional, you should be aware that forcing people to walk up to strangers and ask for help is a barrier. In fact, even publicly admitting that I find it hard is hard, and I'm defensively shifting it to the 3rd person. OK, I admit, this one is painful to me personally, and I've deleted and re-written this one repeatedly. I've bared my soul in the interest of honest feedback for a project I really hope works, please don't come back with the trite and obvious "but it's a social game, you really should just meet people". It would be an easy thing to have NPCs provide the information you need, and leave "ask other players" as an encouraged but optional choice, not a requirement (where is iron ore?)
6) Weapon/armor repair - Maybe other skills are grindy, but these two really stand out for me - you are forced to fight rats endlessly, first with clubs, then with daggers, and finally with what you want for your character concept because you have to use simple weapons and damage and repair them before you work on more complex weapons, but then you are not able to do any damage with the complex weapon because you haven't trained so you repeat the cycle, still on stupid rats, seemingly forever. And the kits are hugely expensive for a new character, and do almost nothing, or have a high rate of failure. If you let a low repair skill repair any weapon but repair only a little damage, and use a part of the kit proportional to the points repaired then new players could pick a weapon that suited their character concept and work on getting better with that and repairing that. Even if they progress slowly, they are advancing the character they want, not one they are forced into by the rules mechanic.
Thanks for listening and thanks for putting together a really interesting game. I realize what a tremendous amount of work this is, all for love not money. My comments here are given with the hope that they will help you expand your audience, not to belittle your accomplishment in any way.
Sincerely
Tlok
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I'm a new player too (4-6 weeks?) and like the idea of providing some focused feedback. I'm a software developer in real life, and I know I have a hard time seeing my creations through the eyes of a new customer, so feedback from someone who is both new and an articulate observer is very valuable to me. I make this post in the hope that my observations will be helpful to you.
To me, knowing how the basics of how the mechanics should work in general also has the benefit of a better understanding of what can and can't be done, barring design choices that may have excluded the possibility, or disallows them due to major rewrites of functions and/or scripts.
1) Lack of transparency
2) No mental map
I agree here myself. However I don't know if certain changes will ever happen due to the philosophies behind the design choices.
3) NPC stonewalling
4)Unreasonable delays
5) Forced social interaction
6) Weapon/armor repair
The stonewalling does get annoying. Perhaps the responses from when a player manually enters a conversation can be triggered instead of the dreaded "NPC has no quest information." at the least. Those are still in place.
The forced social interaction can be a problem. I have no problem with those who want to RP 100% of the time, or even a fraction of the time. What has annoyed me with other RPGs is the OOC chat that has no relation to the game. Perhaps increase the chat channels, give some limited range and allow OOC talk there, and limit others to IC only. But that's neither here nor there on the forced interaction. I think the ideas suggested here and on the migration of EZPC into ZeroPing may help a little too.
Now the last one can be a bit annoying. I can have repair skills, but yet not be able to repair an item because it's beyond my skill... I have no Idea when I will be able to, how close I may be, etc. That can be discouraging. This hurts the in game economy too. Also, perhaps where skill books are used, a better organization would help, especially since nobody can really study their knowledge books off-line.
Related is the time involved. We have an in-game clock that runs faster than in RL by necessity, yet repairs are in RL time, and can feel like forever. Perhaps research into some lessened times for such things as repairs. Like Tlok, I'm not saying make everything 1 second to do, but assess the current time-to-repair algorithms in light of not boring new users away, or destroying immersion with their length.
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Repair times are based on how much damage you are fixing. Fixing a weapon that is in 1/300 condition will take a lot longer than fixing an item that is in 285/300 condition. I think the Min repair time is 20 seconds if you are fixing a small amount of damage. The higher your skill the shorter the repair times can be, with the exception that the min repair time is 20 seconds.
Note that Gossip is the universal OOC chat channel while main is the restricted distance IC channel. You can also create your own channel if you want a more limited group than Gossip channel or you can form a group if you just want to have a chat with a few friends.
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Improving the first hour of gameplay is extremely important. Our reports show that the majority of new players quit after 10-20 minutes. the tutorial has been created to have a smoother experience, but seems we are not yet there. Is the rat killing time the main issue together with difficulty to get tria? What other elements can make the first 20 minutes better?
The tutorial takes longer than 20 minutes. For me the NPC text could have been 40% faster and maybe a bit less detailed. As a new player of course there's rough edges but I see the potential in this game. If I had to pick on just one problem for me, as a warrior based player, I would say: Weapon/Armor Repair. These types of games get you hooked with forward momentum. You grind in whatever form most interests you and you get more and more resources. Mining can be fun, Making stuff can be fun, combat can be fun etc. etc. The fact that you can never repair more than 75% means that all weapons and armour are depreciating assets, even if you have the skill. Why does your repair kit cost 100 tria and get used up? Did the hammer and awl break? Buying things and having them deteriorate at a speed faster than you can replace them is neither fun nor realistic. In my opinion this system has to be drastically reworked so a new character does not have to struggle to become self-sustaining. No one told me not to train Axe because I wouldn't be able to have one.
There is a lot of truth here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38763.msg446959#msg446959
(P.S. sorry if this post sounds overly critical, I'm only sharing because I care :)
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The 75% repair from the skill description is not completely accurate. I have heard that with enough skill perfect repairs are possible but I am not sure at what level you get there. Still once you reach around rank 35 you can repair almost anything losing only a couple of points of max quality per repair. Repairing something 1/300 takes about 3 steps and quality drops may be somewhat higher than just 2 points.
There are lots of weapons that can be looted some magical and others not. The max quality of a looted weapon is 50/50 whether it is magical or not. You just need to find the right opponents.
I'm not sure why you cannot have an axe perhaps there is a strength requirement your character doesn't meet but the smallest axe cannot require too much strength. Perhaps you just haven't found the right merchant.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I can't have an axe because they deteriorate before I can make 1000 gold killing rats, which is how much it costs to buy a new axe. It's not sustainable for a new fighter character.
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By the way this thread is about bootstrapping brand new characters. I've never seen a rat drop any weapon let alone a magic one.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I can't have an axe because they deteriorate before I can make 1000 gold killing rats, which is how much it costs to buy a new axe. It's not sustainable for a new fighter character.
Unless there is an RP reason that keeps you from doing so, my advise would be to find a guild you feel comfortable with and join them. The generosity of the community is beyond all bounds in my opinion. There is no reason to do it all on your own unless you want to.
In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade. Only recently did my character leave her first 300q sabres on the altar stone in Gugrontid. They were about 180q at the time of donation. I cannot even estimate how many rogues were killed by those two blades; let alone everything leading to and including Tufusangs . My hope is someone is out there, still, killing rats with those two wonderful gifts of Chessire.
- Nova
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The tutorial takes longer than 20 minutes. For me the NPC text could have been 40% faster and maybe a bit less detailed.
I think the tutorial is that way because it's supposed to draw interest in roleplaying, and point out that people should roleplay. Than again it mostly promotes game mechanics and can be skipped. I think a large problem of PS is that it's completely torn by different interests. It depends a lot on the community, so all sides need to be heard. All developers have different goals, too. It's a nice example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Too long development time. Too vaguely defined goals.
Do I think that this kind of development will lead anywhere? Well yes, they will end up with something. It would look similar to what we're currently seeing, only contradicting itself a little more. I do not think PS can be turned into a well-running project that will lead to a complete, consistent, and fun game, if they keep the current overall development "strategy".
Do I think it could be rescued? That's tough to say. A lot of current process would need to be sacrificed.
There'd need to be set goals for the game, goals that will be followed as a group. Goals that are thought through very well. (In contrast, right now the goals more seem to be "Oh, it should allow for roleplay. And there should also be mechanics. And fun, it should be fun for the player." Those are more kindergarden kind of goals)
There'd need to be set rules. I've argued that before, and I won't step back. If you want to have a roleplay based server, it needs to have and enforce roleplay rules. Not just "Please choose a name that is good". Here is an example (http://www.siebenwind.de/cms/index.php?page=regeln) (German) how rules to a game actually focusing on roleplay should look like. For example, each character must have a multi-page backstory on creation and must be approved by a volunteering player. There also need to be clear rules for GMs. There needs to be a clear way for GMs to decide, which action to take when. Even if stepping down from the roleplay premise, I still think the half-baked existing rules don't suffice.
And lastly, there would need to be a lot more content. This might sound a little generic. What I mean is not only missing graphics or bugs that should be fixed, but also that there needs to be a reasonable setup that can be used, especially if the RP focus is supposed to stay. Take my example I linked above. The game is set on an island which is pretty much not part of the outside world. There is no info given about the island itself (apart from rumors that might be known outside). This is similar in PlaneShift: no information about the game world. Which is good. However, the website contains background story about the whole, huge continent surrounding that island. Countries, towns and landscapes are named and described, history for races is much more detailed; every job available in the game is described in detail, etc. There are no spoilers about the game's content; these are all background information needed to create a well-founded character. If PS is serious about roleplay, they should follow that path.
It would be easier to just step down and say "PS allows for roleplay, but is mainly a game where you can max your stats without a real reward, and then kill innocent animals until you're a millionaire while now and then somebody gets pissed of that you're not roleplaying," because this state is clearly the only one they can and want to enforce.
Edit: I think I got side-tracked a little.
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Guess my view is that it is not a black and white issue. One can have fun rp on a hunting trip with a group. My character has also rped shooting (or trying to) apples off the heads of the accommodating Bloodstone Brethren at a WAA Event. We used 1d6 rolls. The world is becoming decentralized. It is an aspect of the Info Age. In my opinion all styles of playing, so long as it is all IC, can be accommodated here. The Chat Windows mechanics and protocols could even accommodate a group of players that only wanted to adhere to a strict rule set. All others can even be ignored.
- Nova
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I think a large problem of PS is that it's completely torn by different interests. It depends a lot on the community, so all sides need to be heard. All developers have different goals, too. It's a nice example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Too long development time. Too vaguely defined goals.
Do I think that this kind of development will lead anywhere? Well yes, they will end up with something. It would look similar to what we're currently seeing, only contradicting itself a little more. I do not think PS can be turned into a well-running project that will lead to a complete, consistent, and fun game, if they keep the current overall development "strategy".
Do I think it could be rescued? That's tough to say. A lot of current process would need to be sacrificed.
There'd need to be set goals for the game, goals that will be followed as a group. Goals that are thought through very well. (In contrast, right now the goals more seem to be "Oh, it should allow for role-play. And there should also be mechanics. And fun, it should be fun for the player." Those are more kindergarten kind of goals)
Edit: I think I got side-tracked a little.
You probably have gotten a little side-tracked there. But this does lead me to some questions, and a continuance of the hijack of the thread.
What design documentation exists for PS?
- Pitch/Proposal?
- High Concept?
- Concept?
- Specifications?
- Design?
- Story?
- Art?
- Storyboards?
- Technical?
- UML diagrams?
- Test plans?
- Project Plans?
- External events?
- Risks?
- Script?
- Audio?
Which ones are open to all to examine? Which ones are available for potential help to examine? Are they all available once accepted for helping? Are these design documents being enforced? Do they need reviewed and updated?
I don't think it is too late to revive the game, but it may take some drastic rework in some areas of thought, mechanics, and code.
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Unless there is an RP reason that keeps you from doing so, my advise would be to find a guild you feel comfortable with and join them. The generosity of the community is beyond all bounds in my opinion. There is no reason to do it all on your own unless you want to.
I love the role-playing and community aspect of the game (that's why a MMORPG instead of a CRPG after all). But the truth is, nobody wants to walk around pan-handling for items and information. Even when you decide to ask for help, that absolutely does not mean you'll get it. I took the wrong gate to Ojaveda and got lost somewhere on the Bronze Road. I asked two PCs in a polite, in character, manner which direction led back to Hydlaa. The first initially responded to my greeting, but went back to mining and ignored my question. The other ignored my greeting entirely but threw some used leather armor at me, I guess as a gift. An hour of wandering around later it was maps on google (I assume bootleg, since PS won't provide any of their own) that led me back home.
By contrast, the most rewarding RP I get in other MMORPGs is hooking up with similarly levelled characters, questing and adventuring, contributing in a worthwhile and roughly equal fashion. This is the RP aspect that should be being pushed, rather than ignoring inequalities inherent in the game. Denying game information and making being a newbie inordinately hard in order to force newbies to be dependant on comparative gods that are strolling around is not a fun system, even if they are in a good mood and might actually grant help.
In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade.
Actually it takes years to wear through an axe with a wetstone or grinder, while in the game it takes about an hour. I really don't want to belabor this point though because it's not important. Everyone knows it's just a game and not everything is analogous to real life. The more important issue is how it affects gameplay. It simply is not fun on a fundamental level. Why not have stats, skills and spells atrophy everytime you use one, would that be fun? If you read around the forums you'll see everyone is saying the same thing; the repair weapons system as implemented is seriously flawed, especially on lower levels. In fact, it's so obvious that I can't tell if it's just ignorance of the situation, from changes that were introduced after everyone was levelled up, or if there's an aspect of wilful elitism going on here. Such as, "I had to go through it, so should you", or "well, real players don't enjoy combat for advancement so it doesn't matter".
I hope that is not an existing attitude because the effort deserves better. I mean the effort to create a fun, free community owned MMORPG.
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You probably have gotten a little side-tracked there. But this does lead me to some questions, and a continuance of the hijack of the thread.
No need to worry...this thread was hijacked as soon as Talad asked how to improve the first hour of gameplay. My initial post was never about new players at all.
I also hugely disagree with
Not enough "action". A lot people want a game like "Diablo". Of course they leave PS again if they couldn't kill something withing the first 5 minutes. A lot people don't care about complicated crafting systems, they want to be able to make a new sword with one click without having to deal with unreadable crafting books and several steps to get to their goal. While I think nothing should be done about this in game as PS has a different target audience I think it's the fault of the official webpage to lure those people in game in the first place.
I'm not sorry for being lured here. It is wrong to think that when a person is interested in hack 'n slashing, he is incapable of being just as interested in community type playing and complexity. I think it's nice that people with different motives are interested in PS and I think it serves to make the game even more diverse and complex, as long as everyone sticks to the rules.
The problem is not you. Good to see you enjoy the game. The (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/302709/For-godsakes-let-this-game-die-its-been-in-development-for-about-10-years.html) problem (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/275010/Horrible-game-stay-away.html) are (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/130433/DONT-PLAY-THIS-GAME.html) the (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/240385/PLANESHIFT-gm-abuse-.html) people (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/152582/Dont-waste-your-time.html) who (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/152582/Dont-waste-your-time.html) didn't (http://www.happypenguin.org/show?PlaneShift&showall=1#comments) know (http://www.desura.com/games/planeshift/reviews) what (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRHk5RwlCyk) to (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcKMiTKPK3o&feature=related) expect (http://www.francetudiant.com/videos/?v=S6v-sPejxdo) and (http://www.gamespot.com/planeshift/user-reviews/436661/platform/pc) so (http://mmohut.com/forums/comments/7379-planeshift-unknown-game.html) didn't (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/PlaneShift) enjoy it (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/mmo-roulette/planeshift.php).
@Derula: Come on, (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.0) don't make yourself unhappy. (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0) ;) Play for some days, enjoy meeting some old friends and then get as far away as possible again.
What design documentation exists for PS?
...
Which ones are open to all to examine? Which ones are available for potential help to examine? Are they all available once accepted for helping? Are these design documents being enforced? Do they need reviewed and updated?
ROFL...thanks, that one made my day.
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Note that Gossip is the universal OOC chat channel while main is the restricted distance IC channel. You can also create your own channel if you want a more limited group than Gossip channel or you can form a group if you just want to have a chat with a few friends.
That's good, I don't recall seeing that in the tutorial, but that's definitly an aid for assimilating new players - training wheels for RP.
Repair times are based on how much damage you are fixing. Fixing a weapon that is in 1/300 condition will take a lot longer than fixing an item that is in 285/300 condition. I think the Min repair time is 20 seconds if you are fixing a small amount of damage. The higher your skill the shorter the repair times can be, with the exception that the min repair time is 20 seconds.
The problem isn't the min time, and it isn't the time at max skill, it's the max time at min skill. Mechanincs that work at the top of the scale might fail miserably at the low end, which I maintain is the problem here. In fact, the whole repair mechanic, not just the times, is very unfriendly to new characters, and is a critical part of a new player's experience for a large segment of new players (melees).
I love the role-playing and community aspect of the game (that's why a MMORPG instead of a CRPG after all). But the truth is, nobody wants to walk around pan-handling for items and information.
I whole heartedly agree with pretty much every word of Thalaric's post - well said and dead on. But this line in particular. Even if everyone was stellar, which they certainly are not, what fun is there in getting somebody else to play the game for me? Give me enough clues and resources in game to figure it out on my own, and lighten up on the disclosure restrictions until those in-game resources are fully up to the task.
In real life if you beat hundreds upon hundreds of bone bearing mammals eventually your axe would need replacement, There are only so many sharpenings on a blade.
If by "hunders and hundreds of bone bearing mammals" you mean a dozen or two rats, then maybe the current settings are realistic. Otherwise, not so much so.
And I have a sad anecdote about a player I tried to recruit to the game, but I think it's slightly more relevant to this post so I'll leave it as a reply there
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=38763.msg446959#msg446959
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Perhaps what needs adjustment is not how long it takes to learn repair but how quickly weapons wear down. This has certainly become an issue, for my character, since taking up the bow.
- Nova
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What design documentation exists for PS?
...
Which ones are open to all to examine? Which ones are available for potential help to examine? Are they all available once accepted for helping? Are these design documents being enforced? Do they need reviewed and updated?
ROFL...thanks, that one made my day.
THAT'S what I was afraid of... Nothing that nails down what PS is really supposed to be, or how it plans on getting there. Makes it more susceptible to scope creep and everything else that will slow down or kill a project.
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hey hey hey, Aiwendil, Talad didn't hijack your thread, I did. Your thread on starting a char in PS reminded me of starting a char on PS and the difference between when I first started a char (new player, mid-2008) and starting a char in the past 6 months after giving my main the axe.
Not realizing that the post was actually a "bitter oldbie creates a new char and finds new reasons for old complaints," i.e. not meant to be helpful, interesting, or illuminating for anyone, I posted my opinion which actually closely matched Aiwendil's.
The similarities stop there. I love the game. I have two major global issues with it, too few people play it, and there is a small group of seriously nasty people. Just mean, to noobs and to oldbie-ish ones. The second issue is nothing anyone can help with, until those people disappear. But the first issue can be dealt with. I was extremely glad for Talad's post in this thread. I have suggestions, not a "fantastic unrealistic wish list" for grabbing new players, but ideas about why we lost the numbers that we did.
I'll start a new thread for it, since the owner of this thread is a pill. But I do like the comments here, they are illuminating. There are the people like me who really wish to help improve the game - Tlok especially - want to play, want to spend time here, and do not and have taken the time to post reasons. There are crusty old players - some of whom I like very much - who shoot down any complaints because the system works just fine for them. The newbs aren't playing right. So they give suggestions, meant well. But these oldbies stagnate the game like crazy. They are happy, but the numbers don't lie. There are not enough people in the game.
Ciao thread.
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....after giving my main the axe.
WUT!!?? Nina got the axe! NUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuoooooooooooooooooooo
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lolo Dannae, you do know that I think you are adorable right??? I read the DoX guild chat you posted, the flower chat??? Good talad girl, you crack me up....Ixi on the floor, slain just slain...ah, je vous adore...and I miss Nina like crazy, she jumped off the Eagle, at the fortress, totally distraught, one day I will write about it...was a disaster, IC and irl...anyway, more later, will start the new thread on personal opinions for why players quit after 20 minutes playing as Talad said... :love: :love: :love: