PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Venalan on October 02, 2012, 05:13:05 am

Title: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on October 02, 2012, 05:13:05 am
Welcome to the ‘We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread’.

So something we will be doing over the next few months in between the other things we're working on is remaking the tutorial quests, if you haven’t done it you can see what you do here Tutorial_Walk_Through (http://194.116.72.94/pswiki/index.php?title=Tutorial_Walk_Through).

The reason for this is that it is the first taste that players get of the game and it is boring and uninteresting.

So what’s my overall plan?

Remove as much of the mechanics as I can from quests. You don’t need to tell players how to move, or how to interact with things in so much detail in the quests. It’s obvious and players aren’t that stupid. This means i will make the  quests me an introduction to the settings of PlaneShift and a real introduction to the game and where you have found yourself. Mechanics will be mixed in where fitting and the rest of it will be in on screen pop up messages triggered either by the end of the quest, or my walking certain points on the ground and then of course by a new and I hope better help file.

I will be including race specific and maybe gender specific responses.

I will be adding many more items to the tutorial, full sets of baking equipment, full sets of crafting equipment and other stalls with items on.. this is just to make the place more ‘alive’ and to give players more to go and click on.

I will be using proximity triggers so, for example, if you are sent to fight rats a popup will tell you about all the combat options.

We have discussed making the tutorial freely accessible so you can come and go and means we can link things the NPCs tell you to quests you do outside of the tutorial and you can be sent back in future quests (THIS IS TENTATIVE at best but an idea).


So the new overview...

Quest 1: Abelia, the baker is paid to welcome people to Hydlaa, either visitors or those feeling stone labyrinth invasions with a welcome gift of a selection of food stuffs.

What do you learn;
Where you are? – Ylakium, the 7 levels, the dome, Hydlaa.
Where you came from, the fact your race entered though a portal or was made by the gods and how long ago it was.
Who’s in control, the Octarchy and basic government set up rules and laws.

Other: some spattering of skills you can do and gives you a selection of food stuffs to get started.

Ends with her giving you a small snack for Neave, and off you go to her.

Onscreen popup – information about the basic windows and what they are, and text to point you to the help file for more detailed info.


Quest 2: Neave, the black smith makes weapons for the local garrison and teaches you about the crafting side of PS.

You give her the lunch and get talking
You learn about the skills, the trainers, who does what, about the other cites and trade routes.
You find out she is a crafter and gives you a repaired weapon that Ibhaar asks for.

Onscreen popup – Information about using containers and crafting mechanics and points you to the help file.



Quest 3: Ibhaar, the annoyed warrior sent to look after the hydlaa welcome post, teaches you about all the combat in PS.

You give the blade to Ibhaar and you learn about who he is.
You learn about combat and weapon and armor types, good places to train and what you should start killing
That he use to be station the bronze doors and that they protect from what is found in the stone lybrinth.
He offers you one of his old blades and you get to pick one, he then says there have been some rats about that really annoy him and sends you off to kill one if you want with your new weapon.
He also tells you about the different styles of combat Weapons Vs Magic and mutters some not very flattering things about Orphia which then means off you go to her.
If you kill a rat and return to him you will have the option of giving him the items you have looted for a  small reward.

Onscreen popup – information about the combat sections and stances and send you to the help file for more detailed info.


Quest 4: Orphia, the mage sent to help the injured new comers to Hydlaa and teaches you about magic and the ways.

You start by saying what Ibhaar said about her, and she laughs and just says it’s because he is stuck here and he would like to be off at the bronze doors.

She teaches you the basics about magic and the different Ways and Circles and asks what you think sounds most interesting. You answer and she then gives you a glyph for that way. She will also mention that you should start off by seeing Levrus if you are interested in following magic.

Onscreen popup – details about using glyphs and research spells and sends you to the help file for more details.

Quest 5: Xargon, the government official who looks after the welcome post.

He will officially welcome you to Hydlaa, and tell you in more details about what you can find and do, temple, tavern, smithy, arena, plaza, library etc...

Maybe give you a few items. ‘Letter from a friend’ or something equivalent.

You then get sent to Xenak,

Quest 6 a/b.

A, will be the ‘I wana skip the tutorial option’ but will say something alongs the lines of ‘Are you sure you want to enter Hydlaa without talking the the welcome staff, they have many things to give you and lots to tell you about living in Hydlaa that will make you start here much easier.’

B, Will be the ‘I have completed the tutorial option’ when he welcomes you to Hydlaa and off you go to play.


What you should bear in mind is that once I’m done writing all this up and as I've tried to indicate is that there will be a story of sorts that guides you from one NPC to the next, like it is now but will be settings heavy and not so much mechanic info. It will be made very clear many many times that the help file is where you need to go for details on the mechanics. These quests will also be covered in basic settings info, everything that I think the player should know and that I can get in and makes sense to say by the NPC.

Finally this is just a draft of what I am planning, what I would like to hear about is suggestions about how to make the tutorial more fun/better/interesting.

Do you like you the suggested path between npcs?
Would you do it differently?
Would you add more and make it really complex?
Would you like to see a simple intro to the game that pulls players in to they make it though the gate?
Do you love it the way it is and hope I don’t touch it at all?
Are there settings you think are vital to cover that I have explicitly mentioned?
Are there some items that a player should be given to make the first few hours of game player easier (they will get a weapon and glyph and lots of items of food)?
How long do you think it should take to complete all five quests?
Would more stalls and 'shops' make it looks more alive and interesting?
What about adding a mount so players can see we have them?
What props would help draw someone into the game?
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Jilata on October 02, 2012, 07:57:52 am
One thing which annoyed me in the current tutorial and I'd like to vanish:

The NPCs talk for too long.

Quest and learning how to do it is fine, but if they start talking for hours (I think you need more than 10 minutes for the tutorial right now), you get bored. Simple as that. You don't want to skip it because it might prove to be needed later on, but it just takes too long. So the quests should be shortened as much as possible.

About the rest, I'll be thinking about it.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on October 02, 2012, 08:25:02 am
It's good to see that there are people listening to Aiwendil, at least to the meaningful parts between the emotional rants. ;D

And it's good to see that the game supports the features needed to be flexible in designing an interesting tutorial.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Pakarro on October 02, 2012, 09:17:14 am
This is very good news!

And, I believe that a tutorial does not have to be short if it is interesting. When there is enough action and free room for the player, it will work nicely. I like the storyline  :thumbup:

One thing, please (this is also necessary throughout all quests.): Sometimes the breaks to read the text are incredibly long. Maybe some keypress (esc?) to continue talking without waiting for hours would be useful...

Thank you!
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on October 02, 2012, 10:14:19 am
Quote from: LigH on October 02, 2012, 08:25:02 am
It's good to see that there are people listening to Aiwendil, at least to the meaningful parts between the emotional rants. ;D

I want to say that his latest rant had nothing todo with prompting me to post this about redoing the tutorial we have all known its been bad for ages. I've had this planned for ages and it got to the point I could sit and do bits of it so wanted player feed back and suggestions before getting tofar in to make sure what I think would make it fun and interesting others agree with.

Edit; re the talking lots... It's talking stuff atm thats boring. There will probably be as much in my version, I just want it to be interesting.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eonwind on October 02, 2012, 10:51:42 am
Venalan I think is a good idea to give out a starting pack for new players (at the tutorial end). The starting pack could be chosen by players, an example:

- I want to be a warrior starting pack: two pieces of armor and a couple of weapons, some tria, a few potions
- I want to be a mage starting pack: 2 basic glyphs, some tria, a few mana and health potions, a couple of light armour pieces and one light weapon
- I want to be hunter: 2 pieces of armour, one light weapon, one bow, 65+65 arrows, some tria a few potions
- I want to be a crafter/... : some tool (rock pick, hammer, ...), some basic material, like a few ores, some tria, a few potions

those are just drafts of course :)

What about adding a mount so players can see we have them? <-- good idea! :)

One last thing: I would allow to play the tutorial even to new char (they can always skip it with few click and it seems a good area to setup a char description before lending in game). Even char not meant to be trained can enjoy more tria, being able to buy the appropriate outfit to show in game. The second reason to enable this is more people will play the tutorial the more we'll get feedback and bugs and the chance to improve it even further.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Mordaan on October 02, 2012, 04:03:42 pm
Quote
Quest 1: Abelia
Other: some spattering of skills you can do and gives you a selection of food stuffs to get started.

Have her start off by giving you a free beer.  Now that will give a nice first impression.   :D

Seriously, and I am speaking about making a good first impression here, we could put Abelia behind a table (maybe just a crafting prep table will do), with some additional items on it like mugs, some bread, or other food items.  And though this is a map issue, I'd really like to see some signage in the tutorial.  Just a nice banner above Abelia saying "Welcome", or a sign clearly saying "Hydlaa Orientation Center"...or something.  It would really give players the sense they are being welcomed and there is an IC purpose for them being there.

One thing I think we can ALL agree upon is the tutorial needs some work.  It has been an idea floating around for a few months and I'm glad to see it get going.  Venalan:  :thumbup:

And this is also a good opportunity to point out that if you want to help out, you can always join the settings team.   :)
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on October 02, 2012, 04:09:16 pm
Thinking of the quite famous "good hospitality traditions" known from slavian (eastern-european)  countries, offering bread and salt? And I bet there are similar traditions in many other countries all around the world.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Aiwendil on October 02, 2012, 09:38:54 pm
Quote from: LigH on October 02, 2012, 08:25:02 am
It's good to see that there are people listening to Aiwendil, at least to the meaningful parts between the emotional rants. ;D
Quote from: Venalan on October 02, 2012, 10:14:19 am
I want to say that his latest rant had nothing todo ...
*sighs* "Emotional"? You have seen the arguments with Xillix Ligh...those were emotional! Or the complaining about Janner...but this didn't have much emotion at all. The only emotion I showed there was calling Talad an idiot and I still stand by that. But even worse...the same old story always again. If you write something not praising PS but pointing out some problems it's immediately a "rant". Did anyone of you ever hear of "criticism". No wonder the game doesn't really improve if nobody can write about it's weak points.

But lets get back on topic:
I got not much to say about the planned story linking the tutorial NPC..I just don't care. It's nice to see that more settings infos are planned in the tutorial but in general I think that's just a minor point.

But on the technical side I have some suggestions to make:

- Pop-up windows are...not always very helpful. Okay, not true..they can be always helpful, but that means the player has to read them. Please just think about it...how many games did you play where you read every single pop-up window in a tutorial? I can only speak from my own experience and that's that I at best skim through the first few lines of a tutorial pop-up and see if it's important. If I think it's not I pretty quickly close it as I want to play this new game and not read pop-ups. So, first suggestion, make sure you put the really important stuff in the first 4 lines of a pop-up. And second suggestion, which is even more important, add the text of all pop-ups to the in-game help as well so that players can look it up later again and doesn't have to read it right then (as right now it is the only possibility to read pop-ups). Also a "reset" button for pop-ups could be an idea..something that allows the "You received some fall damage"-pop-up to show up a second time for example. Or like all other games some buttons to scroll back to previous pop-ups.

- Others already brought it up but it's very important...make it possible to skip the waiting time for NPC text. I'm no native English speaker but even I had to wait all the time for the NPC to continue and it's damn annoying.

- About the idea to make tutorial quests take you outside the tutorial area? Ahm...seriously? While the idea sounds nice I see a huge downside with it. The quests in PS already now are mostly running around and now you want to make it like that right from the start? A tutorial should be as short as possible and not included minutes of only running. In general I would say the "forced" tutorial should take a max of 15 minutes (included NPC text time and running between them). Better add a lot of optional tutorials that can be done if the player wants (And here it would be nice again if a player could head back to the tutorial area much later again)

- Be careful with pop-up and quest conditions. Just meaning that mining for example is something very basic every player will probably face at some point. So if triggers that change the tutorial according to the players skills are introduced make sure that even those players that don't meet the requirements can at least listen to the lesson if they want. No "forced" skipping of tutorial parts for players that have no mining skills.

- Be careful to not leave out the mechanics too much. While I agree that stuff like movement doesn't have to be explained PS has some features that for sure need explaining. Shortcuts and chat commands for example. Almost all other mmorpgs have them as well...but you can play those games for months without ever needing them. Try playing PS for 2 hours without a chat command or self defined shortcut. ;)

- If you add items to the map...have someone with a very low end computer test it first.

- Pop-ups again: Only text is boring...add images to them. Far better to have an "actual" mouth icon when explaining how to talk to NPCs than only describing it in text. PS has the ability to included icons in certain text widgets so get someone to change the pop-up widget to allow this as well.

- While we talk about icons/images. It is possible already right now for the settings team to include images in books. Make use of this and give the player a book describing the most common icons they face in PS and maybe some items. You can even make screenshots of certain actions and put them in books.

- Get a "demo-mode". Something where the client executes macros send by the server so that you can make a short demo on how to drag some ore in the furnace slots rather than just describe it in words.

- Get rid of the NPC voices. It's a "shiny" feature, yes...but it makes quick adjustments to the tutorial impossible. Without them it would be far less of a problem to just add a new part to the tutorial explaining the use of music sheets when those are released in game. NPC voices are something that can be done much later...when there are far less changes needed to quests and tutorial.


It's nice to see Venalan's motivation for this but at the moment I fear he still lacks the tools to make a really good tutorial. In my view those should be coded first so that a tutorial rewrite isn't necessary too soon again. On the other hand everything will be an improvement to the tutorial at the moment so maybe an intermediate step to a fully working tutorial isn't that bad at all.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Talad on October 03, 2012, 01:26:20 am
Remember to review this as base for new tutorial remake:
http://194.116.72.94/pswiki/index.php?title=Tutorial_Improvement_Project
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on October 03, 2012, 05:10:44 am
@Aiwendil, i have a few responses for you.

Pop ups will be used to explain certain basics of the game but they are not very good at allowing lots of detail. I think I'll head them up with **READ IF YOU WANT TO LEARN ABOUT <TOPIC>** then if the player wants to read or not they know what they will be missing. Everything in the pop ups will also be included in a edit of the help file i will be making to match the tutorial once it is done.

Tutorial quests will be 100% limited to the tutorial, what i was making reference too was the possibility that you could revisit the tutorial at a later point for other quests, no real reason in not reusing this area later in the game. Bit of a waste if we don't reuse it.

The only thing like skill quest locks I've planed are race specific responses in reference to details like where they come from, how long they have been in Ylakium etc...

In regards to voices they will be gone from the tutorial as it might well evolve later and there is no point in making  anything so fixed as a dialog line until the tutorial is so complete it would be not worth making any further changes.

@ Talad

I've used that page a basis of my planning the new tutorial, npc settings, quest content, settings info to be given, additional props and other bits a pieces. There is however one impression i got from that page which I'm not going to develop in my remake for now.

This bit can be summed up with this line "The area has been reassigned to be (or outright created as) the regional assessment center for the Hydlaa region. The situation is critical, new waves of invasions coming from the Labyrinths".

With the game as it stands, there are no invasions from the stone labyrinths or anything even close to it. If you ignore that fact then there are also no stone labyrinth map(s) for you to explore and following on from that there aren't even any physical bronze door(s) for you to know where the entrances are.... So if we make the tutorial really heavy in regards to invasions, and the player(s) get into the game wanting to know about it and all the current players and npcs have nothing to say to you about it or any idea what these 'new waves of invasions' you are talking about are, that for me would a terrible way to introduce the game.

Because of this i have decided to scale it back, the stone labyrinth and all that stuff will be mentioned but not as a big overview for the tutorial. Once I've done this rework to add in a heavier reference to the labyrinth once the real in game world is more pointed in that direction would be easy.

------

As an end comment, all the talking with people I've done in game and on IRC about this new design every comment has been positive and ill be using a number of little things people have mentioned. So please, if anyone has ideas about interesting little things i should say or let people know from NPCs or add to the tutorial let me know here and I'll let you know if I'll steal your idea or not.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on October 03, 2012, 07:49:41 am
Aiwendil, you know the german proverb: "The tone makes the music". You already know that posts are probably deleted if they attack the people making the game, not the game as such. No matter how many people sometimes share your opinion about one or another staff member, the team doesn't want to read it publicly. Therefore, constructive criticizm has a better chance to survive if it avoids mentioning names... and that's the only piece I mean by "emotional rant". I won't deny that I ever had those too.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: bloodedIrishman on October 03, 2012, 08:27:53 am
Can players learn to duel in the tutorial? That would be fun ;D
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Talad on October 03, 2012, 09:46:03 am
Quote from: Venalan on October 03, 2012, 05:10:44 am
I've used that page a basis of my planning the new tutorial, npc settings, quest content, settings info to be given, additional props and other bits a pieces.
Perfect.

Quote from: Venalan on October 03, 2012, 05:10:44 am
With the game as it stands, there are no invasions from the stone labyrinths or anything even close to it.
Well, we are pretty close to that, and I don't want to redo the tutorial a 3rd time anytime soon. Considering the effort required, it's better to put in the proper content right now. Let's discuss it internally.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Aiwendil on October 03, 2012, 01:08:59 pm
@LigH: Posts get deleted for everything the team doesn't like. The last post of me that was deleted was a well-meant advice for a new player. The only thing that could remotely resemble an attack on another person in that one was some teasing of Kull. Also the posts you called "rants" didn't really include any names...so my point stands: They are called rants because they criticize PS.

Back on topic...
I think Venalan made a great move by starting this public discussion about his plans. So now please don't take a step back again and have everything overruled by some internal discussions the community will never learn about.

Edit:
Btw, this form has a whole board (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?board=62.0) for discussions like this...sadly it's never used.
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Vakachehk on October 04, 2012, 05:46:05 am
I'm really glad this is happening!
Well here's my opinion on the tutorial...

The layout or look of the tutorial is a bit annoying (yes I'm talking about the updated map, it is nicer than the old one). I think having everyone inside a shop or stall would look and work much better. Starting in an outdoor bakery for Abelia, then going to a blacksmith shop for Neave and then maybe for Ibhaar a little arena or you have to go into his basement of his house and kill some rats, get creative. At the moment it seems to take you round in circles, seems small, the buildings seem pointless, feels completely OOC and not like you are actually in a part of Hydlaa the largest city.

All the quests you do should be much more brief, especially Xargon (the Klyros and the last person to talk to) is completely a pain, so frustrating. He completely blabbers on and on and on. (Well the last time I did the tutorial he did.) I think his part needs to be at least halved. Much much much more brief!! Overall the five quests should take around 20-30 minutes.

Make it so that the rats in the tutorial take about 15-20 seconds to kill, taking no health points from the character. All rats in the tutorial drop hides, so you don't have to kill heaps till you finally get one to give to Ibhaar.

Be able to skip parts you aren't interested in, I certainly wouldn't be interested in cooking/baking or magic (I'd much rather read a pop-up at a later stage or get some help from a friend on how to purify a glyph).
Here's an example, Abelia sends you to Neave, Neave asks you if you are interested in learning how to use a furnace, if you say "No I'm not interested" maybe the help tab (off the main toolbar) flashes once or twice and a little pop up saying you can learn how to use a furnace at anytime/later stage here.
Maybe it's a little town center with various shops you can enter and choose to do quests with the vendor inside instead of it being a set of quest chains and the map being a little maze.

On a slightly off topic point.
Attacks from the Stone Labrynths seems a fair external 'current setting' or reasoning for the tutorial, how about there being internal issues as well, like the Ojaveda Plague being more widespread in the dome or something else as well to give reasoning for the lack of access to most parts of the dome. If you don't want that at least extend the idea of the Ojaveda Plague to be very obvious in Ojaveda - have guards by blocked gates automatically telling you it's closed off due to the plague, have barricades against the gates to stop people trying to get through, add some info about it in quests.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Chessire on October 04, 2012, 12:17:49 pm
To put my little stone here, something that isn't explained much and confuses the new players is how to train skills. Many don't get the concept or the blue line in the exp bar filling with training bought from npcs and then the red part filling by practicing the skill, at least not right away. It would be good if the tutorial offered some experience and a few trias and asked the player to purchase some skill from a trainer (for ex swords or daggers) and then train it from rank 0 to 1.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: verden on October 04, 2012, 04:15:48 pm
No matter what direction or details are chosen for the tutorial, the first and foremost thing to keep in mind is that less is more.

Whatever is written needs to be edited for clarity. Forget making the NPCs do cute things during the tutorial. Don't write two sentences where one sentence will do. Chop all extra words that are redundant in a paragraph. Make it as concise as possible. Wall text is not good.

Also allow for spacing between paragraphs in the chat window. If possible, allow for kerning and tracking between characters, or effects on the text itself. The essential problem with the chat window for people who's eyes are not used to it is that it all runs together, better spacing and presentation of chat text will cause dramatic improvement non-obvious ways.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on October 04, 2012, 07:34:06 pm
@Vakachehk

First, sounds like your first comment would require new art, and that just isn't possible. But the design of the tutorial will be more interesting when I'm done.

In regards to rats if we ask players to kill them they will be easy for players to kill, I hope atleast.

With skipping parts its previously been mentioned to me and I'm thinking of adding skipping of parts, but the current text and the text I'm writting is completely different and I want it to be interesting enough that reading it all is interesting.

@chessire

For explanations of training there will be clear explanations that's player's are targeted to in the help file. And there will be progression points and possibly tria in everyone's pocket when they get into hydlaa.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Sarva on October 04, 2012, 09:08:57 pm
It would be nice if the new players could get a general map of the dome level. Maybe something like what jaycol has done that gives you a general idea where each of the cities/outposts are with maybe some os the mine or resource locations. The whole idea of being lost or not having aclue where you are suppose to go is frustrating to new players.

Maybe put a bulletin board in the tutorial where GMs can lock messages that might be of interest to new players like maybe guild who are recruiting, notice about some of the fixed events like the monthly markets etc.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eonwind on October 05, 2012, 11:05:20 am
Quote from: Sarva on October 04, 2012, 09:08:57 pm
It would be nice if the new players could get a general map of the dome level. Maybe something like what jaycol has done that gives you a general idea where each of the cities/outposts are with maybe some os the mine or resource locations. The whole idea of being lost or not having aclue where you are suppose to go is frustrating to new players.

Maybe put a bulletin board in the tutorial where GMs can lock messages that might be of interest to new players like maybe guild who are recruiting, notice about some of the fixed events like the monthly markets etc.

I agree about showing at least two mines, one iron and one coal mine. This little "spoiler" will get the new players on the right track.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Sarko on October 05, 2012, 12:10:32 pm
What about adding a iron mine in the tutorial  ?
in order to teach them how to dig
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Jilata on October 05, 2012, 01:56:49 pm
Quote from: Sarko on October 05, 2012, 12:10:32 pm
What about adding a iron mine in the tutorial  ?
in order to teach them how to dig

But then every new player needs to have the skill "mining" on at least level 1. Or they need an opportunity to train the skill in the tutorial. Otherwise those with the skill at 0 can't mine there.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on October 05, 2012, 03:10:21 pm
Well, smelting Iron Ore to Molten Iron was possible in the tutorial, so it seems there is an exception for the required skills. Still, they need to be told to learn it before using it...
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: novacadian on October 05, 2012, 05:35:26 pm
Quote from: Chessire on October 04, 2012, 12:17:49 pm
It would be good if the tutorial offered some experience and a few trias and asked the player to purchase some skill from a trainer (for ex swords or daggers) and then train it from rank 0 to 1.

Good idea, Chessire. My suggestion would be to not use a combat skill for the purchase. One of my characters has taken the high road of not killing anything. This has been a challenge enough in game. To face it in the tutorial would be doubly cruel for other such characters.

- Nova
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on October 05, 2012, 07:08:50 pm
@eonwind

We could add a map but we would need someone to make one, easier might be to just add iron next to levrus and tell the player they can mine there.

@sarco
Minning is not something you need to teach, hold a rick pick and click dig or /dig. Telling them about how you can only mine in certain spots need explaining.

@jilata

Every skill you will need to use in the tutorial will be given to the player if they don't start with it.at least level one

@novacadian

Many different trainers can be set in the tutorial, but if we do suggest they train we can give a selection based on the NPC.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Mordaan on October 05, 2012, 09:25:10 pm
Quote from: Venalan on October 04, 2012, 07:34:06 pm
In regards to rats if we ask players to kill them they will be easy for players to kill, I hope atleast.

We can have the NPC accept any rat part rather than just hides.  Then the only way a player would fail after killing one rat is if they happen to loot nothing, and with the latest loot rules being what they are is much less likely.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Cairn on October 06, 2012, 05:36:46 am
/offthe wall:

live tutorial! Recruit players to help out in the tutorial every once in a while, through roleplay!
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eardstapa on October 06, 2012, 05:52:02 am
Thanks, Venalan, this is very welcome news!

Being boring didn't help the existing tutorial meet the goals one wants to establish at the start of such a project. Namely, that a new player should emerge from the tutorial with
. basic knowledge of the mechanics (movement and interaction)
. basic knowledge of the game world (settings)
Why? >> in order to enjoy playing a character that lives, works and interacts in such a world.

So, I wonder, can we see the entire tutorial encourage roleplay more? To me this means visuals, NPC dialogue and mechanics information working together in fun ways to help a player start thinking through and "being" his/her new character:

. Visuals: yes to background displays of craftable and buyable items relevant to each NPC, and perhaps Ibhaar's rats could be accompanied by a small menagerie of more fun, interesting creatures; yes to pets and mounts; yes to a busier, friendlier, less maze-like layout

. NPCs: yes to a welcome beer and snack :)
Since NPC dialogue will use story to relate settings, I wonder if the main institutions (these are just suggestions: government - Abelia?, guards and Stone Labyrinths - Ibhaar?, religions and magic, including Death Realm - Orphia?, merchants and professions, not only blacksmithing - Neave?, artists and scientists - ?) could all get a very brief mention in the tutorial, perhaps with Xenak at the end directing you to the starting NPC of various faction quests that tell you more, in game proper. If a map is too hard to make, a book/scroll directory might work, and teaching people to read signposts ;)

. On the mechanics side, could we add information about editable/editing descriptions.
Also, with the "golden man" icon, it may be possible, like Vakachehk suggested, to skip what your character is not interested in or leave it to be learnt in game proper.

. Lastly, the starting pack Eonwind suggested for different character choices: this idea helps get a character get started on a roleplayable path. If players will already have picked up some rewards from the NPCs along the way, perhaps the pack could be as simple as a buff item or raw materials for crafting, whichever is relevant to the character's path.

Quote from: Cairn on October 06, 2012, 05:36:46 am
/offthe wall:

live tutorial! Recruit players to help out in the tutorial every once in a while, through roleplay!

This could be nice, although some might feel that it gives participating players/guilds an "unfair" advantage? Any feedback from those who have taken part before?



Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Bonifarzia on October 06, 2012, 02:04:51 pm

Venalan, good luck with this project, which is indeed a big challenge, but has great potential for raising the player base. If somebody can get this done any time in the near future, it will be you.

Quote from: Eardstapa on October 06, 2012, 05:52:02 am
Quote from: Cairn on October 06, 2012, 05:36:46 am
/offthe wall:

live tutorial! Recruit players to help out in the tutorial every once in a while, through roleplay!
This could be nice, although some might feel that it gives participating players/guilds an "unfair" advantage? Any feedback from those who have taken part before?

I think there never was any problem with tutorial helpers in the past.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: MishkaL1138 on October 07, 2012, 01:41:13 am
Quote from: Cairn on October 06, 2012, 05:36:46 am
/offthe wall:

live tutorial! Recruit players to help out in the tutorial every once in a while, through roleplay!

Been there, done that. It seems that everyone forgets about the Tutorial Helpers though. I remember Odarilen, for example. The solution would be having someone with that task only, maybe with low GM powers? I mean, not players helping, but an actual "staff" doing that job.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Sarva on October 07, 2012, 05:16:09 pm
One of the biggest problems in the Tutorial is that players seem to be fixated on the NPC channel and ignore any other channel. Then even most of the time ignore even a warning sent to them. It can be frustrating when you want to talk to someone and they ignore tells, main and warnings. Maybe there needs to be a note about different channels in the tutorial.


For the Tutorial Helpers guild, which we still have,we have a rule of no guild recruitment in the tutorial.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Pakarro on October 08, 2012, 09:15:09 am
Quote from: Sarva on October 07, 2012, 05:16:09 pm
One of the biggest problems in the Tutorial is that players seem to be fixated on the NPC channel and ignore any other channel. Then even most of the time ignore even a warning sent to them. It can be frustrating when you want to talk to someone and they ignore tells, main and warnings. Maybe there needs to be a note about different channels in the tutorial.

Very good point! Some quests force players to interact, but when they don't get the idea to do that first, they are very soon discouraged.
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Minks on October 08, 2012, 02:40:50 pm
Great, Venalan! A tutorial overhaul is much needed.

My two trias on the topic (the rest has already been mentioned by others.):
1.) Don't have Xenak say "Go through the gate." when he's really waiting for you to click him again.
2.) Make some visible clue on the gates that you cannot exit through them. Maybe a note that says "Speak to Xenak or Abelia first."

Both for the same reason:
I've lost count on the number of newbies I watching ramming their little heads on the gates.  :lol:
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Cirerey on October 08, 2012, 03:48:44 pm
Quote from: Minks on October 08, 2012, 02:40:50 pm
My two trias on the topic (the rest has already been mentioned by others.):
1.) Don't have Xenak say "Go through the gate." when he's really waiting for you to click him again.

Maybe just change the text to something like "I can let you through the gate now"
Title: Re: I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Cairn on October 10, 2012, 10:00:32 pm
Quote from: MishkaL1138 on October 07, 2012, 01:41:13 am
Quote from: Cairn on October 06, 2012, 05:36:46 am
/offthe wall:

live tutorial! Recruit players to help out in the tutorial every once in a while, through roleplay!

Been there, done that. It seems that everyone forgets about the Tutorial Helpers though. I remember Odarilen, for example. The solution would be having someone with that task only, maybe with low GM powers? I mean, not players helping, but an actual "staff" doing that job.

Yurp, that's the idea. I didn't forget, just throwin' it out there again :)
Good eye, mate.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 04, 2013, 04:50:46 am
Just so you guys know, I've started the tutorial rework in earnest. I'll be posting updates as and when bits are done :D
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on March 04, 2013, 05:06:27 am
gogogo! \\o//
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Denes on March 04, 2013, 09:47:46 am
From where I’m standing it looks like:
I liked the tutorial when I joined (last Nov.) didn’t mind reading the longer text (considered every bits of settings valuable to fit in) , but yeah… Everybody is impatient about getting into the real thing. (some here are already discussed in older posts)
-   Stating that chat commands are important since not all have a GUI equivalent -> see help-chat commands to better interact with the word.
-   /show shortcut is a must
-   Mind slot is for crafting (ie you have to put a book in it to craft)
-   Mount is a no. A freshman cannot know traveling is that of a big problem here. This would just make them expect one, and fast.
To shorten the whole thing I’d try to offer choices of interest like: “I’m interested in fighting -> go kill rats” “I’m interested in crafting ->use the furnace“ or cooking, herbal or “Meeting interesting ppl ->RP advices” or whatever…. This would allow them to try only what they think their initial path could be. The best IMO would be to get them interact with other players as soon as possible. Like… Hmmm.. for example not giving swords for fighters-to-be, but telling them to try and ask for one near Harn’s till they get one. I’d expect most of our crafters give away a q50-100 sabre (or similar) any time for a promise of 20 rat legs.
In the hope you’ll find bits that are useable…
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 06, 2013, 08:10:06 am
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2ce3m6q.jpg)

So I've add this notice board and wanted to put 4-6 books on it with a series of basic things players could read about the city they will soon be entering.

Give me some ideas!

@Denes

Thanks for comments, all information for chat windows and how to craft will be pointed out to the players so they know exactly where to read about what they do. Making the help file as comprehensive as possible is the last thing to do be done before release. Linking to a version in here so you lot can read it immediately is something i'll also probably do.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on March 06, 2013, 08:50:03 am
There was a good suggestion by Shkirr(?) Mewmeat, a few days ago, to have an IC dictionary of a few usual phrases, in Common and in several racial languages. I am not sure if this would be a matching place for a copy, but it might give new players an early impression that some people take the meaning of "immersion" serious.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: ludwigusdescartium on March 06, 2013, 02:04:14 pm
This is a fine endeavour.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on March 06, 2013, 07:17:49 pm
A short book on the arrangement of government so that they realize it is neither a democracy nor a monarchy would be good. No need for kings or officials voted in by the general populace. ;)

or

Perhaps a book commenting on the shadier areas so that those interested in it will know to head to those places.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 07, 2013, 06:58:22 am
Quote from: LigH on March 06, 2013, 08:50:03 am
There was a good suggestion by Shkirr(?) Mewmeat, a few days ago, to have an IC dictionary of a few usual phrases, in Common and in several racial languages. I am not sure if this would be a matching place for a copy, but it might give new players an early impression that some people take the meaning of "immersion" serious.

I like this, good idea, I'm using it.

Quote from: Illysia on March 06, 2013, 07:17:49 pm
A short book on the arrangement of government so that they realize it is neither a democracy nor a monarchy would be good. No need for kings or officials voted in by the general populace. ;)

or

Perhaps a book commenting on the shadier areas so that those interested in it will know to head to those places.

Certainly possible I'll it to the list and see what else gets mentioned.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Roled on March 07, 2013, 01:03:44 pm
This is another fine piece of work started by the team and Venalan- thanks!

Since the books on the kiosk are meant to be IC, perhaps one should encourage rp right off? Something like
"Yliakum is a big world, with many wonders, and confusions!
If ye gets yerself lost or end up being chased by some salivating creature,
or if ye finds yerself in a city, and hungry, with no tria fer dinner, well, then,
ye can ASK any other citizen of our Dome fer help!

Most citizens will give ye directions, or suggestions, or even take ye to the place yer trying to find!
Some may even buy yer dinner and ale if yer hungry, or give ye a blade to start yer training.

Yliakum be a big world, but, each citizen of the Dome knows some of it's secrets.
Ask nicely, as ye would to a family member,  if ye wishes help or have questions...
And beware those what might wish to rob ye of yer pack!
Signed~
A Friend"

 ::|   ::| or something...  ::|

RR
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on March 07, 2013, 05:05:57 pm
Roled! :D

Sounds like a kind of preface to the "Letter of a friend".
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 22, 2013, 06:35:55 am
Update;

So, the first quest is done and her little bakery set up is done. Screenie to follow once I make one.

The first quest contains a good deal of /basic/ settings info.

What the area you are start in is and the general idea that invasions have started up again.
Details of the dome and seven levels.
Details about the what the bronze doors and stone labyrinth are.
Info on the Octarchy and Vigisimi and they are 'in charge'.
Race specific comments on when the players chosen race stared or arrived.
Details on other cities and basic info on how to get there.
Names and basic info on the gods.
Info on the start point to learning to cook and bake.
Info on what to expect in the rest of the tutorial or an explanation they can leave if they want to skip it.
And the first stack of starting goodies.

I'm making progress with the help of Taya with all this stuff. YAY US!
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on March 22, 2013, 08:28:09 am
\\o// Yay!

So I believe I will have to get teleported back to the tutorial one day to get impressed anew.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Bonifarzia on March 22, 2013, 10:03:42 am
Quote from: Venalan on March 22, 2013, 06:35:55 am
I'm making progress with the help of Taya with all this stuff. YAY US!

Thanks to both of you  \\o//

Tutorial overhaul has been attempted quite a few times and getting it finally done in such a good manner should really help to attract more players.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 23, 2013, 09:09:34 am
The promised screenie.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2ytppfq.jpg)
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 01:53:56 pm
Quote from: Eonwind on October 02, 2012, 10:51:42 am
Venalan I think is a good idea to give out a starting pack for new players (at the tutorial end). The starting pack could be chosen by players, an example:

- I want to be a warrior starting pack: two pieces of armor and a couple of weapons, some tria, a few potions
- I want to be a mage starting pack: 2 basic glyphs, some tria, a few mana and health potions, a couple of light armour pieces and one light weapon
- I want to be hunter: 2 pieces of armour, one light weapon, one bow, 65+65 arrows, some tria a few potions
- I want to be a crafter/... : some tool (rock pick, hammer, ...), some basic material, like a few ores, some tria, a few potions

those are just drafts of course :)

I wouldn´t add too much in there. As I was new I found it to be quite nice to have to get some stuff by myself or be given it by other players. I found it to be easy to buy glyphs from Levrus for example. And I was given a complete leather armor by a friendly player who played this game for a longer time already.

Having everything thats needed can make the initial finding where stuff is a bit boring…

Quote
What about adding a mount so players can see we have them? <-- good idea! :)

That means that an NPC has a mount? Well that would be nice. Although I think it will become kinda obvious that there are mounts pretty soon. Still, its part of the setting I think, so I think thats nice.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 02:02:35 pm
Quote from: bloodedIrishman on October 03, 2012, 08:27:53 am
Can players learn to duel in the tutorial? That would be fun ;D

As I entered the game I thought that anyone could just come and kill my char at any time. Actually I thought my char get killed in the first half hour. I was pleasantly surprised that no one even tried to attack my char during that time :).

I didn´t understand a think about duels. And even after having had the first training fight like duels, I thought when I am not careful enough my char gets killed. I didn´t know that there was a way to just defeat a player.

So, the tutorial didn´t give my anything to understand these game mechanics.

Well Planeshift iss my first MMORPG and still only MMORPG, so I may point out things that are obvious to other players. And: The tutorial does not have to resolve or explain everything. But still, at least an option to get a short intro on it or so, might be fine.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 02:05:35 pm
Quote from: LigH on March 22, 2013, 08:28:09 am
\\o// Yay!

So I believe I will have to get teleported back to the tutorial one day to get impressed anew.

Do I need an alt to be able to get there again? I do not yet have one and I am not sure whether I want one. I already have enough of things to do with the one char I play :)
Title: Re: Remake the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 02:10:47 pm
Quote from: Vakachehk on October 04, 2012, 05:46:05 am
Make it so that the rats in the tutorial take about 15-20 seconds to kill, taking no health points from the character. All rats in the tutorial drop hides, so you don't have to kill heaps till you finally get one to give to Ibhaar.

I hope it will continue to be optional. I know I cheated back then. I just told Ibhaar I was not able without even trying to do so on my second attempt to play the tutorial. Well as I decided for my char was that the char just really was not able to, but for non technical reasons.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 02:16:49 pm
Quote from: LigH on March 06, 2013, 08:50:03 am
There was a good suggestion by Shkirr(?) Mewmeat, a few days ago, to have an IC dictionary of a few usual phrases, in Common and in several racial languages. I am not sure if this would be a matching place for a copy, but it might give new players an early impression that some people take the meaning of "immersion" serious.

Like Tabei for example. I was surprised at people calling me Tabei all the time. Yes, some intro to the slang would be nice. I think some of this can be done by the NPC dialogs.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 03:17:04 pm
On showering I got an idea about the rats and the duel topic: How about offering to duel the Ibhaar NPC as an alternative option, like:

NPC smiles provocatively / challengly "Or alternatively you can fight against me, if you dare. I´d say you wouldn´t stand a chance, but I´d make it a bit easier for you so you would be able to learn something."

Maybe this can be fitted into the setting especially if Ibhaar is bored or unhappy about not being at BD Fortress.

Alternatively tutorial helpers or another training NPC could help out. As I heard about plans to possibly add dummies to the arena, this might fit with that as well. In any way, I would like an option to have some training fights easily, were result would be winning, yielding or being defeated.

Ciao,
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on March 23, 2013, 05:41:45 pm
Quote from: helios21 on March 23, 2013, 02:05:35 pm
Do I need an alt to be able to get there again?

Even worse, you would need another account (with a different email address). Only the first character of each account visits the tutorial. An effort many may rate as disproportionate.

Therefore you may try to petition your wish to get back there. The gain of money and items would be little for an already advanced player.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on March 23, 2013, 07:55:07 pm
Cool. So what is the tutorial area in relation to Hydlaa An outpost? I can make a news bulletin saying that abelia has remodeled her bakery.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Roled on March 23, 2013, 10:26:00 pm
RE: Venalan's screenie...

PORG!!!!  :woot:
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on March 24, 2013, 08:32:09 am
Yes, a pork grill, like in Camp Banished.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on March 24, 2013, 11:27:00 pm
Except that my one looks better  ;D
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on April 04, 2013, 04:11:56 am
Update time;

So the second quest with neave is basically done, the third quest with Ibhaar is close to being done. Quest number 4 should soon be stated.

An FYI: I will be asking for a full quest wipe of the tutorial quests so that everyone can repeat them to tell us what you think.

Anyone can ask a online GM or file a petition to ask to be moved to the tutorial -once it is released-. If you ask a GM face to face they should just do it immediately, if you ask by petition and you are online when a GM sees it they should let you know they are going to move you and will do it. You shouldn't expect them to hang about long waiting for you to finish up. If you are off line they should just reset your login position in the tutorial so the next time you log in you will see it.

Also;

I'm still very much willing to hear ideas about what we could do to make the tutorial as interesting as possible, so please if anyone reading this has an idea they dont think I know about post it and tell me.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Taya on April 11, 2013, 07:15:15 pm

Another update:

The second quest with Neave is now, not only basically done, but really done.

It covers a little more settings info and introduces crafting.

Info about the law.
Directions to visit the library.
Info about some of the things that can be crafted.
Info about the Crafting Association.
Names of trainers you can start learning with.
The chance to try making molten ore.
Info about mining.
Hints about rare metals.
And maybe something else to add to the stack of goodies Abelia gave. ;)


And Neave's little corner of the map has had its own makeover as well.

(http://i45.tinypic.com/316opxk.jpg)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Bonifarzia on April 11, 2013, 08:06:38 pm
Maybe I keep saying the same things again, but I think this will turn out nice and be a true help to attract new players... or rather, to make them stay for longer than a few minutes.

 \\o//
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Bakin_Fundinson on April 12, 2013, 10:47:45 am
...what Boni said, x2
 ;D
When it's all done & public, I'll give a go to see of some things needs clarification...
Is the whole tutorial doable by minors? From a non-english speaking country?
Is food introduced?
Is hunger / eating in the works or not being worked on?   :offtopic:

But again, great work, Venalan, this is something that will improve the player-base *bigtime* in the long run

/Bakin
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eonwind on April 12, 2013, 01:54:53 pm
Quote from: Bakin_Fundinson on April 12, 2013, 10:47:45 am
Is hunger / eating in the works or not being worked on?   :offtopic:

we already discussed about adding hunger and we don't want to introduce a hunger system that would penalize RPers and could be a potential trouble for everyone, so instead we gave food beneficial effects. A new system of buffs/debuffs for food was recently introduced as a result. We also added the indigestion capabilities to add a gameplay element and balance the food buffs in the process.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: cdmoreland on April 12, 2013, 02:21:20 pm
It's obvious that the RPers get the upper-hand.  ::) Just my pet-peeve. :offtopic:

You really need to do something about the last 2 NPCs in the tutorial as they sound like a 33 rpm @ 78 rpm (for those that remember records).

The new stuff looks great, Venalan. Thanks for your hard work.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Mordaan on April 12, 2013, 05:22:54 pm
Quote from: cdmoreland on April 12, 2013, 02:21:20 pm
You really need to do something about the last 2 NPCs in the tutorial as they sound like a 33 rpm @ 78 rpm (for those that remember records).

Since the dialog is being redone, those audio files will go away anyway.  It was a nice experiment to try and give NPCs an actual voice, but I think it might be time to scrap the idea for now.   :devil:
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eonwind on April 12, 2013, 06:56:38 pm
A great thanks to Taya who is helping out to rework the tutorial! Keep up the good work!  \\o//
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Bakin_Fundinson on April 17, 2013, 09:17:22 pm
Quote from: Eonwind on April 12, 2013, 06:56:38 pm
A great thanks to Taya who is helping out to rework the tutorial!
Whoa, I thought it was a solo-work by V...
My apologies; Big thank-yous go out to all participants in this improvement
 :D
Bakin
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Taya on April 18, 2013, 12:12:11 am
No problem Bakin. I'm very happy to be involved. :)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on April 18, 2013, 07:19:27 am
Nice work guys. :thumbup: People may actually try the tutorial rather than run around for 2 mins then try to leave. Hmm... might you be able to add something to encourage players to interact with each other in the tutorial? My past adventures in working in the tutorial area meant that when you tried to help new players they almost never said anything back. :/ One interesting exception was the Spanish speaker who used the Spanish equivalent of chat speak. ::| If Lilu hadn't been there I wouldn't have had any clue what he was asking.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on April 18, 2013, 07:50:26 am
So I am overseeing it all with the master plan I outlined in post one (more or less) which is based on the tutorial remake project posted on the PSwiki. And I'm still after ideas for some books which would hold some useful early game information for players.

I coerced Taya into helping me by saying there would be chocolate for her  :devil:. Thus far Taya has helped with quests and setting up lots of the props, everything in the Neave post she has made or set up with a few suggestions. Eonwind is going to be doing a little bit for this as well at some point, which will add a little life to the place. So I'm not the only one working on it, and I'm enjoying making this with Taya we are having fun with it.

There is still lots to do before we are close to ready, so showing it off to you lot is still a good number of weeks off. But on the up side a problem I had with opening up the tutorial to all has been solved so I will be adding a gate to it by the windowless tower. But be warned once you enter it you will have to do at least some of the tutorial before you will be able to get out.

OH! And Taya, the Chocolate is real.... obviously... :whistling:

@Illysia
I've tried talking to players in the tutorial as well. It seems they are either just to stuck to know I spoke, or busy to notice I spoke, or busy reading the NPC tab to notice I spoke. Perhaps opening it up will change that by having established players helping and/or RPing in there.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on April 18, 2013, 08:13:13 am
Ok, thanks you all of you for working on this sorely needed project. I'll keep an eye out for the gate being placed, about time that gate got used anyway. ;)

However, maybe seeing others standing around talking when they first get in rather than just a silent area will help. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. :)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Taya on April 18, 2013, 07:36:24 pm
Chocolate is always real. And don't forget that cup of tea you owe me. And the biscuits to dunk in it Venalan! Really, don't forget the biscuits.

I'm hoping that by opening up the tutorial it will be much easier for new players to encounter and get help from people earlier on, and that the changes will make it easier for new players to start out in general as well. So far it's looking good, so I am pretty sure we still have time to make it even better before people get to play through it and see what we've done. :)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on April 20, 2013, 07:26:02 am
So another quest it done..

(http://oi33.tinypic.com/33bmkax.jpg)

These are the props for the third quest.

Quite a simple quest. He tells you about combat and weapons, gives you a selection of weapons to pick from and gives you one basic lesson. You also have the option of fighting a rat and giving him the hide(s) you get. He explains who the first trainers are for weapons and armor so you know who to go an see. And a few other little bits and pieces.. And after all that sends you off to do magic...

Ta Da!
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on April 20, 2013, 11:02:31 am
Poor cranky Ibhaar. :)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: cdmoreland on April 20, 2013, 05:05:15 pm
Quote from: Illysia on April 20, 2013, 11:02:31 am
Poor cranky Ibhaar. :)

I never met a drill instructor that wasn't cranky when doing his job. ;)
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Roled on April 21, 2013, 12:35:53 am
Venalan and Team Tutorial!  :thumbup:

This looks great, and great progress! kudos!

Can Ibhaar be a female or a non-gendered skin? I just love the subliminal, or perhaps overt, questioning of paradigm that the drill instructors are hunky.. tho I suppose a Northrir could be hunky with enough steroids...  :o
RR

Good work!
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Taya on May 24, 2013, 09:55:12 pm
And... It's been a little while, but here's another update.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2h4ama0.jpg)

Orphia can now be asked about the different ways and will help you to decide which you'd like to learn about before giving you your first lesson and, of course, your first glyph to play with. She tells you where you should go to learn more and also points you toward how to start out in herbalism/alchemy.

More to come (hopefully soon!)...
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on May 24, 2013, 10:19:18 pm
Attracts attention and interest. Well done.
Title: Re: [Community] I'm Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Illysia on May 25, 2013, 03:06:27 am
Nice.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: helios21 on May 26, 2013, 04:46:41 pm
Now I am really interested in helping new players out, just to explore the tutorial area again after all those improvements!

Thank you,
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on June 06, 2013, 08:26:25 am
Update.

Part 1 - Eonwind added a path for an NPC guard so there will be an NPC walking about the whole map. He also added movement to the rats and another prop npc. All good stuff.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2wols2f.jpg)

Part 2 - Taya has written 5 books for the notice board which I hope to get loaded soon and added into the new tutorial.

Part 3 - The last three quests are basically written. The NPC for the last quest will be redesigned and will go in the area below.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/bzymc.jpg)

Part 4 - We have loaded the first 4 quests to the test server and have begun testing them and make small improvements to them all.

Part 5 - We have started changing the help file to match the text in the tutorial and also make it (we hope) better.

So we really don't have too much more to do. I hope in the next few weeks if we can get enough testing done and finish off the last few things we will get close to having this finished.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: LigH on June 06, 2013, 11:10:45 am
This looks so cozy, who would want to leave the tutorial area now? ;D
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on June 22, 2013, 07:31:30 am
Update time.

So we have been working on rewriting the 'start here' section of the help file. And given the fact that you need a client update to fix mistakes in it I would like you lot to read it over and comment on it now.

New Help File (https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2jh2eggmcjyu2m/NEW%20-%20help.xml)

I suggest using it in game so you can get a real feel for it. To do that you need to click the 'download button' once you have it you need to re-name it 'Help.xml' and replace the current help file with this new one. You can find it in the installation directory. 

"program files/planeshift/data" in windows.

I'm after comments on content, formatting, language, spelling, grammar... everything. Lets hear it.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on July 03, 2013, 04:53:13 am
So, we are in the final stages of getting this all ready so any last comments or suggestions let us know.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: verden on July 03, 2013, 05:27:43 am
Looks like a good bit of work, best wishes.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on July 14, 2013, 09:17:03 am
And it's done  \\o//. There may well be a few little bugs which we haven't noticed but I'm sure they will be easily fixed once reported.

So this is what the team has done.

7 rewritten quests - DONE
set dressing for the 5 main npcs - DONE
a npc guard walking about - DONE
a pet for Ibhaar - DONE
notice board and new books with settings info - DONE
new and improved help file - DONE
changes to chat tab options to make selecting them easy for new people - DONE
doors for coming and going from tutorial at will - DONE

It will be a little while until it is released as we have some internal testing going on for other stuff, but it surly cant be long now......
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: gonger on July 14, 2013, 09:44:24 am
Congratulations and thanks to everybody who was involved.
I can't wait to try it myself.

Gonger
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Eonwind on July 14, 2013, 04:57:22 pm
I will only add one thing: we've revised all practice and experience scripts to make sure *almost* every skill can be equally trained at the same speed. This will make some of them easier to train than before (and hopefully will remove some grinding as well in the process). Also experience gained by practicing a given skill will give enough PPs to train its next level. This was already true with some of them but now we polished the system extending it to most skills.
These changes took a lot of time but we hope it will make it easier for new players to train some skills.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Mordaan on August 01, 2013, 04:51:38 pm
Just a note on my progress.  One of the purposes of the tutorial is to point you in the right direction to get started in quests.  In particular, the "intro" quests.  I have updated most of those, adding some additional Q & A, particularly for Introduction to Crafting and Introduction to Science.

Consequently, a big part of that is how quests are chained.  So this has been a good opportunity to start the restructuring of quest chains, which has been a goal of mine for years.  Crafting has gotten the biggest change, with branches for each crafting area (mining, metal working, blades, armor, and general crafting quests).  In the intro quest, Harnquist will now explain how and where to get started in each craft.  I've also redone science, arts, and seeds of wildwood.  And changing the order of the quests is no good without dialog to properly direct you, so I am working on that now.

So it's a huge project but I'm making good progress.  I'll get as much of this done by the time the tutorial is released, but it will be ongoing.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Roled on August 02, 2013, 01:06:54 am
 \\o//   \\o//   \\o//
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Rigwyn on August 10, 2013, 08:41:50 am
I look a quick look. Here are some first impressions:

* It looks nice - like you are walking through a street market.

* I like the fact that Abelia does not shout at you like a desperate car salesman the moment you arrive. You have some time to look around before getting messages in the NPC tab about Abelia being the starting point.

* Silaces greeted me. This is a very nice touch, however it would be better if she could respond to some basic things that a newbie might say... like:

Hi
Hello
I'm new
Who are you
Where am I?
I am MegaCthuluzon Prime, twisted guardian of the eight dimension and personal saviour of deformed puppies and three eyed kittens.




Even a blanket answer that pre-emptively answers a few questions might be better than "This npc has no quest for you but may be able to answer other questions"

If she is going to greet noobs, then why not make her offer a very basic quest?  Just something to think about.
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: bilbous on August 10, 2013, 09:32:03 am
I was annoyed by her greets every time she walked by. I didn't even try to engage with her. I did not see a need for her at all.

Now that i think on it the tutorial world is like a prison and she is the one keeping the trustees (the NPCs offering quests) in line, the players being the prisoners getting released into the real world. I'm sure it is just a passing conceit on my part and nobody else would think that without prompting. :)
Title: Re: [COMMUNITY] We're Remaking the tutorial so it’s fun and interesting thread
Post by: Venalan on August 10, 2013, 09:40:00 pm
Now the tutorial is released can all comments please go here [COMMUNITY] Now we've made a new tutorial, what do you think? (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41352.0)