PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: novacadian on October 17, 2013, 09:49:24 pm
-
It would be nice to see some learn by doing taking place through the game mechanics. As mounts ride and glide by my character it makes one wonder why she isn't building strength and/or endurance with all the cross country jogging which she does for ic reasons. Some learn by doings would go a long way to helping bring the game mechanics to those who would rather spend time rp-ing than grinding, as well.
-
There is a reason nearly every single successful MMORPG does NOT use a 'pay for skills' system. Because its idiotic and counter-intuitive. Grinding in planeshift is pointless enough as it is without adding yet another layer of hardship to it. It creates a plateau at of all the stupid places, the fresh off the tutorial noobs. You need money to train skills. In order to get money, you need a skill. Catch 22 of awfulness. The successful MMORPG's I'm referring to are the likes of Runescape, World of Warcraft, I suppose you could say Diablo. The only successful pay-for-skilling MMO I can think of off the top of my head is EVE Online, which has long been referred to as 'accounting in space'.
But here the extra mile of ridiculous is taken, a THIRD layer of completely unnecessary hardship, the PP system. I've played quite a few MMO type games, and while a few (immensely unsuccessful, the big name ones use learn by doing for a reason. IT WORKS. Just because your system is unique, doesn't mean it's any good.) used the pay for skills system, they kept it at that and hell even used it as a basis for a real money shop, which players might hate but is a solid business strategy.
Having three layers of mind wrenching toil to get 1 measly level is just wrong. Either strip away the proven terrible systems and go full learn by doing, or stick with either the PP or monetary systems alone. It'l still be a poison in the well and continue to drive off players, but will probably do so at a much slower rate.
At least the monetary system makes a modicum of sense, you're paying for a trainer to teach you things. While for simpler skills that don't actually need any sort of formal trainer to pick up (Mining, Body Dev, Strength, ect) it's a little silly, it still has that basis in reality you can argue for. PP doesn't make any goddamn sense at all. You need to kill (lets face it, hunting is the only reliable way to get PP. See above plateau) things to acquire a metaphysical concept and somehow channel that mystical force into a 2nd layer of purchase required for training? What? I'm sorry but what? Can someone (preferably someone actually playing the game atm.) explain that to me?
/rant. TL;DR nova's right but we all know it will never be changed because the idea has somehow sprung up that being different is a substitute for actually functioning.
-
Not a new idea. Discussed over "decades". ;)
But it is the purpose of other games to implement it that way.
-
just because you want to do something in a way which allows you to be a special snowflake, does not always mean that it is the best way to do such things.
not picking sides here; simply pointing out that there are more than a few reasons why the game is currently where it is at, with the amount of people that play it, besides it being a "hobby project" and development takes a bit longer than a more normal game does.
-
You need to kill (lets face it, hunting is the only reliable way to get PP. See above plateau)
No, this is no more true. Since the last update every skill now provide at least the necessary experience (and PPs) to advance to the next skill level once done with practice.
-
You need to kill (lets face it, hunting is the only reliable way to get PP. See above plateau)
No, this is no more true. Since the last update every skill now provide at least the necessary experience (and PPs) to advance to the next skill level once done with practice.
Remind me to go ask a noob if they currently need PP. And if you eventually make it so that doing the skill (while presumably leveling it.) gives you exactly the amount to get the points to level it... WHY DO WE HAVE PP TO BEGIN WITH?
-
Crafting PP gain has been rebalanced and is much nicer now. It's possible to out and out gain PP while grinding crafting now, even (which is A Good Thing (TM))
-
Wild speculation: If you didn't have pp, then someone could give you a crap load of money and you could buy all your stats in one shot ( str, will, cha, etc.. )
What is not intuitive at first is if you spend your pp on stats, you'll have none left for skill training.
-
Wild speculation: If you didn't have pp, then someone could give you a crap load of money and you could buy all your stats in one shot ( str, will, cha, etc.. )
is that a bad thing?
-
I think it would actually be a disadvantage now in terms of skill training. I think the way it used to be, it would have been a huge advantage. The only question would be whether or not it would have been worth the expense. Again, things were different then than they are now.
-
I don't have any real problems with the current scheme. PP and tria aren't that hard to accumulate, especially since the rebalancing. I just started a new character and was able to earn over 1000 PP and 20k tria in about an hour with some basic crafting. Plus there are always the quests for earning both PP and tria. I think even the simplest ones give at least 40 PP. Yes, they take some time and may require running all over the Dome, but I think they help introduce newbies to PlaneShift and role play and provide something to do other than just grind away at a craft.
-
Agree. I tried questing with a new char recently just to see how it was. The quests were giving far more pp and tria than rat bashing. Its a nice way to get a start. Again, if the player does not know about this advantage, then they may not find out until they've passed the point where its beneficial.
-
Remind me to go ask a noob if they currently need PP. And if you eventually make it so that doing the skill (while presumably leveling it.) gives you exactly the amount to get the points to level it... WHY DO WE HAVE PP TO BEGIN WITH?
I think you can remind it yourself ... to begin with.
It was already made (as I already said) that you get the amount of PP needed to level the skill. PPs are experience, basically a fraction of it: 1 PP = 200 Exp, so afterall they're nothing fancy at all.
The experience gained can be spent to raise the practiced skill itself, the stats or maybe raise another skill, the choice is up to the player.
Wild speculation: If you didn't have pp, then someone could give you a crap load of money and you could buy all your stats in one shot ( str, will, cha, etc.. )
is that a bad thing?
bad thing or not, just it wasn't the way the system was designed so far, beside this system would give a huge advantage to rich players.
-
PP are learning by doing. In a more generalized fungible form to allow cross training. What earns PP and how many can always be discussed.
-
PP is not "learning by doing". It's... There is no way to explain it because there is no real life equivalent.
Seriously, what is it?
-
PP is not "learning by doing". It's... There is no way to explain it because there is no real life equivalent.
Seriously, what is it?
experience :P
and if gaining practice and experience by doing something (crafting, hunting, ...) is not learning by doing I don't know what it is :P
now seriously, in my opinion the current system "bottleneck" is having to go to a trainer to continue training the skill, unfortunately it's not something easily solved
-
What? PP is not experience. Think critically and try again.
-
Experience literally translates into PP. I see no other use of experience other than getting PP.
But then there's that little green bar you have to fill while doing a particular skill that goes along with PP. That green bar is the 'true' practice-to-learn experience thing. Even with PP, you need to use the skill to advance the green bar first; which is, I'm assuming, the 'on-the-job' experience.
-
I don't get what the confusion is about. As stated, 1 pp is earned for every 200 experience points earned. This is like when you get "points" for making credit card purchases. Those points can be spent on skills and stats.
What is different about Planeshift is that these points are not locked into a specific skill or stat. You can allocate them to unrelated skills and stats if you choose. Its a resource, and like any other resource, if you squander it, you will not have enough for the things you need.
Its odd, yes, but not a big deal.
-
bad thing or not, just it wasn't the way the system was designed so far, beside this system would give a huge advantage to rich players.
rich players, assuming the economy was balanced, would imply that they got their monies via long amounts of playing either by professions or monster stabbing, which in the current system, means they'd also already have plenty of exp aka PP.
pp is therefore still useless given your reasoning. if they are rich, they'd still be able to power lvl whatever they want. but again, is that a bad thing? they put in hours upon hours of game time to get that much in the first place. why not reward them for their fruits of labor?
my personal issue with the system is the way it is displayed via the user display. way too crowded and busy, unintuitive, and terrible color choices.
-
So there is already experience, and yet we have PP. There is already skill-specified experience (the blue bar), and yet we have PP. Too complicated. If people are complaining about it now, imagine when this game has hundreds of players.
If leveling was realistic, you would be able to level up as a you were actively using a skill. Then you would reach a plateau, where you could not level up any further, until you found a trainer to teach you more about the skill. Then you would take that knowledge and continue practice, leveling up once again. Then return to your trainer and so on...
-
If leveling was realistic, you would be able to level up as a you were actively using a skill. Then you would reach a plateau, where you could not level up any further, until you found a trainer to teach you more about the skill. Then you would take that knowledge and continue practice, leveling up once again. Then return to your trainer and so on...
wake up Volki :P ... you just described the system as it is now, the only difference I see from the current system (aside the way the GUI shows thing up) is you need to visit a trainer once every 10-20 levels instead of every single one.
rich players, assuming the economy was balanced, would imply that they got their monies via long amounts of playing either by professions or monster stabbing, which in the current system, means they'd also already have plenty of exp aka PP.
pp is therefore still useless given your reasoning. if they are rich, they'd still be able to power lvl whatever they want. but again, is that a bad thing? they put in hours upon hours of game time to get that much in the first place. why not reward them for their fruits of labor?
my personal issue with the system is the way it is displayed via the user display. way too crowded and busy, unintuitive, and terrible color choices.
you completely misunderstood the point of my reasoning. A rich player may create an alt, transfer an amount of money and have this alt maxed in no time, still the character belong to the player that spent a lot of time working and I could even agree with it, but the same thing can happen with other players up to a point where a single player or a small group of players could "monopolize" the server deciding the skill progression of other players and who is left behind.
A system where not only being rich (or having rich friends) is enough to max out skill but the time spent playing the game is rewarded as well seems to me overall better.
This doesn't mean the system we have is perfect, for example I would like a system where the character's stats could be risen by itself while players perform simple game actions like running, walking or chatting (thus eliminating the need of trainers for stats), unfortunately it's not that easy to do.
-
No, I did not. PP does not exist in reality. There is no equivalent.
I see PP as an ugly mutation of leveling. In many games, when you level up, you are given points to spend on skills, even if you never worked on those skills. But PP allows you to spend points on skills without advancing a level. This means that although we do not have levels, we are subjected to the same concept, which has no basis in reality.
PlaneShift is not unique as long as it holds onto the PP system. It is just as arbitrary as leveling. The only difference is that we don't have a number on display next to our usernames.
-
you completely misunderstood the point of my reasoning. A rich player may create an alt, transfer an amount of money and have this alt maxed in no time, still the character belong to the player that spent a lot of time working and I could even agree with it, but the same thing can happen with other players up to a point where a single player or a small group of players could "monopolize" the server deciding the skill progression of other players and who is left behind.
A system where not only being rich (or having rich friends) is enough to max out skill but the time spent playing the game is rewarded as well seems to me overall better.
how does someone being maxed stats effect someone who isn't?
gold sinks need to exist or you have a broken economy as it is now.
-
PP is a RPG/OOC part, not a realistic or IC one. I think stats/skills should level up when a character use them, not by buying some ranks to a trainer.
But levels aren't realistics too...
-
No, I did not. PP does not exist in reality. There is no equivalent.
Just to be clear, there's no reality equivalent of experience points, practice points, levels and not even skills in the way they're conceived in every game. It's just a simulation of reality. Given that PS system is the opposite of a level based system and that's pretty easy to understand.
I see PP as an ugly mutation of leveling.
Sorry to be a nitpicker but this is truly fun.
PP is experience (1 PP = 200 Exp) it's basically the same thing with a different name, just like dollars and euro are (x$ = y€) so the following sentence stay true:
"I see experience as an ugly mutation of leveling."
which makes no sense at all because in every gaming system featuring experience points, they're the medium used to "trade" levels. So experience can be a mutation of levelling as much as dollars are a mutation of the bread which you can buy with them.
-
Yes, that was my point.
To be a better simulator of reality, I'd suggest removing PP and leaving players with individual skills. The reasons players have levels in other games are the restriction of lower level players and the display of a player's experience. PS players are given neither of these, so there is no logical reason to keep the mechanic. It is an extraneous complication for both development and new players.
-
My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. :P
-
My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. :P
Would the accrual of exp points for the expenditure of physical and / or mental stamina be an acceptable alternative to you? It would give noobs another way to gather PP beyond beating rats and kikiri. Even if it was only 20 exp points running from Hydlaa to Ojaveda it would at least symbolically add some training value to exercise. Just a thought...
-
My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. :P
This is what I wanted to add since quite some time, unfortunately there is are some issues:
- performing actions (like running/walking) should award practice points but this means to raise stats won't be enough anymore to buy them but some practice will be required
- gaining practice for physical stats can be quite obvious (and maybe not boring as you gain them by doing other stuff) but training mental stats in a continuous (and fun) manner can be a challenge
- the goal would be to make increasing stats straightforward, our training systems is already complicated and I want to avoid adding more difficulties at all cost
- stats could be risen each time another skill is risen, but then there would be no need of practice points for stats (wich is not a problem by itself) and that would make the 'learn by doing' unnecessary
- what about experience spent for traiing stats? should the stats automatically spend the player's exp each time the practice is over and a lavel is advanced? --> I don't like stealing the control from the user, so it must be avoided but then the need of having a trainer (it's the technical step where you can choose if you want to spend your exp to train something or not) is not eliminated
those are just a few problems that puzzles me and I still have to find a decent solution for it (without screwing our training system to the core, which I don't think we have to). Maybe someone can have a good idea or help find some solution...
-
Plenty of solutions have been offered by the playerbase.
-
It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.
This is why:
* The player "Pays a price" by training until their bar is full.
* They "Pay" again when they run to the trainer.
* They "Pay" again and pay him with tria.
In return, their skill level goes up one notch.
As a player, its discouraging when you return to fighting npcs and see that there is no noticeable improvement.
I do understand that if you reward too quickly, then you run out of rewards too soon, but I think its just as bad when you reward too slowly. Another option might be to have more granularity in NPC strength so that small changes in skill are visible.
[ Edit: Deleted a lot of unneeded words ]
-
As a player, its discouraging when you return to fighting npcs and see that there is no noticeable improvement.
I do understand that if you reward too quickly, then you run out of rewards too soon, but I think its just as bad when you reward too slowly. Another option might be to have more granularity in NPC strength so that small changes in skill are visible.
Rigwyn I think we should separate the discussion on how fast the progression is from how the progression can be done. About the first a lot of improvements have been made since the last time and many of you have already noticed it was noticeably faster than before, as of now almost every skill takes about the same time it takes to train combat skills (which were the fastest skills to train in game from the mechanics pov).
About the latter:
It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.
I think (always considering how the actual system we have works) this [training in bigger increments] should be avoided, why? Because if you get to decide the skill you want to train and then you don't need to make the choice for 10 levels [aka you automatically practice the same skill for the next 9 levels] the systems would steal the ability to choose weather spending your experience points from you: each time you practice a skill enough to level experience would be automatically spent, so it could happens you get to be locked in a situation where you're unable to train other skills you want until you didn't reach the point where you can choose again (let's say after 9 levels).
A better solution imo would be to make available trainers more widespread, so you don't need to do travel a lot because the trainers are next to you. For example we tried to cover the issue with more trainers especially in the lower skill range like (but still a lot can be done, for example making them available in every city).
-
Didn't mean to drift too far from the OP. My main point is that there could be a better balance between cost and reward so that its more encouraging overall. I do admit, my pov may be a bit outdated.
-
New players don't stand a chance. With the mobs attacking at will, they can't even do a quest in Ojaveda, if they can even live long enough to get there. Quests are about the only way for a new player to get PP and tria.
-
Oja is tough for new characters, but its not the only city.
-
It would be nice if you made less trips and trained in bigger increments.
I think (always considering how the actual system we have works) this [training in bigger increments] should be avoided, why? Because if you get to decide the skill you want to train and then you don't need to make the choice for 10 levels [aka you automatically practice the same skill for the next 9 levels] the systems would steal the ability to choose weather spending your experience points from you: each time you practice a skill enough to level experience would be automatically spent, so it could happens you get to be locked in a situation where you're unable to train other skills you want until you didn't reach the point where you can choose again (let's say after 9 levels).
A better solution imo would be to make available trainers more widespread, so you don't need to do travel a lot because the trainers are next to you. For example we tried to cover the issue with more trainers especially in the lower skill range like (but still a lot can be done, for example making them available in every city).
Or you could do the obvious and make it so the player doesn't have to go to an NPC to learn every new level.
At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.
You could also create books that can train players (up to a point, since books can't teach the nuances of the real thing). They are portable and reusable. Might be like a little "used textbook" market.
Oja is tough for new characters, but its not the only city.
So you suggest noobs drop quests that take them to Oja...? luls
-
New players don't stand a chance. With the mobs attacking at will, they can't even do a quest in Ojaveda, if they can even live long enough to get there.
if there is a specific problem with some mobs behaviour then it will be dealt with and solved, in the specific case I will make it so the Rogues behavior isn't triggered when a character is assesed to be weak.
Most of the low level mobs anyway are not aggressive by default (rats, clackers, coamti) and aggressive mobs are mainly located in the wilderness area and in dangerous zone, and anyway staying on track between a city and the other a player will hardly be attacked by any monster as they have specific regions they stay inside.
Quests are about the only way for a new player to get PP and tria.
this is simply not true: looting low level monster is a simple way to get both experience and tria; the arena area has been specifically designed for training and this purpose, there are pits hosting low level mobs, and there are merchants ready to buy player's loot.
Crafting is another big source of both trias and experience (probably even bigger than hunting at the moment), mining and harvesting too and there are mines and harvesting areas next to hydlaa where it's possible to get the most common resources for crafting with no risk of being attacked by monsters.
Anyway it's true there are some areas designed not to be newbie areas but to offer challenges for trained characters. Bronze Door is one of them.
I will only add one things on mobs behaviour: most of the aggressive mobs have been programmed so that when they spot a player (longer range) they stop (if moving) and turn to face him but they won't attack until the player moves to a shorter distance. This was done on purpose to warn the player they've been spotted and they're running the risk of facing a threat, if they happily run trough the monster then they're facing their own doom :P
-
At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.
I think you must learn to read better. I said this is basically stealing control from the end user and I will never do it. Stealing control from the user is very BAD things to do.
-
So...why couldn't you train several skills at once with Volki's idea? You know, the green bar goes up as you train, you decide to do a different skill, and go raise that green bar instead?
Assuming PPs are gone, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. I see no 'stealing' of control. In fact, I see it as allowing more flexibility as a whole. Unless ya'll mean to completely restrict a player to training one skill at a time, which makes little sense. Already we can train several skills at once, depending on what I'm doing.
-
Thank you, Raxuss.
At level 0, you don't have to go to an NPC. At level 5, you're unable to learn any more on your own, so you must go to an NPC. You learn more on your own, then at level 10 you must go to an NPC.
I think you must learn to read better. I said this is basically stealing control from the end user and I will never do it. Stealing control from the user is very BAD things to do.
Could you explain how it is stealing control from the player? And my reading comprehension is far above average, for the record.
-
I will try to explain very simply:
- whenever a player pays for the skill trias and exp are spent at the same time. player voluntarily spend trias and exp by hitting the train button;
- the player practice the skill gaining practice points
- when enough practice points are gained the system raise the skill to the next level, the player can train again starting from point 1
if the step number 1 is done only once every 5-10 levels then it means the system will skip point 1) 9 times over 10, this means when completing point 3) the system has to automatically spend trias and exp (if the player has enough of it) to start over from point 2). This cycle will go on again until the stopping point (level 5-10) is reached.
The result is the machine will assume step 1) as true (nine times over 10) that now is authorized by the end user thus partly stealing control from the user.
-
So, don't do it. Pay for all of the sessions at once when you go train. DO NOT have an auto-pay every time you rank up, that'd be horrible. I don't know where that idea came from, but it needs to go home. We can agree that's terrible.
When you train, you train for the next x-static-number of ranks. This uses both your money and PP (assuming we still have that). Right now, x = 1. Make it x = 5 or maybe even x = 10.
But there's a problem with that I want hit; the costs. If every time you go train you need to pay for several training sessions instead of just increments of one, it can come to a point where you'll need a lot more stuff before you can go train again. I won't pretend I know how much tria people have at the higher levels ranks, but I know training gets expensive as I go along. So, I'm going to assume the worst case scenario and say that the idea leaves everyone stalled due to funds/PP. I have two ways I'd do this noise:
1. Make training less expensive in their individual costs, train in increments larger than one (adding each next increment cost to the next; example train for 5 ranks instead of the one), but make progress take longer (you need to use the skill more to rank up than before). This'll keep people from running out of money, but keep them limited on how fast they rank up. It also let's anyone who went cash-hunting to go train a skill for x-static-number of ranks and really go deep into the skill and get tons of cash (and PP, if it's still there) for other skills they may want to start into.
This way limits players more on the time aspect than the cost aspect. The more time you spend progressing your ranks, the better you'll be. The more active you are, the better your skills.
But I have another way that may or may not help bring food for thought on the topic. This will ignore everything I have typed above and just change one small aspect of the system:
2. Choose how many ranks you want to train for. Instead of making someone train for a static number of ranks, let them decide how many ranks they can afford/want to rank up in before returning to the trainer. That way the player controls the amount they spend and how much longer they have until they need to return to the trainer. Costs and stuff would stay the same, at that point.
But that's just my take on 'making less trips to the trainer'. As far as PP goes, I honestly think that Volki is right. It's in the way and mucking up what could be a simple, easy system to use that's not like your WoW or EVE (maybe a lil' like EVE, or how EVE used to be, anyway).
You train til' your rank is done (by actually doing the skill), you go to a trainer to buy training so you can get more ranks (with tria, because I don't think you can buy food with PP), rinse and repeat, and that's the end of that. No PP costs, just tria.
General experience you guys are seeing (green number showers when you cut 24 Barberries at once) can be either done away with or somehow connected to the progression bar instead. I have an idea on that, but my post is far too long for a new guy like me already.
-
I forgot that levels are called ranks in this game.
Raxuss, your point #2 is similar to what I was thinking. Originally, as an example, I suggested every 5 ranks you'd have to meet an NPC trainer. Letting the player choose the number of ranks to buy (the amount of knowledge to be taught) is a better option. The player would not have to return to the trainer until he or she runs out of "knowledge" to put to practice. There should be a maximum on the number of ranks a player could buy, so a player couldn't go from being rank 0 to 200 by only visiting a trainer once.
Regarding funds, it's really not that hard to acquire them later on. Not with combat skills, at least.
Eonwind, do you see what we are saying now?
-
So, don't do it. Pay for all of the sessions at once when you go train. DO NOT have an auto-pay every time you rank up, that'd be horrible. I don't know where that idea came from, but it needs to go home. We can agree that's terrible.
When you train, you train for the next x-static-number of ranks. This uses both your money and PP (assuming we still have that). Right now, x = 1. Make it x = 5 or maybe even x = 10.
this seems to me harder to understand for new user than the current system, because other than paying for training you also have to choose how many levels you want to pay for and train in advance, it's overcomplicated.
You train til' your rank is done (by actually doing the skill), you go to a trainer to buy training so you can get more ranks (with tria, because I don't think you can buy food with PP), rinse and repeat, and that's the end of that. No PP costs, just tria.
you described the system exactly the way it is except you would get rid of the experience which makes no sense at all as it's a common feature in the majority of MMORPG for good reasons.
Eonwind, do you see what we are saying now?
I already understood that before and it requires either paying the cost in advance (which is unsupported other than it adds another layout of complexity to the system instead of simplifying it) or having the computer making the choice for you (which would be even worse).
-
Yeah... You definitely didn't get it.
-
you described the system exactly the way it is except you would get rid of the experience which makes no sense at all as it's a common feature in the majority of MMORPG for good reasons.
This isn't WoW. It's not a grind. It's an RP game. We aren't here for levels, we're here to tell stories.
MMORPGs tend to have experience to draw people in. To get them addicted to getting that next level, that next step. That is not the purpose of this game, I had thought. Realism and immersion is the name of the game and experience points are not realistic nor is grinding immersive. Getting better at a skill as a result of doing that skill is both.
If grinding and leveling is, indeed, the purpose of this game, then shame on me. Like I said, I'm new. Sorry.
I already understood that before and it requires either paying the cost in advance (which is unsupported other than it adds another layout of complexity to the system instead of simplifying it) or having the computer making the choice for you (which would be even worse).
You already pay in advance; that's what paying for training does. You pay to go off and learn more of the skill.
With my suggestion, you would simply strengthen the action. That's it. Instead of paying 100 tria for 1 rank, you pay 1000 tria for 10 ranks (prices not to scale, obviously). No secret hook or fine print. You pick your number of training sessions, it spits out the costs and a confirmation window, and bam; now you go do what you do to go earn those ranks.
Having the computer do anything automatically should not even be considered.
-
The thing is, this is BOTH a role play game and a grinding game. I grind and role play, and grind to role play. Would you want someone that cannot cast a spell to teach you how to do it? There are those that want to play pretend and there are those that level their skills to play. Waesed gets a little peeved at those that interrupt his rp and want him to play by their rules. Please, do not expect me to role the dice to see if I even hit you. >:(
-
This discussion has nothing to do with styles of roleplay.
-
This discussion has nothing to do with styles of roleplay.
Just responding to the previous post. Do we grind or do we role play? The answer is that we do both, some more than others. That is a personal choice.
-
This isn't WoW. It's not a grind. It's an RP game. We aren't here for levels, we're here to tell stories.
MMORPGs tend to have experience to draw people in. To get them addicted to getting that next level, that next step. That is not the purpose of this game, I had thought. Realism and immersion is the name of the game and experience points are not realistic nor is grinding immersive. Getting better at a skill as a result of doing that skill is both.
If grinding and leveling is, indeed, the purpose of this game, then shame on me. Like I said, I'm new. Sorry.
This is a RP game with game mechanics. No one is forcing you to use any in-game mechanics at all. Do you want to skip mechanic and just RP? You're welcome. Do you want to play using the game mechanics and raise you skills? You're welcome as well.
There's one thing I just want to clearly state: even if we try our best to make this game as immersive as possible and stick with the IC rule as much as we can (and I'm not saying there aren't mistakes and things that can't be done better) there is and there will always be (not just here but in every single game) some element not "realistic". This is and will always be impossible to eliminate. Afterall even reality is something which is perceived and subject to the observer's point of view.
With my suggestion, you would simply strengthen the action. That's it. Instead of paying 100 tria for 1 rank, you pay 1000 tria for 10 ranks (prices not to scale, obviously). No secret hook or fine print. You pick your number of training sessions, it spits out the costs and a confirmation window, and bam; now you go do what you do to go earn those ranks.
I understand your point of view and I appreciate your suggestion, however imo I'm feeling this would add even more complexity to the game, the code, the gameplay and I feel like we should make things more simple instead of the opposite.
-
The thing is, this is BOTH a role play game and a grinding game. I grind and role play, and grind to role play. Would you want someone that cannot cast a spell to teach you how to do it? There are those that want to play pretend and there are those that level their skills to play. Waesed gets a little peeved at those that interrupt his rp and want him to play by their rules. Please, do not expect me to role the dice to see if I even hit you. >:(
I do not think you understand my stance here. I'm asking to get rid of the middle man as you get your levels. That discussion has evolved into two; how to minimize trainer visits (which also inhibits getting ranks, albeit not especially critical) and if we need the middle man that is PP.
To minimize trainer visits, be allowed to train enough so that you may gain multiple ranks before returning. How this is more complicated than selecting the amount of PP you want to spend on trainers already is apparently beyond me.
To cut out the PP would be leaving players with tria and actual experience; instead of needing PP and tria, you would need only tria to train skills. After that, your actions progress your rank until you rank up.
I did not know that this game favored grinding as well. I was briefed heavily after I arrived on how ranks and such were very much secondary in the game than RP. That RP was the single most important element in the game. I was told mistakenly; grinding and RP are of equal importance. That is fine, I can accept that.
I understand your point of view and I appreciate your suggestion, however imo I'm feeling this would add even more complexity to the game, the code, the gameplay and I feel like we should make things more simple instead of the opposite.
Hey, I tried a solution. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
Just know that I'm of the mind that the elimination of PP and allowance of a greater number of rank training than one would result in simpler game-play. You said you got that, so I have nothing more to add.
Thanks for taking the time to read my attempted solutions and give feedback on them.
-
you're welcome :)
I did not know that this game favored grinding as well. I was briefed heavily after I arrived on how ranks and such were very much secondary in the game than RP. That RP was the single most important element in the game. I was told mistakenly; grinding and RP are of equal importance. That is fine, I can accept that.
[Brief :offtopic: ]
It's true we're putting a lot of emphasis on RP and this is for sure a very important factor, personally I still think it's the single most important element of the game. However there are players that skip "leveling" at all and peoples that feel like backing up their RP with actual game mechanics (and I'm trying to make so game mechanics support RP as much as possible). Personally I don't mind either way of playing the game and I feel like it's fine for everyone to choose the way they like best.
-
Personally I don't see the problem with PPs. It's just experience. You can spend it on skills or stats. Who cares? Yeah, you could get rid of them and training skills would be more or less the same, since the system was updated so that skill training grants enough experience to buy the next level. If you choose to blow all those PPs on stats instead, then you're out of luck. You'll have to get more experience to level your skill. That's just how it works. Nothing wrong with it.
If you get rid of PPs, skill training will be more or less unchanged but stat training will be pointless. Anyone with rich friends or a rich alt can get 400 in all stats in an hour. That's not how the system is supposed to work. You're supposed to have to consciously allocate your experience to stats/skills in order to develop your character. Changing the way stats are raised is an option, but that'll take a LOT more work. So the whole "just get rid of PPs and everything is better" argument is kinda silly. It requires so much more work than that.
About trainers, I would LOVE the ability to buy multiple levels at a time. Right now, having to track down the trainers for a given skill is the most frustrating part of the leveling system. ESPECIALLY when you're training multiple skills at once (like herbal/alchemy or a weapon and armor) and the trainers are in different cities. SOOO much wasted time and tria traveling back and forth...
Yes, having the choice to buy multiple skills at once slightly complicates the system, but I think the benefit to the players FAR outweighs this. Maybe a compromise: only have this option available once a skill reaches level 20 or so. This means new players won't have to worry about it. They can spend the early time learning the basics of training. Then once you hit a certain threshold the trainer can say something like "You've been progressing quite well. I think you should be able to handle multiple lessons at once." And from then on you can buy up to 5 at a time.
In terms of implementation, whenever you try to buy a skill that's already trained, you can have a pop-up box say something like "You have already received training for this skill level. Would you like to purchase the next one for XXXXXX tria and YYYY PPs?" If they say yes, you can have a little indicator next to the progress bar with a "x2" or something. If they buy more it'll say "x3", "x4", "x5" and each time they level up the number counts down. Once it hits zero they need more training.
-
If you get rid of PPs, skill training will be more or less unchanged but stat training will be pointless. Anyone with rich friends or a rich alt can get 400 in all stats in an hour. That's not how the system is supposed to work. You're supposed to have to consciously allocate your experience to stats/skills in order to develop your character. Changing the way stats are raised is an option, but that'll take a LOT more work. So the whole "just get rid of PPs and everything is better" argument is kinda silly. It requires so much more work than that.
You are right. I hadn't thought about stats at all.
First thing that comes to mind is to treat them like skills, but I doubt anyone would be comfortable with ranking up stats by doing things that coincide with the stat. Like reading books for intelligence, talking and questing for charisma, fighting for strength, running and jumping for endurance, etc. That would be a large change that'd take forever and need so much processing.
Thank you for pointing that out. That is quite the glaring flaw.
And your compromise for the leveling ranking system that was proposed is something I would be willing to get behind. Start it out later for higher ranks. I mean, I still don't see the complexity as being that big of a deal, but maybe I have too much faith in the human race.
-
My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. :P
Would the accrual of exp points for the expenditure of physical and / or mental stamina be an acceptable alternative to you? It would give noobs another way to gather PP beyond beating rats and kikiri. Even if it was only 20 exp points running from Hydlaa to Ojaveda it would at least symbolically add some training value to exercise. Just a thought...
Yeah, that would surely be an easier way to make it happen. The only drawback there is that you could then use those pps for other things. My feeling is that the exercise 'learn by doing' should only apply to certain stats.
This thread has evolved much better than ever expected. To be looking at the very mechanics of levelling is great. If everything could be tailored towards learn by doing that would go a long way to removing the grind. Things would just happen then with the only running around being the activity the player wanted to do.
As to tria for training... that only really affects noobs. When my character was going through a hard phase of that my alt that was training only in smelting would leave gold bricks as offerings on the alter where she would pick them up. The smitty character always had more than enough tria and pps to advance in his smitty skills. The tria part could be taken out of the equation to a great extent. She now always has more than enough tria for training.
It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.
[Edit: added more thoughts]
-
If playing a character and *doing* things causes growth or improvement, then shouldn't *not doing* cause a decline?
-
Riggy, I like the idea in theory, but it punishes people who don't have a lot of time to play, or people that choose to alternate between RP and grinding. All their progress could get erased just by RPing for a while.
I really like the idea of gaining progress toward stats when fighting, casting magic, running, mining, etc. if it supplements the current method (provides an alternative to paying for training). If it replaces it, I am vehemently opposed. Skill grinding is tedious enough. Stat grinding in addition would be needlessly painful.
-
I like the idea in theory, but it punishes people who don't have a lot of time to play
That's exactly why I pointed that out. :)
It does not make sense for my character to become flabby and weak because I (the player) stopped playing that character for a few years. It should not be assumed that because I have not played this character for a year, that this character has been sitting on his ass in some dark corner getting fat and losing his mind... and starving. It should be assumed that my character is silently doing the things he needs to get by.
On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character?
-
On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character?
Yes. Because that's how every MMO game has ever worked ever.
-
If playing a character and *doing* things causes growth or improvement, then shouldn't *not doing* cause a decline?
Yes. There are some games like this. Only hardcore, elitist gamers play them.
No. Most games use "learn by doing". Levels are not deducted because it's not realistic to do so (excluding biological skills like strength).
On the same token, if Nova plays the game 20 hours a day, and I play the game 1 hour per day, does that mean that his character gets 20 times more exercise than my character?
If you're striving for realism... He'd probably die of exhaustion.
-
My wish is simply that while running back and forth across the great expanse of the Dome that all that exercise ends up increasing my strength and endurance. Not to go to a trainer after getting PPs via other means but directly related to the exercise. My boots wear out; why not my muscles get stronger and my endurance increases? That was my wish, not to dis the current system or anything; but simply to add something to it. :P
Would the accrual of exp points for the expenditure of physical and / or mental stamina be an acceptable alternative to you? It would give noobs another way to gather PP beyond beating rats and kikiri. Even if it was only 20 exp points running from Hydlaa to Ojaveda it would at least symbolically add some training value to exercise. Just a thought...
Yeah, that would surely be an easier way to make it happen. The only drawback there is that you could then use those pps for other things. My feeling is that the exercise 'learn by doing' should only apply to certain stats.
After a little thought I realized that it might make more sense for the exertion to gain training points for stats that have already purchased training. Just like skills. It makes things more consistent.
This thread has evolved much better than ever expected. To be looking at the very mechanics of levelling is great. If everything could be tailored towards learn by doing that would go a long way to removing the grind. Things would just happen then with the only running around being the activity the player wanted to do.
As to tria for training... that only really affects noobs. When my character was going through a hard phase of that my alt that was training only in smelting would leave gold bricks as offerings on the alter where she would pick them up. The smitty character always had more than enough tria and pps to advance in his smitty skills. The tria part could be taken out of the equation to a great extent. She now always has more than enough tria for training.
It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.
But that gets back to the problem of there being a very limited number of volunteers to do this sort of thing. There is no "rules department" with a staff of full time paid programmers. So what can realistically be done is limited. I do like the thread though. It is an interesting and thoughtful discussion.
-
After a little thought I realized that it might make more sense for the exertion to gain training points for stats that have already purchased training. Just like skills. It makes things more consistent.
this could have been mostly made with the current system but then you would have to grind both stats and skills and I'm sure a lot of people would hate it.
It is finally dawning on me that to make PS enjoyable to a large number of players again the entire skill raising system needs to be not overhauled, but remade. This discussion is touching on points to that remaking which is great to see.
simply put: this is not going to happen.
Remaking the system from scratch would require a lot more resources than we have and after the code has been changed you'd have to change all the data which takes as much as ten times more than it takes to change and test the code.
-
Keep digging that grave, Eonwind.
-
I actually agree with Eonwind. People would be pissed if they had to grind stats. Progress is slow enough already.
The work it would take to overhaul the skills system completely, just to fit your idea of what's "good," is not worth the time. The skills system isn't what's wrong with the game. It's the fact that there aren't enough fun things to do with the skills once you have them. I'd much rather see the devs focus on events, minigames, challenges, etc. Increase the fun factor instead of just changing the way people grind.
-
People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.
My suggestion would be to leave the stat training as it is, but add the trickle so that stats go up as you RP. Depending on your activities, the stats go up on their own (strength with sword play, intelligence with reading, charisma with talking, etc.).
This way, the grinders can grind and the RPers will have stats that reflect how they RP.
I do not like the idea of a 'reverse effect' with inactivity. But that's just me; from a realistic perspective, that looks great.
simply put: this is not going to happen.
Remaking the system from scratch would require a lot more resources than we have and after the code has been changed you'd have to change all the data which takes as much as ten times more than it takes to change and test the code.
We may have to concede to the fact that something that 'will never happen' might just be the one necessary thing to occur for the situation to improve. Just because we don't have the resources doesn't mean that it isn't the solution.
But I want to hear your suggestions. What can we do, Eonwind, to solve this problem?
-
I think we should tear out the kitchen out of your house and put the bedroom there. What can we do to make this happen?
-
People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.
This is not the definition of grinding. Grinding is when you mine for 2 straight hours to rank up one level, or bash 138 trepor skulls in to raise an axe level. Buying stats is not the same as grinding skills at all.
-
I think we should tear out the kitchen out of your house and put the bedroom there. What can we do to make this happen?
That is not reflective of what I'm suggesting. If it cannot happen, it cannot happen.
But so far, a remaking of the skills seems to be the only solution that has been brought forward. If someone would suggest something that fixes the problem without remaking the skills (both for grinders and RPers), then I would happily get behind it. So far, it's just suggestions getting shot down.
A solution is the goal. If that solution is impossible, it's still the only solution, like it or not.
People already grind stats. It's the same grind you do when you grind for skills. PP + tria + trainer.
This is not the definition of grinding. Grinding is when you mine for 2 straight hours to rank up one level, or bash 138 trepor skulls in to raise an axe level. Buying stats is not the same as grinding skills at all.
Oh, I included the money-making and experience-earning in there with grinding. Because especially in early levels, you find yourself grinding more for PP and tria than you are actually grinding for that 'on-the-job' experience.
But if that's not what you are talking about, I apologize. I meant it all.
-
But so far, a remaking of the skills seems to be the only solution that has been brought forward. If someone would suggest something that fixes the problem without remaking the skills (both for grinders and RPers), then I would happily get behind it. So far, it's just suggestions getting shot down.
A solution is the goal. If that solution is impossible, it's still the only solution, like it or not.
Solution to what? The low player count? The "problems" with the skill system? It's not even unanimous that there is a problem with the skill system.
Like I already said...
The work it would take to overhaul the skills system completely, just to fit your idea of what's "good," is not worth the time. The skills system isn't what's wrong with the game. It's the fact that there aren't enough fun things to do with the skills once you have them. I'd much rather see the devs focus on events, minigames, challenges, etc. Increase the fun factor instead of just changing the way people grind.
-
Solution to making the skills and stats easily obtainable/equally useful to RPers and grinders alike.
And I would argue that your opinion on the 'fun factor' being what's making the game 'wrong' is wrong. I would take to believe that Role Play is the primary source of entertainment and more emphasis on mechanics and lore purely for the RP aspect would 'fix' the game faster than mini-games and events, which the players should be free to conjure up themselves anyway.
But that's just my opinion. I'm really posting to help make my first statement on this post a reality.
-
The "fun factor" bit is for people who grind, either in addition to or instead of RP. People who primarily RP don't need skill training. You don't need maxed out combat skills to type "/me slashes at XXX with his/her weapons."
-
Actually, my guild leader and I combat RPed using stats. We gauged the strength of individuals in combat and the effectiveness of attacks and defense based on your skills.
For example, during our battle the enemy cast Flame Burst. I cast it right back. We decided that, because their rank in the Red Way was higher, their Burst would blow through mine, with greatly lessened damage (they were, like, one rank above me in RW).
I speak only for myself onward when I say that use the descriptions of creatures and people, along with my intelligence to gauge how perceptive my character is, to dictate my character's next actions. I will certainly act tough and threaten some meager swordsman with my magic, but will treat Arch-Mages with caution and respect.
Not to mention judging when I should ICly run away or continue the fight.
You are right that stats aren't necessary to RP. But they make the experience far more immersive and realistic if we set those stats as our character's actual boundaries. Needing to work them up through experience and 'living their life' to become better really reflects actual reality.
I have 'more fun' with stats that way. And I'd prefer if RPers were also considered when you want to 'raise the fun factor'.
-
People who enjoy grinding are in the minority. They make up a good portion of PS's playerbase because grinding seems to be a focal point of this game. They are the few who can stomach the amount of time leveling takes. In any other game, you will rarely find these players. Most players do not enjoy grinding, so they will play games that don't require a lot of it. PS's playerbase is reflective of the issues with the game: there are easily pleased grinders and stubborn roleplayers. No casuals.
You reap what you sow.
-
I have 'more fun' with stats that way. And I'd prefer if RPers were also considered when you want to 'raise the fun factor'.
First of all, I'm not a "grinder." I train and I roleplay.
If you use stats like this, then what are you complaining about? Training is hard. But it's hard for EVERYONE. If you're comparing skills during your RP, does it matter if one person has 40 and the other has 20, or one person has 120 and the other has 60? The person with who spent more time training still has the advantage. The actual numbers don't mean anything ICly.
People who enjoy grinding are in the minority. They make up a good portion of PS's playerbase because grinding seems to be a focal point of this game. They are the few who can stomach the amount of time leveling takes. In any other game, you will rarely find these players. Most players do not enjoy grinding, so they will play games that don't require a lot of it. PS's playerbase is reflective of the issues with the game: there are easily pleased grinders and stubborn roleplayers. No casuals.
You reap what you sow.
I don't know what you mean by "No casuals." I grind and RP, and pretty much everyone I talk to in game is the same way.
But you're proving my point. Grinding is boring, but PS mechanics don't offer anything else. So instead of making grinding easier (which won't make it any less boring, guys... I don't see why people aren't understanding that) how about making fun things for people to actually DO with the skills they're training?
-
First of all, I'm not a "grinder." I train and I roleplay.
I never said you were. I make no distinction, for I discuss for the sake of the goal, not of another's preference of play.
If you use stats like this, then what are you complaining about? Training is hard. But it's hard for EVERYONE. If you're comparing skills during your RP, does it matter if one person has 40 and the other has 20, or one person has 120 and the other has 60? The person with who spent more time training still has the advantage. The actual numbers don't mean anything ICly.
You must really misunderstand me. I make no complaint. This thread was created because someone said that they would like to acquire stats by running and traveling. It evolved into a discussion about making the skills and and stats less complex, as to draw in players.
Training should consume time, but it should not unnecessarily consume time. I am of the opinion that allowing stats to build during activities for all players and keeping the ability to train stats with tria (and that PP, I guess) would make stats more useful and engaging for RPers.
This would let grinders get stats faster (but only by a little tiny bit, so they can still grind) and for RPers to get stats as they RP as whatever they are. So they DO NOT have to go grind. Just as grinders should not be forced to RP, Rpers should not be forced to grind.
And yes, comparing skills matter to me when playing RP. I gave you an example above. Let me give you another:
Suppose an Azure Mage attempts to cast an illusion of spiders crawling all over my body to keep me from fighting. His Azure Way skill is 50. My will power is 70. Common knowledge applies: it is far easier to obtain 70 will than 50 Azure Way. I mean, a lot easier. So, his number is scaled over mine. I see spiders all over me and freak the blast out, knocking over chairs, burning my own teammates, and eventually fall off the nearby cliff.
My character is not strong of will. My mind could not repel the mental attack. And the numbers say so.
Again, could we have ignored the stats and still played? Yes. However, it would require the exchange of experiences, information, and the step-by-step discussion of which person wins or loses. Pivotal talks, especially in a fight where the winner effectively wins the RP.
The numbers themselves mean nothing in-character. Same as the dice mean nothing in D&D and damage indicator numbers mean nothing in RPGs. Despite being able to ignore them, they really help, really immerse the players, and make RP a lot easier. Again, speaking for myself.
-
For example, during our battle the enemy cast Flame Burst. I cast it right back. We decided that, because their rank in the Red Way was higher, their Burst would blow through mine, with greatly lessened damage (they were, like, one rank above me in RW).
This is how I used to play. Sometimes this worked and sometimes it ended in sheer disaster. It raises a few problems, unfortunately:
1. It makes stats a requirement for fellow players - who may not wish to level.
2. Those with high stats and zero role play history for their character will have an unrealistic advantage. They would be able to just storm their way into an RP and take over using their stats to end any argument over who won or lost. I and others simply won't put up with that nonsense.
3. If a shaky old man puts a razor to a super amped up mage/warrior's neck and cuts his jugular with a tiny jerk of his wrist, reality dictates that he will kill the man, while stats and game mechanics dictate that he will be unable to score so much as a scratch - or that the well trained mage/warrior will be able to dodge or resist somehow.
This last example illustrates a gap in how stats mesh with rp. Yes, at some point, if you are going to play stats, then you need to make exceptions for exceptional cases. This leads me to my last point.
Lastly, people tend to be very protective of characters with high stats. This sometimes leads to all sorts of godmoding and ooc justifications for why they can't be harmed.
Ultimately, its on the player to play well regardless of their stats or lack thereof.
-
I agree with your post completely, save one point: that the system used is flawed of itself. Every instance you had shown was a problem wrought not of the system, but of the players playing. Let me answer each problem with my own opinionated answer:
All three cases are only in the case where this system is the only rule. As tman stated, the numbers need not matter. They only matter when it adds to the fun and immersiveness (<--- not a word, apparently). If it takes away, I would expect no single person to apply it in that situation. Just because it can be used in every situation does not mean it should be.
RP smart and with fun in mind.
If people have low stats, let them play anyway. RP that they have larger stats or simply hand-wave the stats completely.
If people are new and want to play larger roles, do the same as the above.
Your last example makes it sound like you have a slight misconception on how I believe stats should be used. So, I'll explain.
Stats are more indicators than concrete, comparative attributes in RPs of mine.
"More like guidelines, than actual rules." - Best Pirate
If in the case that an old man slits your throat, no amount of stats can save you from that. This is Role Play; we try be realistic here. Even in reality a buff, seasoned veteran would die to that stuff.
So, yes. Always exceptions with exceptional cases. That is what I like to think of as RP's flexibility; grand. It's whatever the players want it to be. It is up to the players to play regarding all available resources suitable for the situation.
Godmodders and OOC justifications are simply ignored, far as I'm concerned. Unless you specifically tell me you value your character's life more than your own, your character has a chance of getting their butt handed to them.
-
Suppose an Azure Mage attempts to cast an illusion of spiders crawling all over my body to keep me from fighting. His Azure Way skill is 50. My will power is 70. Common knowledge applies: it is far easier to obtain 70 will than 50 Azure Way. I mean, a lot easier. So, his number is scaled over mine. I see spiders all over me and freak the blast out, knocking over chairs, burning my own teammates, and eventually fall off the nearby cliff.
This isn't a problem with the stat system. This is just doing a comparison incorrectly, because the players are incorrectly translating the OOC number to an IC "trait." For a skill, a level of 50 shows a decent proficiency (far above the average citizen). A skill level of 100 is high enough that you're probably better at that skill than 95% of the dome. Whereas for stats, a level of 100 is roughly an average citizen level. You probably need to get up to 250-300 to be considered "very strong" or "very intelligent" or whatever. It's up to the players to know this and convert their skills/stats into character abilities accordingly.
For the record, you shouldn't ever compare a skill directly to a stat. Skills go up to 200 and stats go up to 400. So the scale is off immediately. If you REALLY want to compare a skill to a stat easily, just double the skill level. That's still not great, but it's ok.
A better system in that case would be to use magic skill to determine what spells the character can cast, and compare the attacker and defender's willpower directly to determine the effect. If you want you can roll dice with the sides equal to your willpower, and the higher number succeeds. So, if the attacker and defender have equal willpower, the spell will be a 50/50 chance. If the attacker has 160 willpower compared to your 80, their chance of success is much higher (75% if my simulations are accurate).
-
I don't know what you mean by "No casuals." I grind and RP, and pretty much everyone I talk to in game is the same way.
You are not a casual MMO player. Casuals rarely use the forum. Casuals never spend more than a couple hours in a game per day, and they usually do not play every day. Casuals, in most games, very rarely roleplay. They don't really care for the game. They just want to have fun.
Casuals should make up the largest percentage of a game's playerbase. In this game they don't, largely because it's so complex, training is too difficult, and the graphics are outdated (or not there at all).
But you're proving my point. Grinding is boring, but PS mechanics don't offer anything else. So instead of making grinding easier (which won't make it any less boring, guys... I don't see why people aren't understanding that) how about making fun things for people to actually DO with the skills they're training?
Grinding, by itself, is boring in any game. However, it does not have to take so much of our time. Boredom plays into this, of course, but it's not the sole reason. Grinding in this game is ridiculously hard, and only serious players will be determined enough to max levels.
Your suggestion is what I suggested earlier. (I wrote something about that earlier in this thread or another.)
-
This isn't a problem with the stat system. This is just doing a comparison incorrectly, because the players are incorrectly translating the OOC number to an IC "trait." For a skill, a level of 50 shows a decent proficiency (far above the average citizen). A skill level of 100 is high enough that you're probably better at that skill than 95% of the dome. Whereas for stats, a level of 100 is roughly an average citizen level. You probably need to get up to 250-300 to be considered "very strong" or "very intelligent" or whatever. It's up to the players to know this and convert their skills/stats into character abilities accordingly.
For the record, you shouldn't ever compare a skill directly to a stat. Skills go up to 200 and stats go up to 400. So the scale is off immediately. If you REALLY want to compare a skill to a stat easily, just double the skill level. That's still not great, but it's ok.
A better system in that case would be to use magic skill to determine what spells the character can cast, and compare the attacker and defender's willpower directly to determine the effect. If you want you can roll dice with the sides equal to your willpower, and the higher number succeeds. So, if the attacker and defender have equal willpower, the spell will be a 50/50 chance. If the attacker has 160 willpower compared to your 80, their chance of success is much higher (75% if my simulations are accurate).
That was not the point of the post at all. It was an example to show you that stats and skills (and their numbers) matter in deciding who wins and loses and stuff. That RPers, such as myself, actually use them for RPing.
As far as accuracy and all that, I explained quite thoroughly above that the stats system is very flexible. Exceptions are common and definitions are not concretely set. It IS up to the players on how to play. We both agree on that point. However, that means the more options available, the better. And if using stats to determine outcomes makes it more fun for the players, why not do that? Not everyone is going to be so thorough or care enough to get deep into percentages and numbers to get the most accurate sort of play. 'Casual' players, I would say.
Which, I must add:
You are not a casual MMO player. Casuals rarely use the forum. Casuals never spend more than a couple hours in a game per day, and they usually do not play every day. Casuals, in most games, very rarely roleplay. They don't really care for the game. They just want to have fun.
Casuals should make up the largest percentage of a game's playerbase. In this game they don't, largely because it's so complex, training is too difficult, and the graphics are outdated (or not there at all).
Describes casuals and why they aren't present very well.
Back to my original point, however, is the idea on making the stats rank up whilst RPing (just doing skills, really). As players do skills or actions, their stats should gain progress similar to training, but by a much smaller margin. By exp standards (200 per PP), I'd say around 20-60 exp for action. Or somewhere around 5 exp per sec for, like, reading or something continuous like that. Very small, but large enough to make a notable difference is the player plays their character a certain way. If a character likes to write, have them gain intelligence as long as they are typing on the page.
Also I must make a note that I am perfectly fine with adding fun things to do with the skills we train up.
-
That was not the point of the post at all. It was an example to show you that stats and skills (and their numbers) matter in deciding who wins and loses and stuff. That RPers, such as myself, actually use them for RPing.
I get what you're saying and I agree with you, because I like (and choose) to roleplay a character with similar abilities to what my skills/stats dictate. But from what I've gathered in the time I've been playing and reading the forums, most RPers tend to ignore the stat and skill systems entirely. It isn't just limited to combat. People want to play master chefs but not take the time to train cooking/baking. People want to play a healer/doctor without taking the time to train magic or herbal. Some people just like making a bunch of characters but don't develop them with any in-game skills.
My point is, if you find someone who also wants to base stuff on stats, great. But don't expect it to be the norm.
You are not a casual MMO player. Casuals rarely use the forum. Casuals never spend more than a couple hours in a game per day, and they usually do not play every day. Casuals, in most games, very rarely roleplay. They don't really care for the game. They just want to have fun.
Casuals should make up the largest percentage of a game's playerbase. In this game they don't, largely because it's so complex, training is too difficult, and the graphics are outdated (or not there at all).
I've been playing for almost 3 years any my highest stat on any character is 200. My highest combat skill is 77. I've never had more than 300,000 tria on me at any one time. That seems pretty casual to me...
Back to my original point, however, is the idea on making the stats rank up whilst RPing (just doing skills, really). As players do skills or actions, their stats should gain progress similar to training, but by a much smaller margin. By exp standards (200 per PP), I'd say around 20-60 exp for action. Or somewhere around 5 exp per sec for, like, reading or something continuous like that. Very small, but large enough to make a notable difference is the player plays their character a certain way. If a character likes to write, have them gain intelligence as long as they are typing on the page.
I'm all for this. Mining should give small bonuses to strength. Running to endurance. Melee/knives/LA practice to agility. Spells to mental stats (each Way has a governing stat, right?), etc.
I just don't want these to be the ONLY way to raise stats. That would make training take even longer and be even more painful.
-
I get what you're saying and I agree with you, because I like (and choose) to roleplay a character with similar abilities to what my skills/stats dictate. But from what I've gathered in the time I've been playing and reading the forums, most RPers tend to ignore the stat and skill systems entirely. It isn't just limited to combat. People want to play master chefs but not take the time to train cooking/baking. People want to play a healer/doctor without taking the time to train magic or herbal. Some people just like making a bunch of characters but don't develop them with any in-game skills.
My point is, if you find someone who also wants to base stuff on stats, great. But don't expect it to be the norm.
I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
I'm all for this. Mining should give small bonuses to strength. Running to endurance. Melee/knives/LA practice to agility. Spells to mental stats (each Way has a governing stat, right?), etc.
I just don't want these to be the ONLY way to raise stats. That would make training take even longer and be even more painful.
Certainly not! I stated several times that the way you train for stats now should stay the same, only adding this aspect to the current system.
Thank you for reading and for your feedback on the idea. I hope I contributed more than irritated; I saw myself starting to repeat annoyingly there.
-
I stated several times that the way you train for stats now should stay the same, only adding this aspect to the current system.
That was my original point in requesting some learn by doing as well. We have seemed to have taken a very interesting and worthwhile round about discussion yet with some consensus at last.
-
My suggestion would be to leave the stat training as it is, but add the trickle so that stats go up as you RP. Depending on your activities, the stats go up on their own (strength with sword play, intelligence with reading, charisma with talking, etc.).
This way, the grinders can grind and the RPers will have stats that reflect how they RP.
how can a computer understand what skills or stats you're using while RPing? :P
this is simply impossible from a technical point of view and in fact I've never heard about a game with such feature.
But I want to hear your suggestions. What can we do, Eonwind, to solve this problem?
I don't have a magic wand but my thoughts on the subject of improving the "learn by doing" and the need to lower unnecessary trips to trainers, all without remaking the current system are:
- having one or more trainers able to train you in the most common skills (especially in the 0-50 range as it's more annoying to frequently sotp an activity to travel far when you take less time to train) next to the areas where players can train more (an example could be the arena)
- each time you raise a skill by 1 there is an associated stats that will be risen by 1 with no further need to practice or anything. I'm not sure it's a good or desirable solution but it's the only way I see to keep the current system (where you can buy stats) and avoid requiring to grind stats too to get practice.
The work it would take to overhaul the skills system completely, just to fit your idea of what's "good," is not worth the time. The skills system isn't what's wrong with the game. It's the fact that there aren't enough fun things to do with the skills once you have them. I'd much rather see the devs focus on events, minigames, challenges, etc. Increase the fun factor instead of just changing the way people grind.
tman: it's what we're trying to do but I cannot disclose a lot (not because I want to hide what I'm working on but it will take a lot of time and I don't want to cause too much expectations).
-
Btw Eonwind I know you don't hear this enough but thanks for taking the time to respond. I know devs in most games get a lot of flak from the community for not listening to players or taking suggestions seriously. But I feel like you guys (you and Ven in particular) are making a good effort to reach out and have a dialogue with us.
So, thanks for that. I know progress is slow, but it's coming. \\o//
-
Eonwind is different because he actually plays the game.
-
That was my original point in requesting some learn by doing as well. We have seemed to have taken a very interesting and worthwhile round about discussion yet with some consensus at last.
I know that you had the same thought. It was with tman that I had the lengthiest discussion. He did not understand my stance. Now that he does, I'm content.
how can a computer understand what skills or stats you're using while RPing? :P
this is simply impossible from a technical point of view and in fact I've never heard about a game with such feature.
Does the game not currently do that very thing? When you hit a rat, and you paid for training, does the green bar not expand? While people RP, they use skills and do actions, correct? Let the stats increase by a small amount every time, as was originally suggested. Do not replace the system, but add the feature alongside the current stuff.
Stat increases as you do activities, as stated many times, in agreement with both tman and novacanadian. If you cannot understand what I'm trying to say, then I apologize for my poor explanation. I would inquire to tman or nova for further explanation. Perhaps they can explain it better than I.
I don't have a magic wand but my thoughts on the subject of improving the "learn by doing" and the need to lower unnecessary trips to trainers, all without remaking the current system are:
- having one or more trainers able to train you in the most common skills (especially in the 0-50 range as it's more annoying to frequently sotp an activity to travel far when you take less time to train) next to the areas where players can train more (an example could be the arena)
- each time you raise a skill by 1 there is an associated stats that will be risen by 1 with no further need to practice or anything. I'm not sure it's a good or desirable solution but it's the only way I see to keep the current system (where you can buy stats) and avoid requiring to grind stats too to get practice.
I simply disagree that any modification to the current system would do anything but ease the pain of what's happening.
But, I learn you are a developer! I did not know that and I now understand your very staunch defense of the current system as it is and your complete confidence that changing it would take too long and consist of too much work and resources.
But while I understand, that doesn't change my opinion. I believe a entire change is in order.
But as with every game forum I've been to, I'm not a Dev and certainly don't understand the inner workings of the system. You know what you're doing. I will watch the player count and wait for the solutions and fixes.
-
how can a computer understand what skills or stats you're using while RPing? :P
this is simply impossible from a technical point of view and in fact I've never heard about a game with such feature.
Does the game not currently do that very thing? When you hit a rat, and you paid for training, does the green bar not expand? While people RP, they use skills and do actions, correct? Let the stats increase by a small amount every time, as was originally suggested. Do not replace the system, but add the feature alongside the current stuff.
Stat increases as you do activities, as stated many times, in agreement with both tman and novacanadian. If you cannot understand what I'm trying to say, then I apologize for my poor explanation. I would inquire to tman or nova for further explanation. Perhaps they can explain it better than I.
When people say "RP" in regards to the game, the vast majority of the time they are usually talking about using "/me" and "/my" to describe their character's actions. So no, skills don't raise when you "RP" in that sense.
When you train skills that are aligned with what your character would naturally do, this can also be considered "roleplaying" in the sense that you're playing the role of your character but people don't generally refer to this as RP. They call this "training" or "grinding."
-
Btw Eonwind I know you don't hear this enough but thanks for taking the time to respond. I know devs in most games get a lot of flak from the community for not listening to players or taking suggestions seriously. But I feel like you guys (you and Ven in particular) are making a good effort to reach out and have a dialogue with us.
So, thanks for that. I know progress is slow, but it's coming. \\o//
:thumbup:
-
So, Eonwind or Ven, is there any consensus? Is the natural improvement of stats during other activities something that the devs want to add? If so we can keep debating the best way to implement this and if not then we can stop wasting our time.
-
@tman: the problem is not the consensus, this task has been suggested by me and approved by Talad two years ago. I've also given a task to a prospect to match possible connections between skill/activity --> related stats two, the problem is technical, how to implement the thing without making it training stats more annoying or difficult.
-
Are you, the Devs, having issues with the natural improvement of stats through activity as a result of thinking it too complex for the players or too complex for the code?
You say the problem is technical, but then say that the issue is the complexity of it for players.
If it's too complex for code, there's no use in continuing. If it's merely the opinion of complexity for players, I would like to continue trying to convince others that it's not.