PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Illysia on September 15, 2014, 04:11:40 am
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This idea is just nagging at the back of my head and I can't drop it. For a long time, I didn't realize just how different some RP styles were simply because you don't think about it as long as things are working. But now, I realize that when people RP they are often trying to get a wide variety of things out of it. I think better understanding different RPing objectives would help people to entice more people to join when trying to make group RPs.
This is what I have so far, please feel free to add to it and comment on it:
Character action
Personality Interaction
Literary Storytelling
Seat of the pant reaction
Character development
-Sub: Fulfills a Character's Personal Goals (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41845.msg473164#msg473164) (Aramara)
Story Development
Genre?
RP Combat
RP that is not Dependent on Reading Descriptions (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41845.msg473060#msg473060) (cdmoreland)
Settings Development (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41845.msg473077#msg473077) (Eonwind)
Dynamic Player Run World (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41845.msg473105#msg473105) (Aramara)
Deductive Puzzle Solving (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41845.msg473157#msg473157) (Kaerli)
After watching the talk The Clues to A Great Story (http://www.ted.com/talks/andrew_stanton_the_clues_to_a_great_story) I am really interested in how to integrate the elements he spoke of into RPs that can draw people in to the point of caring. But, I feel this can't be done without better understanding of what uniquely RP elements must be addressed.
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This is just my take. I can't take time to read everyone's desc so if it must be read let people know before you interact with them like"[please read desc]" so others know. But I must say that I won't spend the time to read a desc that runs on and on.
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So maybe in your case, it would help if people include the relevant or most noticeable parts in an emote from the beginning? Sometimes, when I remember that is, I'll put in an emote about Danao's deep voice as I know many haven't read his description to know he's well a he. :)
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That's exactly what you did, Illysia, the first time I met Danao. :)
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Lately I've been forgetting. I should probably make sure I do that. :sweatdrop:
However, I'm surprised more people haven't commented? I'm sure I haven't compiled a mostly definitive list. But I figure that this is part of the block to seeing more groups of RPers coalescing in the streets. People pass by chances to RP because they aren't getting enough of what they like to convince them to stop doing whatever else they were up to.
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What you might consider chances to roleplay could be too boring for other players.
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Perhaps, but even just speaking to another character doesn't have to devolve into how's your mother RP if you can incorporate a theme, a goal, and an interesting character. However, I don't see how taking a chance on RP that could be boring is worse than staring at the same crafting interface or whacking the same creatures for hours on end.
Perhaps learning what others are looking for will help us broaden our horizons wide enough to be able to enjoy more kinds of RP than we normally do, and if more people spend more time RPing everyone is more likely to find the RP they find stimulating. But, passing up on RP because it's not the RP you want can unfortunately lead to you not getting to what you want simply because you pass up opportunities to turn an RP into the RP you want.
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I give you another RP objective: "Settings Development". Albeit settings is developed by devs it can be seen as an achievement by some players to create a rp event, a magical research or just something that will be remembered for a long time by others players and will (somehow) shape the world (or its hystory) in way or the other. Even being the creator of a new (RPed) spell after a RP research can be seen as an achievement.
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Ok, but now how would a regular player work that goal into an RP for other players? Generally, most players don't enjoy enough widespread use of something they RP in order to make it shape the world.
However, now that I think about it, I guess that is the answer to my own question. You simply have to find a popular enough RP item or scenario. For me, the only thing I think I've ever done was come up with lacka and other liquors for the RCD when I was working there and now it seems to be popular enough to where it is still in use aside from me. Lolitra did it pretty often and hers was popular enough to make it legitimately into settings. I think LigH mentioned once that Roltoks were something of her creation.
So now the question becomes, what is the niche that needs to be filled to find the next player created future settings mainstay? :D
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i think there was once a push to get more player written books in jayose's library. not sure what ever came of it, but I submitted a few.
the creation of longstanding influential guilds i think would also fit under this objective. the explorer's tent near harn's and their camp also count. player run enterprises like the RCD and Museum surely count as long as they are in operation. it was long before my time, but wasn't kada el a PC?
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Yeah, she was. However, the push for books is still on going. But in a way writing books is different that what I am trying to get at as that can be done completely aside from RP. All you need is a good idea and then you can write about it on your own.
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i think one of the things that first enticed me to play this game was the promise of being able to participate in and have an impact on the history of the game world, that the game world existed in a state of ever evolving flux as does the real world. of course, that isn't the state of the game, but I hope that that is still the vision the developers are working towards. Ideally, government positions wouldn't be held by static NPCs but PCs could actively campaign for and hold office. The heirloom family names and dynasties so often RPd within guilds could actually mean something, territorial disputes and resultant guild conflicts could be documented and become part of the world history and lore. Trade organizations, monopolies, could rise and fall in a dynamic active economy. One political ruler may promote the creation of public works, calling for architectural designs and the building labor of other PCs. The next may squander the government coffers through corruption, resulting in a coup...
of course, none of this is currently possible with the state of the game and the activity of the player base, but, one can hope.
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Actually, it is all possible with the game as it is. What is lacking is a motivated enough player base with enough active players to sustain it. I tried that very thing in another game and found that it all fell flat simply because many would say it was a good idea but few were willing to work to sustain it. Most people want to sit back and watch, not prop up the incredibly burdensome system that goes with it. What happens is that the players that are working behind the scenes burnout from work overload... and too many anarchist just wanting to destroy it to be contrary. :p
But that is still another goal. Not necessarily always trying to long term affect the settings but have a dynamic player run world. I was really happy when the Stonehead Tavern, the Explorer's Camp, and the Red Crystal Den were being run by players and had active patronage.
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Actually, it is all possible with the game as it is. What is lacking is a motivated enough player base with enough active players to sustain it. I tried that very thing in another game and found that it all fell flat simply because many would say it was a good idea but few were willing to work to sustain it. Most people want to sit back and watch, not prop up the incredibly burdensome system that goes with it. What happens is that the players that are working behind the scenes burnout from work overload... and too many anarchist just wanting to destroy it to be contrary. :p
But that is still another goal. Not necessarily always trying to long term affect the settings but have a dynamic player run world. I was really happy when the Stonehead Tavern, the Explorer's Camp, and the Red Crystal Den were being run by players and had active patronage.
The key to this is to harness the anarchists through clever game and lore design. ;) (Hint: the GoonSwarm Federation's not going anywhere.)
Going back to the OP though: I find that I'm after a mix of detail-oriented play (including RP combat) and cleverness that relies on leveraging the details of the problems it confronts. While non-combat solutions to problems are fine by me, full-bore diplomacy isn't: I'd rather focus on getting people to emotionally disconnect from the problems that brought them to this point than try to come up with a solution to the problem that takes their emotions into account.
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So deductive puzzle solving?
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So deductive puzzle solving?
Quite a bit of it, yes, whether it be in a traditional puzzle context, or a treatment of combat as a puzzle-solving exercise.
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Hmm. While it is obvious that puzzle solving has wide appeal, it is always hard to form puzzles that people actually want to unravel. I wonder if there is anything on how to create such puzzles be it for dungeon masters, writers, or anyone else? I guess the even bigger question is how to make people care enough to engage with the puzzle?
And that begs a bigger question yet, "What is it that makes you care about an RP regardless of the type of RP it is?"
For me, the best part of any RP is observing a personality individually and how it interacts with a group or someone else. I almost don't care what is going on as long as you get to see distinct personalities forced to act and react given some sort of catalyst. It's personality chemistry. :D
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And that begs a bigger question yet, "What is it that makes you care about an RP regardless of the type of RP it is?"
whether or not it sparks the interest of the character i'm playing.
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Quote from: Aramara Meibi
Quote from: Illysia
And that begs a bigger question yet, "What is it that makes you care about an RP regardless of the type of RP it is?"
whether or not it sparks the interest of the character i'm playing.
I think this touches a very important point; things would probably be easier if considered from a character (as opposed to a player) point of view.
It seems to me that most people in this discussion are entirely absorbed in the metagaming aspect of things, which I think is the least direct (and therefore least reliable) way to consider roleplay.
I don't think people are consciously 'trying to get something out of' RP, other than pleasure, entertainment et cætera.
I believe it would be much more intuitive to consider what would engage a character in events, as opposed to what would engage a player in a RP. Players probably are more likely to let their character express themselves, and behave according to their nature, rather than actively try to attain their own objectives.
As I see it, the important part is to find a motivation suiting the character that is played. If a player feels his character engaged in something, they'll most surely go along.
Now if I had to find a thing that, as a player, I like in RP, it would probably be the writing; how the scenario was made, mostly if there are creative elements to it, an 'universe' behind it, how it all holds together, if it feels natural and possible, that sort of things. And of course the 'writing' (by lack of a better word) of each character involved.
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Easier in terms of making your own character act but not necessarily easier when trying to get other characters to play along.
When the player gets bored, it doesn't matter what the character does or does not like. This is how RPers often end up leaving, across a variety of games. They get tired of struggling OOCly and give up. While a character centric approach may or may not be more useful, you have to consider both aspects. The people in this thread are RPers, they brought these things up because they consider these metagame aspects when RPing...
However, fulfilling a character's personal goals is a reasonable objective from an individual perspective, but how does a player do that for other characters, particularly with characters they don't already know or have a connection to? Part of the reason for the metagame aspect of this thread is that I am asking in regards to creating RPs for groups of characters that may not have prior connections to each other which makes it easier to lure the player's interest than to fulfill the character's unknown goals. Deep connection take time, but you only have a short period of time to convince someone to jump in.
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i've said it before in other conversations, but i'll reiterate it here: When playing PS, I was always engaged in RP, meaning, everything done in the main channel, or on screen, was in character. Take for example, Aramara spent many hours at the furnaces and forge learning the art of blacksmithing because she wanted to make and sell shields. She was inspired to do so because of a story her mother used to tell her of a magical shield that was a gift of Xiosia. She also felt it was part of her duty to outfit the many adventurers of Hydlaa with a means of protection. This was all part of her character, and written into her backstory, and dictated how I, the player, interacted with the game.
Now, even while grinding away with the unintuitive crafting interface, I was still RPing, describing the actions she was taking while working in Main. Most often than not, Ara would strike up conversations with those working around her. It was her way of catching up on all the gossip. I feel that this kind of approach is how i derived enjoyment out of this game.
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Ah, that makes sense. Well that has only started working for me recently. In the past it became a guaranteed way to get ignored or clear an area of other players, so it got me out of the habit for a long time. But it does get more response now even if that typically doesn't lead to more than brief interactions. However, I don't think that method will work for say a plot or an event. It's better for more casual RP encounters but as more people stop to RP that will be enough to provide a drive into longer and more in depth RPs.
After thought:
Aha! I got it. The way you draw in the other people in this way is to give your character an issue, one that may actually be of concern to other characters or at least interesting, then hint at it but don't be too obvious about what "it" actually is. Let the other characters pursue their own paths of investigation withhold just enough information so that the player always feels that they are just on the edge of figuring out what is going on even if they aren't even close yet. If you can catch the initial interest of the other characters and their players, then unraveling the mystery is enough to hold them in the RP. :D
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Ah, that makes sense. Well that has only started working for me recently. In the past it became a guaranteed way to get ignored or clear an area of other players, so it got me out of the habit for a long time. But it does get more response now even if that typically doesn't lead to more than brief interactions. However, I don't think that method will work for say a plot or an event. It's better for more casual RP encounters but as more people stop to RP that will be enough to provide a drive into longer and more in depth RPs.
After thought:
Aha! I got it. The way you draw in the other people in this way is to give your character an issue, one that may actually be of concern to other characters or at least interesting, then hint at it but don't be too obvious about what "it" actually is. Let the other characters pursue their own paths of investigation withhold just enough information so that the player always feels that they are just on the edge of figuring out what is going on even if they aren't even close yet. If you can catch the initial interest of the other characters and their players, then unraveling the mystery is enough to hold them in the RP. :D
This sort of coy behavior from characters is a major gear-grinder for me, actually. It boils down to a "do you really want your problem solved?" question, which can easily drive a character like mine straight out of your plot because your character(s) are being too obstinate about what's actually going on; either that, or you'll start seeing Kaerli basically trying to force the information out of you. (Mind-reading, divination, etal)
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Hmm. While it is obvious that puzzle solving has wide appeal, it is always hard to form puzzles that people actually want to unravel. I wonder if there is anything on how to create such puzzles be it for dungeon masters, writers, or anyone else? I guess the even bigger question is how to make people care enough to engage with the puzzle?
And that begs a bigger question yet, "What is it that makes you care about an RP regardless of the type of RP it is?"
For me, the best part of any RP is observing a personality individually and how it interacts with a group or someone else. I almost don't care what is going on as long as you get to see distinct personalities forced to act and react given some sort of catalyst. It's personality chemistry. :D
For me, its solving the issues it raises, which is a large part of where my trouble with other RPers lies; they consider this to be such a trespass on the story they are trying to create that they do not consider it legitimate RP, even though the character is behaving in a manner consistent with their background, training, and prior behavior.
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The problem typically stems from trying to force a solution before other players have finished dealing with the consequences of the problem. If you solve a problem as soon as it arises, it never has a chance to become consequential and move RP.
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how do you, the player, know that you, the character, has solved the problem? people aren't math problems, they don't only have one clear cut solution. and most people with issues, well, it takes a long time for them to work them out.
you can't have "my character automatically is always right and correct about everything" as your character description. it's childish and godmodding.
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how do you, the player, know that you, the character, has solved the problem? people aren't math problems, they don't only have one clear cut solution. and most people with issues, well, it takes a long time for them to work them out.
you can't have "my character automatically is always right and correct about everything" as your character description. it's childish and godmodding.
On the other hand, most RPers expect the wrongness to be handed to them on a platter, instead of trying to force errors with tricks, traps, etal.
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This sort of coy behavior from characters is a major gear-grinder for me, actually. It boils down to a "do you really want your problem solved?" question, which can easily drive a character like mine straight out of your plot because your character(s) are being too obstinate about what's actually going on; either that, or you'll start seeing Kaerli basically trying to force the information out of you. (Mind-reading, divination, etal)
Being blunt, you are not a great problem-solver. Solving a problem requires more than identifying the problem. I've enjoyed most of the roleplays I've had with you, but other people tend to just think you're forcing yourself upon them (which I honestly think is fun, but other people don't). Ironically, you have a problem that you cannot solve, Kaerli. People can tell you that you have a problem, but no one knows how to help you solve it.
I need brain fuel. bbl
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Aside from all the different RP styles I think that the time one can spend on PS plays a big part in how certain scenario's are approached. Once you get involved in an RP, speaking for myself, you also want to know how it ends. In many ways it's like reading a good book, sometimes you just don't want to stop reading until the story ends.
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So you mean seeking the end of the story as an objective with time as a qualifier?
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In a sense, yes.
I think for players that are less active it will be harder to involve themselves (or feel involved) in complex or long RP's. Ofcourse you can read posts on the forum or hear about the continuation of a RP IG, but this does have a different 'feel' than actively taking part in a RP.
It should be quite interesting to find a way that satisfies both RP'ers that are very active and those who aren't very active, also for events done by GM's that are split in multiple parts. I can imagine that it must be quite disappointing if you missed Part 1, but participate in Part 2 only to find out you don't really know what is going on.
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As someone coming back in that position, I believe the problem is not so much picking up an RP in the middle but being allowed in. I think as long as people are actually allowed to jump in an RP in the middle and their presence not merely tolerate, it is not that hard to pick up and go. It just requires that the RPer coming in the middle be willing to work a little harder to catch up. Also, that the players who have been in it on from the start be willing to ease the newcomer in to the plot. An infodump is not always the right springboard into an RP. A more natural easing in is needed and a realistic view of how often both parties will actually get to interact with each other.
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This sort of coy behavior from characters is a major gear-grinder for me, actually. It boils down to a "do you really want your problem solved?" question, which can easily drive a character like mine straight out of your plot because your character(s) are being too obstinate about what's actually going on; either that, or you'll start seeing Kaerli basically trying to force the information out of you. (Mind-reading, divination, etal)
Being blunt, you are not a great problem-solver. Solving a problem requires more than identifying the problem. I've enjoyed most of the roleplays I've had with you, but other people tend to just think you're forcing yourself upon them (which I honestly think is fun, but other people don't). Ironically, you have a problem that you cannot solve, Kaerli. People can tell you that you have a problem, but no one knows how to help you solve it.
I need brain fuel. bbl
Define "forcing yourself upon them"...? (And I agree that I have a problem that's not within the natural scope of what I do know how to solve; my problem with problem-solving is more that I misread the constraints than anything else, I suspect.)
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You play someones character for them. You have an action that forces the player into an RP that you control and has an outcome you desire. Instead of allowing a bit of friction back and forth and eventually a solution, there's a dominate action early on that you give that doesn't allow for much further RP outside of what you already RPed for the other player.
I've also noticed you are quick to respond/interact before allowing another player to play their character. I understand you have a powerful character and you want that character to remain powerful but realize it can be fun too if you don't just dominate everything. I think you'd be surprised. Even the mighty do not get what they desire all the time.
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What Bonedaf said... He said it better than I could.
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You play someones character for them. You have an action that forces the player into an RP that you control and has an outcome you desire. Instead of allowing a bit of friction back and forth and eventually a solution, there's a dominate action early on that you give that doesn't allow for much further RP outside of what you already RPed for the other player.
I've also noticed you are quick to respond/interact before allowing another player to play their character. I understand you have a powerful character and you want that character to remain powerful but realize it can be fun too if you don't just dominate everything. I think you'd be surprised. Even the mighty do not get what they desire all the time.
Are you saying that it's a problem with the phraseology of my actions outside of combat going too far towards assuming completion? Or is there something else going on?
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Perhaps this might help you understand, Kaerli:
"(20:54:21) Kaerli sheathes her own anlace, looking over his dagger closely [do you mind giving me a more detailed description of it?]
(20:55:17) Akavar says: The handle has enchanted opals which serve to enhance my spells in certain areas.
(20:56:11) Kaerli nods "I'm familiar with the practice myself, and have handled quite a few weapons with various enchantments on them. Still doesn't change the fact it's made from cheap steel...if you can even call it steel, that is."
(20:56:29) Akavar says: I would like one of better quality.
(20:56:53) Kaerli gives Akavar a bit of a predatory grin. [re: the weapon description, I was more asking for size/shape/styling than enchantments, etal.]
(20:57:27) Akavar says: [oh, I see. ]
(20:57:42) Kaerli nods some, then shakes her head with a small frown "That's a good idea; sadly, smiths here have not even come close to mastering the art of incorporating magic into their weapons."
(20:58:04) Kaerli says: [are you familiar with in-character vs. out-of-character chat btw?]
(20:58:35) Akavar says: It is just a run-of-the-mill dagger other than the enchantment. I have seen better butcher knives.
(20:58:53) Kaerli says: So, you have to decide: fancy opals with Dark Way magic, or solid steel that can serve you well for cycles to come."
My character would not have known the difference in daggers, quality of steel or handles. He was training daggers at a very low level. It seemed to me that you were forcing rp. You need to let others be themselves. As a carpenter in rl I can tell you all about the type of hammer I am using, whether it is a ripping or claw hammer, used for framing or finish, or the type of handle and the benefits of that type. Had you asked about magic I (Akavar) would have answered in a very different manner.
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Perhaps this might help you understand, Kaerli:
"(20:54:21) Kaerli sheathes her own anlace, looking over his dagger closely [do you mind giving me a more detailed description of it?]
(20:55:17) Akavar says: The handle has enchanted opals which serve to enhance my spells in certain areas.
(20:56:11) Kaerli nods "I'm familiar with the practice myself, and have handled quite a few weapons with various enchantments on them. Still doesn't change the fact it's made from cheap steel...if you can even call it steel, that is."
(20:56:29) Akavar says: I would like one of better quality.
(20:56:53) Kaerli gives Akavar a bit of a predatory grin. [re: the weapon description, I was more asking for size/shape/styling than enchantments, etal.]
(20:57:27) Akavar says: [oh, I see. ]
(20:57:42) Kaerli nods some, then shakes her head with a small frown "That's a good idea; sadly, smiths here have not even come close to mastering the art of incorporating magic into their weapons."
(20:58:04) Kaerli says: [are you familiar with in-character vs. out-of-character chat btw?]
(20:58:35) Akavar says: It is just a run-of-the-mill dagger other than the enchantment. I have seen better butcher knives.
(20:58:53) Kaerli says: So, you have to decide: fancy opals with Dark Way magic, or solid steel that can serve you well for cycles to come."
My character would not have known the difference in daggers, quality of steel or handles. He was training daggers at a very low level. It seemed to me that you were forcing rp. You need to let others be themselves. As a carpenter in rl I can tell you all about the type of hammer I am using, whether it is a ripping or claw hammer, used for framing or finish, or the type of handle and the benefits of that type. Had you asked about magic I (Akavar) would have answered in a very different manner.
So, basically, its that she doesn't pick up on the social cues regarding topic of conversation...
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I'm not sure, I think it's just how you view RP (and you're not unique in this way). You see RP as a challenge and an opportunity to show off how better your character is than others. To put it bluntly, and perhaps a little harshly, some of your actions are godmodding because you don't give the other player an option to react. And just the general feel seems like you have little interest in development of a story and more in just showing off how much of a badass your character is.
Using this as a transition back to the topic, I think a lot of problems with RP come when players fall in love with their character rather than the story. This creates a position where players don't want bad things, or really anything but great things, to happen to their character. They stop playing their character with natural flaws and believable strengths. There's little development and story. It's really just a bunch of individual characters, there's no plot to interact or bring people together. No adversity. No friction.
If anyone were to write a book about your character would it be an interesting read? Would there be themes and morals of the story? Or just a list of their victories and exploits?
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So, basically, its that she doesn't pick up on the social cues regarding topic of conversation...
is that a question? if so, then the fault is not with the character. a character is more than just a list of skills and stats. if you treat the character as merely a digital avatar through which to interact with people in a virtual world, and then find that you are having trouble interacting with people, once again, it isn't the fault of the avatar. breathe life into your character. for instance, decide whether or not they have trouble reading social cues and then role play that out. make that an obstacle they have to overcome, and then maybe other characters might offer help in overcoming that obstacle. see? there's a means for engaging other players in RP.
now, to return to the OP, in my time playing I've participated in a wide variety of RP situations, from crime solving, romantic relationships, tense diplomatic situations, religious ceremonies, idle gossip, workplace situations, bizarre drinking games, brutal combat, espionage, ritual homicide... the list goes on. the point i think is to really submit yourself over to the character you play, think like them, act like them, speak like them. they should have a life of their own, and it should be a life of fulfillment, right? or else, really what's the point? yeah, i think the story that I watched play out with my characters was hella interesting, very dynamic, with high points and low points, victories and defeats, friends, enemies, even a nemesis, and tons of development throughout. i had a good time, 's all i'm sayin'.
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I'm not sure, I think it's just how you view RP (and you're not unique in this way). You see RP as a challenge and an opportunity to show off how better your character is than others. To put it bluntly, and perhaps a little harshly, some of your actions are godmodding because you don't give the other player an option to react. And just the general feel seems like you have little interest in development of a story and more in just showing off how much of a badass your character is.
Using this as a transition back to the topic, I think a lot of problems with RP come when players fall in love with their character rather than the story. This creates a position where players don't want bad things, or really anything but great things, to happen to their character. They stop playing their character with natural flaws and believable strengths. There's little development and story. It's really just a bunch of individual characters, there's no plot to interact or bring people together. No adversity. No friction.
If anyone were to write a book about your character would it be an interesting read? Would there be themes and morals of the story? Or just a list of their victories and exploits?
First off: I find that there's always something a character can do to react to the actions Kaerli takes; it may just be off in left field (i.e. too forceful or out-of-scope for the other player). Or is it my fault for presenting a character with a situation their player cannot react to? (A good example of this would be the time Kaerli was laid out by HF poisoning...most of the players had not the foggiest clue what was happening with her.)
Regarding adversity, I find that people want to create adversity, but simply are not willing to put in the work I see as needed to be a determined, effective adversary (vs. a melodramatic one). Part of the point behind the way I play is that I respond to the amount of effort people put into opposing my character; pushovers will get pushed over and left by the side of the road, whereas an adversary willing to fully engage in the mindgame over an extended period of time will be rewarded for their efforts.
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When things like this happen:
[Player one] simply stops the sword cold with her right forearm, the blade hitting the rib of her bracer. She kicks the blade over to [Bystander] as the [You] fumbles it.
...it discourages me. Because what's the point of me being there? If another player player is going to tell me what happens to me or what I do, why don't they just play by themselves and make all that up? Sure I could RP that I kicked you in the face knocking you down and jumped up grabbing my blade and slitting your throat with it, but is that really fun or believable? And I'm sure there are other ways I could of RPed it back to be a "worthy adversary" for you but I just don't want to because I know it will just get into a match where we have to out do each other with more ridiculous and more glorious actions. It's silly.
Don't confuse me not RPing my character as some badass adversary for you as me not putting effort into my RP. Frankly, the RP I've had with you and see you do makes me want to keep my other characters, that could prove to be an interesting opponent to you, out of any RP like that.
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You may find a lot of discussion regarding the term "godmodding" all over this board...
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[Player one] simply stops the sword cold with her right forearm, the blade hitting the rib of her bracer. She kicks the blade over to [Bystander] as the [You] fumbles it.[/color]
It might be of help to make these distinctions visually clear. The part in blue is kinda godmoddy due to the language used in that it indicates absolutely no chance of anything affecting that state, the complete stopping of action against Player 1, and little reason to believe that another attempt would fare any better, yet it by itself could still be worked with just fine. However, the part in red is most assuredly godmodding. Once Player 1 does something that involves a reaction from [You] that action must be presented as an attempt to carry out the plan. Then, [You] must be allowed to chose their own reaction.
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[Player one] simply stops the sword cold with her right forearm, the blade hitting the rib of her bracer. She kicks the blade over to [Bystander] as the [You] fumbles it.[/color]
It might be of help to make these distinctions visually clear. The part in blue is kinda godmoddy due to the language used in that it indicates absolutely no chance of anything affecting that state, the complete stopping of action against Player 1, and little reason to believe that another attempt would fare any better, yet it by itself could still be worked with just fine. However, the part in red is most assuredly godmodding. Once Player 1 does something that involves a reaction from [You] that action must be presented as an attempt to carry out the plan. Then, [You] must be allowed to chose their own reaction.
There are indeed two parts to this; one is a parry (the blue part) and the other a response to the other character posting that he lost his grip on the sword (the red part).
The problem with "...attempts to" logic in a parrying (blocking, dodging) context is that it returns control of the outcome of an attack back to the attacker (which negates the point of that anti-godmodding rule entirely). As to your other objections to it, I'm not sure what you want me to do; writing in a bunch of theoretical holes that the opponent is in no position to take advantage of is a waste of everyone's time and reading energy.
The second (red) half is an ex parte action as the character that once was wielding the blade had already lost control of it (as they had posted themselves). However, I agree that the language there does not make the sequencing clear when taken out of context; "after [You] fumbled it." would be a much better choice of wording. Or are ex parte actions not legal RP to begin with? Should I have said "attempted to kick the blade over to [Bystander]" even though there was nobody in control of the blade at that point in time?
Also: is there a reason an opportunity has to be presented on a silver platter to be taken? Do you folks just not see things that are not explicitly written out?
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This was an example I saw that I thought would be useful for explaining type of actions, I did not intend for this to be the only scenario were I was basing my opinions on.
However, to give some context, I did notice this was posted after the player had already stumbled and fumbled the sword himself. But I also noticed that you felt like you needed to be the one who did it and posted it like that.
First off I don't find stopping a sword swing (even by a novice swordsman) without any sort of injury or emotion should from that individual plausible. I know this is the world of PS but what I've seen so far it has very similar physics to the real world. I've done hand-to-hand training in RL and sometimes used batons and other items with it. It hurts. Even if there's padding and you've done body hardening training. And you are more than likely not going to disarm your opponent that way (perhaps a follow up move?).
Even so, I think it would be fun to show/RP the effects of other player's characters on your character - even if you beat them. Afterall no victory is without it's costs.
I'm just saying we need to consider that are character isn't always the main character in the story. Some RPs you're character will play a minor role and some others they will be more crucial role in evolving the plot, but we need to stop forcing our characters into this roll unnaturally.
Moving out to more general things, I was wondering this: What keeps you from playing the same characters still? Why are we afraid to kill people off or retire our older characters to more minor roles when we play? Do we really have more development or plots these characters are involved in, or do we just kind of walk them around hunting for new RP to find?
I ask these because I have a few ideas/general direction I'd like to create my characters into --obviously it gets tweaked and changed slightly by other characters. But I'm wondering what will I do when I've played with them so much that they begin to fulfill these goals/develop into the character I want? I feel like I would get bored and have to put them on the backburner or find an end to their story. And then I create a new character. But I don't really see other players doing this and I wonder what keeps them from doing so?
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@Kaerli, when people refer to a dagger in-game imagine that it looks like the model you see in game, but not all black and weird and fat... The model is terrible, but it gives you an idea. A dagger is usually a straight, double-edged blade longer than 4" at least.
@godmoddingdiscussion, even though roleplay isn't really a sport, it is still a form of gaming and should be treated as such. You should try to win, if that's your character's plan, using your character's strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. This is where roleplay with people who aren't interested in learning about real combat gets troublesome, though.
In a fight, you aren't doing one action at a time. You flow from action to action, interspersed with reactions. If you are initiating the fight, you should clarify your position, stance, target, and your follow-up. You shouldn't have to clarify anything that is obvious to your opponent, though, like if you are directly in front of him, or already stated one of these in your previous post. Stance should be whether you are closed or open in relation to your opponent, crouched, hands up, whatever. Target should give the opponent a general idea of where on his person you are attacking, but not too specific. You'll notice in most bouts, MMA or fencing or what have you, that the attacker does not aim exactly for a specific target, but rather a region. You might try to hit someone in the nose but hit their cheekbone, not because you missed but because there is so much movement. And the follow-up can be another attack in succession, a retreat, a duck, or skipped entirely if you're feeling lazy or overly confident. I think follow-ups help keep the flow going between players and set a realistic pace to keep you on your toes (or fingers).
In regards to the example Bonedaf posted, Player 1 shouldn't be able to stop a sword cold with her bracer. It would just slide or bounce off and come at her again. There is no way she could go from blocking a sword to kicking it in the same post.
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By now I'm rambling, but I wanted to add on to the bit about combat I said above. If you are reacting to someone else's attack, you do not immediately need to state your position or stance. Your post starts from the effect of the attack and/or reaction to the attack. You should clarify where your character was hit and the damage dealt, plus your character's reaction. If you were not hit, then you basically use the same formula as the initiating attacker.
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I have a few ideas/general direction I'd like to create my characters into --obviously it gets tweaked and changed slightly by other characters. But I'm wondering what will I do when I've played with them so much that they begin to fulfill these goals/develop into the character I want? I feel like I would get bored and have to put them on the backburner or find an end to their story. And then I create a new character. But I don't really see other players doing this and I wonder what keeps them from doing so?
investment leads to attachment. aside from character development through RP, there's the other side of the coin, skill and stat development, which in this game requires heavy heavy investment of time, energy, other resources, enough to deter starting over from a clean slate. that's why i think most players will have a 'main' character, and 'alts' that come and go as the plot demands.
@godmoddingdiscussion, even though roleplay isn't really a sport, it is still a form of gaming and should be treated as such. You should try to win, if that's your character's plan, using your character's strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. This is where roleplay with people who aren't interested in learning about real combat gets troublesome, though.
wanting to win does not a winner make. sometimes you have to concede that your opponent outmaneuvered, outsmarted, or got the best of you however. we all know how tiresome it is when there are two players who refuse to lose.
i also would add this side note: in terms of combat and other skills, it's pretty hard to role play an expert of a certain domain that you yourself have little knowledge of. if you want your character to be skilled at something, it's best to do your research.
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@Kaerli, when people refer to a dagger in-game imagine that it looks like the model you see in game, but not all black and weird and fat... The model is terrible, but it gives you an idea. A dagger is usually a straight, double-edged blade longer than 4" at least.
@godmoddingdiscussion, even though roleplay isn't really a sport, it is still a form of gaming and should be treated as such. You should try to win, if that's your character's plan, using your character's strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. This is where roleplay with people who aren't interested in learning about real combat gets troublesome, though.
In a fight, you aren't doing one action at a time. You flow from action to action, interspersed with reactions. If you are initiating the fight, you should clarify your position, stance, target, and your follow-up. You shouldn't have to clarify anything that is obvious to your opponent, though, like if you are directly in front of him, or already stated one of these in your previous post. Stance should be whether you are closed or open in relation to your opponent, crouched, hands up, whatever. Target should give the opponent a general idea of where on his person you are attacking, but not too specific. You'll notice in most bouts, MMA or fencing or what have you, that the attacker does not aim exactly for a specific target, but rather a region. You might try to hit someone in the nose but hit their cheekbone, not because you missed but because there is so much movement. And the follow-up can be another attack in succession, a retreat, a duck, or skipped entirely if you're feeling lazy or overly confident. I think follow-ups help keep the flow going between players and set a realistic pace to keep you on your toes (or fingers).
In regards to the example Bonedaf posted, Player 1 shouldn't be able to stop a sword cold with her bracer. It would just slide or bounce off and come at her again. There is no way she could go from blocking a sword to kicking it in the same post.
Yeah. I spoke with Juroku as well, and we came to the agreement that those two sections of post shouldn't have been merged the way they did. Part of the problem is that no matter what you do in a multi-party RP, someone's going to have trouble with (re-)actions getting changed out from under them, and I need to handle that better (would multi-party RPspars be a good idea for this?)
I agree with you that targets shouldn't be too specific; I've seen it many times where a character takes a blow on a different part of their body than their original aimpoint. Good point about stances and follow-ups though; I should work that into my RP more.
As to the blow bouncing off the bracer: I'm inclined to agree with you there too from the physics perspective; but some attackers (less experienced ones) I think would probably try to press into the attack and try to shove into Kaerli's arm instead of taking the bounce/ring to pull back and come around again. (Just a thought about the difference between a veteran fighter and an amateur.)
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As to the blow bouncing off the bracer: I'm inclined to agree with you there too from the physics perspective; but some attackers (less experienced ones) I think would probably try to press into the attack and try to shove into Kaerli's arm instead of taking the bounce/ring to pull back and come around again. (Just a thought about the difference between a veteran fighter and an amateur.)
once again, it's not up to you to dictate that.
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Ok, if it is in response to the character losing control that example makes more sense. And, I acknowledge that more text would probably be better context sake. However, this still raises the issue I mentioning earlier, there is a meta part to RP that requires you the player to step back from the character for a moment to analyze the flow of story and how you are sharing that story with other involved players.
In using attempts, you are not returning control back to the attacker as much as you are allowing the player a turn at inputting into the story. You might find that as you give people that opportunity, they may just write their response in such a way that you have clear room to do what you intend because they see where you are going.
But as Bonedaf said:
...it discourages me. Because what's the point of me being there? If another player player is going to tell me what happens to me or what I do, why don't they just play by themselves and make all that up?
If you cut the other player out of inputting into the story, you negate the need for them to keep trying and you will find they will take their metaphorical ball and go home. That is, they will stop RPing with you. Whether or not you can justify the sequence of actions becomes less important to considering whether or not the person is going to be inclined to keep sitting there watching you write their story without deciding to opt out.
I'm not sure what you want me to do; writing in a bunch of theoretical holes that the opponent is in no position to take advantage of is a waste of everyone's time and reading energy.
No, but the problem is that Kaerli appears to others to have no holes theoretical or otherwise so it seems it becomes rather tiresome to bother to look since it seems like a futile task.
Also: is there a reason an opportunity has to be presented on a silver platter to be taken? Do you folks just not see things that are not explicitly written out?
It's not that it is always inherently not seen, but it if it were that explicit to everyone else, no one would be having this conversation. However, consider that it is not a matter of whether or not it is on a silver platter. It's a matter of when participating in the RP becomes OOC work, and I don't mean effort I mean it is work. It is burdensome. Once it is work, it is not entertainment anymore and once people are not able to have fun they stop.
I admit that this aspect of detail oriented RP is what makes it fun for you, but you have to consider that you might end up draining more effort from people than they have allotted for their RPs. In an ideal world everyone could easily sustain the amount of effort needed for everyone else's RPs but we live in busy times and people have to budget their energies.
Moving out to more general things, I was wondering this: What keeps you from playing the same characters still? Why are we afraid to kill people off or retire our older characters to more minor roles when we play? Do we really have more development or plots these characters are involved in, or do we just kind of walk them around hunting for new RP to find?
I ask these because I have a few ideas/general direction I'd like to create my characters into --obviously it gets tweaked and changed slightly by other characters. But I'm wondering what will I do when I've played with them so much that they begin to fulfill these goals/develop into the character I want? I feel like I would get bored and have to put them on the backburner or find an end to their story. And then I create a new character. But I don't really see other players doing this and I wonder what keeps them from doing so?
Because given enough time and RPs the character becomes a person and not a plot device. They become growing and changing individuals that progress past initial goals. They develop new goals, they meet new people, and find new influences. They go places they hadn't intended to go. This idea of them reaching an end doesn't take into account the major changes that occur due to other characters and situations that you don't initially chose to put your characters in. You may have a goal but that doesn't mean you reach it in an orderly or linear fashion. As you interact with other stories, you will find that you are only writing one part of a much larger story and that as other people fill in the other parts, your characters will get entangled in them and pulled along.
Technically, I have some characters that are only just now getting to the way I had intended them to be from their creation, and that is only the beginning of their story. That has nothing to do with what else I can think to work them towards. For instance, you've meet Illysia. She is my absolute first character here and is 9 years old in terms of real life playing time. There is still a lot to do with her even though she achieved many of the goals I set her up with initially. Right now she has to try to recover from her ordeal in the DR and try to balance her sense of duty and obligation to provide for others. Providing for others has not only be a major driving point of her character but she actually achieved it a major way, setting up the Stonehead to serve others fulfilled that goal. But, due to other influences, even that which she has achieved is in question and she must work to travel a new path to her old goals.
Characters can grow for as long as you don't close the book on them.
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@ Illysia: I defiantly agree with that. I guess I just see people that max out their characters IG and just kind of wander around lost; half the time showing off their awesome characters the other half wandering around for RP to join into, rather than creating it.
I guess I just fear the time when a player is to attached to a character to end their story. I know the grinding makes it tough to let go but eventually I would think it would be time to create a new type of character. Or at least have your "main" become more of an alt used occasionally and maybe develop your "alt" with more depth. Maybe I'm just weird as I want the opportunity to play a variety of roles rather than just one. I guess that's what draws me to RP :-)
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Ok, if it is in response to the character losing control that example makes more sense. And, I acknowledge that more text would probably be better context sake. However, this still raises the issue I mentioning earlier, there is a meta part to RP that requires you the player to step back from the character for a moment to analyze the flow of story and how you are sharing that story with other involved players.
In using attempts, you are not returning control back to the attacker as much as you are allowing the player a turn at inputting into the story. You might find that as you give people that opportunity, they may just write their response in such a way that you have clear room to do what you intend because they see where you are going.
But as Bonedaf said:
...it discourages me. Because what's the point of me being there? If another player player is going to tell me what happens to me or what I do, why don't they just play by themselves and make all that up?
If you cut the other player out of inputting into the story, you negate the need for them to keep trying and you will find they will take their metaphorical ball and go home. That is, they will stop RPing with you. Whether or not you can justify the sequence of actions becomes less important to considering whether or not the person is going to be inclined to keep sitting there watching you write their story without deciding to opt out.
I'm not sure what you want me to do; writing in a bunch of theoretical holes that the opponent is in no position to take advantage of is a waste of everyone's time and reading energy.
No, but the problem is that Kaerli appears to others to have no holes theoretical or otherwise so it seems it becomes rather tiresome to bother to look since it seems like a futile task.
Also: is there a reason an opportunity has to be presented on a silver platter to be taken? Do you folks just not see things that are not explicitly written out?
It's not that it is always inherently not seen, but it if it were that explicit to everyone else, no one would be having this conversation. However, consider that it is not a matter of whether or not it is on a silver platter. It's a matter of when participating in the RP becomes OOC work, and I don't mean effort I mean it is work. It is burdensome. Once it is work, it is not entertainment anymore and once people are not able to have fun they stop.
I admit that this aspect of detail oriented RP is what makes it fun for you, but you have to consider that you might end up draining more effort from people than they have allotted for their RPs. In an ideal world everyone could easily sustain the amount of effort needed for everyone else's RPs but we live in busy times and people have to budget their energies.
Moving out to more general things, I was wondering this: What keeps you from playing the same characters still? Why are we afraid to kill people off or retire our older characters to more minor roles when we play? Do we really have more development or plots these characters are involved in, or do we just kind of walk them around hunting for new RP to find?
I ask these because I have a few ideas/general direction I'd like to create my characters into --obviously it gets tweaked and changed slightly by other characters. But I'm wondering what will I do when I've played with them so much that they begin to fulfill these goals/develop into the character I want? I feel like I would get bored and have to put them on the backburner or find an end to their story. And then I create a new character. But I don't really see other players doing this and I wonder what keeps them from doing so?
Because given enough time and RPs the character becomes a person and not a plot device. They become growing and changing individuals that progress past initial goals. They develop new goals, they meet new people, and find new influences. They go places they hadn't intended to go. This idea of them reaching an end doesn't take into account the major changes that occur due to other characters and situations that you don't initially chose to put your characters in. You may have a goal but that doesn't mean you reach it in an orderly or linear fashion. As you interact with other stories, you will find that you are only writing one part of a much larger story and that as other people fill in the other parts, your characters will get entangled in them and pulled along.
Technically, I have some characters that are only just now getting to the way I had intended them to be from their creation, and that is only the beginning of their story. That has nothing to do with what else I can think to work them towards. For instance, you've meet Illysia. She is my absolute first character here and is 9 years old in terms of real life playing time. There is still a lot to do with her even though she achieved many of the goals I set her up with initially. Right now she has to try to recover from her ordeal in the DR and try to balance her sense of duty and obligation to provide for others. Providing for others has not only be a major driving point of her character but she actually achieved it a major way, setting up the Stonehead to serve others fulfilled that goal. But, due to other influences, even that which she has achieved is in question and she must work to travel a new path to her old goals.
Characters can grow for as long as you don't close the book on them.
As to the "no holes thing": I suspect you're confusing evidence of absence with absence of evidence, or why are you assuming there are no holes at all? I do agree that some people consider the combat mindgame too much work to be fun, although that raises the question as to why people who are that way RP fighters to begin with...?
What I find with "attempts to" parries that prompts my objection, by the way, is that the RP becomes a loop of passing the ball of deciding on the success or failure of an action back and forth between the parties involved, and that's simply a nightmare for state tracking as pended actions pile up.
@ Bonedaf and Illysia regarding alts: you have not considered that it takes quite a bit of time and effort to 'bootstrap' an alt to the point where they have an income source, name recognition, and whatever mechanics skills they need to be minimally effective at their role. This is one of the reasons I haven't done an Evirea and set Kaerli aside more fully in favor of developing an alt in-depth.
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I know Kaerli's one weak point, and I hope you don't mind if I say it. Multiple opponents. The problem with having that weakness, however, is that it is everyone's weakness. It doesn't count as a weakness because it is a weakness by default.
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@ Illysia: I defiantly agree with that. I guess I just see people that max out their characters IG and just kind of wander around lost; half the time showing off their awesome characters the other half wandering around for RP to join into, rather than creating it.
I guess I just fear the time when a player is to attached to a character to end their story. I know the grinding makes it tough to let go but eventually I would think it would be time to create a new type of character. Or at least have your "main" become more of an alt used occasionally and maybe develop your "alt" with more depth. Maybe I'm just weird as I want the opportunity to play a variety of roles rather than just one. I guess that's what draws me to RP :-)
This is mostly due to the fact that the Rp community is recovering from a lull of sorts. Once RP becomes more visibly frequent, people won't wander aimlessly as much. As for grinding, it is a bad rut developed from getting through lulls in RP. Even I have done and still at times fall into it. It's really just a matter of getting people excited and engaged in RP again. But I truly think I see a revival happening now and I will do what I can to help it along.
As to the "no holes thing": I suspect you're confusing evidence of absence with absence of evidence, or why are you assuming there are no holes at all? I do agree that some people consider the combat mindgame too much work to be fun, although that raises the question as to why people who are that way RP fighters to begin with...?
I'm not truly commenting on the presence or absence. I'm commenting on the demoralizing force of the appearance of no holes. However, others RP fighters because it fits their character idea. That doesn't mean, however, that they want to sit down and practically do a university course on it just to be able to enjoy playing their character. In the end combat can be handled a variety of ways, so what everyone who RPs combat has to do is find RPers whose combat RP style is compatible in the level of effort and detail involved.
What I find with "attempts to" parries that prompts my objection, by the way, is that the RP becomes a loop of passing the ball of deciding on the success or failure of an action back and forth between the parties involved, and that's simply a nightmare for state tracking as pended actions pile up.
No, that's how most RP is decided. You have now gotten to the bone of the mechanics of sharing a story. ;) Instead of tracking the state, for a moment, track the story. Look to see what makes for a more interesting outcome rather than a winning outcome. It might help alleviate the burden of tracking the effect on pending actions
@ Bonedaf and Illysia regarding alts: you have not considered that it takes quite a bit of time and effort to 'bootstrap' an alt to the point where they have an income source, name recognition, and whatever mechanics skills they need to be minimally effective at their role. This is one of the reasons I haven't done an Evirea and set Kaerli aside more fully in favor of developing an alt in-depth.
It could be a motivator but it's not a guarantee as you don't have to level stats to RP. I have several alts that have very distinct stories that I would like to explore and they have little training. Aside from Illysia, the only reason they have training at all was to pass time. I am not above shifting resources from a better trained alt to a lesser trained one to achieve things like income and whatnot, though.
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Folks, don't feed the trolls.
This applies not only to the stock trolls but also the highly passive-aggressive trolls who will try to get you to explain simple shit to them, and then pretend to be clueless just to piss you off.
Kaerli is a passive aggressive troll and has been badgering all of us with these questions for years. The more you try to school him, the more he'll pretend to not understand you. The only way to win this game is to refuse to play it.
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I don't believe Kaerli is deliberately trolling but rather legitimately does not understand the cues the rest of us use to pick up on where to pull back and where to keep going. It's not a general lack of understanding but rather a lack of intuition that the rest of us rely on.
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I call bullshit.
He's been doing this for years.
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For years because most people explain it the way they understand but not necessarily in a way that Kaerli understands. Giving an explanation, however simple, is not the same is giving the one a person actually needs. But, Kaerli has done better in recent years; he still just has plenty journey left.
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For years because most people explain it the way they understand but not necessarily in a way that Kaerli understands. Giving an explanation, however simple, is not the same is giving the one a person actually needs. But, Kaerli has done better in recent years; he still just has plenty journey left.
TYVM. I have found that the explanations of narrativism I have been given have varied wildly in comprehendability for me. Illysia, you've done a fantastic job of putting the pieces together in a way that my brain can make sense of; between you, Prreta, and Sekto, as well as some of the written work of Bankuei and others on narrativism in general RP, I think I'll finally make it there.
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I'm glad. :) There is still a long journey left but there are signs of improvement.
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Kaerli is a passive aggressive troll and has been badgering all of us with these questions for years. The more you try to school him, the more he'll pretend to not understand you. The only way to win this game is to refuse to play it.
Take some time to play with Kaerli one-on-one, and you'll see otherwise.
By the way, accusing people of trolling is pretty low. So, just don't.
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Kaerli is a passive aggressive troll and has been badgering all of us with these questions for years. The more you try to school him, the more he'll pretend to not understand you. The only way to win this game is to refuse to play it.
Take some time to play with Kaerli one-on-one, and you'll see otherwise.
By the way, accusing people of trolling is pretty low. So, just don't.
Enjoy the RP.
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it's clearly obvious that kaerli is an emergent artificial intelligence which became self-realized in the gordion knot which is PS code. if it comes across as obtuse in terms of appropriate social interaction, it is merely trying to understand humanity, and who can blame it, when all it has to go on is our RPs in main, these here forum posts, and the inanity which is gossip. we should take pity on it and help it on its journey of becoming a real boy.
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lmao
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it's clearly obvious that kaerli is an emergent artificial intelligence which became self-realized in the gordion knot which is PS code. if it comes across as obtuse in terms of appropriate social interaction, it is merely trying to understand humanity, and who can blame it, when all it has to go on is our RPs in main, these here forum posts, and the inanity which is gossip. we should take pity on it and help it on its journey of becoming a real boy.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/jonah.gif)
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Next necro, this might be a helpful topic of discussion these days. But less picking on Kaerli please. :)