PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: cdmoreland on January 22, 2015, 03:56:51 pm
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It seems that one can no longer train combat skills with low level mobs that won't kill you in few hits. A new player cannot afford potions to heal against the higher level mobs.
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Can you give more informations :
Which mobs, which equipment and which overall skills and stats levels ?
Do you mean that a new comer would be killed quickly by a clacker ? This isn't exactly new. :)
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I think what cdmoreland means is that you no longer can grind your skills with low level mobs because also on full defensive you do damage. (for example: armor with kikiri)
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With a new alt I could not get any credit in MA after reaching level 10, some in LA as I was wearing a merc helm but only at 3 in LA. It made no difference when I removed the shield or even melee. No advance in MA against clackers after level 10.
btw- I was getting a bit of MA with a Thunder Clacker but taking too much damage.
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Means: Before you start to get any experience in armor using now, you take so much damage that you will probably die.
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ok, thanks guys for clarification. ;)
The armor training is now based on your ability to dodge blows. It has nothing to do with the damage you are taking from the mob anymore if i am right.
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Taken damage was and still is the limiting factor for body development training, right?
Does shield training work at all right now? Maybe it is meant to work like weapon training in the future. I.e. endless dummy-bashing (*yawn*).
Armor training was indeed way too easy - considering the numbers of players with skills going form 0 to 200 just a few days after PP/tria costs for training were discarded. With new armor training rules, it will be very tedious to catch up. Could the probability-based new rule imply that a character with agility 400 will have a very hard time finding any enemies suitable for armor training?
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I can understand that it was too easy to train armor before, but to make it impossible is a bit too much. I can sit and grind crafting skills but not combat skills. I was angered when the advantage of crafted armor was removed but this really takes the cake.
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Leveling stops at 13 for both shield and MA on Jude Clackers.
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race and stats would be good to know. Also what other beasties have you tried? Trepors always used to be good to train on but things have changed, what about coamties? consumers?
I just started a kran street fighter character but haven't got up to the levels you mention. At level 5 or 6 la a jade clacker took me down 4/5ths. clackers and coamtis could barely scratch me. I admit I started with high physical stats are yours particularly low?
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The training of armour was altered to stop people maxing la/ma/ha/shield in a few hours. There were a few adjustments like this it seems we forgot to mention in the update due to the fact the changes were made 6+ months ago in the testing server.
Now, you can only train on a creature with armour skill equivalent to, or higher than yours (there is i think some flexibility in the exact limits). So it now kinda works like body development where you have to keep finding harder creatures to train against if you want to max the skill.
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Now, you can only train on a creature with armour skill equivalent to, or higher than yours (there is i think some flexibility in the exact limits). So it now kinda works like body development where you have to keep finding harder creatures to train against if you want to max the skill.
It then becomes next to impossible to max armor once one gets to mobs that cast spells without enchanted armor and high level defense spells. How high can one train on Marfusangs as that would seem to be the limit? (Not looking for a spoiler, just pointing out that they seem to be the strongest without magic.)
If it was applied to met in the same way one could no longer get experience for iron when you could make steel and no longer get it when you could do bronze, and so forth.
Alt is a Ynnwn created as a knight: Agi 55; Cha 60; End 152; Int 55; Str 140; Will was 55 but now 100 for more mana. Beginning skills: sword 10; MA 5; Shield 5.
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That is comparable to my just started kran, e just stopped getting practice from coamtis. The wrath rats seem doable. I might be able to kill 10 before taking too much damage to continue. If I decide to train in the death realm I'll never need pots at all. A little OOC, I suppose.
bilbous is slightly over 100 in all armor types and has little trouble training them with a bonus hat and two bonus swords. Too many def mods makes shield handling difficult but that could be fixed by making shield bash give practice. I can go toe to toe with any of the nauts and heal myself in between with spells. If your character refuses to use spells of any kind then that is an artificial limit you have imposed upon him. Why do you use potions if you abhor magic? Are there foodstuffs that can aide in your healing?
It seems to me that just as nobody is meant to do everything in this game nobody is meant to do just one thing. You can do it if you want but it limits your development.
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You misunderstand me, bilbous. I am not against magic or potions but magic takes glyphs and training to be effective and potions cost a lot. One real problem is the lack of loot when killing. I got good results with the clackers but get very little with trepors. Enchanted armor is around 500,000 tria, far out of the reach of a new player.
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I find it hard to understand your complaint. I get that low levels are kind of tough, especially if you start with poor stats. The stats you started with are fine. I made enough money in 15 minutes picking herbs and flowers to set myself up with weapons and armor. I had 5 in my armor type and the weapon I chose to use. Since then I have doubled my skill ratings in them and increased my shield handling to ~7 without ever dying or having to sell anything. The loot I have gotten is not too valuable, per se, but it can be used to make potions. Perhaps you can find an alchemist who will trade you potions for these ingredients.
On the other side of your post is talking about needing enchanted armor to fight, ulbers, is it? there is a very large disconnect between that and the original problem you discussed. Have you tried all the humanoids? where do the rogues, cutthroats mercenaries et al come in, can you fight any of them before you fight the marfusangs? When can you fight the plain consumers? you can loot lots of stuff to sell off these things. what about the various gobbles and riverlings? a few magic items from such as these will go a long way to help you. Reinforced, masterwork and other mods are your friend and help you fight stronger critters. I rarely use crafted weapons, myself, and if looted magical armor came in all forms I likely wouldn't use any crafted armor either, as it stands now.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying things are perfect, they never will be.
Oh and potions are free, you just have to be able to kill their owners. Bilbous loots hundreds and rarely uses them. I'd be glad to give them to anyone who needs them just to keep them from piling up in my storage. I used to not loot them at all but give them to my alts from time to time. Other times I leave them in charity boxes or the exchange market, or just drop them in front of Harnquist.
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I'm looking at it from the view of a new player. What if one wants to be a warrior? I doubt they would want to pick flowers. I can give my alt everything that is needed from glyphs to armor to tria but a new player doesn't have that. Someone new to the game is greatly handicapped. Potions are not free until you can kill gladiators and rogues but the question remains, can a new player do it? We say we want new players but kill incentive before they can get a good start.
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A new player unwilling or unable to talk to anyone will be at a decided disadvantage. Anyone willing to speak up in gossip or in main is liable to find help, heck you can learn a lot just by listening to other people. I haven't gone through the tutorial lately but I think the current iteration is fairly helpful. The thing about picking flowers is that it is free money that you can hardly avoid seeing if you travel outside the city. In a way I think it is unfortunate that all of the flowers in the secret garden are unpickable as it could give a newcomer the wrong idea about resources elsewhere available. It is true that the people who buy these items are not as obvious as someone could get discouraged trying to find them. It might be an idea to tweak the descriptions to list actual uses and type of merchant who might buy them. It might be a bit obscure to a newcomer.
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I started a new character with much agility. At level 10 Light Armor and 91 agility I can easily train armor. Currently I can train with creatures like Frost Arangmas and Jade Clacker and loose only very little health in Defensive stance with a shield.
Seeing your stats I suspect the new armor training might be harder for players with little agility.
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The problem is that armor training STOPS with mobs that are weaker. When you reach lvl 10 in MA you will get no training even though it still takes a while to kill a clacker.
If the same rules applied to armor making one would no longer get training once you could make 300q gloves, then it would stop again when you could make 300q boots, etc.
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the speed of Light armor training is okay.with Medium armor it's pretty Bearable too. But Heavy armor is too slow,i get to level 2 from level 1 in about hour.maybe practice points per hit should be chanced to higher.
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I am currently trying to gather enough pp to buy sufficient strength to be able to wear the heavy armor. In the meantime I am wearing 4 pieces of light armor, 2 enchanted of high quality, a looted mercenary helm and a stock pair of boots, and two pieces of stock medium armor. I am wielding a dark club and a looted reinforced shield. You can see me here (http://planeshift.teamix.org/myplane/profile/Beurne_Luggy/). I am fighting gladiators at ~20 pps and one greater potion of healing per. I am training LA, MA, BD, M&H, and SH at a fairly reasonable rate. Once I can wear the HA I expect to train with 2 pieces of that too.
As you increase your stats your training rates are altered. It used to be said that intelligence increased your learning rate, but higher stats generally lowered your pp generation.
One problem that might be affecting your HA training rate is the general increase in your character's robustness -- more hit points due to BD, greater ability to overmatch your opponent due to greater weapon/shield skill. It may be difficult to compare armor training rates due to these factors and possibly others I have not considered.
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Maxing armor skills vs rats feels a bit odd indeed. I have not made it so high in armor so I don't know how it is on higher levels. However fighting trepor armor will not raise above 15. It felt a bit low but instead of complaining about that, I thought that maybe it's possible to have some kind of efficency coefficent. Like fighting rats, up to level 10, you gain 100% armor practice. After that it gets lower up to level 20 for example where you will gain 0%. Numbers are just examples
If you feel that a mob is too though to practice on, you can go back and fight something else, though with slower gain. This would add more flexibility as you can fight more mobs for training, higher lvl for faster or lower lvl for slower gain but it would still be a limit so you can't max out at low level mobs. Any thoughts about this?
EDIT: For example, at 15 Heavy armor I can't gain anything vs trepors or tefusanglings. My option is to move on to gladiators but they will damage me for over 30hp with each hit which means there is not much gain before one has to stock up with more potions. Judging from how much the bar has moved it will be an hour or two just to get from 15 to 16. I can't imagine how much time one has to spend at higher levels since one also has to fight more powerful mobs.
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Yes, leveling armor sucks. Ellis Warfang is only 17 in light armor (200 HA) so I tried him. Tefusangs are too tough and Tefusanglings give no training. Trepor Warriors give him training but in 1 hour of training I got only 1/2 of a level. Some of that may be his stats, none under 300. Trepor Warriors half kill Ellis but his health is 1288. Can a new player survive without a ton of tria for potions?
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Has decided following the last Dev Q&A, tests have been made about armor training.
I've tested Ligth Armor, like you mentioned, with the exact same skills as your "new" character and had 1280 Health points. Within 5 minutes, changing of beasts and tweaking my acessories (items I bought to Harnquist, everything 50Q), I found a way to level up my Light Armor which was at level 17. It didn't even needed the use of healing potion at all.
So basically, it is possible and not even problematic as far as i saw. Of course it is slower then before but this is legitimate.
Like I told you in game when you made a petition about it, you need to make experiments, see which beasts suit your skills and if one big is too hard then maybe several small are better ? I will make further tests with MA and HA but so far, it's working just fine.
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Zunna, the real problem as I see it is that a new player will get discouraged before they even get a good start. Once a player hits level 20 in armor he will need to fight mobs that cast spells. Waesed and Ellis needn't worry about it. A new player starts with about 400 health and will die quickly.
Is the real goal to make it so hard to level that only role-play is left? Why even bother with the mechanics of a 3D game?
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I've tested Ligth Armor, like you mentioned, with the exact same skills as your "new" character and had 1280 Health points. Within 5 minutes, changing of beasts and tweaking my acessories (items I bought to Harnquist, everything 50Q), I found a way to level up my Light Armor which was at level 17. It didn't even needed the use of healing potion at all.
So basically, it is possible and not even problematic as far as i saw. Of course it is slower then before but this is legitimate.
Zunna, you certainly can do it, but we should keep in mind that you are not exactly our average newbie, who is still lacking your experience.
Just my two tria,
Gonger.
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I totaly understood you guys worries, and I continu driving test like I said with the skills and stats at the level precised by cdmoreland. I will let you guys know :)
Also how did we learned to train ? Wont it be the same path for newcomers ?
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Zunna, a new player might not even notice that they are no longer leveling.
It's been my goal to help new players so when we get an update I create a new character to test and learn what has changed. I used Ellis, who was my original character from EZPC, to test if it made any difference with higher stats.
If the same rules applied to magic I would get no practice from any spell below realm 5 as Waesed, but I do even for realm 1 spells like Rinse and Flame Burst. My whole point has been that training should not stop regardless of level or apply it to everything.Then you would have all the crafters screaming.
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I believe it's bossible to train armors if you make enough experiments,but i see other broblem that can cause even more frustation.
You need strenght a lot to wear heavy armor,and newbie might not get in those Levels in a while.This causes several broblems:
1) If you first train other armors,your weapons get trained too.This means you need to chance weapons while chancing to HA.If you don't,you kill mobs too fast.And more powerfull mobs kill you cause of lack of armor skill.This forces to train other weapon skills too.
2) Your stats get too high, which causes you deal more damage.This means you kill NPCs too fast.If you chance to more powerfull NPCs, your armor isn't enough to keep you alive.
Is there anything that can be done to this?
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Weapons do loose power as the quality decreases. A lower quality weapon will do less damage. There are also weapons and items that will lower various stats. This can be handy in some cases.
Different mobs have different attacks and resistances. Perhaps take this into consideration when selecting a mob or group of mobs.
Lastly, its pretty hard to just train one skill in isolation. I would say select a few skills that will compliment each other and work from there.
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I have no problem with making armor harder to train. It was too easy. My beef is that training STOPS. I discovered that while hunting clackers for their loot. For a new player it pays good. I only even noticed it when my sword skill was going up but my armor and shield were not.
The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer. It was never a problem before then. Devs have been tweaking everything since then.
I have watched the player base dwindle with many updates. This might be the end for me.
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A lower quality weapon will do less damage. There are also weapons and items that will lower various stats.
Right, and it should be noted that q 1/50 weapons do not get broken - you can even ask other players for a worn down weapon to practice (cheap and useless once training is done). And yes, buffs can help, too *cough* *copper* *cough*. If healing is an issue, food can be surprisingly useful. And once more, some players like to help weaker characters. With some healing support hunting and training can get much more interesting.
The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer.
Yeah, it gives an unfair advantage to those who effortlessly maxed their armor skills when practice was still easy and theory lessons were discarded.
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The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer.
Yeah, it gives an unfair advantage to those who effortlessly maxed their armor skills when practice was still easy and theory lessons were discarded.
Apply the sames rules to everything and you will have no one but role players that don't care anything about the mechanics of the game. I won't say what they are but most every craft can be spammed to level quickly.
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The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer.
Yeah, it gives an unfair advantage to those who effortlessly maxed their armor skills when practice was still easy and theory lessons were discarded.
Apply the sames rules to everything and you will have no one but role players that don't care anything about the mechanics of the game. I won't say what they are but most every craft can be spammed to level quickly.
Com'on don't tell me you favor the previous system where you would have to stop training to go buy the new skill from trainers! I feel the current system is way faster and overall more user friendly from a gameplay pov. Sure it's not perfect as there are some skills that were exploitable (like armor) and to fix them we had to introduce some limits. Now those limits may not be perfectly balanced (we're still testing) but are necessary to prevent the server monopolization.
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I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Goodbye.
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The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer.
Yeah, it gives an unfair advantage to those who effortlessly maxed their armor skills when practice was still easy and theory lessons were discarded.
Apply the sames rules to everything and you will have no one but role players that don't care anything about the mechanics of the game. I won't say what they are but most every craft can be spammed to level quickly.
Com'on don't tell me you favor the previous system where you would have to stop training to go buy the new skill from trainers! I feel the current system is way faster and overall more user friendly from a gameplay pov. Sure it's not perfect as there are some skills that were exploitable (like armor) and to fix them we had to introduce some limits. Now those limits may not be perfectly balanced (we're still testing) but are necessary to prevent the server monopolization.
I have to agree with Eonwind on this. I think the new system feels a lot more natural and makes more sense than the previous one did. The current devs have also been good about listening to player feedback and tweaking the system. In the past, most things said on the forum seemed to get ignored.
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I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Goodbye.
cdmoreland, like I said previously and like Eonwind precised it yet again in his post, we are working on it and testing. But this take time as we aren't doing only that of our days ;)
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A new player cannot afford potions to heal against the higher level mobs.
Yes.
I'm looking at it from the view of a new player. What if one wants to be a warrior? I doubt they would want to pick flowers. I can give my alt everything that is needed from glyphs to armor to tria but a new player doesn't have that. Someone new to the game is greatly handicapped. Potions are not free until you can kill gladiators and rogues but the question remains, can a new player do it? We say we want new players but kill incentive before they can get a good start.
yes.
Yes, leveling armor sucks.
Yes.
Zunna, the real problem as I see it is that a new player will get discouraged before they even get a good start. Once a player hits level 20 in armor he will need to fight mobs that cast spells. Waesed and Ellis needn't worry about it. A new player starts with about 400 health and will die quickly.
Is the real goal to make it so hard to level that only role-play is left? Why even bother with the mechanics of a 3D game?
Yes.
I have no problem with making armor harder to train. It was too easy. My beef is that training STOPS. I discovered that while hunting clackers for their loot. For a new player it pays good. I only even noticed it when my sword skill was going up but my armor and shield were not.
The problem was created when you no longer needed to go to a trainer. It was never a problem before then. Devs have been tweaking everything since then.
I have watched the player base dwindle with many updates. This might be the end for me.
Yes.
I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Goodbye.
I am tired of Mister Eonwind as well.
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Instead of blaming person A or B for not listening, you could give ideas how to improve this system. Complaining about persons will not lead anywhere.
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Don't forget that since Eonwind joined the rules dpt, there was a considerable boost in development. Maybe not all additions worked as expected, but there's lots of good new stuff... and much more to come, I assume :)
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I have said nothing against anyone, only the current system for armor training. Eonwind has been doing good work and lots of it. Zunna might think I'm just complaining but I have loved this game for a few years and want it to grow.
I also need to ask if the effectiveness of armor has been reduced AGAIN or has the damage done by mobs increased?
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I have said nothing against anyone, only the current system for armor training. Eonwind has been doing good work and lots of it. Zunna might think I'm just complaining but I have loved this game for a few years and want it to grow.
I also need to ask if the effectiveness of armor has been reduced AGAIN or has the damage done by mobs increased?
Don't worry cdmoreland, no personal offence from you has been taken by the rules department. Zunna has been testing the issue reported about armor, these tests can take quite some effort to perform but she may have found out a problem in levelling HA after a few (about 20) levels, we're inquiring the issue.
About armor effectivness it wasn't reduce nor the Mobs stats have increased, however since a few of them are now able to perform special attacks (using the experimental combat system) some of them may deal more damage than before while using thir special attacks.
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I have said nothing against anyone, only the current system for armor training. Eonwind has been doing good work and lots of it. Zunna might think I'm just complaining but I have loved this game for a few years and want it to grow.
Absolutly not, in fact the feedbacks are mandatory so thanks :thumbup:
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Hello All.
We have finished our Armor Training tests and tweaks. After testing the system as it is now, we have checked every single beast’s stats to make sure they are as intended. We then have been working on the mathscript that controls the training. We have tested our changes directly on the test server. We still welcome your feedback once live on main server.
Finally, we have optimized the system and, hopefully, made it more intuitive, for the newcomers as well. Here is what you should know about armor training:
- You will receive training when you dodge a beast blow (importance of Agility to aid dodging)
- You will now receive training ALSO when the beast does you damage.
- The beast you are training on, must be in your "skill range" or it won't train you properly.
The skill range include the beasts whose attack skill is from 12 ranks lower and up than your armor skill. We also put in a variable so as you get to higher levels this gap widens (although there will be a max range). Generally there should be at least 5 to 6 beasts to choose from in your training range.
A few quick examples to help explain
*Low level: Armor skill = 25 you require mobs with at least 13 attack skill.
*Mid Level: Armor skill = 80 you require mobs with at least 60 attack skill.
*High Level: Armor skill = 160 you require mobs with at least 130 attack skill.
=> What next? We are exploring the possibility to:
* Use the beast descriptions to help players choose the more effective mobs in their range (e.g. ; " Trepor is as strong as you" or "Trepor will be a challenge to defeat", etc.)
* review the healing effect of bread and similar items, for a possible cheap mean to heal for newcomers. Tougher warriors, with more HP point will not benefit from this as much
* Add more healing potions in beasts loot (we still need a good IC reason as to how we can possibly loot healing potion from Tefusangling for example. We are open to suggestions.)
* Possibility to increase number of weaker humanoid "mobs" like Thugs (related to above
statement).
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* Add more healing potions in beasts loot (we still need a good IC reason as to how we can possibly loot healing potion from Tefusangling for example. We are open to suggestions.)
As far as beasts go I imagine they could drop an organ (for exemple 'warm tefusangling liver') that would be consumable as a low-power potion, with an object description to make it obvious.
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This is excellent news. I would like to test it with a low level alt.
I like Tzarhunt's idea of having potions masked as organs, very nice.
In that vein, we could pretend that they ate the potions during a fight, so an undigested potion could be looted from their entrails. Hope that's not too gross :) Something like "a healing potion is looted from the Tefusangling stomach."
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Well, Trepors spit out tria when they die. I guess there are a IC reason for this such as they are used as money bins. ;D
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Thanks for the news, Eonwind.
If players have difficulties to find the "right" beasts for training, why not show the amount of practice points gained in the system tab (e.g. some practice points --> 3 practice points)? Or are those ranges all-or-nothing?
Food for healing: Yes, as I already mentioned, it already seems quite useful. A stack of 60 food items can give you permanent healing for quite a while. I guess for a weaker character it looks even more impressive. And some food can be crafted almost effortlessly, so there may be room for some player economy :)
More potions from beasties? Mhm, I don't know if that is necessary, but it seems a bit odd. Maybe some direct recovery (also stamina etc) per kill works better?
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What happened to the pies we used to have as loot?
Not exactly sure on the stats & skills of my char at the time, but the pies were usually better than the potions for healing...