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Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: LigH on March 01, 2016, 02:15:00 pm

Title: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on March 01, 2016, 02:15:00 pm
Dear US Americans ... would you really vote for a candidate only because his name somehow makes you feel that it might be related to "success"?  ::|

Beware! This is not even his ancestors' real name!  :o

#MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ)

20 minutes of entertainment with political satire by John Oliver.  :lol:

Remember, you are responsible for the future of the whole planet during the US elections; your mistakes make billions suffer.  :sweatdrop:
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on March 01, 2016, 03:05:38 pm
Obama was a huge mistake in many ways, so to was bush jr. We need a lot of things fixed and someone who is capable of focusing on the most needed changes.

A lot of people don't like Trump - presumably because of his personality and political incorrectness. If you listen to him, a lot of what he says makes sense, and some of it is just hot air....

Let's see...

Ben Carson has a hard time separating fiction from reality. That eliminates him.
Rubio is too green.
Cruz is full of shit and manipulative in bad ways - he's a big no for me.
Kashic is not viable.
Hillary is on a power trip and will say anything get elected. Long histroy of lying and corruption.
Bernie Sanders want's the US to become a comunist country. This is america, not russia. He should run for president over there.

Issues that matter most right now:

The us economy is out of balance. If it's not fixed, we all sink. We need someone who understands money and knows how to turn a bad situation around.

We have too much strife between dems and republicans and are in serious need of someone who can negotiate. ( Thanks a lot, obama :/ )

Lastly, there is a giant sucking sound in the us that has been getting stronger and stronger for the last 30 years or so. If all the oursourcing of jobs, hiring of illegal aliens and fleeing of businesses to other countries does not stop, there will be nothing left of the us.

Alll the other issues like gay marriage, pot use, *free college*, *free medical* and religious issues need to take the back seat until we make some headway on these issues and on the budget deficit.



Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Pierrette on March 01, 2016, 03:39:06 pm
Rigwyn, you are not allowed to comment until you've watched John Oliver's exposé of Drumpf.  The reasons why people don't like him are laid out. 

I'll give you a hint, it's nothing to do with his personality and his non-PCness (in fact those are reasons he gives to like him), everything to do with his lies and how he ran his businesses.

If all the oursourcing of jobs, hiring of illegal aliens and fleeing of businesses to other countries does not stop, there will be nothing left of the us.

You think Drumpf will stop the outsourcing?   \\o// \\o// \\o//  Check where his clothing line is made.  If he does levy taxes on other outsourcing companies he would have to set up the laws so that his company was exempt.  Which I suppose he could do (put a "ties and suits" loophole in) but I'm not interested in a president like that.

And I'm off the thread, thanks LigH  :) .
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on March 01, 2016, 04:00:05 pm
Actualy, he openly admitted that he does take advantage of outsourcing and buyig foreign because it's cheaper - point blank. I don't know what changes he would make, but at least he's savvy enough to pull it off.

If financial/business competence scares you, then vote for someone who is completely incompetent. Personally, I feel more comfortable with competent folks.

As for john oliver, I'll watch the video later when I have time.

Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: steuben on March 01, 2016, 10:14:17 pm
The last %number% of presidents including %current present% have destroyed America. %presidential candidate% of the %party% is the only hope we have for America.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on March 02, 2016, 04:47:10 am
This is utterly retarded. Keep in mind, I'm no Trump supporter, but you progressives are absolute idiots.

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Dear US Americans ... would you really vote for a candidate only because his name somehow makes you feel that it might be related to "success"?

If you think this is why people would vote for Trump, you know nothing about American politics. The people are tired of crony capitalism, and whether you lean progressive or conservative pushes you either toward Sanders or Trump. Other candidates have corporations in their pockets. I would seriously consider voting for Trump if he were up against Hillary. I'd rather have a brash, ignorant businessman than a cunning, lying shill.

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Beware! This is not even his ancestors' real name!

Once again, a foreigner assuming that he knows all about another country's culture. I've already had an argument with another foreigner over this exact same thing. You have no idea what you are talking about.

First of all, he was born Donald Trump. He is still Donald Trump. He hasn't changed his name. His great-grandfather changed his name, but that doesn't reflect on his great-grandson in any way.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, the name could have been changed on accident. It's very common for names to change upon arriving to a new country, especially a hundred-plus years ago. It could have been a clerical error. Or maybe his great-grandfather was afraid of persecution because he was a German, so he changed his name to something more English-sounding.

Thirdly, (prepare for the rektoning),

THIS IS COMPLETELY NORMAL FOR AMERICA.

Almost every American has had their ancestral name changed. I'll give you an example, to show you how ridiculously common it is.

My last name is English. But guess what? It was once Norman. Oh no, I must be ashamed of my ancestors' conquests!

My great-grandfather's last name sounds Asian, but it was, in fact, an Anglicized version of a Scottish clan. Oh no! He must have been ashamed of his kilt!

TL;DR

John Oliver thinks it's shocking that Trump used to be Drumpf because his ancestors had the privilege of not having to leave their home country and changing their names to fit in. Learn some American history and quit shaming people for common occurrences.

#MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain will accomplish nothing but bolstering Trump's support. He's already the lowest of the low. He's the underdog. Making fun of his name is only going to help him. Honestly, Oliver's exposé was excellent on its own, but the playground-tier bullying tactics ruined it. Now he's made it easier for conservatives to dismiss the exposé.

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your mistakes make billions suffer.

Honestly, I don't care. I have no guilt over what happens to other countries. I have no control over it. Our elections are a joke. Now, why don't you maybe go tell Merkel to quit letting migrants rape her women?
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on March 02, 2016, 11:31:13 am
Bernie Sanders want's the US to become a comunist country.

Most people don't even know what "communism" is, as much as it is abused as a more or less universal threatening term. More or less everything limiting the profits of companies is blamed to be communism, no matter how much it really belongs to communism as defined. Bernie Sanders calls himself a "socialist", not a "communist"; there is a huge gap between both meanings.

Only "fat cats" can be afraid of being social. Free economy without social responsibility will destroy itself by depleting its most important resource: The solvent customers. The more asocial the economy gets, the fewer customers can afford a purchase. Ludwig Erhard understood. We should not try to worship Ferengi culture...
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on March 02, 2016, 12:14:27 pm
Rubio is too green.

How can someone be "too green" in a world that gets destroyed a bit more every day?
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on March 02, 2016, 12:23:49 pm
Most people don't even know what "communism" is, as much as it is abused as a more or less universal threatening term. More or less everything limiting the profits of companies is blamed to be communism, no matter how much it really belongs to communism as defined. Bernie Sanders calls himself a "socialist", not a "communist"; there is a huge gap between both meanings.

Only "fat cats" can be afraid of being social. Free economy without social responsibility will destroy itself by depleting its most important resource: The solvent customers. The more asocial the economy gets, the fewer customers can afford a purchase. Ludwig Erhard understood. We should not try to worship Ferengi culture...

I'm not sure I agree with your definition of social in this context. The idea behind socialism is that everyone forks over a larger portion of their income to the state, and the state takes care of them like a rich uncle - communism being more extreme as in you don't get paid, you just get taken care of like a small child.

There's communism on paper, and then there's communism in practice. One of the things that many of us Americans cherish is having the opportunity and freedom to work hard and benefit proportionally. That incentive to do better and live better has driven many folks to accomplishing great achievements whether if be financial, educational or personal satisfaction. People have fled other countries to come over here for that opportunity.

The direction that Sanders wants to go in is away from democracy and towards socialism (yes, I realize there's a spectrum) - which is going to rub many hard working and ambitious folks the wrong way. People who are on Welfare ( ie. poor, unemployed people who are too lazy to work and as a result, receive a check from the government out of pity ) will love this idea. It's like Welfare on steroids.  Similarly, those with no hope of getting anywhere or who are overwhelmed might see it similarly. There are also people who are on welfare for legitimate reasons, so I don't intend to lump them in the the lazy folks who abuse this system because they can.

Bernie is advocating that he will raise taxes significantly so that everyone can get free college and medical care. I have heard upwards of %10 for lower and middle class, and much more for the "one percent". I don't know what actual number would be realistic, and I don't think he really knows either. There are a few problems with this:

1. When you take the carrot away from the donkey, it stops following it. By taking away the ability to profit, you kill the incentive and people get lazy and sloppy. One of the positive things about competition is that is give reasons for companies ( and those individuals who work for companies) to thrive to produce better deals. ( That could mean a cheaper product, a better product, a more versatile product, or even offering a better way of paying for it )

2. Forcing everyone to pay into this college and medical plan means that many people will be forced to pay for something that they don't want or need. That right there is problematic.

3. As a president, he can't just change the country and force these plans on everyone. He needs to get congress to agree. ( Or else use executive orders and risk getting impeached and thrown out on his ass ). Half of congress is Republican ( which is the polar opposite ), the other half are Democrats ( which are somewhere between socialist and Republican ). So he would not get any support. Best case, we might have another four years of the kind of horse shit that Obama caused with his executive orders and stalemate with congress.


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How can someone be "too green" in a world that gets destroyed a bit more every day?
Green, meaning new. He's too junior for the job.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on March 02, 2016, 12:31:02 pm
This is utterly retarded. Keep in mind, I'm no Trump supporter, but you progressives are absolute idiots.

Progressive is bad, but aggressive is good? Watch your language, please.
We need to progress to get out of the current global situation. We might have different definitions of progress, though.


Now, why don't you maybe go tell Merkel to quit letting migrants rape her women?

Please allow me to correct your assumption: All crime statistics show that speaking in percentages, the migrants / refugees commit considerably less crimes then Germans, and most of their crimes are minor, like shoplifting. Yes, there have been some rapes by migrants / refugees, but far less then by long-time residents of Germany, be they foreigners or Germans.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on March 02, 2016, 12:36:28 pm

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How can someone be "too green" in a world that gets destroyed a bit more every day?
Green, meaning new. He's too junior for the job.

Classical case of misunderstanding, thanks for your explanation. Especially in the context of politics, most Germans will think "green = ecological".
But otherwise we also speak of "greenhorns" (Grünschnabel) being "green behind their ears".

Edit: Quote from Rygwyn's post corrected.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on March 02, 2016, 02:44:23 pm
I think volki was refering to a news story about syrian refugees raping or molesting german women. I honestly don't know if this was an isolated incident or if if happened more than once, but I do remember this being reported along with some suggestion that perhaps such behaviour was culturally accepted wherever they came from ( syria, iraq or wherever ). Not all countries view women as equals.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on March 02, 2016, 11:55:39 pm
Progressive is bad, but aggressive is good? Watch your language, please.
We need to progress to get out of the current global situation. We might have different definitions of progress, though.


Do you know what a progressive is?

Quote
adjective
1.
favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters:

Progressives are the aggressive ones.

Please allow me to correct your assumption: All crime statistics show that speaking in percentages, the migrants / refugees commit considerably less crimes then Germans, and most of their crimes are minor, like shoplifting. Yes, there have been some rapes by migrants / refugees, but far less then by long-time residents of Germany, be they foreigners or Germans.

This is the exact opposite of what I've heard and seen. Care to back any of that up? As far as I'm aware, statistics haven't had time to be published.

I think volki was refering to a news story about syrian refugees raping or molesting german women. I honestly don't know if this was an isolated incident or if if happened more than once, but I do remember this being reported along with some suggestion that perhaps such behaviour was culturally accepted wherever they came from ( syria, iraq or wherever ). Not all countries view women as equals.

It is called taharrush. It is basically a mob of men which harass and assault everyone around them because they greatly outnumber authorities. You'll notice that the Wikipedia page for it has been renamed to "Mass sexual assault in Egypt" despite this having occurred in far more places than Egypt.

Do you remember the reporter who was sexually assaulted by a mob in Tahrir Square? That was taharrush.

And yes, they don't view women as equals, but it's more about the foreign aspect. They wouldn't be so barbaric around their own women. Foreign women, though? Fair game.

Also, do I need to mention what happened to Rotherham?
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Ralas on March 03, 2016, 06:27:39 am
This thread makes me so angry, sad, and ashamed to be an American that I don't even know where to begin.

First off, we don't hate Trump because he "speaks his mind."  We hate him because he is a bumbling, megalomaniac xenophobe who has absolutely no idea how to run a country.  He thinks all Mexicans are criminals and rapists and all Muslims are terrorists.  His most concrete plans involve building walls, doing "something" about Muslims, and replacing Obamacare with "IDK something better."

Trump can't even maintain diplomatic relations with Fox News, who is universally recognized to have a huge bias toward his own side of the aisle.  Can you imagine him at peace talks between Palestine and Israel?  Things would blow up.  More than they already do, I mean.

As far as Socialism goes...that whole thing about the safety net (Welfare, Unemployment, etc) is complete hogwash.  It's often spouted by conservatives in favor of "trickle-down economics," which has been failing to work since at least the Nixon era.  People aren't fundamentally lazy--sure maybe a few of them are.  But you'll notice the evidence for this is always anecdotal.  When arguing politics with a conservative friend after a few too many G&T's he will inevitably mention his uncle's friend's cousin's wife's roommate who lives in a shack and doesn't work so that he can get welfare.  I'm not saying that these people don't exist, but they are a statistically negligent minority.  Most people who use the safety net want desperately to get off of it.  Think also about how a wider safety net would likely increase innovation.  For instance, I would love to quit my current job and start a business, but I'm afraid of what will happen if my business fails and I can't pay my rent.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on March 03, 2016, 09:43:22 am
Because I am a German, thus a Grammar Nazi, I will try to find an analogy between grammar and economic systems:

If communism is the superlative and socialism the comparative form, then what would be the positive form? IMHO, the "social market economy", as proposed by Ludwig Erhard. Capitalism is still the base, but the state is supported by economical profiteers due to their "social responsibility".

Practice has proven that it doesn't work voluntarily. Greed is more popular. Tax evasion is considered trivial offense.

By the way, practice has also proven that communism doesn't exist as declared, either. There is always a dictator abusing the system.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on March 03, 2016, 10:35:45 am

Do you know what a progressive is?

Quote
adjective
1.
favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters:

Progressives are the aggressive ones.

I fail to see the "aggressive" in your quoted definition. Without moving our fine butts, we are not getting out of the current situation. Progressive, not aggressive.

Please allow me to correct your assumption: All crime statistics show that speaking in percentages, the migrants / refugees commit considerably less crimes then Germans, and most of their crimes are minor, like shoplifting. Yes, there have been some rapes by migrants / refugees, but far less then by long-time residents of Germany, be they foreigners or Germans.

This is the exact opposite of what I've heard and seen. Care to back any of that up? As far as I'm aware, statistics haven't had time to be published.

Statistics are published regularly, and it is not that refugees are arriving only since yesterday in Germany. Some links:
http://www.morgenpost.de/politik/article207055921/BKA-Kriminalitaet-durch-Zuwanderer-moderat-gestiegen.html
http://videos.huffingtonpost.de/politik/bka-bericht-diese-zahlen-zeigen-die-wahrheit-ueber-kriminalitaet-bei-fluechtlingen_id_5290630.html
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/kriminalitaet-kriminalitaetsstatistik-von-zuwanderern-viele-bagatellen-wenig-gewalt-1.2867476
http://www.taz.de/!5277913/
etc

Please give your sources as well.

And, yes, there have been cases of sexual molestation and even rape, and these must be persecuted by the full strength of the Law.

Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on March 03, 2016, 10:51:42 am
First off, we don't hate Trump because he "speaks his mind."  We hate him because he is a bumbling, megalomaniac xenophobe who has absolutely no idea how to run a country.

How many of the other candidates have experience running the country?
Zip.
This is a new experience for any candidate unless they are being re-elected, and with it comes a sharp learning curve.

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  He thinks all Mexicans are criminals and rapists and all Muslims are terrorists.

That is not what he's said and is not accurate. Replace the "all" with "some" and you'll be a bit closer.  As for what he thinks, it's not knowable and not really relevant.

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  His most concrete plans involve building walls, doing "something" about Muslims, and replacing Obamacare with "IDK something better."

What's interesting about this point is that when candidates spout off about specific plans, they typically don't carry through once elected. I suspect it's because they are not privy to the whole story until they are in. ( That or they are just spouting bullshit ). Given this, I'm fine with a rough idea and some history of competence in an executive position.

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Trump can't even maintain diplomatic relations with Fox News, who is universally recognized to have a huge bias toward his own side of the aisle.  Can you imagine him at peace talks between Palestine and Israel?  Things would blow up.  More than they already do, I mean.

You have a point there , but I don't think FOX news was interested in supporting him specifically. Remember, he's hitting for the Republicans but he's not bound by them like Cruz and Rubio ( who would be completely helpless without their money ). When a candidate is entirely dependent on their sponsor's money, they are their bitch ( or puppet ). Trump is neither - like Romney( who I despised for reasons not relevant to this topic ) he has his own money and/or means of raising it.

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As far as Socialism goes...that whole thing about the safety net (Welfare, Unemployment, etc) is complete hogwash.  It's often spouted by conservatives in favor of "trickle-down economics," which has been failing to work since at least the Nixon era.  People aren't fundamentally lazy--sure maybe a few of them are.

There are entire communities where people make a lifestyle out of living off of welfare and food stamps. Some kids grow up thinking that "EBT" cards are the same as "DEBIT" cards. ( They are plastic cards that are used to distribute money to poor people electronically - not the same as a card that gives you access to money you have earned. ) I would cite some references, but I really don't want people accusing me of being racist or anti-religious or anti-semetic or whatever. It's a sticky topic. If you want to know more about it, google it.

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But you'll notice the evidence for this is always anecdotal.  When arguing politics with a conservative friend after a few too many G&T's he will inevitably mention his uncle's friend's cousin's wife's roommate who lives in a shack and doesn't work so that he can get welfare.  I'm not saying that these people don't exist, but they are a statistically negligent minority.

Let's see... Bronx, Harlem, Kiryas Joel to name a few. We're not talking about some lazy college kid who found a way to beat the system. ( Not all people in these areas are on welfare, but many are. ) This is not anecdotal. Here's some details of the percentage of folks who are getting food stamps etc...  ( Mind you, these food stamps are paid for by people with jobs - many of which are struggling to feed their own families )
http://frac.org/pdf/ny_times_snap_poverty_formatted.pdf

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Most people who use the safety net want desperately to get off of it. 

I applaud those who are caught by the net, get up and recover. That's one example of proper use. For those who are genuinely disabled or who need a hand temporarily, they too are using this resource as intended.

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Think also about how a wider safety net would likely increase innovation.  For instance, I would love to quit my current job and start a business, but I'm afraid of what will happen if my business fails and I can't pay my rent.

I don't think giving out more money is going to breed incentive. Rewarded behavior tends to repeat. Giving money is essentially giving a reward.

As for starting your own business, I would love to work for myself too, but similarly, I don't know how I would transition from from my job to self employment  AND ensure that I make the same amount of money and benefits or more. I don't think welfare is going to help with that. For that, you probably need to take some business classes or seek a mentor.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Calmus on March 03, 2016, 08:45:28 pm
Of the likely US presidency candidates I don't really think Trump would be the worst choice as US president. Trump is often portrayed as quite radical but another republican candidate Rubio could be much worse in this regard.
I have the impression that Trump is more independent from the US war machinery, Goldmann Sachs and certain other lobbyist groups than Hillary. That might be the reason why much media and most of the other republican establishment doesn't like him.

(for German readers: http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Was-kaeme-mit-Trump-3126805.html )
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: cdmoreland on March 03, 2016, 10:05:24 pm
Trump is more like Clinton than he is different.

Rubio betrayed the voters of Florida and that is the reason he is in trouble in his home state and is not running again for his senate seat.

Cruz is hated because he says what he believes and will do what he says he will do. Whether you agree with him or not, he is an honorable man.

The USA is different than any other government in the world. We are 50 independent states in a federal union and we are in a fight now to give control back to the states as is stated in the Constitution. I am a citizen of the State of Ohio which makes me a US citizen. The states have different laws and if I move to another state I can become a citizen there.

This election may decide if we remain a republic or lose what is left of our rights.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Eonwind on March 04, 2016, 10:35:30 am
This election may decide if we remain a republic or lose what is left of our rights.

I will just post what I think so you US citizen can really think carefully what and where you would like to go.

I was raised thinking of USA as a paragon of freedom and opportunities, a model for the world to follow up in these moral values. Of course it was all but perfect, just like you would expect from any other human-made things, but it was a positive model.

Nowadays I think it's no longer true.

I will not go down writing in details the many reason why I had to change my mind (sadly) but I will tell you these thoughts are not only based on what I've read or heard from the media but it's mainly based on the experiences of a family member who lived and worked in USA for almost 2 years.

Sorry if the judgment seems a bit harsh, but I write it nonetheless because sometimes to be told by people who lives outside our country how they feel about us, can help us understand better ourselves for good and for bad.

Whatever you will choose, choose carefully!!!
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Wocib on March 04, 2016, 04:44:08 pm
You can't stop the capitalism, so just accept it or leave...
Until it fails down itself, and I hope as soon as possible.
this world is not governed by government, but by the BANKS...
If you really want to change something... change the banking system,
President are just marionettes
:offtopic:
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on March 19, 2016, 08:52:38 pm
Simpsons predicted it...

(http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/33540.jpg)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on March 20, 2016, 01:33:56 pm
Sorry to burst your bubble, LigH, but that scene is a fabrication. Notice the resemblances, too specific.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on April 04, 2016, 11:41:19 am
Blessed be, summing it up in a picture:

(http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/33567.jpg)

People start wondering what could be worse: Electing Trump and letting him ruin the world he doesn't care about — or facing riots of his discipleship when he is somehow rejected... :o
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on April 05, 2016, 05:47:14 am
tbh I forgot this thread existed.

You're only making my love of Trump greater by spreading lies about him. Seriously. He used to be a joke to me. Now, look what you've done. I'm actually considering voting for the guy.

If progressives and the media didn't lie about him constantly, he wouldn't have as much support. You're repeating company-bought rhetoric and making people want to support him.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on April 05, 2016, 08:39:18 am
You cannot lie about Trump. He already does it on his own.

In the federal state Bavaria (south of Germany, somehow similar to Texas in the US), we have a very similar politician named Horst Seehofer. He uses to deny his own opinion twice a day on the average. He proves that the German term of denial/disclaim/repudiating (dementieren) is closely related to dementia. The only relief is that he is unable to rule whole Germany, not to mention the whole earth.

The same lack of concept (even less clue than Bush jr.) together with the position of the president of the USA, instead, is a risk to the whole earth for sure. A lack of concept won't "make America great again". It will be the end of reason. Germany is already joking about preparing for millions of American emigrants...
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on April 05, 2016, 12:16:29 pm
LigH,

Which of the current presidential candidates do not lie?

If Trump's "lying" disqualifies him or makes him unfit for election, then does the same logic apply to all the other candidates?

Hillary Clinton lies.
Ted Cruz lies.
Bernie Sanders is full of crap.
Kasich, I don't really know much about to be honest, so I won't brand him as a liar.

The rest of the candidates are far to unpopular to have a chance at this point. They simply won't get enough votes.




Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on April 05, 2016, 06:19:36 pm
If a politician told the truth, he would be unpopular and miss votes. Of course, they all lie to some degree, or don't talk about the whole topic at least. But that's not my main concern. What I find even more disturbing are politicians who do not even seem to have any goals besides being different, unusual, popular. Either getting power or keeping power, depending on the current state. And anything that promises a step into that direction will be said, no matter whether they share the opinion they tell or not. The mind changes with the direction of the wind coming from the people. Until they have the power. Then the wind comes from the lobbies.

One is known to be ultraconservative. Fine, so you know his position. Another says to be socialist. Fine, so you know his position. And then there is one who has a different position for every possible elector...
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on April 05, 2016, 09:20:07 pm
abloobloo

You're your own worst enemy, Ligh.

Who do you want us to vote for? Sanders is probably going to lose to Hillary. Trump has a good chance of becoming the Republican nominee.

If it's Hillary versus Trump, and you think she's less of a liar than him, then wow. You really know nothing about American politics. You have more hate for Trump than I have for Hillary, yet you can't actually explain why Trump is so bad. Hillary has actually gotten innocent people killed. Hillary has completely destroyed prosperous countries. Hillary has paid social media sites to hide negative information about her. Hillary has defended criminals not only with the law, but with her own (im)morality. Hillary has flip-flopped on almost every major issue.

To me, she's the antichrist. At least I have reasons.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on April 05, 2016, 11:30:38 pm
They all have plusses and minuses. I was liking Trump initially, but some of the things he has said lately have seriously dulled my enthusiasm for him. His comments about NATO and nukes are scary and to be honest, your depiction of him as the Joker was pretty good. The other candidates while less comical, are pretty bad too.

If you watch some of the interviews of Ted Cruz, you'll see that he's slippery as an eel - rarely giving a straight answer. He's also a dirty politician and a rather inexperienced one at that. His party committed fraud during the primaries when they mailed letters out to voters in an attempt to manipulate them to vote for him. ( this isn't election fraud technically, because it's only the primaries). Between that and the recent horse shit over Trump's wife ( Cruze's party tried to smear his wife, but it backfired terribly), you have to wonder what kind of dishonest crap he might try to pull as president.

Did I mention that Cruz is a Southern Baptist? These folks are known for dismissing science in favor of their religious beliefs. I don't know if he's as crazy as Ben Carson was, but this is a red flag for me.


Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat, he's a Socilaist - which is rather alien to American politics. He's labeled himself as a Democrat only because he knows he would never get elected if he labeled himself as an independent or a socialist. It's a lie just like his lies about free education, free medical insurance and so on. He wants to raise taxes significantly to pay for these services which means that people who already pay for these services out of their own pocket will now have to pay the govenment for these services instead and use the government's crappy version of these services. This is what happened with "Obama Care". It benefits people who are on welfare ( people who get public assistance from the government like money to live off of ) the most and to everyone else, it's more of  a burden. ( people on welfare do not pay income tax, so for them, it's free )

Hillary is just what you described - a chameleon. She will say anything for your vote and then go off and do whatever she wants. She also has a long long history of questionable business transactions that she and her husband should probably be investigated for. Given the Benghazi incident where people died as a result of her not doing her job, I don't think it's prudent to give her greater responsibilities. ( She is still being investigated by the FBI over the Benghazi incident )

*cough* WATERGATE  *cough*

Anyway... they all kinda suck in ways, but we need to pick one.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on April 06, 2016, 12:34:31 am
I can't tell Americans who to vote for. That is their own responsibility. I only hope that most of them know why they vote, and what they vote for. But Germans are not different. There are also a lot of people who don't care about which party has a program supporting their needs, they even vote for a party which admitted to have no program yet ... just to protest against the established parties. They are still more afraid of a second GDR than of a Fourth Reich. Nothing is more important than being against. No matter against what.

Today I saw an amazing political satire show ("Die Anstalt" ~ "The Asylum", I guess the name of this monthly series is possibly based on Douglas Adams' concept of being outside the asylum here by definition (http://www.terindell.com/asylum/docs/asylum.html)). It explained the paradox situation of politics in Germany with stage plays related to Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Nothinghave.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on April 06, 2016, 01:22:00 am
Out of curiosity, the GDR was when Germany was split into four parts after World War II, right? East German was run by the Soviets who were not very nice to say the least.  Are they afraid of being broken by outside forces up in a similar fashion, or it is more a fear of the country becoming divided due to differing political views or ideological disharmony caused by immigration and a failure of outsiders to assimilate and integrate into the existing culture?


Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Can-ned Food on April 09, 2016, 01:32:15 am

Anyway... they all kinda suck in ways, but we need to pick one.


Ahaha, but I couldn't resist:

   "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse,
"why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
   "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the
vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've
voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
   "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
   "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
   "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
   "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong
lizard might get in."

 :innocent:
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on April 09, 2016, 07:35:27 am

Anyway... they all kinda suck in ways, but we need to pick one.


Ahaha, but I couldn't resist:

   "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse,
"why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
   "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the
vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've
voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
   "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
   "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
   "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
   "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong
lizard might get in."

 :innocent:

*applause*

Nice :)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on July 26, 2016, 03:41:43 pm
I hate being right regarding unpleasant topics ... but I did start this topic with the term "feelings". And now I was proven right by John Oliver:

Republican National Congress: The event where feelings create an alternate reality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I)

Especially Newt Gingrich insists in taking feelings more serious than facts. So he reveals how magic spells actually work...


But wait. The Democrats National Congress isn't less wicked. It's the event where the chased is proud of the conspiracy against him.
_

@ Rigwyn:

Sorry for missing your reply, I get no email notifications.

The GDR was the eastern area under Soviet Russian control, in contrast to the FRG being the combined regions under control of the Allies (France, Great Britain, USA). But the pressure from the outside was just as threatening as the pressure from the inside, having a secret service (Ministry of Safety of the State, brief: "StaSi") using a system of mistrust (everyone might be an "off-the-record staff" spying on neighbors and denouncing you for free speech, only known by a pseudonym, like "IM Erika" and "IM Larve"). So from a point of view, it was just as dangerous as in fascist times under the NSDAP and "Gestapo" (Secret State Police).

I just don't understand why the StaSi feels more dangerous than the Gestapo to many people, as if communism is considered a lot more dangerous than fascism. Propaganda will have had its value here, along with a lack of understanding the literal meaning of the terms.

Even among colleagues, I hear opinions like supporters of "left politics" are considered mainly extremists and rioters, whereas I would rather consider "left politics" as more socially responsible than economically liberal.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on August 02, 2016, 10:52:24 am
And once again: The Simpsons nailed it (http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/33956.jpg)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on August 02, 2016, 02:14:33 pm
LigH, I think you're the only one who cares. Please stop. It's tearing our family apart. The kids are asking where you are. Please come home.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on August 05, 2016, 05:46:17 am
And once again: The Simpsons nailed it (http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/33956.jpg)

Choosing Between Trump or Clinton is Like Picking Between Cholera or Gonorrhea - Julian Assange
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Sarras Volcae on August 05, 2016, 07:57:06 am
Ligh, I'm going to vote for Trump just to spite people like you.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on August 05, 2016, 09:15:25 am
Well, that may be the only reason I could reenact: Defiance. Anything else could be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on August 05, 2016, 07:47:35 pm
Ligh, I'm going to vote for Trump just to spite people like you.

NOT funny.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on August 05, 2016, 09:40:22 pm
>TFW the destiny of "the most important" country in the world is to be decided between a cold blooded killer and a clow.

I'd rather have a failure of a businessman in the White House, than a warmongering witch, to be honest. I feel the world will be safer when you can just shut Trump up by dangling a briefcase full of money in front of him.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Sarras Volcae on August 05, 2016, 10:29:37 pm
Ligh, I'm going to vote for Trump just to spite people like you.

NOT funny.

I'm not being funny.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on August 06, 2016, 09:08:59 am
Ligh, I'm going to vote for Trump just to spite people like you.

NOT funny.

I'm not being funny.
*facepalm*
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on October 17, 2016, 11:27:21 am
I can hardly celebrate the revelation that I (among others, certainly) predicted what is known today as post-truth politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics) or "post-factual era": The value of facts became lower than the value of emotions. Journalists are losing their purpose, the more they try to be a good role model and investigate. The modern "pitchfork mob" (most of all, PEGIDA, as notorious German organization) prefers yelling "Lügenpresse" (Lying press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press‎)), not understanding that they leave no media for themselves to report to the public about their point of view when they mistrust all media with absolute bias. They enclose themselves in their filter bubble (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble) of the "furor-politan" ("Wutbürger", in contrast to the cosmopolitan ~ Weltbürger).

Being unable to counter the feeling of governmental betrayal, abused by populists, with facts learned from the rise of the Nazis in Germany almost 85 years ago, leaves me helpless and in fear of history repeating.

What may be the solution? Fighting bad emotions with good emotions? Exaggerating the ridiculousness of populism?

I need to calm down. Give me a dog to pat. Good boy.

(http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/34507.jpg)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: cdmoreland on October 18, 2016, 06:26:52 am
Might his name be Donald? Looks like he has a squirrel on his head.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on October 19, 2016, 01:23:20 am
Ligh, I've been thinking about this too. I think the mainstream news media is broken in the US with regard to politics, at least. I've been gravitating towards Twitter in order to help pick up on news that news media has chosen to effectively censor by NOT reporting it at all.

I think where this might lead is some sort of decentralized, end-user produced news reporting in the same way that user generated content on Youtube is replacing much of the crap that we used to watch on TV.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on October 19, 2016, 08:48:39 am
Media looking from a different angle is already denounced as not trustworthy per se, and collaborating with the enemy ... this week British banks told Russia Today to close their bank accounts in december.

Do we have to rely on "conspiracy blogs" now to get a diverse source of information? (In Germany, Fefe's Blog (https://blog.fefe.de) is quite famous.) – Whatever Mike & the Mechanics originally meant, it matches this interpretation better than ever:

Quote
Now the world is getting older
There's a few things to be said
Do you believe the things they told you
Do you believe the things you've read

There's a rumour on the corner
But it's always been denied
Cause they don't want you any wiser
You're just toeing the party line

From the west side to the east side
From the north side to the south
You'll never get bad information
If you believe in the word of mouth

Look out for those who still want to hang on
Look out for those who live in the past
Get out and listen to the whisper
Because the times are changing fast

...
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on October 19, 2016, 09:34:38 am
Yeah, and that's the problem with "grassroots" news sources. Anyone can publish anything, so you really don't know if the small news sources are just shills like the major news sources. Personally, I troll through all the garbage that gets posted to twitter and then look for confirmation or disproof elsewhere.



Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Dilihin on October 21, 2016, 12:11:05 pm
Well dunno, european media vs. american media is really different + europeans dont vote so the election news are just to get more reads here. Anyhow both candidates look bad. Is there  any statistic who has bigger support?
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on October 21, 2016, 10:10:13 pm
Definitely think Hillary has the most support. From an European point of view, I think it'd be hilarious if Trump won the elections. It'd be exhilarating. Then everyone would scramble to awake their dormant agents so they can sabotage the US/Russian nuclear codes, but after that, it's gonna be funny again.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on October 22, 2016, 12:06:33 pm
Well dunno, european media vs. american media is really different + europeans dont vote so the election news are just to get more reads here. Anyhow both candidates look bad. Is there  any statistic who has bigger support?

That depends on who you ask. The majority of our major news outlets cater to an audience that is mostly on the Democrat's side, so any news that you read from them will favor the Democrats ( Hillary).  The main Republic news outlet is Fox News which is known for it's poor quality reporting and blatant Republican propaganda. CNN, another news outlet that's heavily biased on the Democrat side loves to throw around poll numbers and statistics, however they tell you nothing about how they gathered those statistics or about the makeup for those being polled, so unless you are a complete fool, you cannot trust their numbers.

One trick that both parties are using is to claim that they "are winning" or that the other side is losing. This is to encourage or discourage people from voting from one side or the other. Initially, Trump used this tactic when competing with the other Republicans. Now, Hillary has the Democrat biased media using the same tactic.

Also worth noting, Hillary paying a shit load of money to the major media outlets, so who's side do you think they will favor? They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on October 27, 2016, 09:14:23 am
Some of us may be old enough to realize that Trump is the boss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmbttoxUeE), but Hillary is NOT THE MOMMA!  ;D
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on April 10, 2017, 11:05:33 am
Smokey Bear is broke. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8-qB7KVYAQ54UP.jpg) Thanks, Trump!
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on May 29, 2017, 08:44:53 am
G7 Kindergarten:

(http://frupic.frubar.net/thumbs/35268.png) (http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/35268.jpg)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on May 29, 2017, 04:52:56 pm
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on May 30, 2017, 01:56:43 am
I guess LigH is in full support of the Fourth Reich.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on May 30, 2017, 01:58:11 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA8aVBhWAAE3HXq.jpg)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA8aVBhWAAE3HXq.jpg
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on May 30, 2017, 08:29:20 am
Insulting a supporter of left (= pro-social) politics as nazi ... can it get more paradox?

Rigwyn, you understand me. Brilliant reply!
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on May 30, 2017, 10:04:17 am
Insulting a supporter of left (= pro-social) politics as nazi ... can it get more paradox?

Rigwyn, you understand me. Brilliant reply!

No, it is not paradoxical in the slightest. Doesn't the term "nazi" come from he national-socialist party? I mean, it's right there in the name, socialist. And I'm sure you support your country one way or the other. So, technically speaking...
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on May 30, 2017, 11:30:38 am
It's all disguise. Names of parties have little meaning. Nazis are as socialistic as our Christian {Democratic|Social, depending on the federal state} Union is Christian or united. Furthermore: Our "Social Democrats" are hardly social, they invented "Hartz IV" (combined unemployment and welfare aid with oppressive restrictions) and "private retirement provision" to ensure that poor people will stay poor forever, to protect those who are not much affected by poverty and social contributions (including themselves, among clerks and other wealthy people). They are responsible for the imminent poverty of the elderly in one of the richest countries in Europe. Most of all: Gerhard "Gazprom puppet" Schröder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schröder#Gazprom)!

Marc-Uwe Kling: Wer hat uns verraten? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph-vHNUBUdc) (Who betrayed us? Social Democrats!)

By the way ... I wish I knew anyone who is both competent in language science and has a little time to discuss this matter with me. I found that there are some terms which have only little meaning on their own, you always need to put them into an additional context. One of the most obvious examples is "freedom", or related: "liberty". What does freedom - on its own - mean, at all? Is it a positive term per se? I doubt; I can imagine a negative context easily: When someone takes more liberty than he deserves, thereby limiting the freedom of other people. This is the kind of context I see for our "Liberal Democrats": I am afraid that they only care for their economic and legal liberty, to reduce governmental control and restrictions. And turning social economy into free economy always happens at the expense of the people who are already too poor to spare money for investments.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on May 31, 2017, 01:06:26 am
Quote
Names of parties have little meaning.
+1

These days "Liberals" hate free speech if it disagrees with their own opinion.
They call Trump a "fascist" without really understanding what fascism is, and many want "socialism" just to be rebellious.

Liberals react violently to Milo Yiannopoulos speaking at their campus ( note: they invited him )
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/

Liberals freak out at thought of hearing Ann Coulter's speech ( She too was invited )
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/04/26/ann-coulter-speech-canceled-at-uc-berkeley-amid-fears-for-safety/?utm_term=.d211227267eb

... for your amusement:

Liberal Democrat Explained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32hdl8Pb_m4

Conservative vs Liberal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYNukv5rWCY

(https://image.ibb.co/esyUOF/merkel_birds.jpg)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on May 31, 2017, 10:54:23 am
Doesn't the term "nazi" come from he national-socialist party? I mean, it's right there in the name, socialist. And I'm sure you support your country one way or the other. So, technically speaking...

In German, Nazi is pronounced exactly like the first part of National, so the socialist part is not directly reflected there. It is implied, of course.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on May 31, 2017, 11:09:55 am
By the way ... I wish I knew anyone who is both competent in language science and has a little time to discuss this matter with me. I found that there are some terms which have only little meaning on their own, you always need to put them into an additional context. One of the most obvious examples is "freedom", or related: "liberty". What does freedom - on its own - mean, at all? Is it a positive term per se? I doubt; I can imagine a negative context easily: When someone takes more liberty than he deserves, thereby limiting the freedom of other people. This is the kind of context I see for our "Liberal Democrats": I am afraid that they only care for their economic and legal liberty, to reduce governmental control and restrictions. And turning social economy into free economy always happens at the expense of the people who are already too poor to spare money for investments.

Maybe, as a trained linguist (Dipl.-Ling.), I can be of help there.
You almost got it right - no term on its own has much meaning, the real meaning always comes from the context. The reason is that natural languages (as opposed to artificial languages like programming languages or logic languages) are full of ambiguities. Natural languages evolve over centuries and millennia, without much external control: People talk how they wish to talk.
These ambiguities start on the lexical level, and go up to (and sometimes beyond) the use of whole sentences.
And, of course, many people have their own definitions of terms like liberty or freedom.
Please feel free to ask more specific questions. I have a tendency to lecture people  :-[, so I tried to keep my answer short this time.  :)
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on June 01, 2017, 10:23:45 am
That was already helpful, gonger. A certain level of ambiguity as universal attribute of all language elements... less like Boolean logic (true or false), but rather like fuzzy logic (more or less fitting). Now I wonder if there is a "technical term" in linguistics for words with a rather high level of ambiguity. Something like "inherently vague".

Specifically regarding "freedom", there are a lot of fixed terms as complex phrases to make the context clearer. Many will have heard about the "freedom of speech" (although possibly often not understood its consequences, as it does not include a license to kill those who don't agree with your opinion). Being born in the GDR, we often talked about a "freedom of travel" (though not to be confused with "freedom of movement", or "labor mobility", as this was more related to vacation trips). The common concept seems to be any kind of "freedom from oppression"; a difference between several types of freedom will be how much granting a freedom to some will take some freedom from others (e.g. supporting a strong economy by removing state control does not guarantee increase in public wealth: there is no "trickle down effect" as much as promised).
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on June 01, 2017, 10:01:29 pm
Insulting a supporter of left (= pro-social) politics as nazi ... can it get more paradox?

Not an insult. An accusation. I'd say it's becoming clearer and clearer Merkel is trying to strongarm the EU into a state (empire) led by Germany. Surprised you haven't heard this before in reference to the EU.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on June 02, 2017, 11:52:53 am
I'd say it's becoming clearer and clearer Merkel is trying to strongarm the EU into a state (empire) led by Germany. Surprised you haven't heard this before in reference to the EU.


Some interesting facts:


Even though there are some serious problems in/with the EU, it is the most stable zone on this planet (no major conflicts since WWII). Most countries are doing well economically, and those who are not are unsurprisingly on top of the Corruption lists.
I hope Macron will do well during the Parliament elections. He is clearly in favour of the EU, but also wants to improve it. That's the best attitude.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 02, 2017, 01:15:06 pm
I come to these forums to complain about a laggy game, not to diss a talking Cheeto with a bad fake hairdo.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: LigH on June 02, 2017, 02:17:09 pm
You don't have to; nobody forces you. :)

And of course, Germany has its own issues now. First the Autobahn network, now the schools, will be rent to investors in so-called "Public-Private Partnerships". That's the reason why we need a road charge for passenger cars too (how else could investments in roads generate profits, eventually?); now try to imagine how investments in schools may pay (we already have schools with cracked walls and broken bathrooms, how much worse could it get when profit gets optimized?).

P.S.: Not to forget current accusations of embezzlement in the management of Toll Collect, the company which handles the road charge for freight vehicles on Autobahns already.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Volki on June 03, 2017, 01:36:01 am
I'd say it's becoming clearer and clearer Merkel is trying to strongarm the EU into a state (empire) led by Germany. Surprised you haven't heard this before in reference to the EU.


  • Germany is the biggest payer in the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union))
  • Germany and France have always been the motors of the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union))
[/list]

I'm aware of these, and this is why I wish Le Pen had a chance in France. Also, lacking conflict doesn't immediately equate to a good thing. I'm actually shocked that your countries haven't revolted against their respective governments and the EU, but that's probably due to a lack of liberalism within your cultures.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: Rigwyn on June 03, 2017, 02:25:36 am
I was under the impression that people were divided over the EU especially in light of the forced acceptance of refugees and the problems that some of them caused. My question is, will the EU bend to the will of it's members or will it remain rigid and snap?

Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: netforce10 on June 03, 2017, 12:04:23 pm
I'm aware of these, and this is why I wish Le Pen had a chance in France. Also, lacking conflict doesn't immediately equate to a good thing. I'm actually shocked that your countries haven't revolted against their respective governments and the EU, but that's probably due to a lack of liberalism within your cultures.

I think there's actually some conflict in Europe, but I don't think the people from most countries in Europe have a strong tendency to go on the streets to protest. What we do see is that more extreme parties have formed. And I'm actually quite shocked you would revolt over things like those happening in Europe, for me personally it would take a lot before I would revolt against my government, something in the order of them abolishing our freedom of religion or our democracy would be needed(to name just two things). I may have missed a large issue in some country however as I dont track news as much as I should let alone that of other countries.

As towards the Europa lacking liberalism within our culture, I strongly disagree with that but that most likely comes from different definitions and opinions.(I'm from the Netherlands btw and can't really speak about the culture in other countries.)

Lastly, small note/question Gonger, the influence of countries in the EU does depend on the size of their population as countries with a larger population hold more seats in parliament than those with small populations. Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on June 03, 2017, 12:42:09 pm
Lastly, small note/question Gonger, the influence of countries in the EU does depend on the size of their population as countries with a larger population hold more seats in parliament than those with small populations. Or am I missing something?

I am German, living and working in Luxembourg, so let's take these countries for comparison.
Luxembourg has roughly 600,000 inhabitants, and 6 seats in European Parliament.
Germany has 82,000,000 inhabitants, and 96 seats in European Parliament.
So it is 16 times the number of seats, as opposed to 136 times the population. Therefore the size of population is not really reflected there. In absolute numbers of course there is a difference.
Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
Post by: gonger on June 03, 2017, 12:58:01 pm
    I'd say it's becoming clearer and clearer Merkel is trying to strongarm the EU into a state (empire) led by Germany. Surprised you haven't heard this before in reference to the EU.


    • Germany is the biggest payer in the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union))
    • Germany and France have always been the motors of the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union))
    [/list]

    I'm aware of these, and this is why I wish Le Pen had a chance in France. Also, lacking conflict doesn't immediately equate to a good thing. I'm actually shocked that your countries haven't revolted against their respective governments and the EU, but that's probably due to a lack of liberalism within your cultures.

    What do you mean there? You are in favour of racism in France? And Germany and France should take up their century-long wars again?
    And why revolt against something that most people appreciate?
    Let me repeat what you did not quote from my previous post:
    Even though there are some serious problems in/with the EU, it is the most stable zone on this planet (no major conflicts since WWII). Most countries are doing well economically, and those who are not are unsurprisingly on top of the Corruption lists.

    Most people I know are in favour of the EU, and since I am German living and working in multi-national Luxembourg (the EU country with the highest percentage of foreigners), I meet people from many different countries. There is room for improvement, of course, but without the EU there would be no common currency, many different trade regulations, and less peace.
    Trade and travel in Europe have never before been so easy.
    And there is this enlightening 1:09 minute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oor7fAmmiQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oor7fAmmiQ)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: netforce10 on June 03, 2017, 03:19:22 pm
    I disagree, seeing as you marginalized it to nothing originally. Germany as a whole still has 16 times the influence of Luxembourg. and if you look at it from a citizens perspective then a citizen from Luxembourg has ~8.5 times the influence of a German citizen.

    The amount of votes are not directly proportional to the amount of seats but the amount of a country's seats does relate to its population. That said, there's also the European council which evens it out even more so in the end its quite close to even for every country but not completely so.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 03, 2017, 06:57:40 pm
    netforce10, I was of course exaggerating a bit to show how absurd the idea is, that a single state - not to mention a single politician! - can move the whole EU in a certain direction.
    IMHO it is a good thing that the power representation is under-proportional, because otherwise small countries (Malta, Luxembourg, Estonia, Cyprus,...) would have nothing to say at all. This would thwart the whole purpose of the EU, and lead at absurdum its motto: "In Varietate Concordia" ("United in Diversity").
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 04, 2017, 04:07:20 pm
    ...Most countries are doing well economically, and those who are not are unsurprisingly on top of the Corruption lists.
    Your argument is totally invalid, Finlands economy is totally trash but its 3rd LEAST corrupted nation.
    On top of that, EU mostly benefits countries which can afford to pay for it (eg. Germany). Some smaller countries have even chanced their basic laws because of EU. EU shouldn't decide laws of countries. I'm just waiting that some bigger EU countries (eg. france) leave EU so smaller countries like Finland can leave it aswell. Of course, i wouldn't mind if the EU got total overhauling.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 04, 2017, 09:45:58 pm
    Dilihin, while things could definitely be better for Finland, the situation is not that bad. Economy is back at growth. Slow in comparison to almost all other EU countries, but growing:
    http://www.focus-economics.com/countries/finland (http://www.focus-economics.com/countries/finland)
    http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/14617-bank-of-finland-raises-growth-forecast-for-2017-to-1-6.html (http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/14617-bank-of-finland-raises-growth-forecast-for-2017-to-1-6.html)
    https://www.bofbulletin.fi/en/economic-outlook/ (https://www.bofbulletin.fi/en/economic-outlook/)

    But I confess that I was unaware of the crisis in Finland. With all the troubles in Greece, Italy, Portugal, somehow Finland was never really in the focus of news, at least not in Germany / Luxembourg. Why so, one wonders...

    Three cheers to Finland for their fight against corruption. You are right, they are ranked 3rd best, and not only in the EU, but a list of 176 countries:
    https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 (https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016)

    But what do you mean with "EU mostly benefits countries which can afford to pay for it (eg. Germany)"?
    Germany profits because EU makes trade easier than ever, and Germany is a trading country - we import many raw materials, and export goods.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 04, 2017, 10:05:08 pm
    While the economy is currently slighty better than a bit before, the future is certainly not looking as bright. ofc it is indeed possible that it will stay growing, which i certainly hope for.

    Gonger, What i mean is that Germany has more influence than some countries and benefits more from things like Euro than smaller countries like Finland. My views are quite limited as i don't have as much time as i want to read about things, but as far as i know, atleast Finland doesn't benefits as much as Germany from EU and it's more free trade.

    And i'm not suprised at all that Finland slipped from your mind, Finland is, afterall, quite peacefull sector so there is really not much anything happening out here :D (Finland is mostly trees anyway.... ;D )
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 04, 2017, 10:57:29 pm
    While the economy is currently slighty better than a bit before, the future is certainly not looking as bright. ofc it is indeed possible that it will stay growing, which i certainly hope for.

    I share this hope. I know some Fins here in Luxembourg, and they are charming people.

    Gonger, What i mean is that Germany has more influence than some countries and benefits more from things like Euro than smaller countries like Finland. My views are quite limited as i don't have as much time as i want to read about things, but as far as i know, atleast Finland doesn't benefits as much as Germany from EU and it's more free trade.

    Not so sure about the influence (see my previous posts in this thread), but I totally agree that Germany is maybe the country that benefits most from the EU. We are really depending on trade, since our natural raw materials are limited.

    And i'm not suprised at all that Finland slipped from your mind, Finland is, afterall, quite peacefull sector so there is really not much anything happening out here :D (Finland is mostly trees anyway.... ;D )

    It did not really slip from my mind, but I honestly cannot remember it being mentioned in German news that Finland was (and to a degree still is) in an economical crisis. I guess it got somehow lost between all the reports about Greece, especially. Still, I should have expected some mention of it...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 04, 2017, 11:04:11 pm
    Perhaps it's because that situation in Greek escalated a bit more than Finland, where the debt is just steadily rising.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on June 06, 2017, 08:45:09 am
    Greece is a good example of the political advantage of Germany in the EU: Hardly any other country voted so vehemently against a debt cut and for a kind of "reforms" which mainly hits the poor. The credits don't help Greece recovering, only paying debts and interests back to the (mainly German) banks.

    And Gonger will know best what a great couple Juncker and Oettinger are in the European Commission. Conservative governments know well which kind of representatives they support. Sometimes I wonder how they define the term "people" in the phrase "for the benefit of people"; possibly those with an above-average income. The rest is only noticeable when elections are scheduled.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 06, 2017, 03:27:27 pm
    BOOOOORIIIIIIIING
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 06, 2017, 10:37:39 pm
    BOOOOORIIIIIIIING

    Start new topic?  ;D
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility — image of Lëtzebuerg
    Post by: Can-ned Food on June 07, 2017, 05:44:33 am
    Poor ol' Luxembourg.

    (http://i.imgur.com/QCFWfNy.png)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 07, 2017, 05:26:21 pm
    Poor ol' Luxembourg.

    (http://i.imgur.com/QCFWfNy.png)

    I don't get this meme, want to clarify a bit?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 07, 2017, 05:48:58 pm
    I don't get this meme, want to clarify a bit?

    The head is, roughly, in the shape of Luxembourg.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 07, 2017, 06:19:58 pm

    I don't get this meme, want to clarify a bit?

    The head is, roughly, in the shape of Luxembourg.

    Yes, i get that, but how is the hospital related to it at all?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Can-ned Food on June 09, 2017, 08:46:48 am
    It is a scene from one of the more surreal David Firth cartoons.

    http://www.fat-pie.com/pulch.htm (http://www.fat-pie.com/pulch.htm) 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2x8i0ewGdM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2x8i0ewGdM)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on June 12, 2017, 01:48:37 am
    What do you mean there? You are in favour of racism in France? And Germany and France should take up their century-long wars again?
    And why revolt against something that most people appreciate?

    I take it you took in all of the mainstream journalism on Le Pen and didn't consider they might be lying.

    I'm in favor of reducing empires to rubble before they are made permanent. I'm in favor of the exact kind of policies necessary to protect citizens over non-citizens. I'm in favor of no European cultures going extinct in the way Macron wishes they have.

    Why revolt? Because your governments are actively working against its citizens. Some of the most amazing contradictions arise from European progressivism.

    "We want diversity!" Yet you believe European cultures do not exist or do not deserve to exist. You kill cultures, you kill diversity. And you're importing cultures which follow a conqueror religion.

    "We need immigration for the economy!" Okay, but here's another, better idea: incentivize your own citizens to marry and procreate. Stop with the anti-sex feminism and celebrate traditional families.

    "We want peace in the Middle East!" But you're just fine with Saudi Arabia. And just fine with taking in millions of refugees* instead of trying to stop the conflicts, or even admitting who the real aggressors are in the conflicts themselves. This even leads back to "needing immigration", which presents some incentive to want conflict and more refugees.
    *(Most are economic migrants.)

    "We tolerate people of all kinds: gay, trans, all races, and religions!" Yet Islam is on the rise, and it's the most intolerant of the mainstream religions. It's like the most backwards version of Christianity on steroids. Condolences to the liberal upper-class Muslims who have reformed their faith, but the vast majority has scholars who actively work against reformation and keep them in the stone-age of religion.

    It's like most people have heard these contradicting lines so many times they've forgotten what a contradiction is and expect it to be mainstream for party policy.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 12, 2017, 02:21:16 pm
    "We want diversity!" Yet you believe European cultures do not exist or do not deserve to exist. You kill cultures, you kill diversity. And you're importing cultures which follow a conqueror religion.
    Do you have the slightest idea what creates culture ? Diversity and exchanges.
    Do you think European cultures are perfect how they are and shouldn't evolve anymore ? That would be very pretentious of you, and I doubt any European artist would agree with you.

    And you're importing cultures which follow a conqueror religion.
    Do you really think Islamic culture has taken a more important part in French culture than American culture has ? Allow me to laugh at you if you say yes...

    "We need immigration for the economy!" Okay, but here's another, better idea: incentivize your own citizens to marry and procreate. Stop with the anti-sex feminism and celebrate traditional families.
    I will marry if I please. And if so, no-one but me will decide whether it's a he, a she, or even a non-binary gendered one. And in case I marry someone I can have children with, we'll be the only ones to decide whether we have some, okay ?
    By the way, your talk about anti-sex feminism would surely make my (feminist) sister and her friends a lot. Well, it makes me laugh too.
    Oh, and if you don't remember : we're about 7.5 billions humans on the planet. I think it's already much more than necessary and we don't need to make more children.

    And just fine with taking in millions of refugees* instead of trying to stop the conflicts
    Well, pardon us not to send our presidents and secretaries of state ten letters a day... Which wouldn't give us any more control about the situation. As for Le Pen, I doubt she'd improve the situation at all.

    "We tolerate people of all kinds: gay, trans, all races, and religions!" Yet Islam is on the rise, and it's the most intolerant of the mainstream religions. It's like the most backwards version of Christianity on steroids. Condolences to the liberal upper-class Muslims who have reformed their faith, but the vast majority has scholars who actively work against reformation and keep them in the stone-age of religion.
    I don't know details about Islam at all, but I think conservatives are mostly the noisiest ones. Oh, and by the way, there are extremely conservative Christians and lay Europeans too, and I wouldn't call your praise of traditional family reformative either...

    It's like most people have heard these contradicting lines so many times they've forgotten what a contradiction is
    Well, it seems you forgot too. ;D
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Mairon on June 12, 2017, 03:25:22 pm
    Lambs to the slaughter.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 12, 2017, 10:54:55 pm
    I take it you took in all of the mainstream journalism on Le Pen and didn't consider they might be lying.

    I'm in favor of reducing empires to rubble before they are made permanent. I'm in favor of the exact kind of policies necessary to protect citizens over non-citizens. I'm in favor of no European cultures going extinct in the way Macron wishes they have.

    Why revolt? Because your governments are actively working against its citizens. Some of the most amazing contradictions arise from European progressivism.

    "We want diversity!" Yet you believe European cultures do not exist or do not deserve to exist. You kill cultures, you kill diversity. And you're importing cultures which follow a conqueror religion.

    "We need immigration for the economy!" Okay, but here's another, better idea: incentivize your own citizens to marry and procreate. Stop with the anti-sex feminism and celebrate traditional families.

    "We want peace in the Middle East!" But you're just fine with Saudi Arabia. And just fine with taking in millions of refugees* instead of trying to stop the conflicts, or even admitting who the real aggressors are in the conflicts themselves. This even leads back to "needing immigration", which presents some incentive to want conflict and more refugees.
    *(Most are economic migrants.)

    "We tolerate people of all kinds: gay, trans, all races, and religions!" Yet Islam is on the rise, and it's the most intolerant of the mainstream religions. It's like the most backwards version of Christianity on steroids. Condolences to the liberal upper-class Muslims who have reformed their faith, but the vast majority has scholars who actively work against reformation and keep them in the stone-age of religion.

    It's like most people have heard these contradicting lines so many times they've forgotten what a contradiction is and expect it to be mainstream for party policy.

    Care to backup any of your claims with reliable sources? Thank you.
    Until then, just one thing about Le Pen: My French is probably even better than my English. I live and work in Luxembourg, and speak French every day at work. So I had on numerous occasions the enormous displeasure to hear or read racist comments from her own mouth in news, internet, youtube. Since you believe that "most [refugees] are economic migrants", it is obvious why you defend her by attacking the media. I trust your French is also very good, if you judge about French media...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on June 13, 2017, 08:48:16 am
    From some point of view, every refugee is an "economic migrant": Because most reasons to flee from their homes (wars, hunger, climate change based natural disasters) were caused by the greedy economy of the leading industrial nations. Sustainability would have kept migration low; but our heaven made their hell, so there is no surprise that they want their share of our cake. We should have shared already before they starve.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on June 13, 2017, 01:41:05 pm
    Ehm... I don't think that's the case with Syria. I'm no expert, but I think the timeline goes something like this:

    Religious/political dispute leads al-Assad to use chemical weapons on his own people. (Dick move)

    People fight back

    Major countries support opposing sides. Sadly, its not a simple good guy vs bad guy situation.

    Supporting the rebels means supporting Isis while supporting Assad is similarly evil. Walking away from the whole mess is not really an option either.

    Shit storm ensues.


    We dont owe these folks anything. Their country was kind of messed up to begin with and based on how they are behaving in europe, I'm willing to bet they were somewhat responsible for assad's initial gas attack.


    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on June 14, 2017, 09:02:45 am
    Good. So there are even less people to blame for seeking shelter.

    Of course, there are always some "opportunists" among the desperate. But claiming that they are the majority is not based on facts.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on June 14, 2017, 01:19:55 pm
    They don't all need to be criminals. You only need a small percentage to bring havoc to an otherwise peaceful and civilized country. Likewise, it only takes a little bit of feces to contaminate a huge supply of drinking water.

    The other problem is with cultural values. Having a lot of people who think it's ok to treat women like dogs is a big problem in countries that view men and women as equals or at least close. In addition to this, consider their values with regard to non-muslims.

    The issue here isn't whether or not crime rates have risen as a result of the refugee invasion or why Germany is not only closing their doors but is now sending tnem back. The issue is how long will civilized people pretend that this is not a real problem. How long will people make excuses for all of this crap? And it's not just germany, nobody wants these folks.

    If the refugee invasion was a good thing, then everyone would be taking them in and encouraging them to stay. Is that what is happening now? Is that why Germany needs to force EU member countries to take their fair share?

    It looks more like the refugee crisis is analogous to a soggy, shit sandwich. One that everyone is obligated to eat.






    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 14, 2017, 03:37:27 pm
    If the refugee invasion was a good thing, then everyone would be taking them in and encouraging them to stay. Is that what is happening now? Is that why Germany needs to force EU member countries to take their fair share?

    It looks more like the refugee crisis is analogous to a soggy, shit sandwich. One that everyone is obligated to eat.
    Your thinking is way too simplistic. First, there are always people to refuse things, even when most others consider it good. Second, there are much more people around here who are willing to welcome refugees than what you seem to think. To take that Germany example most of you take, Pegida aren't the only ones who demonstrate, there are pro-migrants demonstrations too. There are people who teach migrants how to speak German, or French, or whatever language they need to learn to communicate in the country they currently live in, there are even people who welcome migrants in their own houses.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on June 15, 2017, 04:35:11 pm
    Not only the arrival of migrants splits the country, but also the decision about integration vs. deportation. Especially Bavaria is notorious for a lack of common sense. There was recently a riot of students trying to keep the police from deporting a co-ed right out of the lecture. And that's just the extreme case, the number of companies protesting against deportations of trainees expecting a permanent contract is incredibly high already. And where are they deported? To so-declared "safe countries of origin" like Afghanistan, where our minister just even missed an assault during his visit. The government talks about integration but seems to prevent it as much as possible. The few known criminal migrants can't be deported due to various reasons (lack of documents, lack of cooperation in their countries of origin, supposed illness, or their disappearance), so instead some of the most cooperative and best-integrating migrants get deported, as if they have to achieve a quota. You will find several petitions on e.g. change.org.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Mairon on June 18, 2017, 10:19:28 am
    Actually, the plan is really simple. Europe was just too smart to be controlled and policed as hell, so globalists first poisoned Europeans` minds with social marxism in the sixties, and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.
    One should boil the frog gradually, right?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 18, 2017, 11:36:41 am
    Actually, the plan is really simple. Europe was just too smart to be controlled and policed as hell, so globalists first poisoned Europeans` minds with social marxism in the sixties, and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.
    One should boil the frog gradually, right?
    Ahahah ! Magnificent conspiracy theory Mairon. Well, still a conspiracy theory...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on June 20, 2017, 02:48:53 am
    Actually, the plan is really simple. Europe was just too smart to be controlled and policed as hell, so globalists first poisoned Europeans` minds with social marxism in the sixties, and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.
    One should boil the frog gradually, right?

    Marion has a point, but I think it was more likely to be a series of unfortunate events.

    You guys in Europe will be kicking yourselves in the ass 30 to 50 years from now when you realize what an irreversible mistake it was to let the refugees invade. Better to drive them out now before people start getting attached to them.

    In the US, we have something called an anchor baby. That's when an illegal immigrant deliberately gets knock up by a local or vice versa. If the baby is born on US soil, the baby becomes a US citizen and I believe the illegal does too. It's a way to cheat the system.

    I'm sure you guys aren't seeing a rash of pregnancies and weddings over there, right?





    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on June 20, 2017, 09:26:31 am
    and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.

    I really hope you were just expressing yourself poorly there.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 20, 2017, 11:28:55 am
    You guys in Europe will be kicking yourselves in the ass 30 to 50 years from now when you realize what an irreversible mistake it was to let the refugees invade.
    Please keep your xenophobic hasty assumptions for yourself, alright ?
    You're doing precisely what I can't stand at all : telling others what to do because of your own fears/hatred.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: netforce10 on June 20, 2017, 01:19:30 pm
    Aeghiss, If one fears something should they not try to prevent that which they fear? I would also like to point out you are doing exactly what you yourself hate, You tell someone to shut up just because you hate what he is doing. (I hope you don't consider that as offensively)

    In reality, this is all we have effort for on the forums it seems, ungrounded shouting from both sides. Telling them they are not right and that their reasons are wrong because I don't agree with them. In short, all anyone is doing seems to be shouting at the opposition how you are right because of course you are and the other side is wrong.

    That's often simply the nature of these things, ofcourse it's good to discuss topics with a political nature, as otherwise you might very well become an echo chamber, but I don't belief this forum is suited for anything productive on this particular topic at this time.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on June 20, 2017, 02:53:40 pm
    Guys guys, what the **** this topic turned into again?

    and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.

    I really hope you were just expressing yourself poorly there.

    First hand experiences maybe? xD
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 20, 2017, 04:26:01 pm
    (http://i.imgur.com/WTDnnwE.gif)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on June 20, 2017, 04:44:16 pm
    Quote from: Rigwyn 5tlink=topic=42841.msg482760#msg482760 date=1497919733
    You guys in Europe will be kicking yourselves in the ass 30 to 50 years from now when you realize what an irreversible mistake it was to let the refugees invade.
    Please keep your xenophobic hasty assumptions for yourself, alright ?
    You're doing precisely what I can't stand at all : telling others what to do because of your own fears/hatred.

    Fear and anger are very human responses. I won't deny having them as without them, I would be less than human.

    Let me ask. If someone tried to bash in your door and raid your house in the middle of the night, would you feel excited, afraid or angry, or would you just sit there on your moral high-horse and claim to be above anger and fear while those invaders stripped you of your belongings and did terrible things to those whom you live with?

    Is it really better to be untainted by anger and fear or is it better to allow a measured degree of anger and fear to influence your actions and decisions?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: MishkaL1138 on June 22, 2017, 03:20:57 am
    Sorry to deviate from my usual whining stance about this thread, but I gotta say that the majority of this people, or at least the vocal one:

    - Won't learn or follow, and some even won't respect the traditions present in the countries they take refuge in
    - Most of them won't even bother learning the language, even if there are free programs for it
    - They expect everyone to respect them, and then don't respect back
    - Some of them have claimed to be going to reclaim Europe, by means of some sort of holy war or yihad
    - They get preference for schools and some job positions
    - Of those who get government aids, most of them just don't do squat, and just sit at home watching TV or whatever

    It's just a list that could go on and on. But I've seen it happen, and I don't like it. I'm all for taking them in - as long as they're mindful. Stop pretending you're higher on the moral ladder and start accepting your reality.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on June 22, 2017, 08:41:19 am
    Generalizations are in general wrong... ;) — Means: Whenever I read about "most/all of them", I wonder about the source of this statement.

    One of the reasons for hate against "those migrants in general" is the false assumption that the government would spend their (based on human rights just vital) support in the wealth of the citizen if they did not exist. But not the migrants are the reason that the citizen feel treated badly. The government decided how to share the wealth. Also the government made laws to keep migrants from working even if they want (so it's strange how they are blamed for "stealing your jobs" and "being lazy" at the same time), and decided to deport the best integrated and most diligent, the "role models of a good immigrant".

    Just this week I listened to a talk in news TV about the relation between media and migration. Once again was explained that the major mainstream media usually emphasize the exceptions from the common social behaviour, which focuses your attention on these exceptions and hides the majority from your awareness. Why report about >90% of the nice and boring people who just live the life you expect them to? You wouldn't pay attention to that. So 'you' wouldn't pay for this report (meaning e.g. ad sellers here, whatever pays for "journalism"). Scandals bring profit, thus appear in the news. This way, the abnormal appears like the normal to you. Maybe you remember the ironic rhetoric question how it comes that every day happens just as much as it takes to fill a newspaper...
    __

    Back to honesty: Promises, promises ... you said you would come back to us on that! (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/06/21/the-55-things-the-white-house-has-promised-to-get-back-to-us-on/)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 22, 2017, 09:38:13 am
    Aeghiss, If one fears something should they not try to prevent that which they fear?
    You know the Aesculapian snake ? It's a species which doesn't bite. Now imagine I got a phone call from someone living at the other side of the town who tells me "Look ! I've seen a snake in your garden with my binoculars ! Kill it ! It's gonna bite !" There's no way I kill the Aesculapian snake because of the call.
    That's the same with Rigwyn. We Europeans have no reason to ban refugees because of Americans' fears.

    Let me ask. If someone tried to bash in your door and raid your house in the middle of the night, would you feel excited, afraid or angry, or would you just sit there on your moral high-horse and claim to be above anger and fear while those invaders stripped you of your belongings and did terrible things to those whom you live with?
    In northern countries (Finland, Suede, Norway, Canada), there are people who just don't lock their doors at all - much more than you'd expect - and there aren't more burglaries than in ours. Historical reasons for this are that in case someone gets lost in the winter, they'd better not have to wait for people to hear and react to them knocking on the door.
    The point is : in case you hadn't noticed, there's a difference between someone asking you to give them refuge, and a criminal - whatever the scale.

    @LigH : :thumbup:
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: netforce10 on June 22, 2017, 12:14:48 pm
    We should not kill necessarily kill the snake but he should still have called to warn you about it. And you should not shout at him that he is Ophidiophobic(phobic for snakes) and shout that he should just keep his fears and hatred for snakes to himself. He does perhaps not see an Aesculapian snake but a very venomous one, now you can both keep shouting to eachother what you think it is or grab a book of snakes and their characteristics and start looking at what it is actually or be pleasant about it and thank them for the warning but say you think it is not something to be concerned about and hang up.

    Personally my opinion on the refugees is that first and foremost, not all of them are horrible and not all of them are good and honest but I have no real clue about which tint of grey it as a whole is and second, I would rather not have them here, I rather would have in their own country where they wouldn't have to flee from. But what needs be needs be and I think that to a certain extent we should provide atleast some safety to those who are "real" refugees("real" explanation: those not trying to improve their quality of life while able to live a decent live where they are)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on June 22, 2017, 04:23:47 pm
    Regarding Aeghiss' point about leaving doors unlocked, you can do that in areas where people respect each other. In areas that are culturally different, where people don't respect each other, you would be robbed blind and possibly harmed if you did that.

    It's big mistake to assume that everyone else is as respectful and honest as you are. The ugly truth is that such cultural norms vary.

    Example:

    Where I live, if you rob people, treat women like dogs, and sodomize kids, then you are a horrible person. In Afghanistan, such behavior is considered normal. Does this make people from Afghanistan horrible people? Yes, those of them who act like that are, but if you say that, people will freak out and call you an islamapbobic, xenophobic racist.

    It seems that a lot of people are so hung up on being "politically correct" that they will white wash the ugly truth with pleasant lies rather than just acknowledging it.






    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on June 22, 2017, 10:53:21 pm
    Personally my opinion on the refugees is that first and foremost, not all of them are horrible and not all of them are good and honest
    Quite true... Like every human group.

    But what needs be needs be and I think that to a certain extent we should provide atleast some safety to those who are "real" refugees("real" explanation: those not trying to improve their quality of life while able to live a decent live where they are)
    Actually, people who don't need to flee their countries and still move on usually are among these able to immigrate legally - which means the point about whether to welcome them doesn't make sense.

    Regarding Aeghiss' point about leaving doors unlocked, you can do that in areas where people respect each other. In areas that are culturally different, where people don't respect each other, you would be robbed blind and possibly harmed if you did that.

    It's big mistake to assume that everyone else is as respectful and honest as you are. The ugly truth is that such cultural norms vary.
    Don't assume I see life through rose-tinted glasses. I know people aren't all good, and I've even learnt that more quickly than usual European kids. Yet I'll let you think about it : what do you think is best living in : a country where one can leave their door open without risk, or one where they cannot ? The answer is pretty obvious. And then : how do you think our way of being can become more trusting ?
    Also, don't think there are burglars on every corner. Little true fact here : my family and I once came back from holidays and realised we had left the key right on the door... Two weeks ago. Nothing had happened meanwhile. And even though I don't live in Paris, I still live in France. Not in Suede or Canada.

    Where I live, if you rob people, treat women like dogs, and sodomize kids, then you are a horrible person. In Afghanistan, such behavior is considered normal. Does this make people from Afghanistan horrible people? Yes, those of them who act like that are, but if you say that, people will freak out and call you an islamapbobic, xenophobic racist.
    Conservative African and Middle-East countries usually are macho, and many consider raping a 14-years-old girls the same as raping a 18-years-old one indeed... Which they don't give a damn about anyway. I state loud and clear that it's unbearable, and I defy anyone to call me a racist because of it.
    Still do you really think kicking refugees is the way we can fight conservatism and machismo ? Not every refugee is macho or conservative, and doubt that the most conservative and macho of all are the ones who flee their homes. Besides, Western countries are far from perfect about it either.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on July 27, 2017, 10:04:36 pm
    First off, we don't hate Trump because he "speaks his mind."  We hate him because he is a bumbling, megalomaniac xenophobe who has absolutely no idea how to run a country.

    How many of the other candidates have experience running the country?
    Zip.
    This is a new experience for any candidate unless they are being re-elected, and with it comes a sharp learning curve.

    Quote
      He thinks all Mexicans are criminals and rapists and all Muslims are terrorists.

    That is not what he's said and is not accurate. Replace the "all" with "some" and you'll be a bit closer.  As for what he thinks, it's not knowable and not really relevant.

    Quote
      His most concrete plans involve building walls, doing "something" about Muslims, and replacing Obamacare with "IDK something better."

    What's interesting about this point is that when candidates spout off about specific plans, they typically don't carry through once elected. I suspect it's because they are not privy to the whole story until they are in. ( That or they are just spouting bullshit ). Given this, I'm fine with a rough idea and some history of competence in an executive position.

    Quote
    Trump can't even maintain diplomatic relations with Fox News, who is universally recognized to have a huge bias toward his own side of the aisle.  Can you imagine him at peace talks between Palestine and Israel?  Things would blow up.  More than they already do, I mean.

    You have a point there , but I don't think FOX news was interested in supporting him specifically. Remember, he's hitting for the Republicans but he's not bound by them like Cruz and Rubio ( who would be completely helpless without their money ). When a candidate is entirely dependent on their sponsor's money, they are their bitch ( or puppet ). Trump is neither - like Romney( who I despised for reasons not relevant to this topic ) he has his own money and/or means of raising it.

    Quote
    As far as Socialism goes...that whole thing about the safety net (Welfare, Unemployment, etc) is complete hogwash.  It's often spouted by conservatives in favor of "trickle-down economics," which has been failing to work since at least the Nixon era.  People aren't fundamentally lazy--sure maybe a few of them are.

    There are entire communities where people make a lifestyle out of living off of welfare and food stamps. Some kids grow up thinking that "EBT" cards are the same as "DEBIT" cards. ( They are plastic cards that are used to distribute money to poor people electronically - not the same as a card that gives you access to money you have earned. ) I would cite some references, but I really don't want people accusing me of being racist or anti-religious or anti-semetic or whatever. It's a sticky topic. If you want to know more about it, google it.

    Quote
    But you'll notice the evidence for this is always anecdotal.  When arguing politics with a conservative friend after a few too many G&T's he will inevitably mention his uncle's friend's cousin's wife's roommate who lives in a shack and doesn't work so that he can get welfare.  I'm not saying that these people don't exist, but they are a statistically negligent minority.

    Let's see... Bronx, Harlem, Kiryas Joel to name a few. We're not talking about some lazy college kid who found a way to beat the system. ( Not all people in these areas are on welfare, but many are. ) This is not anecdotal. Here's some details of the percentage of folks who are getting food stamps etc...  ( Mind you, these food stamps are paid for by people with jobs - many of which are struggling to feed their own families )
    http://frac.org/pdf/ny_times_snap_poverty_formatted.pdf

    Quote
    Most people who use the safety net want desperately to get off of it. 

    I applaud those who are caught by the net, get up and recover. That's one example of proper use. For those who are genuinely disabled or who need a hand temporarily, they too are using this resource as intended.

    Quote
    Think also about how a wider safety net would likely increase innovation.  For instance, I would love to quit my current job and start a business, but I'm afraid of what will happen if my business fails and I can't pay my rent.

    I don't think giving out more money is going to breed incentive. Rewarded behavior tends to repeat. Giving money is essentially giving a reward.

    As for starting your own business, I would love to work for myself too, but similarly, I don't know how I would transition from from my job to self employment  AND ensure that I make the same amount of money and benefits or more. I don't think welfare is going to help with that. For that, you probably need to take some business classes or seek a mentor.

    I apologize for not apologizing sooner.  Sarras, you implied an idiocy on my part that I think you should know is not there, so I felt no need to respond.  Rigwyn, nothing you posted was a sensible argument against what Trump had himself said in the debates and through other media outlets.  Like, you can't ask me to prove something he's already readily admitted to.  So it didn't seem worth my time to help you diagnose your logic.

    What he has done since he has taken office again proves me right.  As if there weren't a mound of evidence already, now there's this:

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/opinion/donald-trump-scouts-tradition.html?mwrsm=Facebook&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com

    Oh well man at least we didn't get stuck with a woman who (legally) deleted (private) emails, right?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on July 28, 2017, 01:03:56 am
    Sarras, you implied an idiocy on my part that I think you should know is not there, so I felt no need to respond.

    I have no idea what you are responding to. The quote in your post is of someone else's words, not mine.

    Haven't even bothered to post in this thread because my time has been taken up with more worthwhile activities. But I'll probably return to this with a compendium of videos and research showing that Europe is basically allowing itself to be invaded in the same way it was almost a thousand years ago, except this time the battles are being fought as individuals vs a whole culture, and so Europe will inevitably lose unless it returns to national and liberal values.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on July 28, 2017, 08:01:20 pm
    I have no idea what you are responding to. The quote in your post is of someone else's words, not mine.

    I didn't quote it because your argument wasn't worth dissecting.  You called my fears and cries of fascism concerns of an immature person who did not understand what the word means, against a literal plethora of evidence which only continues to grow.  Hence the cited article.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Damola on July 28, 2017, 10:30:55 pm
    Okay, I just realized how long this thread is and I responded to something on the first page. I am overwhelmed and I think I won´t read the rest of the thread… so take this for my opinion and I am out of this again.

    Rubio is too green.

    How can someone be "too green" in a world that gets destroyed a bit more every day?

    Seconded. And… from what I gather over here in Germany: Many, many people are fed up of the unlimited neo-liberalism and corporate influence that seem to drive so many important political decisions. Politicians, not only the US, also here in Germany consistently and I think in full consciousness bring up a ton of decisions that directly violate our constitutions. More surveillance, more power to big companies, more destruction of our all environment, more and more trade agreements that reduce environmental standards by mostly only serving big corporations that do not think a day more into the future than their greediness for lots and lots of $$$ can see and more and more outright violation of the basic human rights that form the base of each democracy.

    What gives me hope tough: More and more people stand up against it and remind politicians of their mission. Here in Germany… and in the US where quite some people as to what I read work on finding ways to impeach Donald Trump. I think thats something that would be good to do with Angela Merkel as well, but unlike Trump, she at least does not own a huge company that she directly benefits with her political decisions.

    What is needed is a global shift. And its starting already. I see what we see here is the end of capitalism as we know it. It just happens to be after the end of what people called communism (but wasn´t).

    So I for my case diligently direct the money and energy I have into initiative that are about to create sustainability, recently becoming a member of the first and only public bank I know of that does not ask for interests for authorized overdraft limits anymore starting to break out of the interest madness that for pure mathematical reasons can not work indefinitely. And support charities and petitions which aim for manifesting change.

    So or so… nothing of this directly has to do anything with PlaneShift.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on July 29, 2017, 05:25:40 am
    You called my fears and cries of fascism concerns of an immature person who did not understand what the word means, against a literal plethora of evidence which only continues to grow.

    You really should quote it if you're going to refer to something that's pages back.

    And, no offense, it really does sound like you have no idea what fascism is. I don't need to make an argument that you don't know what it is. The fact that you are claiming something that's clearly not fascism to be fascism is enough to reveal your ignorance. You probably can't even define it without looking it up. You're probably not even aware of the fascist parties that have existed in countries that have never had fascist leaders. You probably can't even explain how fascist states come to be.

    I can't express in English just how ignorant what you're saying is.

    I see what we see here is the end of capitalism as we know it. It just happens to be after the end of what people called communism (but wasn´t).

    What do you mean by this? If capitalism were to end, it would be because resource, labor, and product had all lost value. Which is likely only possible in a post-scarcity world in which a pea has just as much value as a private jet.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Mairon on July 29, 2017, 04:52:04 pm
    Actually, defining fascism in economical terms is pretty simple - it`s socializing the cost while privatizing the profit. Also, if you look at the fasces symbol it can be easily understood that the axe (the authority) is holding the rods (the people) together by force.
    That`s where it`s all coming - to a global(ist) fascist-communist dictatorship and martial law all over the world.
    And to all the cucks out there - if you want to be outbred, go for it, but don`t disturb others.

    P.S. From Eastern Europe with love.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on July 31, 2017, 09:06:10 am
    Politicians, not only the US, also here in Germany consistently and I think in full consciousness bring up a ton of decisions that directly violate our constitutions.

    Quote from: Prodigy
    What we're dealing with here is a total lack of respect for the law.

    From the government. My ass. If the law limits their greed for power, they change the law. Welcome to the "banana republic".

    And what shall we say about "Mister Deluge"?

    Quote from: Queen
    Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango?

    Devil may care, let's wipe out the PR staff and start over. What is diplomacy, again?!
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on July 31, 2017, 05:38:30 pm
    I apologize for not apologizing sooner.  Sarras, you implied an idiocy on my part that I think you should know is not there, so I felt no need to respond.
    Sadly, there has been no evidence of intelligence on your part in this discussion thus far, so the implied idiocy holds some weight.

    Quote
    Rigwyn, nothing you posted was a sensible argument against what Trump had himself said in the debates and through other media outlets. 
    You might want to trace the discussion back a few links. I think you've lost track of what we were discussing.

    Quote
    Like, you can't ask me to prove something he's already readily admitted to.
    I... never asked you to do that. >.>

    Quote
    So it didn't seem worth my time to help you diagnose your logic.
    LOL. That's quite Ok. I have my logic all figured out.  I've made a point to discuss my points of view clearly and articulately. I think I've been fair and balanced giving credit where credit is due. You on the other hand, are being lazy by trying to just hand-wave this away. Shame on you.

    Quote
    What he has done since he has taken office again proves me right.  As if there weren't a mound of evidence already, now there's this:

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/opinion/donald-trump-scouts-tradition.html?mwrsm=Facebook&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com

    And now you try to back up your opinion with an OP-ED piece from a media source that is adversarial towards Trump. 

    Quote
    Oh well man at least we didn't get stuck with a woman who (legally) deleted (private) emails, right?

    Maybe you could back up Hillary's innocence with an opinion piece written by the DNC and published in a pro-Democrat periodical.
     
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 01, 2017, 12:14:16 am
    OK, Scaramucci is done. Next victim for the hot seat, please?!
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on August 01, 2017, 07:23:37 am
    Quote
    Rigwyn, nothing you posted was a sensible argument against what Trump had himself said in the debates and through other media outlets.
    You might want to trace the discussion back a few links. I think you've lost track of what we were discussing. 

    Literally every claim I made was directly supported by Trump himself during the debates.  I'm not gonna go back and re-watch hours and hours of video to find where he made statements that are now so public knowledge that your average fourth-grader is aware of them.  Every "logical" statement you made has been DIRECTLY contradicted by Trump or his administration.  At the time of my original postings here these should have been extremely fresh in your mind because he had just said them.  Like literally just said how he believed in stop 'n frisk for instance or some terrible things about varying groups of people.  This is all stuff he has repeatedly stated publicly so there is zero question as to its authenticity.  I figured out pretty quick that Trumpers don't actually CARE about facts so I feel no need to now posthumously hunt things down.  Again, hours and hours of tape i'd have to sift through to find things that were extremely public knowledge.  I'm not gonna spend nine hours leading a horse when he's not gonna drink the damned water anyway.

    Quote
    LOL. That's quite Ok. I have my logic all figured out.  I've made a point to discuss my points of view clearly and articulately. I think I've been fair and balanced giving credit where credit is due. You on the other hand, are being lazy by trying to just hand-wave this away. Shame on you.

    No shame on YOU.  See above.  Primary sources.  You go back and watch those debates, read all those pre-election papers if you want.  Most of the things he's doing now were campaign promises, and most of them are gonna be found unconstitutional real fast, like most of the things he's tried to implement.  I admit I'm not that sure what your logic is--it mostly seems to be arguing against things i've said (again despite a mountain of evidence supporting my point publicly available).  It's like you WANT me to dig up old articles and debate clips so i can be like SEE THERE!  But this is busywork--again this stuff is common knowledge.  Meanwhile transgendered folks are banned from the US military and you're like oh the source you cited is biased!  Okay maybe.  Are you claiming he DIDN'T ban those folks from the military?  Are you going to argue that this is somehow acceptable?

    Are you claiming he didn't gut the EPA and put a climate-change denier in charge?
    Are you claiming he didn't put Betsy Devos, who is anti public education, in charge of public education?
    Are you claiming he didn't once say that Mexico wasn't sending us their best people but their "rapists" and "drug dealers" and "maybe some good people too," implying that most Mexican Americans fall into one of the first two?
    Are you claiming that one of his goals is not to get stop n frisk nationally implemented, where stop-n-frisk clearly constitutes illegal search and seizure?
    Are you claiming he hasn't threatened the press for speaking out against him?
    Are you claiming that his chief strategist is not a known anti-semite?

    These are all moves that dictators make, that fascists make.  Let's start here.  Tell me what you doubt and maybe I'll find a source for you.  One. Source.  To start with.

    To summarize: the reason I haven't cited sources is because all of the things I were arguing were easily verified by things Trump had himself said.  It's like asking me to prove that the Great Wall of China exists; sure I could probably track you down some legitimate articles on its construction and preservation, but you know damned well it's there.  You're wasting my time.  This only blocks further progress and discussion and I don't appreciate it.  Hence, no, shame on you, for using slimy logistic tactics when you know damned well yours is the wrong side of the argument.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on August 01, 2017, 09:43:31 am
    Like literally just said how he believed in stop 'n frisk for instance or some terrible things about varying groups of people.  This is all stuff he has repeatedly stated publicly so there is zero question as to its authenticity.

    No shame on YOU.

    [...]

    Meanwhile transgendered folks are banned from the US military and you're like oh the source you cited is biased! 

    [...]

    Are you claiming that his chief strategist is not a known anti-semite?

    [...]

    These are all moves that dictators make, that fascists make.

    LOL

    I really don't get why you people can't just open a history book or even a dictionary. You twist completely innocent statements into "xenophobia" or "transphobia" or whateverphobia as if borders and reasonable discrimination are not legitimate things. Read your constitution. Learn about how the military chooses recruits. Stop parroting your talking points and ruining political discussions with your uninformed emotions.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 01, 2017, 11:27:18 am
    Reasonable discrimination ... legitimate? ??? Would you enjoy being "legitimately discriminated" (whatever that means, and whoever justified the rules about that) if you were the victim?

    History books ... like, Germany 1933?

    And, regarding borders:

    (http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/15/0715/0703/tyson.jpg)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 01, 2017, 02:10:37 pm

    Literally every claim I made was directly supported by Trump himself during the debates.

    We cite our quotes so that others may refer to those sources directly and see what the author of those statements said themselves. When quote someone or claim that someone said something, you should either cite the quote at time of writing or upon request or else retract your statement.. Yes, it's work.
    Quote
    Like literally just said how he believed in stop 'n frisk for instance or some terrible things about varying groups of people.

     I don't agree with stop and frisk in all cases.. I see this as something that should be imposed where needed.. Also, I'm ok with him taking positions that I don't necessarily agree with. Those positions will be challenged and may manifest or a different position may be negotiated. The travel ban is a good example of this. He took an initial position, it was challenged, and as a result, we ended up with a compromise.


     
    Quote
    I figured out pretty quick that Trumpers don't actually CARE about facts so I feel no need to now posthumously hunt things down. 

    No need for facts when we can just stereotype and generalize. Is that what you are saying? If it's ok for you to do it, then is it ok for everyone else to do it too?

    Quote
    Meanwhile transgendered folks are banned from the US military and you're like oh the source you cited is biased!  Okay maybe.
    It was pretty biased..

    As for transgenders in the military, I don't really care. If they want to join they need to own up to what their physical genitalia says they are.. If they can't overcome that tiny obstscle, then they are probably not a good choice for military work. The military is not the Hilton.. Nobody caters to you there.

    Regarding the epa and devos, I didn't follow this closely so I'll refrain from commenting for now. I know all about the opinions that are flying around, but not so much the actual facts.




    I'm out of time right now.. Will reply later when I have more time.

    Quote
    Are you claiming he hasn't threatened the press for speaking out against him?

    The press caters mostly to democrats. They're just being loyal to those who pay them. That's business. This is also why stations like cnn, msnbc, nytimes and the Huffington Post give good coverage to Democrats and bad coverage to republicans. Fox news is one of the very few news outlets that caters to republicans. Fox news is just as corrupt as all the other media outlets. If the news media press is siding with trump's opposition, then why shouldnt he fight back?

    Also, when the Democratic national committie is giving loads of money to cnn and msnbc in the form of advertising dollars, who are cnn and msnbc going to favor? Do you think they will bias their news in favor of their sponsors? Yes, this is how business works. Do you really think they care more about providing accurate political news than gaining money from their political allies? For the answer, look at what they are doing.

    Stevie Bannon - if he's a known anti semite, then it should be pretty easy for you to back up your claim.. He's alt right, but that's not the same thing as antisemitism.

    By the way, calling someone an antisemite or racist without proof is called smearing someone, or defamation of character in certain cases. This is a very dishonest thing to do.



    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 01, 2017, 02:19:49 pm
    Reasonable discrimination ... legitimate? ???

    Would you enjoy being "legitimately discriminated" (whatever that means, and whoever justified the rules about that) if you were the victim?

    No, but that's not how winning works.

    Quote
    And, regarding borders:

    (http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/15/0715/0703/tyson.jpg)

    L0L
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 01, 2017, 04:39:00 pm
    Journalists shall research and investigate (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html) ... just in case anyone still cares about facts.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on August 01, 2017, 07:13:44 pm
    Riggy:  Your arguments are clearly designed to elicit an emotional  response.  You constantly demand sources without providing any yourself.  You gloss over things like banning transgender folks from the military as "how the military recruits."  You say that Stop and Frisk would be " Okay, where needed."  EG where there is more crime as in lower income communities which TEND not to be white.  Trump knows this very well.  My arguments are fact-based while yours mostly involve (intentionally?) mis-reading what I've written, or missing the point, and trying to send me on wild goose chases proving the existence of the Great Wall.  Yes, you get me worked up and then I can't logic very well, as seems to be your intent.  But you're not logicing well either--your claims on the effects of welfare, for instance, have been disproven time and time again.  Yet still you spout off some mumbo about how you THINK it works.  I have studied this extensively in my teacher education and you're wrong.  I'm not going to track down evidence on it for you to spout off some junk about how my source is presenting "alternative facts" or whatever.  See why i'm reluctant to engage?  Maybe it's laziness.  Maybe I'd be more inclined to do more work if it weren't a moot point now.  Or maybe I'm tired of you intentionally misunderstanding things.

    Sarras:  You...people? Who exactly are you lumping me in with?  I've read lots of history books and I know our country's history of atrocity against those who are different.  I'm curious as to what you would consider "reasonable" discrimination?

    I'm emotional because you and riggy are too busy insulting me to present good logical constructions.  Yes, this makes me emotional.  I'm human.  But how dare you call me uniformed, or insinuate that my emotions are clouding my logic?  AGAIN EVERYTHING I'M SAYING IS TAKING TRUMP'S WORDS AT FACE VALUE.*

    *okay most things.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on August 02, 2017, 03:01:29 am
    I'm curious as to what you would consider "reasonable" discrimination?

    Reasonable discrimination ... legitimate? ??? Would you enjoy being "legitimately discriminated" (whatever that means, and whoever justified the rules about that) if you were the victim?

    Prime examples of what I'm talking about. Many of you haven't studied US laws, the Constitution, or even your own laws. Every adult should learn the laws of their land.

    Discrimination is not inherently a bad thing. Everyone discriminates every moment of their waking day just to function. When it comes to law, discrimination involves individuals and groups. Discrimination may either be lawful or unlawful.

    Refusing to grant a driver's license to an individual is considered reasonable when that individual cannot safely navigate streets in a vehicle. For example, we do not allow blind people to drive cars on public roads.

    The military is even stricter when it comes to recruiting people. Instead of going on a case by case basis (excluding when waivers are applicable), the United States military focuses on statistics in order to waste the least amount of resources on candidates which are likely to not improve the military's fighting capabilities. Blind people are immediately rejected. People with lazy eyes are rejected. People on antidepressants or who have been on antidepressants to treat mental disorder are rejected. People who have had mental illness are rejected. People who were diagnosed with ADHD are rejected.

    Basically, if you match the statistic of someone who would require medical attention prior to serving, is statistically more likely to commit suicide, is more likely to not be able to serve for a period of time due to medical issues, or will be more likely than the average recruit to drop out, you're not worth our military's time. Trans people are a huge risk to take in because, if it's someone who intends to transition while in the military, they will be unable to serve at full capacity for at least one of the four years people normally sign on for. Secondly, but very importantly, they have many times the rate of committing suicide than an average person. Thirdly, there is a large statistical proportion of trans people who have mental illness, much greater than the non-trans population.

    Europe's militaries are not even comparable to the US military. The militaries that belong to EU countries are by far much weaker.

    You don't have a right to serve in the military. It doesn't exist to make people feel good about themselves. It exists solely to protect the nation. It is probably the most collectivistic part of American culture. The individual is not important in the military. If I had any say in it, I'd bar trans people from entering the military, and I'd force parity in standards between men and women to weed out the weak. The military is the one place individualism does not belong.

    I'm emotional because you and riggy are too busy insulting me to present good logical constructions.

    It's impossible to do so when your claims are not based on logic. All we can do is point out how absurd your statements are.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 02, 2017, 03:37:37 am
    Is this passive aggressive trolling Ralas? Or maybe you're just not interested in forum debates?

    As for me and Sarras calling you out on bs? That's not planned or anything, it's just how forum debates flow. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything. It's just frustrating... I want to understand the logic behind your point of view, but you're hiding it.

    Oh well...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on August 02, 2017, 05:49:15 am
    Just tired of you guys not actually taking the time to read what i'm posting, or responding with non-sequiturs and red herrings (relative to the things I'm saying, I mean.)  And then you insult my logical prowess?  Demand sources without providing any of your own?  (Again when my claims are primarily word-for-word only what Trump himself has stated).  I'm done.

    Quote
    It's impossible to do so when your claims are not based on logic. All we can do is point out how absurd your statements are.

    But you're not, that's the thing.  You're going off on tangents about the dictionary definition of "discrimination" when you know damned well it takes on a loaded meaning in this context.  You're saying stuff that has little to nothing to do with the things I've said.  And I'm done.

    I'm done.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 02, 2017, 08:42:37 am
    Discrimination means rejecting a person regardless of their physical or mental ability to fulfill a task, but for reason unrelated to their task.

    There are tasks which require an aptitude test to avoid the risk of a desaster caused by incompetence or inability to fulfill it. Driving a car in public traffic belongs to this category. Denying a drivers license to a person who is mentally unable to grasp the traffic rules, or physically unable to handle a car safely, is not discrimination, but protection of public safety. Denying a drivers license to women only due to their gender is discrimination, because it doesn't respect an individual ability of handling a car safely.

    A pity that governing a state does not belong to this category, obviously ...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on August 02, 2017, 09:58:20 am
    You're going off on tangents about the dictionary definition of "discrimination" when you know damned well it takes on a loaded meaning in this context.

    If you think it takes on a loaded meaning, you know absolutely nothing about your own laws. Being fired for having a tattoo is called legal discrimination. Illegal discrimination occurs when an individual is fired due to belonging to a protected class, such as for being a specific sex or race. It can even be legal to discriminate against an individual for being a member of a protected class if not doing so would harm the business.

    Denying a drivers license to a person who is mentally unable to grasp the traffic rules, or physically unable to handle a car safely, is not discrimination, but protection of public safety.

    So what word would you use to describe the process of denying a certain category of people from driving but allowing people who are not in that category (and don't fall into any other disallowed categories)?

    In the United States, it's called reasonable or legal discrimination. People under the age of 18 are denied the right to vote. That is legal discrimination. There is a distinction between legal and illegal discrimination. Denying women the right to vote has been considered illegal discrimination for a long time. Whether or not discrimination is reasonable can affect the legality of that discrimination, but reasonable discrimination is not the same as legal discrimination.

    https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm

    Quote
    Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin.

    Certain kinds of discrimination must be outlawed in order for them to be considered illegal. This has been amended in order to outlaw other kinds of discrimination. Even if discrimination is not illegal, it is still considered discrimination.

    Even provinces in Canada recognize this: https://www.albertahumanrights.ab.ca/publications/bulletins_sheets_booklets/bulletins/Pages/when_is_discrim_body.aspx#Reasonable%20and%20justifiable%20discrimination
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 02, 2017, 11:28:39 am
    And what shall we say about "Mister Deluge"?

    Quote from: Queen
    Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango?

    ;D Told you so:

    Scaramucci fired after failing to do the fandango (http://newsthump.com/2017/07/31/scaramucci-fired-after-failing-to-do-the-fandango/)

    Quote
    “This is real life, not fantasy,” we were told. “Anthony can’t escape from reality, and the reality is the Trump administration wants someone who can carry on as if nothing really matters.

    Sounds a bit Bohemian to me.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on August 02, 2017, 11:41:34 am
    Journalists shall research and investigate (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html) ... just in case anyone still cares about facts.

    While the discussion is raving on, nobody - especially not the pro-Trumps - bothers to comment this extremely interesting link. Thank you, LigH!
    Guys, of course you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else.
    But please stop ignoring the facts (i.e. what Trump said himself).
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on August 02, 2017, 12:11:47 pm
    Journalists shall research and investigate (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html) ... just in case anyone still cares about facts.

    While the discussion is raving on, nobody - especially not the pro-Trumps - bothers to comment this extremely interesting link. Thank you, LigH!
    Guys, of course you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else.
    But please stop ignoring the facts (i.e. what Trump said himself).

    I actually pinned it to keep it close to hand.

    PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on August 02, 2017, 12:43:58 pm
    Journalists shall research and investigate (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html) ... just in case anyone still cares about facts.

    While the discussion is raving on, nobody - especially not the pro-Trumps - bothers to comment this extremely interesting link. Thank you, LigH!
    Guys, of course you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else.
    But please stop ignoring the facts (i.e. what Trump said himself).

    I actually pinned it to keep it close to hand.

    PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.

    i actually laughed from reading this comment. srly that is not convincing
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 02, 2017, 12:48:50 pm
    No worries, I'm done with this debate too. Sadly, it went tits up.

    As for that laundry list, yeah, Trump says a lot of stuff that is inaccurate or made up. I've cringed many times listening to him.

    I don't agree with everything Trump says or stands for.


    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 02, 2017, 04:30:48 pm
    P.S.: Stephen Colbert sings (https://youtu.be/vr_o1y47icc?t=6m15s)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Izzabella on August 02, 2017, 04:54:01 pm
    /me sneaks into the topic (mission impossible style) and just leaves this here...

    Love one another (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM4cUP_jMic)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 02, 2017, 05:22:57 pm
    :( This video is not available. (To Germans only?)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 02, 2017, 05:33:13 pm

    LigH you've been discriminated against!





    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Dilihin on August 02, 2017, 06:27:09 pm
    :( This video is not available. (To Germans only?)
    Same here, i want to see the vid :(

    isn't quite many videos restricted in germany tho?That's what i have heard.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 02, 2017, 06:36:07 pm
    It's just a music video by Cher (Love one another). It's probably blocked due to advertising / DRM limitations. There's nothing bad about the video. try this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC-i7WL-Q-A





    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Izzabella on August 02, 2017, 07:09:14 pm
    Grr curse you youtube for messing up my joke!

    Thanks Rigwyn for the other link.

    /me sulks away back into the shadows.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on August 03, 2017, 10:55:46 am
    Well, the times of the "official war" between Google and GEMA are over; payment details are confident. For several weeks already, Germans don't need any more (partially privacy-fraudulent) proxy plugins. So this was a very specific "oops" case.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on August 03, 2017, 01:22:24 pm
    As for that laundry list, yeah, Trump says a lot of stuff that is inaccurate or made up. I've cringed many times listening to him.

    Inaccurate is not the right word, it sounds much too harmless for someone in Trump's position. He is either lying (knows what he saying is wrong) or incompetent (does not know his facts).

    I don't agree with everything Trump says or stands for.

    All of a sudden...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 03, 2017, 01:50:04 pm
    As for that laundry list, yeah, Trump says a lot of stuff that is inaccurate or made up. I've cringed many times listening to him.

    Inaccurate is not the right word, it sounds much too harmless for someone in Trump's position. He is either lying (knows what he saying is wrong) or incompetent (does not know his facts).

    I don't agree with everything Trump says or stands for.

    All of a sudden...


    Did you assume that because I voted for Trump and agreed with some of his positions, that therefore I must agree with everything he says?

    Did you blindly assume that I fit into some sort of red cap wearing Trump supporter stereotype?

    I said from the beginning that the two choices, Trump vs Hillary were bad and that we were left to choose the better of two.

     My conclusion was that Trump was more promising and less problematic than hillary. My decisions were made not so much on personality or public opinion but on what our country needs and what the candidates offered or subscribed to.

    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on August 03, 2017, 07:37:00 pm

    Did you assume that because I voted for Trump and agreed with some of his positions, that therefore I must agree with everything he says?

    Did you blindly assume that I fit into some sort of red cap wearing Trump supporter stereotype?

    I said from the beginning that the two choices, Trump vs Hillary were bad and that we were left to choose the better of two.

     My conclusion was that Trump was more promising and less problematic than hillary. My decisions were made not so much on personality or public opinion but on what our country needs and what the candidates offered or subscribed to.

    Now that you mention it, I do remember you saying something about both Trump and Clinton being bad choices. However, I do not remember you criticizing Trump or disagreeing with him, and a Search in the forums seems to confirm this. (I say "seems", because I have strong doubts about the quality of the search results. So my apologies if I am wrong here. I tried to check.)
    But I am really glad to hear that you do not share all of Trump's views, and that you state this clearly. Critical thinking towards our leaders is becoming more important by the hour, it seems. Only yesterday German buyers of Diesel cars got totally f*cked by the unholy union of Government and Car Producers. (Short version: Instead of forcing the cheating Producers to replace hardware parts of the Diesel system, there will only be a software update, which, of course, has a much lesser effect on the Diesel exhausts.)
    I cannot eat as much as I want to puke.


    Edited to remove a typo.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 04, 2017, 02:46:44 am
    To be fair, the thing I dislike most about Trump is that he's a horrible speaker. A lot of self inflicted damage could have been avoided if he used a script and stuck to it.. On the other hand, I think the fact that he just spoke his mind drew a lot of people to him.

    On the topic of dieselgate, the Irish times had an interesting article:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/german-carmakers-running-out-of-political-cover-on-emissions-scandal-1.3170031?mode=amp

    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on August 04, 2017, 07:46:42 am
    PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.

    In other words, you are unable to do so because I've off-hand recalled information I studied and cited actual laws to back up my arguments and so you feel the need to defend your ego with hollow claims of superiority. No one believes in superiority without demonstration. People are far too egotistical for that.

    Funny how LigH segued without concession and Ralas has yet to be seen. No humility.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on August 04, 2017, 10:40:20 am
    PS : I don't feel like destroying any statement from Volki and Rigwyn that I could destroy. It would take too long and anyway this is dead-end. They can't be convinced of anything, they only rely on persuasion.

    In other words, you are unable to do so because I've off-hand recalled information I studied and cited actual laws to back up my arguments and so you feel the need to defend your ego with hollow claims of superiority.
    Ha, certainly not. This was only an explanation as for why I didn't add a new text block to this already long topic : I'm just getting tired of it. But as you insist I'll destroy one to prove that you aren't as flawless as you pretend to be.

    Basically, if you match the statistic of someone who would require medical attention prior to serving, is statistically more likely to commit suicide, is more likely to not be able to serve for a period of time due to medical issues, or will be more likely than the average recruit to drop out, you're not worth our military's time. Trans people are a huge risk to take in because, if it's someone who intends to transition while in the military, they will be unable to serve at full capacity for at least one of the four years people normally sign on for. Secondly, but very importantly, they have many times the rate of committing suicide than an average person. Thirdly, there is a large statistical proportion of trans people who have mental illness, much greater than the non-trans population.
    Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized. Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.
    About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.
    About mental illnesses, here I ask you for a source. And given your previous post, you'd better give me one. Secondly, even so, trans people don't all have mental illnesses and there's no reason why a trans should be turned down because others have mental illnesses. Another thing : depending on the context, some among what are considered mental illnesses can prove to be a good thing. For example people with the Asperger's syndrom are typically more intelligent than the average people and totally can achieve great things despite what first appears as a weakness. Ah, also : there are suspicions that Trump suffer from Alzheimer... I think this is more dangerous for the US and its army than two low-rank soldiers suffering from any mental illness.

    Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals. You can't summarize one's personality, qualities and flaws to the fact they be trans. If a tactical genius applies to the army, it would be a shame to turn them down because they are trans.
    ... But maybe you think trans can't be tactical geniuses because they are all worthless ?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on August 04, 2017, 02:03:14 pm
    Quote
    Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized.

    Regardless of the reason, if they are statistically at a higher risk to fail in a military scenario, then all the more reason not to put them in that position. Choices like this are probably not made in order to disparage or marginalize people ( That would be a pretty stupid motif ). They're more likely done for more self serving reasons, like protecting other military personnel from the consequences of human failure or reducing medical and legal expenses should a tg candidate decide that they need special accomodations, their nuts lopped off and an endless series of visits with a psychiatrist at the military's expense.

    Quote
    Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.
    Sadly, that's not going to change. They will always be people with their opinions, advice and criticism.

    Quote
    About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.

    This is more about statistics and probability. Yes, anyone can get sick, but if you need to pick people for mission critical work, you're going to want to find ways to maximize your chances of picking people who will be successful. This is not one of those places where we should be overly concerned about being "equal". We want the best picks possible, not necessarily the most diverse, or the most "fair" or the most "representative" of the population.

    Quote
    Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.

    I could be wrong, but I don't think the military gives a crap about individuals - especially special snowflakes.

    As for trans folks in the military, every individual is different. This one made the Seal team, which is nothing to sneeze at.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Beck
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: leonideus on August 05, 2017, 08:26:26 pm
    your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on August 06, 2017, 12:36:25 am
    your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.
    That they want people able to follow orders without asking actually means they do care about who people are, you know.

    Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.
    What I meant here was precisely that : recruiting for the army you would ask yourself whether one would be able to follow orders, how fast and how well they will react in case of a danger, etc. And this is about one's quality and flaws, their individuality in short. And if a trans has every quality you seek, it would be nonsensical to turn them down only because they are trans, and instead take someone who isn't as good.
    You can tell what you want about trans being globally a lesser choice, trans aren't all the same. Having trans quotas in the army to make sure they have their chances as well as the cis wouldn't make sense, but turning every trans down makes no sense either.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Ralas on August 06, 2017, 12:46:59 am
    your right about that, they basically want puppets that move on command rather than people with a will of their own. much easier to do whatever they want that way.
    That they want people able to follow orders without asking actually means they do care about who people are, you know.


    Everything you've said in these last couple of posts is brilliant and I challenge anyone to bring a SENSIBLE counterargument.

    My best friend went to the military.  To the marines.  He went to Iraq and says he "saw some firefights" but that is the extent to which he'll talk about it.  He had some problems when he left, as do most of us.  But he came back with many more.  So it's funny, mental health-wise, that the one condition that will disqualify you is the one that you contract immediately upon serving.
    Quote
    Quote from: Aeghiss link=topic=42841.msg482929#msg482929 date=1501836020
    Finally, something you didn't mention (of course...) : even though being trans surely is more of a weakness than a strength in a discriminating society, trans people are first and foremost individuals.
    What I meant here was precisely that : recruiting for the army you would ask yourself whether one would be able to follow orders, how fast and how well they will react in case of a danger, etc. And this is about one's quality and flaws, their individuality in short. And if a trans has every quality you seek, it would be nonsensical to turn them down only because they are trans, and instead take someone who isn't as good.
    You can tell what you want about trans being globally a lesser choice, trans aren't all the same. Having trans quotas in the army to make sure they have their chances as well as the cis wouldn't make sense, but turning every trans down makes no sense either.

    Yeah.  I think anytime you're saying BLANK people should be banned from BLANK thing, you're being discriminatory (that's using the word "discriminatory" with the added nuance that usually comes with the word's definition in the domain-specific context of the thread.  Now you can put away your dictionary and stop  spouting off its contents which are surface-level and only surface-level relevant to this conversation, okay?)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on August 07, 2017, 08:48:22 am
    Trans people are more likely to commit suicide, you say ? I won't ask for the source, because this sounds obvious. And why so ? Because they are stigmatized.

    No, it's because gender identity disorder is co-morbid to an extremely high degree with other mental illnesses. Co-morbidity is also a reason I'd probably be denied. I was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder as a child and have ADHD, both of which can be co-morbid with personality disorders.

    Trans people would have less reasons to if there weren't people like you to tell them they are trash unworthy of what they want to do.

    My favorite YouTuber is trans... Somehow I'm still a transphobe.

    About transition : cisgender people can get ill and be unable to serve at a moment. Don't tell me the military kicks their soldiers out as soon as they catch something worse than a cold, it would be laughable.

    Have you never heard of an honorable discharge? By the way, you can't catch gender identity disorder. It's something you're born with.

    About mental illnesses, here I ask you for a source. And given your previous post, you'd better give me one.

    A source for what? Be specific. Considering how you thought you'd destroy me, I'm surprised you'd need one.

    Secondly, even so, trans people don't all have mental illnesses and there's no reason why a trans should be turned down because others have mental illnesses.

    I just explained why they should be turned down. Firstly, they already have a mental disorder (gender identity disorder). Secondly, it's often co-morbid with other disorders. As in a minority of people with GID don't have any other disorders. That's why they are turned down and should be barred in my opinion. What matters is statistics. Recruiting shouldn't waste time on unlikely candidates.

    Another thing : depending on the context, some among what are considered mental illnesses can prove to be a good thing. For example people with the Asperger's syndrom are typically more intelligent than the average people and totally can achieve great things despite what first appears as a weakness.

    Key word: "can". I wouldn't waste my time with someone who could prove to be exceptional. Also, Asperger's can give someone more intelligence in some areas, but it always necessitates lack of intelligence in important areas.

    trans people are first and foremost individuals. You can't summarize one's personality, qualities and flaws to the fact they be trans. If a tactical genius applies to the army, it would be a shame to turn them down because they are trans.

    The military does not hire people based on them being individuals. It hires based on who would be best for the job according to statistical projections. No one is born a tactical genius, either. You are trained to become one if your test results are that you could become a tactical genius. One diamond in the rough isn't worth the effort.

    ... But maybe you think trans can't be tactical geniuses because they are all worthless ?

    There's an entirely different group of people who I consider to be worthless, and it's not transgender people. It's people who make no effort to educate themselves and allow their minds to be filled with feel-good nonsense. People who protect their unquestioned ideas by accusing anyone who dares question them of being a liar, a bigot, a sociopath, and so on.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on December 16, 2017, 11:03:33 pm
    How much do they fear science that they feel an urge to restrict it?

    (https://78.media.tumblr.com/fd6b2e49eda884293909a1069aa83617/tumblr_p12a0wOJVU1shiv3ro1_540.png) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/cdc-gets-list-of-forbidden-words-fetus-transgender-diversity/2017/12/15/f503837a-e1cf-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on December 18, 2017, 12:59:02 am
    this thread needs to die. it's just a German complaining about another country's politics at this point.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: MishkaL1138 on December 18, 2017, 03:07:54 pm
    this thread needs to die. it's just a German complaining about another country's politics at this point.
    ^
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on December 18, 2017, 07:42:22 pm
    How much do they fear science that they feel an urge to restrict it?

    (https://78.media.tumblr.com/fd6b2e49eda884293909a1069aa83617/tumblr_p12a0wOJVU1shiv3ro1_540.png) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/cdc-gets-list-of-forbidden-words-fetus-transgender-diversity/2017/12/15/f503837a-e1cf-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html)

    Stupid people fear what they do not understand.
    @Volki: At least two Germans.
    :)
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on December 18, 2017, 10:43:13 pm
    Hence my post. Germans have a pathological desire to control everything, including other nations. You try to force your little theories on free nations when you don't understand the different context of another country. The nice thing is that all you're going to accomplish here is annoying people.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on December 18, 2017, 11:40:08 pm
    Hence my post. Germans have a pathological desire to control everything, including other nations. You try to force your little theories on free nations when you don't understand the different context of another country. The nice thing is that all you're going to accomplish here is annoying people.

    Free as in free to use the words you consider appropriate?
    I am not trying to control anything, I am criticizing the behaviour of the US President, this time his constant denial of facts: If these words / phrases do no longer appear in reports, the facts behind are no longer there.
    Orwellian indeed, this linguistic manipulation, aka censorship. Or just different context of another country...


    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on December 18, 2017, 11:57:27 pm
    Though I wonder whether the PS forum is the right place to talk about such things, I can only agree with Gonger and LigH... So, two Germans and a French one.

    Oh, and an American throwing out clichés and/or prejudices too. Btw if there really were only two Germans and a French person here, then they wouldn't annoy anyone. If you react, then that means you feel concerned with the thread.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on December 19, 2017, 02:09:27 am
    I'm meeting them in kind.

    Those words are used for propaganda. That's why they're banned or whatever. They are not words that you would use in research or anything useful, really. Except fetus? That's related to the abortion controversy, I guess. Do any of you know what the CDC is?

    As I said: context. Worry about your own countries until you're willing to put in the effort to understand ours. Especially because your own states are far more Orwellian at this point.

    edit: There are several others annoyed by this thread. I really have no idea how you could think otherwise given the statements being said. But, again, could be lack of context.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on December 19, 2017, 09:02:03 am
    Talking about the development of a fetus in the uterus is "propaganda"? I used to believe it's science...  ::)

    Belief is vulnerable to science-based arguments. Science means: theory, doubt, verification, proof or disproof, possible revision, etc.; belief can't afford any doubt, science develops out of it. (The German scientific comedian Vince Ebert explained it nicely: Science means looking into the fridge whether it contains a beer or not; belief means not looking in fear there might be none.)

    By the way, I am seeking for a linguist to debate a theory about the existence of words with a "weak semantics" (semantics = the meaning of a word or phrase). One example is the word "freedom". It has little meaning on its own, IMHO, you always have to add a more specific context, explaining what you want to be free of/from. Prisoners want to be free from their containment. People in a dictatorship want to be free from the oppression of their government. Liberal economist want to be free from governmental regulations limiting their profits. In general, freedom is seen as a positive term ... until it is given to one party by taking it from another.

    People getting annoyed by this thread are not forced to read it further on, once they found it annoys them.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Aeghiss on December 19, 2017, 09:55:43 am
    @volki If you want to avoid saying any word used in propaganda, you should basically give up talking at all.
    Oh, and saying that "evidence-based" would in no way be used in a research context... Well, you made me laugh at least.

    @LigH : I wouldn't say that "freedom" has a weak semantics. On the contrary it's extremely broad, and that's what makes it impossible to figure out its meaning out of a given context.
    If you want to talk about semantics further on, we should consider opening a new thread.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Mairon on December 19, 2017, 10:18:59 am
    Let's ban the word "multiculturalism", m8s. My sense of entitlement feels quite vulnerable when I hear it and it doesn't bring any actual diversity as well. Don't know anything about transgender fetuses, to be honest, but as far as I know, science-based approach is always evidence-based in the first place.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Mairon on December 19, 2017, 10:21:05 am
    How to scare Germans to death: express a tiny shred of doubt in Merkel's and EU's policies and have them run away in fear.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on December 19, 2017, 10:36:10 am
    How to scare Germans to death: express a tiny shred of doubt in Merkel's and EU's policies and have them run away in fear.

    Certainly not. I strongly disagree with her on many points (and agree with her on some points).
    And the EU is far from being perfect, so I am in favour of people like Macron who want to change and improve it, without destroying its foundations. Let's not forget that Europe has never known more peace and stability.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: LigH on December 19, 2017, 02:48:37 pm
    The German mob yelling "We are the people!" on PEGIDA demonstrations may be the loudest, yet still a minority. But they are mostly "contra Merkel" and "contra European over-regulation" — without any consistent "pro" visions, though.

    And the "majority" voting for Merkel ... sometimes I wonder if a significant part of her "core voters" is still capable of exercizing free will (I remember reports how pensioners' mail ballots were handled by their official guardians in bulk).

    The strongest ally of the "Christian" "Union" faction is probably the faction of the non-voters; would they vote for any other party, instead of forfeiting their vote, no coalition could have less than three parties. In our last election we had plenty of candidates, >40 parties. Most of them were excluded by the 5% threshold. A pity for all the progressive democratic ones...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on December 19, 2017, 05:17:02 pm
    @volki If you want to avoid saying any word used in propaganda, you should basically give up talking at all.
    Oh, and saying that "evidence-based" would in no way be used in a research context... Well, you made me laugh at least.

    What makes me laugh is that you're so ignorant of the context that you think these words and phrases are not strictly for propaganda. No one says these in research, except "fetus", and I'm getting the feeling that all of this is in reference to the CDC's public work, which makes 100% more sense than what you and LigH are suggesting. We have an issue with taxpayer-funded organizations and programs becoming politically biased.

    Maybe try living here for a bit and get to know our country, people, and what words we deem to be politically charged before calling it Orwellian to tell the CDC to stop using Orwellian tactics.

    Where are the mods?!
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on December 19, 2017, 05:34:25 pm

    What makes me laugh is that you're so ignorant of the context that you think these words and phrases are not strictly for propaganda. No one says these in research, except "fetus", and I'm getting the feeling that all of this is in reference to the CDC's public work, which makes 100% more sense than what you and LigH are suggesting. We have an issue with taxpayer-funded organizations and programs becoming politically biased.

    Maybe try living here for a bit and get to know our country, people, and what words we deem to be politically charged before calling it Orwellian to tell the CDC to stop using Orwellian tactics.

    Enlighten us, then. But not only with your own words, but with some reliable sources, if you please.
    All I was saying is that it is both Orwellian and censorship to forbid certain words / phrases to be used. I was not saying that otherwise the CDC ("the nation's health protection agency", quoted from their website) is right or wrong or whatever else.


    Where are the mods?!

    Why mods? Except for laughing at each other, nothing bad is happening in this thread.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Volki on December 19, 2017, 06:17:12 pm
    Are you asking that I prove the non-existence of something? LOL

    From my recollection, politics and religion were not allowed on this forum. Seems that they're not. This forum is toxic.
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: gonger on December 19, 2017, 06:32:31 pm
    Volki, you said that we are ignorant of the context, and therefore I asked you to enlighten us (about this context).
    My apologies if that was really too hard to understand...
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Geoni on December 20, 2017, 11:32:08 am
    I'll too lazy to catch up on 12 pages of this thread. Why are we talking about transgendered fetuses?
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Jilerel on December 20, 2017, 06:17:55 pm
    Time is up.
    People start talking about Macron and stuff, wtf.
    Sure he has a nice project, though he's still under German influence. I digress.

    About that whole "CDC" thing. I took my glasses and done my research.  :detective:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/health/cdc-trump-banned-words.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/health/cdc-trump-banned-words.html)

    First things first, it wasn't a ban. CDC officials don't say a meeting never happened though. It is definitely a strong recommendation.

    Now, that recommendation is only used in budget reports.
    Is that bad ? Not really. Is it okay ? Not the slightest.
    Actually, it is a fact that you can't escape politics. Even a doctor can't.
    If you want to help people, you will need funding. If you start telling your banker that you're leaving your job, you shouldn't expect that shiny loan. Same goes for everyone, every investor. (and yes, the State and the population IS an investor.)

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/16/trump-administration-reportedly-prohibits-cdc-from-using-words-like-transgender-fetus.html (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/16/trump-administration-reportedly-prohibits-cdc-from-using-words-like-transgender-fetus.html)
    Quote
    In the case of “science-based” and “evidence-based,” the analyst said a substitute phrase was: “CDC bases its recommendations on science in consideration with community standards and wishes.

    So the "complete-ban" is already debunked, but is also shows one thing. All words are not treated the same.

    Okay so. We can ask ourselves, why this recommendation ? The recommendation is for budget reports for the Congress, and I think it might be useful to consider what would be the worst case scenario.
    Let's say the CDC puts up a thing in the report about transgender stuff. They vote to approve it. Now conservatives are pissed off and republican congressmen aren't going to be reelected (it might be important to realize that the elections are happening next year, the majority of the House is republican, and with the brutal surprise Trump, it will be a very important thing to follow).
    These words are risky for economic and political reasons. It is far from being Orwellian. It is business.

    Now the question for debate is : "Is it okay that an organization such as the CDC has to follow politics and depend on public opinion for funding ?"
    Title: Re: Feelings and responsibility
    Post by: Rigwyn on December 20, 2017, 08:47:38 pm
    I wish we had a like button  --^

    Keep in mind, the CDC is funded by US taxpayers and is not a private organization. This isn't the same as if Trump told a private organization with no government funding what language they can and cannot use. In the case of a private organization, the organization would still need to obey whoever is funding it , or it's revenue generating side. That's just how shit works.

    If you are reading American news, keep in mind that our media is VERY biased right now. Most news outlets are heavily biased against the Republican party, hence Trump and his family.  You should look for the same information in news sources that have a Pro-Republican bias and then try to extract the truth from the two sources. We don't have any news sources that are unbiased.