Feelings and responsibility

[Dilihin]

Guys guys, what the **** this topic turned into again?

and then began to open the borders for the migrants to interbreed with the native population and by that lower their IQ substantially.

I really hope you were just expressing yourself poorly there.

First hand experiences maybe? xD

[MishkaL1138]

[Rigwyn]

You guys in Europe will be kicking yourselves in the ass 30 to 50 years from now when you realize what an irreversible mistake it was to let the refugees invade.

Please keep your xenophobic hasty assumptions for yourself, alright ?
You're doing precisely what I can't stand at all : telling others what to do because of your own fears/hatred.

Fear and anger are very human responses. I won't deny having them as without them, I would be less than human.

Let me ask. If someone tried to bash in your door and raid your house in the middle of the night, would you feel excited, afraid or angry, or would you just sit there on your moral high-horse and claim to be above anger and fear while those invaders stripped you of your belongings and did terrible things to those whom you live with?

Is it really better to be untainted by anger and fear or is it better to allow a measured degree of anger and fear to influence your actions and decisions?

[MishkaL1138]

Sorry to deviate from my usual whining stance about this thread, but I gotta say that the majority of this people, or at least the vocal one:

- Won't learn or follow, and some even won't respect the traditions present in the countries they take refuge in
- Most of them won't even bother learning the language, even if there are free programs for it
- They expect everyone to respect them, and then don't respect back
- Some of them have claimed to be going to reclaim Europe, by means of some sort of holy war or yihad
- They get preference for schools and some job positions
- Of those who get government aids, most of them just don't do squat, and just sit at home watching TV or whatever

It's just a list that could go on and on. But I've seen it happen, and I don't like it. I'm all for taking them in - as long as they're mindful. Stop pretending you're higher on the moral ladder and start accepting your reality.

[LigH]

Generalizations are in general wrong... — Means: Whenever I read about "most/all of them", I wonder about the source of this statement.

One of the reasons for hate against "those migrants in general" is the false assumption that the government would spend their (based on human rights just vital) support in the wealth of the citizen if they did not exist. But not the migrants are the reason that the citizen feel treated badly. The government decided how to share the wealth. Also the government made laws to keep migrants from working even if they want (so it's strange how they are blamed for "stealing your jobs" and "being lazy" at the same time), and decided to deport the best integrated and most diligent, the "role models of a good immigrant".

Just this week I listened to a talk in news TV about the relation between media and migration. Once again was explained that the major mainstream media usually emphasize the exceptions from the common social behaviour, which focuses your attention on these exceptions and hides the majority from your awareness. Why report about >90% of the nice and boring people who just live the life you expect them to? You wouldn't pay attention to that. So 'you' wouldn't pay for this report (meaning e.g. ad sellers here, whatever pays for "journalism"). Scandals bring profit, thus appear in the news. This way, the abnormal appears like the normal to you. Maybe you remember the ironic rhetoric question how it comes that every day happens just as much as it takes to fill a newspaper...
__

Back to honesty: Promises, promises ... you said you would come back to us on that!

[Aeghiss]

Aeghiss, If one fears something should they not try to prevent that which they fear?

You know the Aesculapian snake ? It's a species which doesn't bite. Now imagine I got a phone call from someone living at the other side of the town who tells me "Look ! I've seen a snake in your garden with my binoculars ! Kill it ! It's gonna bite !" There's no way I kill the Aesculapian snake because of the call.
That's the same with Rigwyn. We Europeans have no reason to ban refugees because of Americans' fears.

Let me ask. If someone tried to bash in your door and raid your house in the middle of the night, would you feel excited, afraid or angry, or would you just sit there on your moral high-horse and claim to be above anger and fear while those invaders stripped you of your belongings and did terrible things to those whom you live with?

In northern countries (Finland, Suede, Norway, Canada), there are people who just don't lock their doors at all - much more than you'd expect - and there aren't more burglaries than in ours. Historical reasons for this are that in case someone gets lost in the winter, they'd better not have to wait for people to hear and react to them knocking on the door.
The point is : in case you hadn't noticed, there's a difference between someone asking you to give them refuge, and a criminal - whatever the scale.

@LigH :

[netforce10]

We should not kill necessarily kill the snake but he should still have called to warn you about it. And you should not shout at him that he is Ophidiophobic(phobic for snakes) and shout that he should just keep his fears and hatred for snakes to himself. He does perhaps not see an Aesculapian snake but a very venomous one, now you can both keep shouting to eachother what you think it is or grab a book of snakes and their characteristics and start looking at what it is actually or be pleasant about it and thank them for the warning but say you think it is not something to be concerned about and hang up.

Personally my opinion on the refugees is that first and foremost, not all of them are horrible and not all of them are good and honest but I have no real clue about which tint of grey it as a whole is and second, I would rather not have them here, I rather would have in their own country where they wouldn't have to flee from. But what needs be needs be and I think that to a certain extent we should provide atleast some safety to those who are "real" refugees("real" explanation: those not trying to improve their quality of life while able to live a decent live where they are)

[Rigwyn]

Regarding Aeghiss' point about leaving doors unlocked, you can do that in areas where people respect each other. In areas that are culturally different, where people don't respect each other, you would be robbed blind and possibly harmed if you did that.

It's big mistake to assume that everyone else is as respectful and honest as you are. The ugly truth is that such cultural norms vary.

Example:

Where I live, if you rob people, treat women like dogs, and sodomize kids, then you are a horrible person. In Afghanistan, such behavior is considered normal. Does this make people from Afghanistan horrible people? Yes, those of them who act like that are, but if you say that, people will freak out and call you an islamapbobic, xenophobic racist.

It seems that a lot of people are so hung up on being "politically correct" that they will white wash the ugly truth with pleasant lies rather than just acknowledging it.

[Aeghiss]

Personally my opinion on the refugees is that first and foremost, not all of them are horrible and not all of them are good and honest

Quite true... Like every human group.

But what needs be needs be and I think that to a certain extent we should provide atleast some safety to those who are "real" refugees("real" explanation: those not trying to improve their quality of life while able to live a decent live where they are)

Actually, people who don't need to flee their countries and still move on usually are among these able to immigrate legally - which means the point about whether to welcome them doesn't make sense.

Regarding Aeghiss' point about leaving doors unlocked, you can do that in areas where people respect each other. In areas that are culturally different, where people don't respect each other, you would be robbed blind and possibly harmed if you did that.

It's big mistake to assume that everyone else is as respectful and honest as you are. The ugly truth is that such cultural norms vary.

Don't assume I see life through rose-tinted glasses. I know people aren't all good, and I've even learnt that more quickly than usual European kids. Yet I'll let you think about it : what do you think is best living in : a country where one can leave their door open without risk, or one where they cannot ? The answer is pretty obvious. And then : how do you think our way of being can become more trusting ?
Also, don't think there are burglars on every corner. Little true fact here : my family and I once came back from holidays and realised we had left the key right on the door... Two weeks ago. Nothing had happened meanwhile. And even though I don't live in Paris, I still live in France. Not in Suede or Canada.

Where I live, if you rob people, treat women like dogs, and sodomize kids, then you are a horrible person. In Afghanistan, such behavior is considered normal. Does this make people from Afghanistan horrible people? Yes, those of them who act like that are, but if you say that, people will freak out and call you an islamapbobic, xenophobic racist.

Conservative African and Middle-East countries usually are macho, and many consider raping a 14-years-old girls the same as raping a 18-years-old one indeed... Which they don't give a damn about anyway. I state loud and clear that it's unbearable, and I defy anyone to call me a racist because of it.
Still do you really think kicking refugees is the way we can fight conservatism and machismo ? Not every refugee is macho or conservative, and doubt that the most conservative and macho of all are the ones who flee their homes. Besides, Western countries are far from perfect about it either.

[Ralas]

First off, we don't hate Trump because he "speaks his mind."  We hate him because he is a bumbling, megalomaniac xenophobe who has absolutely no idea how to run a country.

How many of the other candidates have experience running the country?
Zip.
This is a new experience for any candidate unless they are being re-elected, and with it comes a sharp learning curve.

  He thinks all Mexicans are criminals and rapists and all Muslims are terrorists.

That is not what he's said and is not accurate. Replace the "all" with "some" and you'll be a bit closer.  As for what he thinks, it's not knowable and not really relevant.

  His most concrete plans involve building walls, doing "something" about Muslims, and replacing Obamacare with "IDK something better."

What's interesting about this point is that when candidates spout off about specific plans, they typically don't carry through once elected. I suspect it's because they are not privy to the whole story until they are in. ( That or they are just spouting bullshit ). Given this, I'm fine with a rough idea and some history of competence in an executive position.

Trump can't even maintain diplomatic relations with Fox News, who is universally recognized to have a huge bias toward his own side of the aisle.  Can you imagine him at peace talks between Palestine and Israel?  Things would blow up.  More than they already do, I mean.

You have a point there , but I don't think FOX news was interested in supporting him specifically. Remember, he's hitting for the Republicans but he's not bound by them like Cruz and Rubio ( who would be completely helpless without their money ). When a candidate is entirely dependent on their sponsor's money, they are their bitch ( or puppet ). Trump is neither - like Romney( who I despised for reasons not relevant to this topic ) he has his own money and/or means of raising it.

As far as Socialism goes...that whole thing about the safety net (Welfare, Unemployment, etc) is complete hogwash.  It's often spouted by conservatives in favor of "trickle-down economics," which has been failing to work since at least the Nixon era.  People aren't fundamentally lazy--sure maybe a few of them are.

There are entire communities where people make a lifestyle out of living off of welfare and food stamps. Some kids grow up thinking that "EBT" cards are the same as "DEBIT" cards. ( They are plastic cards that are used to distribute money to poor people electronically - not the same as a card that gives you access to money you have earned. ) I would cite some references, but I really don't want people accusing me of being racist or anti-religious or anti-semetic or whatever. It's a sticky topic. If you want to know more about it, google it.

But you'll notice the evidence for this is always anecdotal.  When arguing politics with a conservative friend after a few too many G&T's he will inevitably mention his uncle's friend's cousin's wife's roommate who lives in a shack and doesn't work so that he can get welfare.  I'm not saying that these people don't exist, but they are a statistically negligent minority.

Let's see... Bronx, Harlem, Kiryas Joel to name a few. We're not talking about some lazy college kid who found a way to beat the system. ( Not all people in these areas are on welfare, but many are. ) This is not anecdotal. Here's some details of the percentage of folks who are getting food stamps etc...  ( Mind you, these food stamps are paid for by people with jobs - many of which are struggling to feed their own families )
http://frac.org/pdf/ny_times_snap_poverty_formatted.pdf

Most people who use the safety net want desperately to get off of it. 

I applaud those who are caught by the net, get up and recover. That's one example of proper use. For those who are genuinely disabled or who need a hand temporarily, they too are using this resource as intended.

Think also about how a wider safety net would likely increase innovation.  For instance, I would love to quit my current job and start a business, but I'm afraid of what will happen if my business fails and I can't pay my rent.

I don't think giving out more money is going to breed incentive. Rewarded behavior tends to repeat. Giving money is essentially giving a reward.

As for starting your own business, I would love to work for myself too, but similarly, I don't know how I would transition from from my job to self employment  AND ensure that I make the same amount of money and benefits or more. I don't think welfare is going to help with that. For that, you probably need to take some business classes or seek a mentor.

I apologize for not apologizing sooner.  Sarras, you implied an idiocy on my part that I think you should know is not there, so I felt no need to respond.  Rigwyn, nothing you posted was a sensible argument against what Trump had himself said in the debates and through other media outlets.  Like, you can't ask me to prove something he's already readily admitted to.  So it didn't seem worth my time to help you diagnose your logic.

What he has done since he has taken office again proves me right.  As if there weren't a mound of evidence already, now there's this:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/opinion/donald-trump-scouts-tradition.html?mwrsm=Facebook&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com

Oh well man at least we didn't get stuck with a woman who (legally) deleted (private) emails, right?

[Volki]

Sarras, you implied an idiocy on my part that I think you should know is not there, so I felt no need to respond.

I have no idea what you are responding to. The quote in your post is of someone else's words, not mine.

Haven't even bothered to post in this thread because my time has been taken up with more worthwhile activities. But I'll probably return to this with a compendium of videos and research showing that Europe is basically allowing itself to be invaded in the same way it was almost a thousand years ago, except this time the battles are being fought as individuals vs a whole culture, and so Europe will inevitably lose unless it returns to national and liberal values.

[Ralas]

I have no idea what you are responding to. The quote in your post is of someone else's words, not mine.

I didn't quote it because your argument wasn't worth dissecting.  You called my fears and cries of fascism concerns of an immature person who did not understand what the word means, against a literal plethora of evidence which only continues to grow.  Hence the cited article.

[Damola]

Okay, I just realized how long this thread is and I responded to something on the first page. I am overwhelmed and I think I won´t read the rest of the thread… so take this for my opinion and I am out of this again.

Rubio is too green.

How can someone be "too green" in a world that gets destroyed a bit more every day?

Seconded. And… from what I gather over here in Germany: Many, many people are fed up of the unlimited neo-liberalism and corporate influence that seem to drive so many important political decisions. Politicians, not only the US, also here in Germany consistently and I think in full consciousness bring up a ton of decisions that directly violate our constitutions. More surveillance, more power to big companies, more destruction of our all environment, more and more trade agreements that reduce environmental standards by mostly only serving big corporations that do not think a day more into the future than their greediness for lots and lots of $$$ can see and more and more outright violation of the basic human rights that form the base of each democracy.

What gives me hope tough: More and more people stand up against it and remind politicians of their mission. Here in Germany… and in the US where quite some people as to what I read work on finding ways to impeach Donald Trump. I think thats something that would be good to do with Angela Merkel as well, but unlike Trump, she at least does not own a huge company that she directly benefits with her political decisions.

What is needed is a global shift. And its starting already. I see what we see here is the end of capitalism as we know it. It just happens to be after the end of what people called communism (but wasn´t).

So I for my case diligently direct the money and energy I have into initiative that are about to create sustainability, recently becoming a member of the first and only public bank I know of that does not ask for interests for authorized overdraft limits anymore starting to break out of the interest madness that for pure mathematical reasons can not work indefinitely. And support charities and petitions which aim for manifesting change.

So or so… nothing of this directly has to do anything with PlaneShift.

[Volki]

You called my fears and cries of fascism concerns of an immature person who did not understand what the word means, against a literal plethora of evidence which only continues to grow.

You really should quote it if you're going to refer to something that's pages back.

And, no offense, it really does sound like you have no idea what fascism is. I don't need to make an argument that you don't know what it is. The fact that you are claiming something that's clearly not fascism to be fascism is enough to reveal your ignorance. You probably can't even define it without looking it up. You're probably not even aware of the fascist parties that have existed in countries that have never had fascist leaders. You probably can't even explain how fascist states come to be.

I can't express in English just how ignorant what you're saying is.

I see what we see here is the end of capitalism as we know it. It just happens to be after the end of what people called communism (but wasn´t).

What do you mean by this? If capitalism were to end, it would be because resource, labor, and product had all lost value. Which is likely only possible in a post-scarcity world in which a pea has just as much value as a private jet.

[Mairon]

Actually, defining fascism in economical terms is pretty simple - it`s socializing the cost while privatizing the profit. Also, if you look at the fasces symbol it can be easily understood that the axe (the authority) is holding the rods (the people) together by force.
That`s where it`s all coming - to a global(ist) fascist-communist dictatorship and martial law all over the world.
And to all the cucks out there - if you want to be outbred, go for it, but don`t disturb others.

P.S. From Eastern Europe with love.