Author Topic: Rude players stealing kills  (Read 5683 times)

Lordbug

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 597
  • Magic Mugs!
    • View Profile
    • Knowledge Seekers guild
(No subject)
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2005, 05:49:00 pm »
Quote
Everyone here is talking about KSing, But honestly no one wants it to happen to them. If you wanted to solve it make the monsters level dependent.

Actually I do want to happen that kind of stuff to me... KS, a group of player thugs beat the crap out of me and steal my stuff... or at least they approach me with that intention and I beat the crap out of them with my 1337 spelzors! :D :P
"Lordbug" Dosaki, Chancellor of Knowledge Seekers Guild

Where does the PlaneShift Modding Community live nowadays?

Esserfin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2005, 09:01:38 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar Esserfin is another player who\'s really bad for this kind of crap.


What?
Hope you are just joking... who are you?
I\'ve never stoled a kill with magic (just a cup of times because of other character steal, but i never killed the monster).
If i don\'t invite someone to group kill is because:
1) he didn\'t asked me
2) i saw him killing noobs around too much times
3) i saw him trying to steal the kill to me or to someone else (also in another day, i have good memory for that)
4) he offended or used bad words with me (or with someone else again)
5) he is arrogant with weaker characters
6) he say \'let me group or i call a GM...gne gne gne\"
7) i didn\'t noticed you for some reason (view position, 4 /tell session and /guild chat opened and hard chatting and so on)


So, again, who are you? I don\'t know a character called \'Zanzibar\' online in PS. Use your \'real\' name please to libel me.

Esserfin Sussert



« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 09:38:35 pm by Esserfin »
Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council

Dark monk

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2005, 10:27:03 pm »
Oh no.... i haven\'t even started playing , i\'m waiting for moderator to manually activate my account and i find out about this..... This is depressing... :( o well still seems like a pretty good game.

Also you can get banned for ksing right????

DaveG

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2005, 11:20:23 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Dark monk
Also you can get banned for ksing right????

Doing it repediately, knowingly, and after warnings...  Yes, people can be banned.

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

rauz

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2005, 09:19:57 am »
Well sure you can have killstealing as being part of the roleplay, seeing as those characters are \"evil\" then. But if so, there should be laws active, and some sort of \"general order\" walking around that prevent people from disobeying that law.

hramrach

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2005, 09:30:33 pm »
The problem is that once you allow (kill)stealing, open killnig, and the like people will abuse it.

As it was mentioned earlier, even if it was not abused it would require great deal of RP experience of the player to deal with that. And it could be that at times you would not be in the mood to deal with such things although you can normally play that well.

Now if you add the people abusing such features because they are just evil (or whatever you would you call that) OOC, you get a quite unpleasant experience, especially for the beginners.

No \"laws\" or \"cops\" can solve this problem. The offenders can create multiple accounts in PS or in varoius games to play while one of their account is banned. Killing the character is not a great deal. It just appears at the exact place where most noobs are located and can continue annoying them.

IMHO any PKing and stealing should be off by default unless somebody comes with some briliant idea how to make it impossible to abuse. It is fine to have guild wars or select places for PKing (as opposed select non-PKing places), and even the ability for a guild to declare war on itself - just none of them turned on by default.

The fact there are few monsters (or the monsters are hard to find) and few things to do except monster killing is a (mis)feature of the game. This means that mosters are a scarce resource and people can be expected to try to get hold of some even by some not-so-polite means. That is how some poeple behave.
Once the game features change monsters will not be so important anymore. Plus any bugs in the current attack system should be fixed, of course.

To add my personal experience: I finally managed to get the game running (or at least walking as long as I do not look in the direction of the Plaza), and I managed to find the entrance to the sewers.
In there I saw two or three spawn places, several players surrounding each of them. I also found the smith that sells picks for 100Tria.

So it looks like I should be looking for some better hardware, and think  what I would like my character to do. The options implemented so far (mining and monster-slashing) both do not look very attractive and are near impossible to do due to in-game conditions.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 09:31:15 pm by hramrach »
Observer .. or watcher?

DaveG

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2005, 09:55:02 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
The problem is that once you allow (kill)stealing, open killnig, and the like people will abuse it.

...

No \"laws\" or \"cops\" can solve this problem. The offenders can create multiple accounts in PS or in varoius games to play while one of their account is banned. Killing the character is not a great deal. It just appears at the exact place where most noobs are located and can continue annoying them.

I agree to some degree.  Largely due to the second to last sentence.  Death isn\'t permanent, thus there isn\'t much of a punishment to fear.  (for non-cheating offenses; it\'s possible to ban their IP all together if they\'re caught cheating)

What I think would be best, is an open PK system, because right now only a GM can do anything and all players are completely helpless to defend anything.  But, the DR needs to be expanded first to make death more of something to resist.  (we rambled about DR stuff in this thread here)  To some degree, yes, there\'d occasionally be some chaos.  But, eventually the morons annoying people would figure out they\'re not wanted, due to myself and others repediately killing them...  :P

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
I managed to find the entrance to the sewers.
In there I saw two or three spawn places, several players surrounding each of them.

Spawns are bugged, especially in the sewers.  Supposedly, it will be fixed soon.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 09:55:32 pm by DaveG »

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

Lliran

  • Wayfarer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2005, 03:43:58 pm »
In any virtual world there are not the breadth nor depth of interactions that one finds in the \'real world\'. In the real world, people have Google, newspapers, police, courts, and media.

In days past, public order was maintained by expulsion, with resultant loss of access to resources and to the collective efforts of others. Those expelled made their living off the land as scavengers or bandits. Those that chose to live as bandits, if caught, were drawn and quartered and have their heads stuck on pikes as a warning to those who would choose this path.

Now, I propose a PlaneShift version of this to deal with all the miscreants...  ;)

Allow player killing. Allow stealing of kills. Allow all negative behaviour which is legitimate within roleplay. However, these actions have consequence depending on the context of the action.

If a player attacks another player (but does not kill them, i.e. assault) within sight, sound or reasonable discovery of other players or non-evil NPCs, then the offending player should lose a chunk of their reputation which is commensurate with the offence. Loss of reputation makes it difficult for them to be served by merchants of good or lawful alignment -- and increases the likelihood that they will be refused entry to the city or community in the future.

Significant loss of reputation (such when the offender kills a player other than in self-defence) will cause the player to be arrested or executed on sight by city guards, and/or perhaps cause the posting of a bounty for their heads by the city. If the player (character) is clever/lucky enough to escape and commit further crimes, then good luck to them -- the bounty increases as does the desire of the authorities to bring the miscreant to some form of justice (i.e. execution or imprisonment). This will probably cause the formation of a posse by some enterprising or vengeful group of players (guild membership does bring benefits -- just kill a guild member and suffer their wrath) and eventually result in the death of the offending player.

Incidentally reputations (both good and bad) should decay slowly with time -- as does people\'s memories -- with the result that an occasional small misdeed will be easily forgotten after a short time, while even large misdeeds can take much, much longer.

Now, death is not much of a deterrent is it? Here\'s how it can be. Once dead, if the character died with a poor reputation (less than a certain value), then the character is dead -- completely and irreversibly -- OR the character is stuck in hell for a few hours/days/weeks (actual time), depending on how poor their reputation is.

They should also not be rewarded for their actions, so a goodly portion of their possesions can be traded with the death god to \'wipe the slate clean\' so that they can be reborn with a \'neutral\' reputation (i.e. joe average). If they don\'t trade, then they get reborn with the reputation they had when they died (but one won\'t be so mean as to respawn them in Hydlaa Plaza!)

Incidentally, some of you may think that this favours Lawful and Good characters too much. Well, there\'s a good RP reason for this. Cities and communities not only depend on lawful conduct -- they define what lawful conduct is. Lawful conduct is that which does not weaken or threaten the community. Evil characters (but not Lawful Evil in the AD&D sense) directly challenge the viability of the community and emphasize antisocial behaviour (i.e. unlawful in the RP sense) that favours their personal position or gain. As a side note, it\'s interesting that Lawful Evil characters should actually do quite well in the cities, since they are careful not to \'kill the golden goose\', but instead aim to \'milk it for all it\'s worth\' (if you\'ll pardon the deliberate mixed metaphors).

If we want it RP and we want it \'real\', let sociopathic characters have a taste of what that means in \'real\' terms. :)

BTW: Incidentally, if any developers want to know how to manage reputation using a systemtic approach, they are welcome to contact me for information on the relevant mathematical calculus and engineering details (yeah yeah boring I know but someone\'s gotta build the damn thing).

hramrach

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2005, 06:11:54 pm »
You absolutely do not get it.

If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.

He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.

DaveG being the cop is as inefficient as anything else being the cop. They will just stay out of sight of these. There cannot be a cop behind every other tree.

And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused. And hunting him down does not mean anything - he will just get out of Death Realm in a while.

It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.
Observer .. or watcher?

DaveG

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2005, 11:21:18 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
You absolutely do not get it.

Actually, I think he does...  :P

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.

People are everywhere; these things can be reported.

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.

So what?...

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
DaveG being the cop is as inefficient as anything else being the cop. They will just stay out of sight of these. There cannot be a cop behind every other tree.

So long as he does it IC and without exploiting any bugs (like the whole beginning of this thread was about :rolleyes: ), so be it.  GMs exist to enforce the rules.  They will deal with the actual cheaters.  And, they can teleport and cloak... so no hiding from them.  :P

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused.

Again I say:  So, what?

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
And hunting him down does not mean anything - he will just get out of Death Realm in a while.

Yes I agree with this.  Go read my long winding (seemingly immortal...) \"Carkarass\" thread.  We covered many ideas in there, and others are around in other threads.  But, yes, death needs to be a bigger deterent.

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.

Yes, there will be asses... but they exist in the real world too.   ;)  The solution is not to just throw out anything that can be abused, but to actually put effort into the system to make it work.

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

hramrach

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2005, 05:23:48 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by DaveG

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.

People are everywhere; these things can be reported.

And GMs have to solve the stuff all the time.
What you basically propose is: If somebody annoys me, I will try to kill him, and if somebody kills me, I will report him so that a GM bans him. Not a good system. And even banning may be ineffective - you can create multiple accounts.
Quote

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.

So what?...


So banning them out of the city is useless.

Quote

Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused.

Again I say:  So, what?


If it\'s annoying what is it good for? Who would play it?

Quote


Quote
Originally posted by hramrach
It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.

Yes, there will be asses... but they exist in the real world too.   ;)  The solution is not to just throw out anything that can be abused, but to actually put effort into the system to make it work.

Yes, but all we know is that open killing systems do not work, even with cops and whatnot. So we should not use such system.

And we also do not want a system that relies on GMs to solve everything. We do not have an infinite supply of GMs.
Observer .. or watcher?

acraig

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2005, 10:53:42 pm »
I haven\'t followed all the details of this discussion but I want to point out that there is currently a bug in the system somewhere that allows for magic to kill a target when it should not be able to.  We are actively tracking this down at the moment and it has my full attention.   By design you should only be able to attack things that you have hit first or are in a group with the original attacker.
----------
Andrew
"For all I know, she's lying, everyone's lying; welcome to the Internet"

DaveG

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2058
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2005, 11:33:52 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by acraig
I haven\'t followed all the details of this discussion but I want to point out that there is currently a bug in the system somewhere that allows for magic to kill a target when it should not be able to.  We are actively tracking this down at the moment and it has my full attention.

Yes, I pointed that out as well.  But like any thread longer than 3 posts, it\'s strayed off track...  :P  It\'s gotten to the point where it should really just be moved to the PKing sub-forum.

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

Esserfin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2005, 06:49:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Esserfin
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar Esserfin is another player who\'s really bad for this kind of crap.

So, again, who are you? I don\'t know a character called \'Zanzibar\' online in PS. Use your \'real\' name please to libel me.


Now i know you are Shalmaneser..... and people knows you.
Esserfin Sussert
The Dragon Council