I finally played Everquest - I pray that Planeshift will be nothing li

[Kendaro]

It is set up that way so players dont use it as an exploit. If it didn\'t work that way then players could easily argo a mob, beat it all they could, then run inside a shed... wait to heal and then repeat. So to keep that from happening, mobs can attack you in that manner.

[Lurb]

I play Dark Age of Camelot, and it shows the same problems as Everquest. You need to work through endless hours of repetitive monster spawn camping to get your char to be a decent competitor.

I was ready to leave the game 6 months ago, but I found the best guild. Shadowclan. In Shadowclan you concentrate on your roleplay and manage to put a dent on all the painful levelling.

You end up realizing that many of the boring gameplay was your fault, always trying to optimize everything i.e.: Lets go just to Dungeon A where the XP rate is 23.5% higher and some monster that spawns every 457 minutes has a 1% chance of dropping the Uber-Cloak-of-Refreshing that gives you 3 points of heat resist.

In Shadowclan it\'s not that strange to go on \"suicide missions\", to areas suited to higher levels just to see them, or bring very low level characters on to epic battles unlike other guilds who would consider them a nuisance.

All in all, the painful game mechanics are still  sometimes a set back on the fun.

If someone is interested on Shadowclan, visit the site:
http://www.shadowclan.com

[rathma]

the first post the person asked:

Why is EQ so popular?

 Well, its not the best game of course, but the most addicting. You need to spend tedious hours hacking and slashing and over the months becomes rediculous. I say we work on more strategical ways to earn skills than needless hacking and slashing for hours and hours. In the game i thought up instead of having to hack and slash forver, you build a big city with your friends and use your brain to figure out how you should build it and where your archers and knights shall patrol.

[Vengeance]

The whole idea is to get you to play their game for a very long time.  Therefore they make it addictive and repetitive.  If you could advance up and finish quickly, what would be the point in that?  You would just move on to the next game.  If you want that, play Final Fantasy or something.

There is also no way to make 10000 unique quests and things to do.  EQ already took something like 1000 man-years to build to achieve that repetition.  How long do you think your way would take?

Think like a builder for a while.

What you are saying is like criticizing a skyscraper because all the floors are the same shape.  There is simply no other way to do it.

- Venge

[Abemore]

rathma, quit posting about the game you thought up.

This forum is for PLANESHIFT, not your imaginary game.

and this thread is for finding out why EQ is so popular...  you quoted me yourself.  Please dont turn the topic into something that belongs on the wishlist.

[Krewl]

I quit EQ just before Christmas. I Loved some aspects of the game, and hated others.

Playing regularly with a group you know, people you actively seek out online, is the best experience going. The reason I quit is that you need to stay together in terms of level, or the group spends too much time trying to protect the weakest members of the group (If you get too far from the main group level you dont even get experience for the kills). As I liked to play several characters I lost touch with any group all my characters were weak compared to their one character they played nearly all the time.

I ended up with 8 characters ranging from level 13 to level 20, where they ended up with one at level 40+ and maybe one or two others they played infrequently.

Playing solo is one of the least enjoyable aspects of playing a mmorpg, I ended up playing too often in groups of strangers, you still feel out of the group even if they are happy for you to join. A lot of interaction will be based on prior shared experiences.

EQ is biased towards people who get pleasure from being the first to reach a high level, complete a difficult quest, etc. When you get to the mid teens and into your twenties the risk / reward that got you hooked on the game, starts to swing too far to the risk side, and consequently I found it frustrating to solo past those levels. In a group you maintain the risk / reward balance, so the addiction continues.

The game is all about risk and reward - you risk losing experience by taking on a monster around the same level as yourself, if you win you get a great big feel good by getting experience and loot. It\'s a guaranteed addiction so long as you get the right balance between risk and reward.

I loved doing quests, but most were impossible solo, or they would give a pathetic reward for the level you needed to be to complete them solo. I quit because you could not get the enjoyment being a solo character, and my inability to decide on a single character to play, I loved the different aspects of the characters. I did not want to sneak around as a rogue all the time, or be an enchanter all the time, or be a Warrior all the time.

The best characters for me were the Necromancers ( I played 3 - Iksar, Human, Dark Elf) and the Beastlord, both of these character types have a good pet the meant that together we could take on some higher level monsters before the risk / reward went too far to risk. My Iksar Necromancer and Vah Shir Beastlord were the only characters that I could get to level 20 to give them a surname.

If I had met a group of people like myself who always wanted to play multiple characters, then I would still be playing EQ now. We would have been able to group regularly and form the in game friendships that really make a mmorpg a fantastic game to play.

My greatest hope for a mmorpg is that any character can learn any skill from any class so you can mold a character to be exactly what you want. My AD&D characters are never single class characters, they are usually comprised of two or three classes, one main, one about 50% of the main and often a third to get access to the base level skills of a third class.

Just my two pennies worth, while desperately waiting to see the next release of Planeshift. Keep up the good work everyone, it\'s looking great so far.

Brian

[Vengeance]

Two thoughts here, Krewl:

a) MMORPGs all reward people who stick to a character.  If you keep switching, you will end up with a big pile of mediocrity, no matter which game you play, including PS.

b) If you like to solo, MMORPGs are not for you.  They are structured to be social, and that is what devs like me find interesting about them.  If I didn\'t like the \"MM\" in MMORPG, I would be working on an open source Resident Evil or GTA or NWN clone.

- Venge

p.s. I deleted all the stupid posts which followed Krewl\'s posting, and I will continue to do so from now on.  I\'ve had it up to here with the complete inanity now, which I feel is chasing off the smart contributors to this forum.

[Abemore]

people keep saying, \"dont play a MMORPG if you like to solo\"... but i dont think they fully understand what is ment by, \"i like to solo\".  You see, its still an RPG application.  There are conformists that join the big groups/armies and are often required to follow an extra set of rules.  But, there are also those that choose to be the lone wolf and travel the world by themself or with only a trusted friend.  It is appealing to be a \"soloer\" in a world of \"groupists\".  When your run into another while adventuring, you can sometimes stop for chat or a heal or an exchange of supplies which is also enjoyable.  

So, Venge, when you say, \"If you like to solo, MMORPGs are not for you,\" I\'m going to have to dissagree with you, because I like to solo and MMORPGs are for me.  Soloing does not automatically mean anti-social, nor does it mean a dislike of the \"MM\" in MMORPG.  If fact, everyone is here because they like MMORPGs.

EQ does not allow me to enjoy it, but I have the utmost faith that PS will be much improved over that mess.

[rathma]

rathma, quit posting about the game you thought up.This is for Planeshift

 Hmmm...thats odd....i could have sworn this whole thread was just on everquest.

[Bigfoot]

Just to clear up one post, the reason the mobs could go through doors is not due to exploits although it could have been used as one (not any more however since for a long time now you have been unable to cast through walls, and mobs heal up to 10 times faster than a player.) the main reason was due to teh complexity of teh AI had they incorporated path finding in the mobs, its easier to live with a mob going through a wall rather than code its AI so it can walk around it, not to mention it helps reduce teh network lag since the mob takes the last position of its highest aggroed enemy as its destination, no need to send lots of data on the path teh mobs takeing.

heh... Ive been jumped a number of times by griffons and even silvermane himself in Karana. but a level 30-40 mob versus a 56th levle Beastlord and his 49th level warder... you do teh maths, grilled chicken anyone?.

Best Fight ive done solo was doing teh kromrift millitia pants quest, if it wasnt for the add of a wayward frost giant elite i would have taken out teh named mob very easily... a friendly Necro rooted it for me at around 10% health, was a close fight and a fun one to.

and now for a \"You know your guild raid to chardok is screwed when\" moments...

Opps wasnt me

FooFoo teleported into teh next room, and the Sarnaks didnt like the intrusion very much. Much /boogling insued, although i was one of teh last to die, fighting to teh last hp. Screenie only shows about half the mobs that finaly arrived at our camp. heh

[Rakeleer]

I quit EQ about a year ago.  My \'main\' (my primary character, although serious addicts typically play 6 or so hehe) was a Rogue, and let me tell you, that was both the most excrutiating, and most rewarding gaming experience of my life.

But I will never, ever, ever, ever play another MMORPG like EQ again.

It is, as many others have pointed out a \'treadmill\'.  The same repetitive actions, over and over, have the same, mostly predicatable, results.

I\'ll just break it down, list-style.

The boring parts:
Killing the same critter 9000000000 times to hear a 16bit PCM of a bell go off (later replaced by a louder, better quality bell in an upgrade. yay?)

Killing the same critter 9000000001 times to get enough money to by \"A sword\".

Playing a \'rogue\' who could do none of the following effectively, or in an interesting way: pick pockets, open chests, find things, disarm traps (what are traps?) unlock doors (yeah... but why? oh... they\'ll add it two years later in an expansion.  Expansion Feature: \"A few doors matter now\".

Taking 900000000 hours to kill 9000000000 critters that mattered.

Any trade skill. (putting 900000000 things in a box with 90000000000 other things to get 1000000000 things that no one wants or cares about).

In other words, all the no-fun parts mimicked real life.

The fun parts:

Completing a difficult quest. (rogues had some good ones. They weren\'t all \"go get me this\".   Some of them were \"go get me these 27 things, figure out this riddle, and then come back and tell me, and maybe I won\'t stab you in the back for your trouble.)

Completing a difficult task that REQUIRED you do it \'solo\' (rogues again)

Completeing a difficult task that REQUIRED you do it with 9000 other people (Dragons, Gods, etc.)

Knowing that when people saw your level, you could (if you so chose) be proud, because you EARNED it (unless you were power levelled... or bought your character on ebay...  or knew a GM _really_ well..... or WERE a GM.... or a Guide.... well you get the idea).

Making friends while overcoming obstacles, fighting back to back in deep, scary dungeons, and winning either glory or despair.

In other words, all the fun parts of EQ mimicked real life.



Now...  Here\'s why I won\'t play an MMORPG like EQ again.


I HAVE a real life.  I like my fantasy fantastic, and my reality real.

That said, beyond chatting with friends, what is the point of an MMORPG?

THAT is my question.

If it\'s to immerse yourself in a different world and escape your real life for a time....  how much of real life\'s style of problem do you want to deal with?  And if you get rid of those problems (tedium and horrible consequences to your failures), what goals will you have in the game?

If it\'s to hang out with friends, and make bonds.... Why do we need a 3d interface to our chat room?

And I\'m sure there are many, many many many other reasons, but of course, those are the ones I typically hear mentioned.


I enjoy a bit of strategy, I like playing with systems, I enjoy a good 3d model with a lovely texture and mesh, I like hearing spiffy sound effects, I love reading (or hearing, or taking part in) a good story, I love solving riddles, and sometimes, dangit, I just want to kill something.  And get the girl.

And I like pretending I\'m someone I\'m not to the point where I ALMOST (looks over should for men in the white coats) believe I am that person - so that i gain insight and perspective on my own life and inner workings.

The thing I decided that I really don\'t like, and that MMORPGs primarily provide (essentially by playing to the lowest common denominator re: The Sims and EQ) is boring arse tedium and a \'risk versus reward\' scenario.

SO (deep breath)....  I\'m looking forward to seeing Planeshift arrive.  It looks to be the coolest open source project anywhere.  But the true venue of role playing will probably forever be the small group of friends around the kitchen table, or some client that emulates that.

Unless you guys do something reovultionary that I, in my infinite (and humble) wisdom haven\'t thought of.