Anti-NPC Luring Change and the Effect on Dueling

[Rongar Elani]

My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed. How it is you have to know the range of your spell so you can run away from the opponent to the limit of that range just to cast your spell before retreating again.

Ahh, i understand. And I agree; hit&run doesn't support mages, but only fighters.

My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed.

have a fighter take the blows while the mage hits it from afar.  standing still while casting is not an issue.

Basically I agree. But personally I'd like to see both 'classes' to be more accommodated. Sorry if i repeat myself, but the more i think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that a new movement system is in order to realize that goal. And the best movement I can think of, is the one I described above. I'll try to illustrate the whole idea a bit more...

Taking the focus-based movement as the fundament, some more additions to that (some of which I already mentioned).

1) Different spell casting speeds, depending on the powerslider.
2) Different movement speeds, depending on the chosen stance.
3) Attack combos, risky and taking a longer preparation, but a considerable option, when about to lose.
4) Sidesteps/rolls, to quickly evade the hit of the opponent.
5) Instant magic, not that powerful, but also a considerable option (buffs/debuffs).
6) Grabs, from which the opponent can get free from, either manually, or less complicated by stats (AGI, STR)

And now a little story including all that (badly written since I'm having a bad headache )

Both players move around, in a speed somewhere between walking and running. They keep a safety distance, not too far and not too close. One is a highskilled mage, the other one a highskilled fighter. Now the fighter decides to make a move, changes to an agressive stance, which makes him move a little, but noticeably faster. The mage notices that and quickly changes to a full defensive stance, which makes him move quite a bit slower, and easier to be approached, but knowing that his defense is good enough to survive the hit, in case it gets through. The fighter gets close enough and swings his sword, but his hit doesn't have much impact, only cuts 20% of the mage's health. He now changes to a full defensive stance and backs off slowly (by the way, full defensive shouldn't inflict a strike after X seconds). But the mage doesn't care, he casts an instant Realm3 spell, called Touch of Sorrow^TM, and the fighter's stats are being decreased by 40 for 1 minute. Now since the fighter is still backing off in full defensive stance, the mage takes the opportunity to summon a small fireball, which doesn't do too much damage (~10%), but is quickly casted and burns the fighter's armor badly (quality drop). Now the fighter is getting angry and changes to bloody stance, approaching the retreating mage and pushing him with the back to a wall. The mage sees no alternative and in the very last moment executes a sidestep, letting the fighter hit thin air (a combo being performed by the fighter would probably have been more sucessful in that situation). Now the mage strikes back and grabs the fighter from behind, trying to cut his throat with a dagger (Stats are now being compared). Since the fighter's stats are still lowered, the mage is able to inflict a bad, but non lethal would to the fighter, before having to release him again. The fighter's HP is now at 30%, the mage's is still at 80%. The fighter is now very careful in his movement, and keeps distance. In the meantime, the mage casts a Realm4 spell called Dweomer Shield^TM, which lets all damage done to him decrease his mana bar, instead of his health. Now the fighter sees no alternative and starts a very risky combo on normal stance, since there is no noticeable modification to his movement speed, so the mage does not know, that he is preparing the attack. Feeling on the safe side, the mage changes to a normal stance himself, but he started too late, the fighter has gotten close enough and hits him 3 times. The first blow decreased the mage's mana bar to 0, the second and third hit get his health down to 25%. But now the timing of the mage runs out and he hits the fighter and finally takes him down.

The end

The whole fight doesn't require too many keys, only steering and a handful of shortcuts. But in my humble opinion, such a fighting system is something I would adore, since it not only looks very much realistic, but also combines playerskill and characterskill to a whole new level of PvP ... at least in my head. And yeah, I know that dwarves would have a struggle to grab someone to cut his throat, but the grab could look like jumping on the taller one's back. Oh well, all in all just my personal opinion of a good PvP system.

PS: The "^TM" was just a joke, feel free to take them over

[theirah]

My point on spells was that even if the strength of said spells were increased, as you suggested, it would still be a disadvantage to be a mage in a fight. Spells require you to stand still to be cast, something that needs to be changed. How it is you have to know the range of your spell so you can run away from the opponent to the limit of that range just to cast your spell before retreating again.

As for hybrids I don't have a problem with them. I was simply saying that after magic is improved we will most likely see many more of them. While I don't have a problem with them I don't want the game to be overrun by people like them.

Well, casting spells doesnt quite limit them to standing still-they can still walk without breaking the spell

[Duraza]

Well, casting spells doesnt quite limit them to standing still-they can still walk without breaking the spell

have a fighter take the blows while the mage hits it from afar.  standing still while casting is not an issue.

Both are true but the fact is it still remains an issue for one big reason. These are disadvantages to the mage yet there is no disadvantage to the fighter. Yes I can run away and cast a spell and yes I can walk and cast. However while I'm casting the fighter can easily run up and hit me. Even if I walk backwards chances are that the fighter will be able to catch up running. Secondly we have the problem of spell ranges. Some spells require you to be closer to the enemy, a few of them need you to be in touch range. While I'm casting I'll probably die because I have to walk up to the enemy to cast my spell, letting them hit me. When it comes to dueling some people can kill you in a couple of hits and my spell will never go through because I had to walk up to my opponent to cast it. Those with a shorter range just mean that the opponent has a better chance to catch up with me while I'm walking backwards and kill me. And then the fact that some spells are(or at least seem to be) underpowered only further adds to make it seem useless to even try.

In the end its a win for the warrior and still a loss for the mage no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it 

As for your idea of a duel Rongar I must say I rather like it. Not because the mage won but because it sounded to me like a fight I could see myself actually role playing out. Thats another problem with pvp for me. I can't see myself actually trying to run back and forth to hit the opponent in an rp fight so it annoys me to have to do it in the actual pvp system. Of course thats just my personal issue 

[Marqsaynt]

One other thing that came to mind with all the talk about having things effect speed is the idea of different armor classes effecting how quick a person can move. It's seems to only make sense that a person wearing full heavy armor isn't going to be as quick as a person in lighter armor, after all, if the size of a weapon effects the swing speed, why wouldn't the weight of the armor effect one's physical speed? I can see this playing into the tactics of a mage vs. warrior battle and perhaps helping to balance things a bit, especially for a mage facing off against any warrior that prefers the heavier armors.

Another thought this discussion sparked for me is the idea of incorporating some type of block/dodge move (not just random dodges based on weapon/armor levels but, an actual hotkey-able action) for both warriors and mages. For example, the warrior's specific block move could be something like "parry" and based on their weapon skill while a mage's could be a spell that has the same effect but, is based on their magic skill in that particular way. This way, a mage could hopefully have a chance to block the very first charge of a warrior and then hit him with a few quick spells before he can even get another chance to swing. It would have to be a move/spell that occurred pretty much instantly and only lasted for a very brief moment but, I can see it being used effectively by anyone not quite as quick as their opponent. 

[Hatchnet]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread realy trying to decide just how to respond; I think I'll start with a couple of RL combat points...

Running at you oppenent gerneraly ends in you getting skewered;
Your out of controll, off balance, and unable to react properly to changes in the situaion. How to fix this? In my thoughts a "ready stance" from which you can properly charge* and attack your opponent and could be useable from a distance would be best. This would need to be set so that no actual attack attempt is made untill the character is within weapons range of the target; setting mobs not to respond to a ready stance untill the attacker is withing weapons range would also make this viable across the board.


Big weapon owns little weapon almost every time;
Sorry it's true; if I have a great sword and some idiot comes at me with a short sword or a dagger I'm going to cut them down long before they get within their striking distance. Currently in game this is not the case as all melee weapons apear to have the same range. The fix for this is a simple one though (in theory at least); simply implement a maximum and minimum range for each type of weapon. For example about 2 1/2 and 0 feet for a dagger, about 7 and 3 feet for a claymore and so on. This would add a much greater degree of depth and realism to dueling (not to mention be far more in character) than simply running at your opponent and trying to hit attack at the right time.

*Contrary to what Hollywood would have you belive you are not running reclesly twords your opponent when you charge them. No a charge is much more controlled than an open run; it should still lower your defence a little bit when you do so though.

[Rongar Elani]

One other thing that came to mind with all the talk about having things effect speed is the idea of different armor classes effecting how quick a person can move. It's seems to only make sense that a person wearing full heavy armor isn't going to be as quick as a person in lighter armor, after all, if the size of a weapon effects the swing speed, why wouldn't the weight of the armor effect one's physical speed? I can see this playing into the tactics of a mage vs. warrior battle and perhaps helping to balance things a bit, especially for a mage facing off against any warrior that prefers the heavier armors.

Yes and no...

The armor class itself shouldn't have an impact on your movement speed, rather on your AGI. What really should have an impact though, is the total weight you are carrying. Since heavy armor is - like the name presumes - quite some heavy, it will be a moderate disadvantage when it comes to weight, while the disadvantage is with the light armor, when it comes to protection. However, someone wearing light armor but packed with stuff shouldn't move faster than someone wearing heavy armor but nothing else in his pockets.

[Rongar Elani]

Well, the bug itself is fixed now. Everything seems to be how it was before.

I also noticed one of my thoughts has found its way into the game.

1) Different spell casting speeds, depending on the powerslider.

That's neat, although I can't say if that effect was implemented way before I had the thought. At least I never noticed it before. Anyways, I think this thread has partially fulfilled its purpose, but I also think that more people should contribute to the discussion on how to better PvP&combat, since that is actually what Marqsaynt was aiming for.

First off, I am hoping this can be a constructive topic, no flaming, or "teh devs are trying to kill dueling!!111" comments please. I know this has been a hot topic in the past but, I am more interested in ideas on how both of these features (PvP dueling and Anti-Luring) can be improved and other rational comments and not hearing someone venting their frustrations about the new systems; there is a reason this thread is not in the complaint department section.

Make sure you've read some of the other threads in the wishlist though, or else I see your posts getting deleted.