Author Topic: some music.  (Read 4925 times)

bbum

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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2003, 03:54:00 am »
ray tracing is not the ONLY way to create realistic shadows and reflection effects. I find d-map shadows much more intuitive, look at the difference in options.http://bbum.netfirms.com/options.JPG

\"ambient light, diffuse light, reflection, refraction, internal refraction, highlights, color changes, diffusion maps, bump maps, displacement maps, environment maps\" I can use all of those effects without any ray tracing.

\"NOTHING uses curves\" thats not true, nurbs surfaces use curves, and \'curves\' is sometimes used as a word instead of nurbs. when making a nurbs surface you can draw something in curves and convert it into nurbs. - http://bbum.netfirms.com/cup-revolve.jpg

you have to copy/paste to see pic.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2003, 03:57:40 am by bbum »

boonet

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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2003, 10:51:21 am »
Quote
ray tracing is not the ONLY way to create realistic shadows and reflection effects

No, it\'s not the only way, but it\'s the most accurate, since it doesn\'t rely on tricks to fake the final effect (like reflection mapping does, in example), but instead calculates a more physically-correct light path.

Using refmapping to fake reflections or shadowmaps to have fast soft shadows are common things when dealing with prerendered imagery, specially in animation, when every per-frame rendering time reduction is welcome.

When accuracy is more important than speed, then you start using raytracing as a tool of choice. Don\'t think raytracing is limited to the classical shadow /reflection /refraction effects: it comes handy whenever you need to be able to take samples around your scene in a wider way (using in example different BRDFs) and you don\'t need to limit yourself only to the points you are directly projecting on screen. Correct blurred reflection, ambient occlusion, correct translucency are just examples.

There seems to be some confusion about the \'nothing uses curves\' sentence. Yes, the modeling software can use curves and surfaces instead of polygons: I am referring to the mathematical representation of your object if you are in example creating a nurbs model.
But for efficiency\'s sake this mathematical representation has to be later converted into something else in order to be represented on a screen: the method of choice usually consists in approximating it with a polygon mesh, which is tasselated more densely in accordance to how much you must get close to the theorical surface representation.
So bbum, yes, you are modeling your glass with a revolved nurbs surface, but what you see is just a mesh approximating your model (you\'re in maya, so hitting 1-2-3 will show you different degrees of approximation).

I will not say it\'s impossible to directly deal with surfaces during the rendering process: it\'s just less efficient at the end.

Quote
high-quality ray-tracers (for movies), like POV-RAY uses CSG - Composite Solid Geometry (I hope CSG is the abbrev. of this).

Ahem, sorry, but POV-RAY, with all the respect I have for a product that was the first renderer I had in my hands quite a few years ago, s not exactly a movie-quality raytracer. Main issue: efficiency. You just can\'t deal movie-quality frames with its speed and memory management. A better example of raytracer would have been Mental Ray, but it also tasselates surfaces at the end. Other famous renderers, like PRMAN,  while offering superior-quality surface representation and displacement effects, just rely on a different tasselation method, called micropolygon tasselation (or dicing).

This is all for now.
b

Vengeance

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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2003, 09:26:12 pm »
Boonet, I\'m not sure what you just said... but YOU RULE!  :-)

- Venge

bbum

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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2003, 01:20:45 am »
hmm i think ill take a closer look at ray tracing effects...

 ---about making a polygon mesh to control or animate detailed surfaces, thats awsome, i just went over that yesterday.

and im not sure what you mean by that revolved cup being a mesh aproximate, i think pressing \"3\" is the form it will come out as when rendered, and \'2\' and \'1\' are there to help preformance, althought it doesnt really help that much, a polygon mesh is much more efficent.

but the main point i was trying to get across is there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality
« Last Edit: June 10, 2003, 06:53:36 am by bbum »

boonet

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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2003, 11:08:45 am »
bbum
when you press 1,2,3 you are just tasselating your mesh more densely in your viewports. It has no relation at all with what you will render: that option is just there to help you maintain interactive framerates when working around more and more complex scenes or to have an approximated but better pre-render idea of how your rendered object will look when rendered. \'3\' is not conceptually different from \'1\' and \'2\' : it just creates a denser mesh, which is, in parenthesis, generally not detailed as the rendermesh. To veryfiy the difference, go in shaded mode+wireframe over shaded, select an object and after a ctrl-A check the checkbox that shows the render tasselation. You will see how much more detailed the render mesh is when compared to the viewport shaded mesh. Of course you can make it even coarser by playing with the tasselation attributes, but this is not the point of the discussion.

Quote
there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality


Well, I can hardly disagree with this ;-)

elminster

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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2003, 12:41:44 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by bbum
ray tracing IS NOT IN EVERY IMAGE i dont know what your talkinb about elminster, its obvious ray tracing only deals with light by reading that website.

And may I ask you, my dear friend, what do you see with your eyes? Let me answer: ONLY LIGHT!

About curves and approximation: it is up to an algorithm in the engine (or somewhere) to approximate curves. It depends on the algorithm, how accurate the approximation is.

I suggest you, bbum, to read PeregrineBF\'s and especially boonet\'s posts carefully, as they are both home in this area.

Quote
Originally posted by bbum
but ray tracing is not in every scene, every rendered image...

Again, I can only say: learn some biology, then tell me what do your EYES sense...

Quote
Originally posted by bbum
there is somthing besides polygons, and that ray tracing isnt in every image and doesnt define cg quality
Quote

Well, indeed. What I see on my monitor, usually doesn\'t contain ray-tracing. Nor the pictures, painted by Van Gogh. :)

--
Greetings,
E.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2003, 12:45:58 pm by elminster »

bbum

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« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2003, 12:41:59 am »
is this what your saying elminster? light is in everything, and since ray tracing only deals with light, ray tracing is everywhere or somthing? is that how you figure ray tracing is in every image? i dont get it.

boonet: im now wondering how to see the true form of my nurbs surface in the pre renderer haha. although its never caused a problem for me, it seems like a serious isue all the sudden.

and did you know you can set your own \'1\' \'2\' \'3\' values in the toolbar at any density you want? i sure didnt, but thats a pretty awsome feature.

---p.s. do you use 3dsmax as well as maya?? thats alot of knowledge... i have a hard time finding certain tools in 3dsmax that i already know in maya, so i just try to stick with maya.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2003, 12:44:21 am by bbum »

boonet

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« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2003, 10:53:10 am »
Huhm... if the point is about what your eyes really see, then saying everything is raytracing is a nice approximation. But reality is even more than this, just think about diffraction and interference, which are not usually taken into consideration within computergraphics.

Conversely, when talking about CG, raytracing is just one technique to render an image, but not the only one. The other, absolutely popular for its speed, is the scanline rendering.
So it\'s totally possible to create rendered imagery without raytracing.
I must admit that modern renderers use an hybrid approach, using scanline rendering until secondary rays are needed, and switching to raytracing only on objects that need it.
But still, depending on your scene setup, you may easily avoid to use raytracing.


Bbum: heheh yes, I had seen that option for the 123 keys; actually there are even some more exotic things you can do when playing with the displaySmoothness command (not that I would really like to do them ;-) )

I use MAX exclusively to finalize PS stuff that I did in Maya, since I really hate MAX ;-) Please, no flame war on this: it\'s just a personal preference based on how productive and comfortable I am when using the 2 different packages.
What to say: I\'d suggest you to stick with Maya, since its knowledge has a higher market value if you plan to do CG professionally.

bbum

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« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2003, 11:22:14 am »
hey man, i didnt know you used maya, i thought you used 3dsm, thats awsome, i thought i was the only one who thought maya was the future, not many in the gamming scene use it.

boonet

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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2003, 01:28:40 am »
hehe yes, I use Maya everyday... :)
Hey, look that Maya is one of the most diffuse 3D softwares around, and many games have been and are being developed using it. Nvidia also released some plugins to test, use and create CG shaders within Maya, so this tells something about Maya\'s role ;-)

GeorgeD

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2003, 10:36:43 pm »
And now for something completely different...

Whoa.
This started as a musical related thread and now I can\'t understand a word of it. :) Seems like a computer graphic is simply not my cup of tea.
Anyway, if you are still interested in music, check this:
http://george.seven.cz/music/lament.mp3
Feedback very appreciated.
Music/sound department

bbum

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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2003, 10:08:18 am »
Hey man, is that yours? youve got a real talent, i mean holy shit, hook yourself up with the ps devs or somthing. make some more and get a resume together? send it around

ive never tried to make anything calm like that, and not in umm... like loop form, i guess... i dont know to much about music k? mehhhhh some day ill try it.

edits- hey do you have any more?? respond!!!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2003, 07:44:04 am by bbum »