Wings for Diaboli and other suggestions for them

[Lordbug]

..none of it is \'reqired\', all the stats help together, some just help more so.

The mental stat of a way is required for high realm spells.
Realm 1 spells are very weak and basicly don\'t need many requirements but avaliable mana and Skill of that way above 0 (full theoretical train when in 0)

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Bnm85

Originally posted by Seytra
Well, 1st, the Diaboli are maybe a bit like demons, but certainly not intended to be an exact copy.

Well, giving them wings would not make them an exact copy. That\'s what stats are for.

Obviously I failed to bring accross the intended meaning: I wasn\'t talking about it making them a copy of the Klyros, but a copy of the demons in terran mythology.

Originally posted by Bnm85

As you can see, you get the double damage for diaboil but compensation in the extra saving throw vs. elelental spells which will be the most common types, like freeze and flame burst. I\'m not sure how summon missile will fit in, though.

I\'m not so sure it\'s such a compensation. For example, if I\'m fighting a Diaboli in PvP, I simply won\'t set myself up as an elemental spell fighter/mage whatever. I\'ll make sure I get blessed and/or magical items to fight against them. What will a Diaboli do against Klyros with blessed/magical items/weapons/spells etc? Klyros\' light armor may not be such a huge deal if they\'re dealing double-damage on Diaboli. Just IMO.

I\'m so not talking about PvP. IMNSHO, PvP is no way near importance. At best, it is supplemental to roleplay. Therefore, combat will happen as PvE mostly, and thus there won\'t be anything gearing up for them specifically.

Originally posted by Bnm85

They aren\'t terrbbly good as mages, either. That leaves crafters, merchants, scouts, explorers and maybe rogues.

How so? It doesn\'t state that they have any limitations on training every skill to the max. And they\'re good in elemental ways. So, what\'s stopping them from developing everything a mage can have to the max, even if it does take longer than for some other race? I mean, in the end, it\'s archievable.

This is true, but it can easily be that there will, while not set limits, be higher learning costs, like for example in ROE. Even without, a mage of a set power will be a lot more readily attainable by use of a better suited race.

Originally posted by Bnm85
Yes, I do. :D But that\'s just personal preference. I\'m all for difference appearances and such but it\'s hard for me to take a walking humanoid animal seriously in games. I\'d prefer variations in body type, facial expressions, age, height, skin color, ears (pointy and such). The whole Enki thing reminds me too much of an adult furry fantasy thing, which I never found particulary appealing. But I know that others like it, and I don\'t want to step on their toes because of it, so I have no problem with them running around. I just wouldn\'t use one for myself.

However, we cannot have such radically different faces on one race. It\'s either all human-like, or all non-human-like. Maybe a little more to the extremes, but you don\'t get humans who look perfectly like apes IRL, too. Though the restrictions can be a little less strict dur to the fantasy-ish setting and maybe, just maybe, the races have higher face variation by nature than humans IRL.
However, I cannot see why there would be any problem taking non-humans seriously.

Originally posted by Bnm85

@ Bnm85: As for the portal / race thing: did you read the setting?

Yes but as I stated in my previous reply, you misunderstand. I meant, why is that idea still alive considering the FAQ\'s statement about no additional player races?

It\'s a zombie, by far not alive. It\'s the only concievable way any additional race might ever get into PS, provided that somehow / some day Talad will change his mind.

Originally posted by Bnm85

There is no reason to put all advantages into one race, which looks like you are trying to get the Diaboli to be.

Well, your conclusion is wrong. I was not trying to give Diaboli more advantages over other races. I wanted to see more than a single race having wings, especially because it suits Diaboli a lot.

As I said, they already are rather similar to conventional demons so making them even more similar would be bad, both due to reduced originalily and because it would immediately trigger the \"We already have demons from earth-hell, so why can\'t we have angels from earth-heaven, too?\" argument. I want neither demons nor angels in PS, they\'re incredibly stale.

Originally posted by Bnm85
At the moment though, I see Diaboli as having slightly more disadvantages than others, simply because one can make a special setup in PvP against Diaboli, since they\'re always vulnerable to blessed/magical weapons. Whereas some other races can be more unpredictable and more of a guess on how to set yourself up when fighting them. And before anyone says, \"well, now you want them to not suffer double-damage and still keep all the advantages\", no, it\'s not what I\'m saying at all. I\'m saying that because, obviously, that disadvantage is here to stay, it might be ok to add something a little extra as a counter. Such as devestating unholy weapons/spells, or some sort of blessed damage reducer.

I am perfectly sure there will be both. There surely will be unholy weapons, since there alwways are \"blessings\" of the good and the evil side. Also, there will be spells geared towards reducing effects of \"blessed\" weapons, for both sides. It\'s standard, because ont implies the other, really.
And, as I said, there is no importance to PvP, so there\'s no real problem IMO.

[Bnm85]

Originally posted by Seytra
Obviously I failed to bring accross the intended meaning: I wasn\'t talking about it making them a copy of the Klyros, but a copy of the demons in terran mythology.

No, I know exactly what you meant. And giving them wings would not make them a copy. Take a winged demon type of race in various games and see if they behave and perform in an exact same way, or even if they look exactly the same. Stats are also what would distinguish them from your \"typical\" winged demon race. We already have Humans and Dwarfs in the game. I don\'t see you complaining about them being an \"exact copy\", which would definitely qualify. Besides, why are we still talking about wings? I think it\'s been made pretty clear that the races are staying the same as devs already made them to be.

I\'m so not talking about PvP. IMNSHO, PvP is no way near importance. At best, it is supplemental to roleplay. Therefore, combat will happen as PvE mostly, and thus there won\'t be anything gearing up for them specifically.

It is important for those who do PvP. Otherwise, it would not have been included in this game at all. Besides, even if we\'re not talking about PvP, coming against holy mobs of some sort would guarantee a double-damage against Diaboli, while many other races can change their setup around to compensate, IMO.

This is true, but it can easily be that there will, while not set limits, be higher learning costs, like for example in ROE. Even without, a mage of a set power will be a lot more readily attainable by use of a better suited race.

Yes but the point is \"impossible vs archievable\". Although after reading many older posts, some people suggested that Klyros don\'t have bonuses in elemental ways in a magic sense but rather they\'re good in those environments. Meaning that it simply shows that they can walk, swim, and \"fly\" (glide). Still, they don\'t have any disadvantages in them either when it comes to magic.

However, we cannot have such radically different faces on one race. It\'s either all human-like, or all non-human-like. Maybe a little more to the extremes, but you don\'t get humans who look perfectly like apes IRL, too. Though the restrictions can be a little less strict dur to the fantasy-ish setting and maybe, just maybe, the races have higher face variation by nature than humans IRL.However, I cannot see why there would be any problem taking non-humans seriously.

To clarify, I\'d rather they didn\'t look like cats at all. I\'d rather it was more of a humanoid race but with the same or similar stats as Enkis. But to set the differences, I\'d rather see big variations in height, age, size, skin color, facial expressions, hair styles etc. As for taking them seriously, it\'s like talking to a real cat. Just my personal preference. I realize that some people have no problem with it. However, even in a lot of fan art drawings, you see people draw Enkis more like humans - longer hair for females, lipstick, highlights, more human female like bodies etc. Perhaps it will change in the future where you can select such an appearance for Enkis, since right now their faces simply look like real cats. Still, even with the variations, they\'re not terribly appealing to me. Same with Klyros.

It\'s a zombie, by far not alive. It\'s the only concievable way any additional race might ever get into PS, provided that somehow / some day Talad will change his mind.

Well, by the same token, Kran might start wearing pink bikinis, if Talad changes his mind. There\'s very little hope, basically, considering it\'s actually been addressed in the FAQ. Also, new races can be created by mixing two or more of the existing races.

As I said, they already are rather similar to conventional demons so making them even more similar would be bad, both due to reduced originalily and because it would immediately trigger the \"We already have demons from earth-hell, so why can\'t we have angels from earth-heaven, too?\" argument. I want neither demons nor angels in PS, they\'re incredibly stale.

And having typical humans is not conventional? How many MMORPGs have a human race? How many have a red demon like race with wings that is actually a playable race? So what if someone asks for angels? A dev can either include them or say no. The difference is that Diaboli are already in the game.

I am perfectly sure there will be both. There surely will be unholy weapons, since there alwways are \"blessings\" of the good and the evil side. Also, there will be spells geared towards reducing effects of \"blessed\" weapons, for both sides. It\'s standard, because ont implies the other, really.
And, as I said, there is no importance to PvP, so there\'s no real problem IMO.

I wouldn\'t be so sure about \"standards\" in this game, since it\'s supposedly trying to move away from them. But we will see. Also, PvP may not be important to you personally but it may be important to those who like it. It may not be a priority initially but eventually it\'s unavoidable. Don\'t think that everyone has the same interests as you.

[hramrach]

To clarify, I\'d rather they didn\'t look like cats at all. I\'d rather it was more of a humanoid race but with the same or similar stats as Enkis. But to set the differences, I\'d rather see big variations in height, age, size, skin color, facial expressions, hair styles etc. As for taking them seriously, it\'s like talking to a real cat. Just my personal preference. I realize that some people have no problem with it. However, even in a lot of fan art drawings, you see people draw Enkis more like humans - longer hair for females, lipstick, highlights, more human female like bodies etc. Perhaps it will change in the future where you can select such an appearance for Enkis, since right now their faces simply look like real cats. Still, even with the variations, they\'re not terribly appealing to me. Same with Klyros.

Shapist! :evil: Shapist!

Well, I like cats as they are IRL and I do like Enkis in PS.

And although IRL talking to things that officially do not exist or that are unlikely to be intelligent enough to understand is frowned upon we shouldn\'t limit ourselves in PS. And Enkis in PS are intelligent.

)

P.S. we already do that anyway when trying to talk to NPCs

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Bnm85
However, even in a lot of fan art drawings, you see people draw Enkis more like humans - longer hair for females, lipstick, highlights, more human female like bodies etc. Perhaps it will change in the future where you can select such an appearance for Enkis, since right now their faces simply look like real cats.

It won\'t change, actually. This has been stated  by Acraig :) We can pout and wish it were otherwise, but again, a final word is a final word. Artistic liberty, however, has nothing to do with how players want the Enki models to appear. Fan art pictures are drawn with weapons that will never be in PS, costumes, settings, accessories, etc. Hair length and style is just another artistic trait that is recognized as such. And frankly I have never liked the drawings that portrayed Enki females with human faces - to me, the images were \"off.\" Eh :)

[fken]

Originally posted by Karyuu
The no-additional-races statement is found within the FAQ on the main site

Im not sure the devs wont add others races... I think the FAQ are saying they dont want to add more races but as long as it will be possible to create another race there is a possibility... but it will be a secondary objective... so its true : the chance to see a 13th race is very very small...

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a diaboli with wings lol what an odd idea !

Its already strange to see the dermorian and the diaboli can reproduce themselves together...
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if you still want a diaboli with wings you can try a putch of Talad and acraig ...  

[Bnm85]

Originally posted by hramrach

Shapist! :evil: Shapist!

Well, I like cats as they are IRL and I do like Enkis in PS.

And although IRL talking to things that officially do not exist or that are unlikely to be intelligent enough to understand is frowned upon we shouldn\'t limit ourselves in PS. And Enkis in PS are intelligent.

)

P.S. we already do that anyway when trying to talk to NPCs

I like cats IRL too but it\'s still hard to take them seriously in game, even with humanoid bodies. Besides, PS is trying to be original with the races, is it not? Well, Enkidukai are nothing new. Just look at the \"Kerra\" race of Everquest 2:

http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#racesKerra

Not a huge difference, IMO. Sure, they\'re based on a different type of felines but felines nonetheless.

Originally posted by  Karyuu
It won\'t change, actually. This has been stated by Acraig We can pout and wish it were otherwise, but again, a final word is a final word. Artistic liberty, however, has nothing to do with how players want the Enki models to appear. Fan art pictures are drawn with weapons that will never be in PS, costumes, settings, accessories, etc. Hair length and style is just another artistic trait that is recognized as such. And frankly I have never liked the drawings that portrayed Enki females with human faces - to me, the images were \"off.\" Eh

Well, I have never come across such statement. But if that is so, then it makes Enkis even less attractive to me. As for your artistic libery explanation, that didn\'t make sense to me. If anything, such freedom allows people to create their own unique vision of this race. Given the opportunity, I\'m sure everyone would make their Enkidukai char as unique as possible. I doubt, for example, that Moogie will ever look as cute in the game as on one of the drawings with long white hair/fur, pink lipstick etc. Unless the devs make a custom model/skin just for her. Also, there\'s a HUGE difference between a face and a sword when it comes to artistic liberty.

Originally posted by  fken

a diaboli with wings lol what an odd idea !

Its already strange to see the dermorian and the diaboli can reproduce themselves together...
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if you still want a diaboli with wings you can try a putch of Talad and acraig ...

With all the oddities in this game/world already, I\'d say this would qualify as the least of the odd things. Anyway, as I already said, it seems unlikely that the devs will change it, so I won\'t persue that suggestion.

[hramrach]

Well, if you take Moogie as an example she is very cat-like on the drawings, at least on the ones I saw. Though she does have something like long hair or mane. But I do not like how hair looks in PS so it is only good Enki do not have it

Anyway that\'s not the point. Although different poeple may have different ideas how Enki could look there must be one model in the game. And it should be more cat-like rather than less as it gives you the choive to play a differently looing character. If they were just people with a different name they could as well not exist at all.


I do not understand how you cannot take Enki seriously. Do you mean you cannot take seriously any being that does not have a human face?
For one, if ETs landed in front of you, you would not take them seriously if they did not have human faces?
(you know, the fact we are here pretty much proves there can be ETs, and it is not yet proven that it is impossible or at least very unlikely to meet them, and there is no reason they should look like we do)

And you know that Enki are played by humans, just like any other character. You can even look at them as humans wearing a mask if you wish. Though IRL wearing a mask would be considered silly (or takling to cats, or thinking that cats talk to you), does that mean you cannot ever take seroisly anybody wearing a mask, even in a fantasy game?

I just do not get this. It sounds crazy ..err.. normal..

[Bnm85]

Originally posted by hramrach
Well, if you take Moogie as an example she is very cat-like on the drawings, at least on the ones I saw. Though she does have something like long hair or mane. But I do not like how hair looks in PS so it is only good Enki do not have it

Just because the \"hair\" currently doesn\'t look great in PS, doesn\'t mean it can\'t. I surely hope that in time all the player models will be redone because right now they leave quite a lot to be desired.

Anyway that\'s not the point. Although different poeple may have different ideas how Enki could look there must be one model in the game. And it should be more cat-like rather than less as it gives you the choive to play a differently looing character. If they were just people with a different name they could as well not exist at all.

It doesn\'t have to look like a cat to look different. Besides, those who pick Enki model will still look like every other Enki, so a lot of variation (including hair) is the answer to looking relatively unique.

I do not understand how you cannot take Enki seriously. Do you mean you cannot take seriously any being that does not have a human face?

No, I mean I cannot take a being that looks like a cat in real life seriously. Cats aren\'t some imagined creatures (or ETs), they do exist. And unless you got serious mental problems, you won\'t exactly be having a serious conversation with a cat IRL, lol. The exception being, \"Who\'s a pretty cat, who\'s a pretty cat!\" *pet pet*

For one, if ETs landed in front of you, you would not take them seriously if they did not have human faces?
(you know, the fact we are here pretty much proves there can be ETs, and it is not yet proven that it is impossible or at least very unlikely to meet them, and there is no reason they should look like we do)

LoL, if ETs landed in front of me, taking them seriously and holding a conversation would be the last thing on my mind. But if it eventually came to it, and by some amazing coincidence they\'d happen to look like Enkis, I might take them seriously. The point is that we already have cats in reality, so psychologically a human mind associates anything cat-like with cats, as opposed to a billion of \"what ifs\" on what aliens might look like. For all I know they could look like nothing we\'ve ever seen before or just like us.

And you know that Enki are played by humans, just like any other character. You can even look at them as humans wearing a mask if you wish. Though IRL wearing a mask would be considered silly (or takling to cats, or thinking that cats talk to you), does that mean you cannot ever take seroisly anybody wearing a mask, even in a fantasy game?

It\'s not exactly a \"mask\". They\'re represented as a race in the game. So, if I am to roleplay, they\'re supposed to be viewed as a race and not \"masked people\", are they not? Otherwise, if I always have to remind myself that they\'re \"not really cats\", it\'s not exactly roleplaying, is it? Just IMO.

I just do not get this. It sounds crazy ..err.. normal..

And talking to cats seriously isn\'t crazy? lol

Anyway, I found this thread with similar requests for human-like hair for Enkis, and posters like Moogie, Cyl, Dragonfire999 and several others want it. Take a look at it here to see my point better:

http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=16420&boardid=13&sid=8bc0c24750c8dfa6fbe02d1c35d94340

[Moogie]

Enkidukai will never have human-like hair, according to Talad. It remains to be seen whether we\'ll have tufts or manes or anything like that to fill the void of baldness. :/

[hramrach]

Originally posted by Bnm85

And you know that Enki are played by humans, just like any other character. You can even look at them as humans wearing a mask if you wish. Though IRL wearing a mask would be considered silly (or takling to cats, or thinking that cats talk to you), does that mean you cannot ever take seroisly anybody wearing a mask, even in a fantasy game?

It\'s not exactly a \"mask\". They\'re represented as a race in the game. So, if I am to roleplay, they\'re supposed to be viewed as a race and not \"masked people\", are they not? Otherwise, if I always have to remind myself that they\'re \"not really cats\", it\'s not exactly roleplaying, is it? Just IMO.

Sure, but they aren\'t cats either. The fact they look similar to how cats look IRL does not mean they are cats. And even if they looked exactly like cats why they can\'t be intelligent in PS?
That\'s a fantasy game. Intelligent and talking cats are possible. You could learn a spell that turns you into something that looks just like a normal cat. Or whatever else. Yliakum is a different place than Earth.

And after all people also look similar to apes. That does not mean you think of them as apes, does it?

Edit: as for roleplaying: if you do not take Enkis seroiusly it is also not a good roleplaying in a world where Enkis do exist. Unless you want to play a lunatic/shapist/racist character.

[Bnm85]

Originally posted by hramrach
Sure, but they aren\'t cats either. The fact they look similar to how cats look IRL does not mean they are cats. And even if they looked exactly like cats why they can\'t be intelligent in PS?
That\'s a fantasy game. Intelligent and talking cats are possible. You could learn a spell that turns you into something that looks just like a normal cat. Or whatever else. Yliakum is a different place than Earth.

And after all people also look similar to apes. That does not mean you think of them as apes, does it?

People don\'t look that similar to apes. People are also capable of holding an intelligent conversation about various topics, such as art or politics. Cats are not. Besides, there\'s a difference between looking similar to something and having an exact cat\'s head \"glued\" to a modified cat\'s body. Being a fantasy, does not mean that cats are part of everyone\'s fantasy. Speaking of fantasy, a human-like hair shouldn\'t be classified as \"odd\". After all, it\'s a fantasy, right?

As far as a spell that turns you into a cat goes, that\'s completely different. That\'s actually cool and I would like that. If you study ancient history, you\'ll find that many warriors liked to depict various animals on their armor and clothing. Many of those were felines, such as leopards, lions, panthers, tigers and so on. Now, imagine that if you had a power to permanently turn those warriors into an Enki-like race. Do you think they\'d wholeheartedly agree? What would happen when they came home to make love to their wives? Ewww... I don\'t think that would fly very well. On the other hand, if you told them you could make them temporary turn into felines just for the battle and back into humans when it was over, I\'m sure they would be extremely excited. Point is - just because animals are often represented as powerful warriors in human fantasy, doesn\'t mean that people would permanently like to become such creatures. Turning into them for a limited time, on the other hand, would be extremely cool.

[wolfrunner]

I realy dont like the idea for deiboli to have wings. i mean the lizard thing has wings and it just seems it could be over doing it.

[hramrach]

But I do not understand what is the difference between turning a warrior into feline creature temporarily, permanently, or being one from the very birth - viewing it from the point of being able to talk to them and expect sensible reaction.

[Bnm85]

Originally posted by wolfrunner
I realy dont like the idea for deiboli to have wings. i mean the lizard thing has wings and it just seems it could be over doing it.

I really do like the idea. But if you actually read the following replies, the issue has been closed by me and others in agreement that it doesn\'t matter what we want, since devs have a clear position on not modifying or adding any additional races. If Enkis can\'t even get a simple head hair, you can forget about the wings for Diaboli.

Originally posted by hramrach
But I do not understand what is the difference between turning a warrior into feline creature temporarily, permanently, or being one from the very birth - viewing it from the point of being able to talk to them and expect sensible reaction.

To me it\'s the difference between a human (or human-ish) being with extremely cool ability to turn into various forms and a bipedal cat, with the latter being taken less seriously because it has a strong resemblance to a real cat or as someone put it in another thread - a house cat. Rather than convincing me that it\'s an evolved cat-people race, it simply feels like a regular feline walking on two legs. Even the concept art drawing on the official Races page shows Enkidukai\'s legs more like human legs, and yet in the game they\'re just like real cat\'s. Even those fan art drawings that show long claws on Enki\'s feet, still draw their feet more human-like than cat-like. You\'ll notice that I\'ve used \"IMO\" quite a few times in my replies regarding this, so the fact that you disagree is perfectly fine. We don\'t have to convince one another. Knowing devs\' position on the races, it would probably be a waste of time to try anyway.