Author Topic: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD  (Read 905 times)

minetus

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races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« on: June 25, 2006, 04:07:05 pm »
first, this idea might not fit into the planeshift world/system, but anyways i would like to share it.

1: main idea, current race system is limited, the idea would be to create tribes within yiliakum and further

when it gets there, were each tribe race consists:
PC's(Player characters), NPC's(Non Player Characters). (duh)
this would make all races within Yiliakum playable including the not so intellegent races besides the 12 ones

existing right now, giving a wider choice of roleplay, and a much better improvement of game development i

tink
.
2: race structure: each race would be divided by tribes(guild towns/areas) ruled by one master guild.
3: race politics: alliances, trade alliances, embargos, war etc could be achieved between diferent guild race

tribes politic character types(translator skills, charismatic skills, etc) this alliances would be

overulled(but not broken, would gain a neutral or war stance but names, and contact would still be possible,

opening a possibilaty for renegades) by the master tribes race alliences reinforcing RP.

ill try to indeep this idea a lill further later, xD

Seytra

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 04:51:33 pm »
1) More races has been discussed repeatedly before.

2) No. No, no, no. Not only are you proposing to bin the entire PS background of Yliakum being a melting pot of races with no (or only exceptionally few) racism, but also are you proposing to bin the political system background of PS.

So you are quite right in saying that it doesn't fit into PS.

It is obvious that there will be guild-based conflicts, the usual struggle for power, both within a city as well as between cities, complete with alliances and such (though, for 2), translators won't be required, but code-breakers might). That might even be fun occasionally. However, the amount of race-based guilds in PS ATM is unrealistically high (and justifiable only in few cases), and thus 99.999% of conflicts will be for reasons other than racism.

Additionally, as can be seen in Ojaveda, there will, at least in some races, be tribes or similar structures. These might occasionally struggle for dominance over the other tribes of their race, too, though that'll likely be more a political game than a simple guild war.

Even within the current system, there can be renegades, traitors, etc., you just need to RP instead of limiting yourself to what the game mechanics currently are able to provide. (You can, for example, fight your own side in a guild war by using the normal duelling system on them. That'll, obviously, only work if both are reasonybly good RPers, buth otherwise you'd not create any RP, but OOC clashes, anyway, so there'd be no point.)

Edit: minor change
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 04:57:00 pm by Seytra »

Zan

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 04:53:29 pm »
Ehh I don't want to come over as stupid here but ...

I'm having a little trouble seeing the difference between what you call tribes and what already exists in the game as guilds ??? As for guilds owning towns and having a political system .. it's either been discussed or already possible.

Or are you saying we should be able to create a Tefusang character or a Rat character as well?
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Seytra

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 05:02:45 pm »
Ehh I don't want to come over as stupid here but ...

I'm having a little trouble seeing the difference between what you call tribes and what already exists in the game as guilds ???
Well, fact is that the guild system is meant for guilds, not for tribes or the highschool choir or your buddies. IIRC, a better system, that has appropricte choices for that, is being planned, if not being worked on already. It's pretty unrealistic to not be able to belong to a clan, some buddy groups, a political faction, a religious organisation or two, and a true guild, not even accounting for honorary membership in multiple clans.
Or are you saying we should be able to create a Tefusang character or a Rat character as well?
That, too. Or probably referring to Gobbles, given that there is one single somewhat intelligent Gobble ingame.
Edit: the fact that they do use a language of their own, even a limited one, might be reason enough to think of the potential of having one or two of them as PCs. However, this is something that should by no means be an universal thing and as such does not fall within the race system at all.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 05:07:06 pm by Seytra »

minetus

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 06:57:51 pm »
1) More races has been discussed repeatedly before.

2) No. No, no, no. Not only are you proposing to bin the entire PS background of Yliakum being a melting pot of races with no (or only exceptionally few) racism, but also are you proposing to bin the political system background of PS.

So you are quite right in saying that it doesn't fit into PS.

It is obvious that there will be guild-based conflicts, the usual struggle for power, both within a city as well as between cities, complete with alliances and such (though, for 2), translators won't be required, but code-breakers might). That might even be fun occasionally. However, the amount of race-based guilds in PS ATM is unrealistically high (and justifiable only in few cases), and thus 99.999% of conflicts will be for reasons other than racism.

Additionally, as can be seen in Ojaveda, there will, at least in some races, be tribes or similar structures. These might occasionally struggle for dominance over the other tribes of their race, too, though that'll likely be more a political game than a simple guild war.

Even within the current system, there can be renegades, traitors, etc., you just need to RP instead of limiting yourself to what the game mechanics currently are able to provide. (You can, for example, fight your own side in a guild war by using the normal duelling system on them. That'll, obviously, only work if both are reasonybly good RPers, buth otherwise you'd not create any RP, but OOC clashes, anyway, so there'd be no point.)

Edit: minor change
im not asking for more races, but trying to start a discussion about a system of races, and possibly a better way to aproach it.
i dont see how am i proposing a bin on any of those things, what i described are just basics and certainly need to be overlook and find aproachable ways.
why no translators? every race has its own writing and language why not? this would definetly set for alot of RP actions making specific characters that would be playing the roles of politics within their system removing the usual figher/mage in games. what im saying is diferent races wont look any diferent then what a "gobble" would look to you now in PS, does that mean when i attack a gobble in game im being racist?
yes infact you can RP whatever ingame rightnow, but wouldnt it be better to have the game mechanics installed to have a better enjoyment? wouldnt you like to RP a lemur with your character actually be a lemur model?

Ehh I don't want to come over as stupid here but ...

I'm having a little trouble seeing the difference between what you call tribes and what already exists in the game as guilds ??? As for guilds owning towns and having a political system .. it's either been discussed or already possible.

Or are you saying we should be able to create a Tefusang character or a Rat character as well?

hierarchies just that, you can have guilds within a tribe wich can be within a faction within a race(or multiple races within a faction)
near intellegent races(gobble,trefusang, the death guardion guy the only ones in game right now i tink) should be playable too, but keeping basic npc's(rat,clacker,etc).

Seytra

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 09:14:36 pm »
im not asking for more races, but trying to start a discussion about a system of races, and possibly a better way to aproach it.
i dont see how am i proposing a bin on any of those things, what i described are just basics and certainly need to be overlook and find aproachable ways.
why no translators? every race has its own writing and language why not?
You are, if you read the historical background that effectively states that "In Yliakum, over the long time it has been populated and due to the lack of geographical separation, the races have mixed and mingled to a very high degree, resulting in the majority of Yliaki being married to a member of a different race.". This means that race is not a factor in determining membership of someone in a faction. Hence, there won't be race-specific factions save a very few exceptions like Enki tribes, but even these will have at least a few other race individuals, just as clans IRL will accept people into the clan by means other than birth.

Youe entire political structure, as well as definition of factions rests on races, while in Yliakum, it does not. Therefore, in order to have your system, the PS system would need to be ditched.

Due to that fact of extreme population mixing, the initial, surely race-specific languages will have been either replaced or at least combined with one universal language which likely incorporates parts of all of the originally separate languages. This is a necessary conclusion from the extreme level of mixing. This therefore means that there are no areas where translators are required, because everyone speaks more or less the same language, independent of race. The worst thing you could get would be local dialects which, however, are, too, not race-dependent, but area-dependant, just like IRL. The original languages would be similar to Latin or dialects today - taught for sake of not completely forgetting them. What is more likely to be needed under these circumstances is not a translator for diplomacy, but an ancient language expert for archaeology and historical and linguistic research.
Yliakum is not a set of different nations, it is one big nation, if you can call it that. Hence, not even national languages exist.

Your system proposes to have a myriad of city-states that struggle for dominance, while the PS system has a hierarchical structure that covers the entire stalactite. Yliakum is ruled by the Octarchs, who have Vigesimi as regional representatives, who in turn will have mayors governing cities.
Hence, your system would require ditching that system in order to be implemented.
this would definetly set for alot of RP actions making specific characters that would be playing the roles of politics within their system removing the usual figher/mage in games.
I very much disagree. I think that your system would limit RP to the comparatively unimaginative "You are a different race than I am, therefore you are to be ruled by my race.".
The current system places emphasis on different aspects, like personality, world view, economy, knowledge, etc., of an individual or organisation, thereby allowing all organisations and individuals to get involved in the big game without forcing them to become race selective. This will create way more diverse RP than a racism-based system.

Just one example: with a racism-based system, an organisation would need to limit itself to the chosen race fo everything it does. The fighter/mage system (which doesn't really exist in PS because there are no character classes) would exist there just as much as in any other system.
With the current system, that organisation could seek to recruit membery based on race-specific (dis)advantages, like a think-tank that's mostly made up of Xacha, a Kran armed transport, etc., pp..
what im saying is diferent races wont look any diferent then what a "gobble" would look to you now in PS, does that mean when i attack a gobble in game im being racist?
Whether you are specicistic or not in that event depends entirely on why you do it. If you do it simply because it is a Gobble and not one of the playable species, then yes. If you do it because the Gobble tries to eat you, then no. Since the gobbles are at least somewhat intelligent, they can be argued to have the right to exist and be treated with the same rights as any other sentient species. Yet, a book in the library states that these not so intelligent but still somewhat intelligent species were mostly driven outside of Yliakum and into hiding in the stone labyrinths or other niche areas. Likely, the reason for that is not true specicism, but the need to keep danger away, and if Gobbles are a threat, then that is not specicism.
yes infact you can RP whatever ingame rightnow, but wouldnt it be better to have the game mechanics installed to have a better enjoyment? wouldnt you like to RP a lemur with your character actually be a lemur model?
Obviously it is always better to have the game mechanics actually support your RP, I never denied that. However, I don't see your posts as a wish for having the game mechanigs better support RPing by the settings, but a wish to have the settings replaced with a different setting that might at first glance look more convenient to you. However, if one thinks about the consequences that would arise from your proposals, it becomes clear that it would actually become less and less RPable. You would, for example, end up with lots of Gobbles that are of average intelligence compared to the other PC species, simply because they cannot be meaningfully RP'd another way over an extended time.

Even worse, once you allow Ulbernauts as PC species, the obvious outcome would be every PL chosing an Ulbernaut, and you'd end up with Ulbers everywhere.
Realism, however, dictates that there will be preciously few exceptions of one or two sufficiently intelligent and motivated members of a non PC species that try to integrate into the Yliakum society, at most.
Hence it is obvious that, while it would clearly support RPing those few exceptions by an experienced and trained RPer, the benefits would be so tiny and the damage so great that it can't be seriously considered.

I am perfectly sure that in time there will be a system in place that allows a high level GM or dev to, if an RPer plays sufficiently well to deserve and be able to properly handle that privilege, create a non PC species char for that RPer. That option, however, will certainly not be high on the todo list, and more likely come as a side-effect of some other change in the implementation.

So obviously the race system is limited for a very good reason, and therefore must remain that way.

Edit: example
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 09:34:00 pm by Seytra »

minetus

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2006, 11:12:29 pm »
you bring good points into the discussion :D
but none unfortunelly brings solutions :(

ill be quit(drunk) now.

go go portugal

Seytra

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 10:56:22 pm »
but none unfortunelly brings solutions :(
The way I see it, there is no need for solutions, because when the current system approaches the state that is planned, it will solve the issues suggested, in the ways I outlined.
The time to reach that point will not be short, but this would not change (except very likely take longer) if PS were to switch to your suggested setting.

minetus

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 11:39:54 pm »
well if no one offers solutions, that time would never happen.
since PS would not evolve without them.

we might be both not understanding each other tho :-\

Seytra

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Re: races,tribes,game interaction, and politics xD
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 12:16:45 am »
well if no one offers solutions, that time would never happen.
since PS would not evolve without them.

we might be both not understanding each other tho :-\
What I am trying to say is that the system you currently see is not what is intended to exist. It is a first step in implementing what is planned. Hence, what is already planned doesn't anymore have the issues you are adressing, while being different from what you proposed. Thus, if PS would now switch to your proposals, all current planning would be lost, and have to be re-done to large extents.

The way I see it, you are trying to make up a political system in order to facilitate RP within such a system. However, a political system already exists, and it will, when finally implemented, facilitate RP within it quite well for all I can see. currently, this system is almost completely invisible ingame, but it still does exist, and will be made more and more visible (and thus usable) ingame over time, including quite a lot of arbitrarily complex diplomatic (including "extended" diplomacy like corruption) relationships and conflicts that any char may choose to indulge in, at any level, or ignore completely, or anything inbetween.