9/11 Pentagon - Plane or Missile?

[SaintNuclear]

A Non-Disclosure Agreement is actually important even for an open source project, especially one that isn\'t totally open, like PS.

The setting, for example. If someone that develops the setting of PS goes and blabbers about it, someone might use it for his own game and copyright it. Same goes with everything else they\'re making.

So even though the game is open-source, they must make sure they\'ll be able to release it, and have it open.

[Levski]

FESFES, you can\'t argue like that.  You need to show proof, sources, pictures, etc.  You can\'t just say, I\'m right, your wrong, therefore you are stupid!

And what exactly did the US government show to us to prove that it was Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon?

Monketh, that image you showed us might have been the fin, or it might have been smoke, I can\'t tell.

I\'m not saying I believe in this, but you *must* take a neutral stance about such things until all facts are known.

[Monketh]

Originally posted by Levski
FESFES, you can\'t argue like that.  You need to show proof, sources, pictures, etc.  You can\'t just say, I\'m right, your wrong, therefore you are stupid!

And what exactly did the US government show to us to prove that it was Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon?

Monketh, that image you showed us might have been the fin, or it might have been smoke, I can\'t tell.

I\'m not saying I believe in this, but you *must* take a neutral stance about such things until all facts are known.

I knew FESFESFESFESFES...FES\'s post would hurt my argument.  I hate it when people on my side say something so unbased and things fall apart...

What does it have to do to prove that?  Why does it have to prove that?  Why should it waste valuable time and resources to show that, huh?

Smoke isn\'t square in real-life.  You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub.  Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.

Is there any way we\'ll ever know all the facts?

[Levski]

Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.

  .  But anyways, smoke can very well look like that in a pixelated image, which might, I accede, be pixelated on purpose.

Btw, Monketh, I am not necesarily against you, it\'s just that I support thinking through something first...  But once I reach a conclusion, it\'s pretty hard to pry me from that position.

Is there any way we\'ll ever know all the facts?

No, but I\'d sure like an administration which doesn\'t deliberately try to hide them from us.  Is the United States a Democracy, or is the government using the people?  For some reason, I tend to think the latter ever since George W. Bush stepped into office.

Now, do you think that September 11th would have happened if Al Gore was in office (and it was his own damn fault he didn\'t let Clinton campaign for him)?  I don\'t.  President Bush just isn\'t on the same caliber as he is/was.  Now, when George W. Bush stepped into office, what did he do?  Nothing visible to the American public.  He struggled for control of the senate, he spent 40% of his time on vacation.  Al Gore had clear goals and he had an advantage over Bush, he just came from the White House.  So what does that do?  It makes him experienced.  And that is all that counts.

So let\'s not argue as to whether or not the Pentagon was hit, because it was.  Would it have been hit, would September 11th have happened, if Al Gore had been elected?  No, I don\'t think so.

Note:  This isn\'t an angry/mad/flame post.  It is simply a discussion post.

[DepthBlade]

You cannot bloodie well try and prove something over the internet like this, you need real time facts and proof not this crap. Conspiracies sometimes are real and other times its made by crazy people who have nothing better to do, sometimes like urban legends ^^ So lets forget about this and wait for the next terrorist attack, so we can talk about that

[|Zidewinder|]

At first the flash movie seemed pretty convincing, but all in all the info on Snopes seems more real to me... For one thing, the flash had a picture of a rather small hole that was supposedly the hole made by the object that collided with the  Pentagon, however Snopes revealed that it wasn\'t the \"main\" hole, but just a smaller hole bored in the building by one of the plane\'s engines.

[Abemore]

All points are addressed in the link below.  Keep in mind this is a 35 page long slideshow presentation, so if you don\'t want to read it all, at least click through to the end and look at all the impressive and descriptive pictures and illustrations.  This research concludes what I have already concluded: there is something they are not telling us.  Those of you who\'ve already dismissed this as a groundless conspiracy theory would be better off taking Levski\'s advice and remaining neutral until all facts are known.  You may agree with me after reading the facts in this link...

HERE IS THE DEFINITIVE LINK

[leji]

Well, according to the few I know about US and the US government I suppose that if they could prove that it wasnt a plane but some kind of missile that crashed in the pentagon we would here about it everyday !
Remember that Bush and everyone in the US gov want to show to the whole world that terrorism is everywhere and really dangerous, a missile would be a benediction for them! imagine, they could say that this military stuff must have been provided by an ennemy country and attack it (Who said France ?? NO!! we\'re nice people !!  
No, really, if that kind of stuff was true nobody would have buried this story, money and power is much too important for everyone for them to waste such an occasion !

Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done, and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!

[DevotedEternal]

Originally posted by leji
Well, according to the few I know about US and the US government I suppose that if they could prove that it wasnt a plane but some kind of missile that crashed in the pentagon we would here about it everyday !
Remember that Bush and everyone in the US gov want to show to the whole world that terrorism is everywhere and really dangerous, a missile would be a benediction for them! imagine, they could say that this military stuff must have been provided by an ennemy country and attack it (Who said France ?? NO!! we\'re nice people !!  
No, really, if that kind of stuff was true nobody would have buried this story, money and power is much too important for everyone for them to waste such an occasion !

Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done , and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!

Don\'t worry, most of us Americans are too.

[Pegasus]

The funny thing is that most conspiracy theoriests will pick up whatever evidence they get from the government and focus only on that.
I mean you can lure away a dog from a big pile of meat if you feed him small pieces (as long as he hasnt seen the big pile)

Anyways i agree with monketh that this discussion is a bit of a waste of time cause it happen almost 3 years ago now. And finding out what really happened wont be possible anyways so find a more interessting way to waste your time (crystal collecting? ).

As for politics - I hope that Bush wont be relected although as i heard he has good chances currently (even if he only leads by 2% - which is bad for a 2nd-term candidate btw).

[Draklar]

Well it seems that nowadays finding conspirations makes you \"kewl\" so I decided to find one as well... right on this website:

Originally posted by Abemore
HERE IS THE DEFINITIVE LINK

first, the website clearly states that what hit pentagon was a missile... does this look like a missile damage?

no, I don\'t think so... conspiration! :evil:
Description of jet fuel fireballs is as follows: \"Go from yellow to orange to black.\"
Here we have last frame:

why wasn\'t it mentioned? And how come missile explossion has fireball like that? conspiration! :evil:
Why quotes from various people on that website say different things? conspiration! :evil:
Why if you put everything together that has been said on that website, you get the conclussion that:
Pentagon was hit by a missile, followed by attack of a small plane (we have to get the damage shape and black fireball from somewhere, nay?) and after that Boeing 757 hit the ground and didn\'t touch the building (eyewitnesses are always right: \"it didn\'t appear to crash into the building ...\"). The lawn remained undamaged by the last one and right part of the plane flew to the left. The attack itself wasn\'t run by terrorists, but government itself (why would terrorists hit part of building with no one there?). And the government decided to crush all 3 items (missile, small plane, big plane) into pentagon to make it more flashy (well duh). There was no VIPs or anything there so they did it just to start war with terrorism and missile wouldn\'t be enough for it so they crushed all 3 and hid the missile and small plane from public (those 2 were used just for the fun of it). Oh, and WTC attack was run by government as well.
conclusion: utter conspiration! X(

yeah, this website is full of evidence... evidence that put together makes it the biggest bs of the year...

[Monketh]

Oh great, here we go again!

It does sometimes seem that I\'m the Official Unofficial Argument Lawyer for the Bush Administration and G.O.P. in this forum sometimes, doesn\'t it?
Well, someone\'s gotta do it, they don\'t deserve flak like this.

Originally posted by Levski

Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.

  .  But anyways, smoke can very well look like that in a pixelated image, which might, I accede, be pixelated on purpose.

It was pixelated by the author, or was originally low-resolution.  The pixelation was created deliberately to hide the airplane.

No, but I\'d sure like an administration which doesn\'t deliberately try to hide them from us.  Is the United States a Democracy, or is the government using the people?  For some reason, I tend to think the latter ever since George W. Bush stepped into office.

For the last time, the US of A is a REPUBLIC!  Why can\'t democrats/liberals get that through their heads!

Now, do you think that September 11th would have happened if Al Gore was in office (and it was his own damn fault he didn\'t let Clinton campaign for him)?  I don\'t.  

I\'m not sure whether to laugh at how ludicrous this claim is, or cry in pity because you believe it....
Those attacks were planned far in advance, before Bush stepped into office.  Gore wouldn\'t have seen them coming, either.  Don\'t even try to prove this, I\'m not reading blogs.

President Bush just isn\'t on the same caliber as he is/was.  Now, when George W. Bush stepped into office, what did he do?  Nothing visible to the American public.  He struggled for control of the senate, he spent 40% of his time on vacation.  Al Gore had clear goals and he had an advantage over Bush, he just came from the White House.  So what does that do?  It makes him experienced.  And that is all that counts.

I see you\'re still a little bitter over florida.  Gore was a politician and you know it.  As for 40% of his time on vacation, where did you come up with this figure?  I\'d really like to know.

Bush did what he said he would, even ol\' Bill Clinton admitted it.

So let\'s not argue as to whether or not the Pentagon was hit, because it was.  Would it have been hit, would September 11th have happened, if Al Gore had been elected?  No, I don\'t think so.

Yes, it would have.  I don\'t care how much better a president you think Gore would have made, that wouldn\'t have changed it.

Note:  This isn\'t an angry/mad/flame post.  It is simply a discussion post.

Noted and filed.

[edit: ]
More meat:

Originally posted by DevotedEternal

Originally posted by leji
Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done , and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!

Don\'t worry, most of us Americans are too.

No, that\'s a lie.  Bush would not have a 2-point lead if that were true.  Those for and against are too close for it to be called in your favor.
Plus the \"and\" implies being completely against, and doesn\'t take into account those feeling the war was justified, but who disagree with the methods used.

[Abemore]

You can\'t just dismiss the evidence as BS when it\'s factual and clearly makes the original claim an impossibility.  Yes, this does raise more questions than answers, but we should not subscribe to what the government tells us just because its easier.  It is our responsibility to ask questions and keep the government in check.

Here are some solid arguements:

• Damage pattern shows only a superficial relationship to the profile of a 757.

Demensions of damage were 26 feet by 90 feet; demensions of a 757 are 40 feet by 125 feet.

• Columns are bent towards the center of the hole and/or outward.
• There was a fence, a generator, and spools under the right engines projected path... all untouched.
• No photo\'s shown of seats, bodies, luggage, or plane parts.
• White explosion - not from jetfuel.
• Witnesses plot the 757 on a different flight path.
• All videos of the crash were seized by the FBI, save for 5 frames from a single Pentagon surveillance camera with crappy resolution, signs of alteration, and incorrect timestamps.

Notes to Monketh:
- The US is refered to as a Democratic Republic.
- Bush was on vacation before 9/11 42% of the time according to Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11 who quoted the Washington Post.

[seperot]

my opoinion is that the movies are stupid and prove nothing they where planes

where my belive something is amiss is the fact i belive the military knew about this....why you ask?

in a idea....thingy your country is hated 2/3 of the known lands hate you. you learn intel that some terrorists are going to attack inportant places to your land you have 2 options 1) you can draw whatever force you can and stop this threat. this of course means that the public will not feel much anger for the terrorists and will not fall behind you in a war...also you will not be remembered in history as the leader of that time.

or 2) you can let the attack happen bringing an even bigger force under your wing people most of the popualtion aggree with the war as they feel they have been attacked and need to fight back the likelyhood of war is high ypu will be remembered for this.

just something that bounces in my head not trying to move anyones veiw just showing my thinking

[Draklar]

Sure sure... but let me question government once I see website/book/whatever made by someone who isn\'t completely biased and is actually looking at \'for\' and \'against\' the theories.

The website is lacking any considerations. It\'s just putting \"omgz0r c0nspiracy!1!1!!oneoneeleven\" into pretty words with some \"facts\" from books by equally biased authors.
Author of the website is throwing away anything government states, without thinking about it.

For example the 757 profile.
He states that dimensions don\'t fit in... Well how does he expect them to fit in if the plane flying at such speed exploded when hitting ground and still crushed into solidly built construction? I wouldn\'t expect plane to \"slip\" into such building without damaging (maybe losing) wings.

Witnesses? If they all were right, 3 objects would attack pentagon.

White explosion? That came from the same guy who \"forgot\" to mention all the rest frames which clearly showed fuel explossion. I\'d expect any explossion to have flash effect which could do something like that, but hey...

I wouldn\'t expect bodies and luggage to survive heat that melt steel used to built pentagon...

I don\'t remember the spools picture too well... but weren\'t they covered in dust or something? If so, being at such distance from fire, wouldn\'t the explossion (no matter missile or plane) blow them away in the first place? Couldn\'t they be placed there after the attack?

And I\'m not surprised by FBI actions. If I were on their place, last thing I\'d like to see is what the cameras recorded everywhere in TV (no matter if 757 or whatever).

Can\'t answer point 2, don\'t know about it... heck, don\'t even know what that proves...

meh, personally I don\'t even care what hit it... it doesn\'t change anything anyway...