Author Topic: 3D) ]Klyros  (Read 8372 times)

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
3D) ]Klyros
« on: September 24, 2004, 12:10:28 pm »
8) Well I think I am now confident enough with my modeling skills to tackle the Klyros:

Here is the Latest Render:

(I will update this as I go. Last Update: Oct 25, 2004)

I am starting to model this as an attempt to eventually make a game-quality model for CB.
But I need lots of suggestions & support because this is really my first full-figured Character model.



Anyway, the render on the left is a High-Res version of the bust, & the image on the right is a Auto Generated Low-Poly model. I am still tweaking the Auto Optimize thing for best results & I think I\'ll make it about 4000tri for the entire model, Then on final Hand Optimizing I can shave it off to about 2500tri, but that is just a guess right now...
The Optimizer creates lots of extra Polys around joints & the mouth that I can get rid of later & still look about the same.

I was working on the waist but next I think I\'ll do some wings because they are fun to do. If you think something doesn\'t look right just say so, I know the eyes probably will not be in the finished model but rather in the texture. I\'m going to gather lots of fan-art now on the Klyros to compare it to while I work on it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2004, 05:51:23 pm by Zeraph »

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Moogie

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4551
  • Artist/Flash Animator
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2004, 12:37:13 pm »
Could you post a profile of the torso? At the current angle it looks stretched outwards, as if it\'s wide and thin, but that may be due to the lighting or something.

The shape of the head/jaw makes it look unstructured, too much like a fish. I think this would make the bones too weak for crunching or chewing motions, so it would be a major hinderance to any creature which spends >50% of its time above water eating meat or vegetation (rather than, say, swallowing small sea insects).

While you\'re tweaking the auto-optimised version, try to remove that line that runs down the tummy.

One last thing I\'d suggest is to extend the neck, as it looks too squashed down onto the body. As the Klyros can both swim and fly, I would expect it to have evolved a good freedom of movement for the head, aswell as an all-round flexible and athletic body (so keep him slim :) ).

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2004, 12:48:12 pm »
Thanks I see your point :) NURBS always makes thinks look Cartoon-ish but I\'ll get a Profile for you, I think he is a little to wide in the abs... & a longer but strong & flexible looking neck...

Oh, & the line in the front of the model is just the seam, which will definitely be rid of in hand Optimizing, the way NURBS is set up it is sort of like a stretchy square cloth over some deformed rings, this is just the seam which I probably should have put in the back...  :D

Edit: Here it is...

I made the abs better & the neck longer however I think I should make the neck thicker... I\'ll fix the Jaw in Manual optomizing later... the fold in the neck will not show up in the Optomized version & I can\'t really get rid of it right now..
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 01:42:24 pm by Zeraph »

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
Update:
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2004, 02:35:20 am »
I added Wings as a separate mesh:

I just wanted to see what it would look like if Klyros were made of chrome.
It\'s Abstract Fan-Art...

I also added a nose & really messed up the face, but I fixed it. I do not think I can add a crest unless it is going to be a separate mesh later on, actually I think it looks good without a crest, but it says they have one on there forehead to make them look like a fish or something...

I had to work a long time to get the wing like this:

But now that I have them looking like bat wings I can tweak them. Just tell me if they do not look right like to big or something...

Right now they are spread out unnaturally but this is only so it make it very easy to make bones for, on one of the earlier versions of the wing I rigged it so it will fold up.

I am not really sure if that looks like the right place to attach the wings onto the body...
Its just wings usually take the place of arms in nature...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 11:21:19 am by Zeraph »

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Magerranger

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2004, 05:29:53 am »
shouldent the wings be on an angle up, and be slightyl wraped around the body. other than that it looks great, try it in silver like on the charicter info page

\"Jesus Wept\"

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2004, 11:22:22 am »
Ack! The part where the wings are connected to the body is -much- too thin. Looks as if they could fall off completely, much less even provide -any- flight. They should grow from the shoulders and the hips, to support the Klyros\' weight in air. Look at the image on the PS site:

Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2004, 11:19:15 am »
Lets see the, the website describes the Klyros as having a tail, but I am probably going to add one later, but for now I sort of made the back Ridgy:


I also split the mesh into 2 so I could add holes for the arms & wings:

Even though the creases look sloppy they will be no more after I convert everything into an Editable Mesh & weld it all together...

Now I\'ll start on making the legs & then the arms...
Then the tail & crest probably, although these will add more polys to the already demanding wings & head, I think the Klyros game model will be something like 3 to 4 Thousand tri to make it look good due to so many extrusions & extremities...

I wrote that yesterday when my internet was out, but now I got my Cable internet back so I am sooo happy today!

Anyway, I\'m goign to make the wings support the Klyros, I acually modeled legs but I do not have a render of that right now, I\'ll probably make the arms first then tweek the wings to look right...

:D
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 11:24:06 am by Zeraph »

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Reyun

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2004, 08:11:30 pm »
the \"spikes\" on his head....arent they in more of a \"mohawk\" type formation? and his face seems kinda long

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
Lets see,
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2004, 04:41:43 am »
I got my 3DsMax6 working again when I installed Windows XP on my other computer. lol it is a 400Mhz Pentium II - so it defenately can\'t rin PS, but it is ok for modelling stuff in 3DsMax. I like it becouse my mom is never on it so I can be on as long as I do not have something else more important to do...

It took a while to get the wings in this shape, I didn\'t think the wings would be this hard to shape, but anyway I do not know why, but I spent a long time optomizzing the wings & here is the resalt:

the polycount is good for the game, & I think it look preaty good.
(wings are hard to make look good while keeping polycount low)

I sort of wanted to see what it woould look like if it was in-game right now so I made this rough render:

I auto-optomized the head body & legs, I think I do not have to change the leg, but the feet are another matter, something is strange with them but nothing that can\'t be fixed in hand optomizing...
As you can see it is all sort of a ockwared looking stage for this model, once I make arms for it then I can start pooting the parts together & weld the seams... then it will look nice, but it is late right now & I really do not have time to make it look better tonight.

I do have one request for you 2D Artists, since I am making a Male Klyros, I will probably end up making a Female Klyros Model later, so could you sketch some Female Klyros? I estomate I am going to be done with the male in maybe 3 to 4 days but then I have to make animations & such... but I haven\'t seen much on what the female Klyros looks like, could you (If Possable) make a front & side sketch, that is how I veiw the model when modelling most often, what I can do is mount the sketch in 3D & sort of \"tracing\" of the perpotions in 3D from that. I also sort of need to see the back side becouse that is what Klyros players will be looking @ most if they use 3RD Person...

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Ald'Amun Dungeonrunner

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2004, 08:24:47 am »
I\'m sorry to make any demeaning comments about this...for the most part it looks very good, just to me his whole face looks too pointy and fish-like, at least compared to the picture...could just be me misinterpreting it though...


^Made by jcterminal

Zeraph

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 658
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2004, 01:29:25 pm »
Ya, I have decided to fix it in manual optomizing, becouse the more I mess with it the more deformed it looks.... :(

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2004, 01:54:52 pm »
It\'s so cool to see a work in progress :D \'Nother suggestion: add muscle structure to the wings, so they don\'t seem paper-thin.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Kuiper7986

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1031
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2004, 01:55:44 pm »
actually I know why it looks like a fish. It\'s because you the nose and mouth sticking out infront eyes. If you look at Karyuus picture of the Planeshift Kylros the nose is completely flat and doesn\'t stick out and the mouth is complete flat and also doesn\'t stick out. But other that the face i like the torso you have better than the drawing, I believe you have it just right
My name is NOT pronounced, \"Kway-per,\" it\'s pronounced \"Kye-per.\"

Seytra

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2049
  • No system can compensate lack of common sense.
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2004, 03:20:56 pm »
It\'s of course always a tradeoff between poly count and realism, but you seem to be doing a good job at it so far. :)

The head has been commented on already (although I think the crest is not going up the skull but surrounding it, maybe merging with the spine spikes at the back, which, as a result, might be in two parallel rows, not just one), but there are some other things I\'d like to point out:

1) maybe the wings should start even lower, like on the upper legs (see bat in 3))? They still seem to be too small in terms of area. I also think that it might be an option to remove the \"dent\" between the lowest spike and the body. The bone structure in the wings IMO is more like a downward hand. I think the version on the 2d image would be more realistic because it allows for more area coverage if stretched out (I imagine about two or even threefold size of what is shown in the 2d image).

2) While the torso you have looks more humanlike, I think it\'s to be more like in the 2d picture ( i.e. more \"Y\" shaped\" ), because the reduced room will lead to reduced weight, which is important. A bit like flying dinosaurs:



Imagine decent legs with this flying dinosaur and you\'ll see what I mean. Look at 3) for a comment on wing structure.

On the same note I need to critise the 2d image for it\'s prominent muscles. While I think there will be almost no fat to smoothen the surface (thus leaving muscles, bones and whatnot clearly visible), I also think that the muscles themselves will be smaller and less bulky. There are muscles that are very powerful but very thin but long. Also, they\'ll need arteries and veins to supply them. Overall I think the Klyros will look extremely slender, stringy and fragile for their size, even more than elves do.

3) the wings need to be able to be folded very tight and close to the body to allow for swimming. Otherwise, they\'ll be creating too much friction in water. Due to their size, they can\'t be used for anything in water (fish don\'t have huge wings), so they need to be folded away almost completely, which can be done with the bone structure I described in 1), but it can\'t be done with the current structure.

Like a bat:


4) The 2d image completely lacks an alternative for the wings when swimming. IMO the only way to fix this issue is by adding small extensions to the outsides of the lower legs, possibly reaching down to the feet (i.e. on the right leg it goes out to the right, on the left to the left). They also need to be able to be folded away, however, so that they will not be damaged when running on land (especially offroads). These extensions would enable the Klyros to exert great propelling force with their legs when diving.

5) The feet look somewhat strange because there is no division between them and the legs. They look like what you get when you put on trousers that are way too long for you. ;) So I think you just need to add some sort of division and they\'re OK. But this little thorn-like protrusion in the 2d image is really neat, maybe you can add that while you\'re at it? ;) In fact, AFAIK some animals (like cats, IIRC) also have one of these, so it might even be more realistic. :)

This is hard to explain in plain text, if you have any questions, ask. Maybe I can draw up a sketch of what I mean if you\'d like one.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 04:02:50 pm by Seytra »

leinir

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2004, 05:03:26 pm »
I was discussing Klyros anatomy with a friend yesterday while walking around town, and we happened upon a little something... Look at how the wings are attached on a bat or the pteranodon, the skin is attached all the way from the tip of the wing, and all the way (or in the case of the bat at least most of the way) down the leg. Not only that, but while discussing this with regards to Klyros, it hit me that the drawing on the PS homepage could be interpreted that way as well. I am not saying that it is or is not like that, because due to the angle of the pose you cannot actually see it, but it could just be the case... Just thought that it was an interesting point :)
We also talked about the attachment of the wings, and while suspence of disbelief is important, it would also be rather important to get it Right(TM). It seems that in nature there are two ways of having wings: The first is like what we see in bats and the pteranodon, where the front limb (arm) becomes the wing. The other is in the case of our only real life dragon. The wings on this is a set of special ribs that protrude from it\'s body, covered with skin, enabling it to glide. Since this is basically what the Klyros will be doing, we agreed that this would probably be the best way of doing it realisticly.
There is also the consideration that a flying creature the size of a human (as the Klyros are, though of course slightly shorter), would have an immense chest, and a wing span of some 7 meters. To have it just be a way of, well, jumping very far or fall with style ;) it would be possible, again, to justify smaller wings, and a not-huge chest.
So, there\'s my friend and my thoughts on the subject :) Also, I should add that I agree that the language on the site to me suggests that it\'s a mohawk type thing on the top of the Klyros head ;) And, that the head you\'ve made is a little long, compared to the site\'s description (though it /does/ say that it\'s supposed to have a kind of fishy head).
.. Dan // Leinir ..
http://www.leinir.dk/

\"A Vast Swimmer Keeps No Pets\"
 - Seamus Z. Harper, Andromeda 1:14