Author Topic: a REAL economy  (Read 4508 times)

Mkt2015

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Easy to understand!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2004, 12:00:45 am »
Ok. A simple economic plan. Of course all of economics is based on supply and demand. Who cares of some players hoard money. If they hoard money then they must not need a whole lot of items to live. Here\'s a good layout.

1. Have something in the game check item variables.
Example: (bread = 2 gold: supply 150% (surplus), demand 50%) In this case the bread would stay the same price because the supply and demand even out.
2. The variables would be checked once a month. This would be in case someone finds a really easy way to accumulate a lot of items and then selling them to the highest bidder. They\'d only be able to do that for a month and then the price would change.

The bad thing is how to figure up the supply percent and the demand percent. This is easy...you simply see how much bread was sold and how much bread was made.

You\'re all right...economics is not complex and I\'m an English major. Any economics majors disagree with my assessment?

taltiren

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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2004, 04:07:46 pm »
I\'ve taken a bunch of economics classes, and I\'ve never seen supply and demand represented as percentages. I\'m really not sure what that means. Could you elaborate?

ArcaneFalcon

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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2004, 04:17:21 pm »
I think Mkt2015 is getting mixed up.  Basically he is trying to say that supply and demand are equal, therefore the price stays the same.  His little 50/150 thing doesn\'t really work in that demand is half of what it normally is and the supply has 50% extra.  That would result in a massive price drop.  To be equal they would need to be 100/100.

Golbez

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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2004, 05:05:29 pm »
I think that before we tackle the economy model to be applied in game, we must first be more aware of the economic aspect of the setting. So far the only thing that lies in front of us is the currency. We know we have trias, hexas, octas and circles.

But we do not know if the economic model is similar to the feudalism and manorialism of the Middle Ages, or if the economy is regulated by the Yliakum government through the strict control of Guilds, or if the suggested \"post-Adam Smith\" concepts would be applicable in a medieval fantasy setting.

A lot has been discussed about \"businessmen\", but if you ask me, there would be no such thing as \"businessmen\" in Yliakum. Crafters, smiths, merchants, yes. But not businessmen. And in the days of yore (When speaking of \"free market\", \"variation according to supply and demand\", \"inflation\", and such terms were totally unknown) the prices were not so liberally established.

Simplifying the economy in excess will lead to it being dull and uninspiring. On the other hand, crafting an intricate and complex system will lead to it being exploited by a few and, let us be honest, how many of the players DO understand the complexity of world economics? This ignorance will undoubtedly end up with the system not being properly used.

So where do we draw the line? Is it truly worth it to spend hour after hour of brainstorming about Yliakum\'s economics when probability favours the chance of it not being properly accounted for by the players? Would a more automatised and less realistic system suffice for the needs of the gaming community? And the King of Questions: How much does the in-game economy contribute to the gaming experience as a whole, knowing that its hyerarchical importance is not as massively recognised?

Just some thoughts.

- Golbez
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 05:06:14 pm by Golbez »

taltiren

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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2004, 12:33:21 am »
Mkt2015, I\'m not going to comment further because I do disagree with you on many levels and I don\'t see how your system would be useful. I don\'t mean to sound like a jerk, but what are are saying doesn\'t make any sense.

I think what we were discussing here (or at least what I tried to say) is how screwed up many other mmorpg economies get. I used to play swg, and after a six month hiatus from the game, prices for everything useful had risen significantly, whereas most items became practically worthless, since there was no demand for them. Golbez, it is not that having a good economic structure would add much to gameplay, it is that having an economy fail in a game takes a lot away from what the devs intended.

I have a feeling that no matter how the devs try to make the economy, it will certainly have aspects of modern economic policies included. To be honest I think it would be far more complicated to try to recreate a feudal economy (basically people farming and giving tribute to the lord) than to apply some modern economic norms (such as entrepreneurship among crafters and a limited money supply).

Mkt2015

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Maybe I'm stupid
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2004, 04:36:14 am »
For starters I will say that the percentages, when looking back on them, wouldn\'t make sense. However, it is still based on a system that works, even if that system doesn\'t make sense. I\'m working with the idea that in a balanced economic model price would be 100% and demand would be 100% so if one was 150% and the other 50%, they would balance out. If there was a huge surplus of Eggs in the world (the real world), the price would drop because the demand would not be high. In time, however, the price would go back to the way it was because there would no longer be a surplus. Duh!!!

I don\'t care about all of these different economic models. A system of balance works for everything. A fighter has to balance out between offense and defense for instance.

What the system would have to have is a definitive cost for certain items at the very beginning. Depending on how many people end up playing the game and how the game is played will affect the cost. Costs never remain the same. When your grandparents went to see a movie it cost them 10 cents so how come I have to pay $7.50? Inflation. I don\'t know how inflation would work in an MMORPG because resources are unlimited, unlike oil in the real world. I\'m guessing that that would mean there would be no inflation. In that case, the cost of all items initially would remain the same. Would they go up and down based on supply and demand? Yes, but in the end, everything balances out.

Here are my comments for the other in this thread of collected thoughts:

The only way to have a realistic economy is if natural resources aren\'t unlimited. It\'s a game, so they probably will be unlimited.

I doubt anyone would want to pay money to a lord or king or whatever. If I hoard my money will I be beheaded because I don\'t pay the king every month? I truly doubt it.

I haven\'t played other MMORPGs except for Runescape which has a standard price for all items. Not bad. It\'s useful. Maybe the reason why the other MMORPGs sucked when it came to an economic formula was because they tried to make it too complex. Economics is not complex! If you can\'t hear me....ECONOMICS IS NOT COMPLEX!! Supply and demand. Period.

Golbez

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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2004, 05:29:31 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Mkt2015
For starters I will say that the percentages, when looking back on them, wouldn\'t make sense. However, it is still based on a system that works, even if that system doesn\'t make sense. I\'m working with the idea that in a balanced economic model price would be 100% and demand would be 100% so if one was 150% and the other 50%, they would balance out. If there was a huge surplus of Eggs in the world (the real world), the price would drop because the demand would not be high. In time, however, the price would go back to the way it was because there would no longer be a surplus. Duh!!!


So, we would be using a system even if we know it does not make any sense whatsoever? I hardly consider that a viable alternative.


Quote
Originally posted by Mkt2015
I doubt anyone would want to pay money to a lord or king or whatever. If I hoard my money will I be beheaded because I don\'t pay the king every month? I truly doubt it.


There are no lords or kings in Yliakum as of yet, so a feudal model should not be applied directly. What I suggest is doing a research on the economic system of the Middle Ages, and adapting it to the setting of PlaneShift.

Besides, taxes and tributes could turn out to be an interesting idea. And I have a few thoughts about the form of punishment for the evasion of such laws (Always trying to avoid the concept of \"Jail\", since it generally leads to the killing of the roleplaying).





Quote
Originally posted by Mkt2015
I haven\'t played other MMORPGs except for Runescape which has a standard price for all items.


That one is not an RPG.


Quote
Originally posted by Mkt2015
Maybe the reason why the other MMORPGs sucked when it came to an economic formula was because they tried to make it too complex. Economics is not complex! If you can\'t hear me....ECONOMICS IS NOT COMPLEX!! Supply and demand. Period.


I am a bit dumbfounded. If the only game you have played is Runescape, how come you are so aware of how much \"the other MMORPGs sucked\"? I am curious as to how you are so acquainted with those economic systems if you never played the games in question.

And the \"Economics is not complex\"? Tell that to the poor fellows that study economy for five years at university. Supply and demand is just a fraction of what economy entails. There is also Micro and Macroeconomy, depending on the guvernamental regulations, logistics, financial math, statistics, world and regional laws of economics, marketing, international finance, sociology, psychology, and a whole bunch of other pertinent matters without which economy collapses. And no, not all of it revolves around \"Supply and demand\".

It is akin to saying that Engineering is all about math. And trust me, it is not.

- Golbez

dfryer

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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2004, 07:32:03 pm »
If economics is just supply and demand, then you can bet that supply and demand will be very complex :)

One of the keys to a fun game is balance (but not necessarily \"equality of all choices\")  For prices to behave in a realistic manner, things need to be set up in a very careful way.  If it was easy, it would be done a lot more.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

Mkt2015

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Hello yet again
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2004, 09:58:51 pm »
There are many, many people that would dispute you in saying that the game-that-will-not-be-named is not an RPG. I don\'t want to get into what an RPG because that\'s not what this thread is.

I have not played any other MMORPG.

Yes there is micro and macro economics...and all of those other things you mentioned in an economy, but it still boils down to supply and demand. People look at those aspects simpy to try and understand supply and demand. Why a million people have to have a tickle-me-elmo? That is a good question that many people tried to answer. A friend of mine and I had a discussion once as to why GTA3 was still $40 even though it should\'ve been a greatest hits by now. He said that enough people are still buying it at that price. I told him that that makes sense, but if it was $20 many more people would buy it. Wow, you mean lowering the price of an item actually makes more people want to buy it? Duh!

I\'m not disputing that there isn\'t:

\"guvernamental regulations, logistics, financial math, statistics, world and regional laws of economics, marketing, international finance, sociology, psychology, and a whole bunch of other pertinent matters without which economy collapses\"

You are right that all of those things have to do with the economy, but almost all of those things are the nitty-gritty technical details. There was an episode of the apprentice where a person with a degree in business created this entire model of how to sell something. In the end she simply said that it has to do with the price of the item and how much people will want it. Duh! When it comes to the economy in real life it is good to know all about pychology and sociology and government regulations, etc., but this is a game...a game in which you don\'t have to advertise to sell something to someone, a game in which a lot of people who play the game just want to go on quests, kill things and then get better stats.

Would it be nice to have a REAL economy in a game? No. I play games to get away from real life. If you make the game too real it kills the fun aspect of it.

Shleepy

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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2004, 12:58:54 am »
I have to agree with taltiren and some of the others (but especially him because his last post was right to the point).

Mkt2015, no matter what you say, MMORPG economies are complex. You even mentioned that inflation does not exist in them or something like that. If you have EVER played an MMORPG, you\'d know that is, by far, the biggest issue in the MMORPG economies.

Secondly, you said that you play games to get away from real life. Go right ahead. MANY players play MMORPG\'s because they like trading and stuff like that. That\'s part of the ECONOMY, but it doesn\'t mean that YOU specifically have to pay strict attention to it; just go with the flow. In case you don\'t know, a nice 99% of the public really has no idea how the economy operates; oh well, they\'re living, aren\'t they?

Oh, and one other thing. I think that a controlled and LIMITED capital economy will certainly be good. It will keep inflation down easily, and there won\'t be the issue of, as someone said, \"resources are unlimited, unlike oil in the real world.\" Not only can capital be limited and be part of a circular flow, but we could control ITEMS, as well. It\'s not that hard, people.

zinder

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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2004, 05:46:03 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Golbez

Quote
Originally posted by Mkt2015
I doubt anyone would want to pay money to a lord or king or whatever. If I hoard my money will I be beheaded because I don\'t pay the king every month? I truly doubt it.


There are no lords or kings in Yliakum as of yet, so a feudal model should not be applied directly. What I suggest is doing a research on the economic system of the Middle Ages, and adapting it to the setting of PlaneShift.

Besides, taxes and tributes could turn out to be an interesting idea. And I have a few thoughts about the form of punishment for the evasion of such laws (Always trying to avoid the concept of \"Jail\", since it generally leads to the killing of the roleplaying).



I think the renaissance is a better model for PS. There where still kings and lords with liegepeople, but also the cities with their guilds and the merchants. The landfolk was mostly still under a feudal system, also the cities as such. But the citizens of the cities lifed in a more mercantile system with their guilds. Also the feudals werent anymore the only powerfull people, but merchants were too. For an example search for the Fugger.

For the punishment for evasion of tax/trubite laws the AFAIK feudals gone to war and landfolk would be killed. Property would be seized. In the cities they seized the property, too. And if that didnt pay all the debt, you went to special jail to starve till either someone paid the debt or death.
To avoid the effect of jail on RP, in PS we could put the offendee in jail for some minutes and then let them work for the city for a limited time. For example some sewer cleaning or harvesting missions. If they run, the militia always kills them when they try to enter the city.

Zalan

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(Very very very long, but relevant IMHO)
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2004, 06:30:07 am »
I agree that economy don\'t need to be as complex as real life economy. Just watch for this:

1. Supply and demand are the base of an economical system.
2. To be effective, an economical system must be almost closed.
3. The circulation of items and money is the key to a good economy.
4. In our world, nothing is created, nothing is lost, all is transformed. It\'s not the case of MMORPGs.
5. In our world, people are tied to their country, state, city and much more. It\'s not the case of MMORPGs\' players.

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First, supply and demand. This is the real base of economy. Get rid of all the government and social stuff and think about it.

A cavern\'s man, let\'s name him Grohk, have 4 wifes and each one have a little garden and makes pots to store food. Grohk\'s neighboor, let\'s name him Bukop, don\'t have a family, but is a young and talented hunter, very good at crafting. Grohk don\'t have silex to produce fire, but he knows winter is coming. He goes to ask Bukop to trade one silex for 10 pots of food and a wife. Bukop want two wifes for it, but Grohk don\'t want to lose two wifes (maybe too much babies to take care of ;) ) He thinks he will be ok if his wifes stay close to him to warm him.

So the winter arrives, a tough one, very cold. The animals are rare and it\'s hard to hunt \'cause of the snow. Getting cold, Grohk travel to Bukop\'s territory with two of his wifes and offer them to Bukop. The neighboor refuse the women and ask for food instead. Grohk offers 10 pots of food, but no girl, and Bukop accepts...

You see, that\'s how it worked. It\'s a fairly simple exemple, but we need to focus on that. The setting of a MMORPG is different from our actual world. The only thing that we can be sure of is that the supply and demand have many chances to lead to market. If there is a King, he will demand for taxes to be paid to the resident. But this is addition to the base system. Can we create a world where supply and demand can be \"realistic\"? Yes. We need to limit supply and create demand.

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Second, the effectivity of a closed circle. To avoid inflation, you need to keep your circle as closed as possible. If you don\'t you\'ll get a nice spiral that we could name continual inflation. To keep you circle closed, you need to control what goes in and what goes out the circle. The inner part of the circle is the \"game coffers\", and the outter part is the \"players coffers\". We need the players to take from \"game coffers\" about the same amount that the players will put back in the \"game coffers\". We don\'t speak of money, but value. When a player buy a sword, he puts money in \"game coffers\" and retreive a sword from them. When he will be selling it, he will add a worn sword to the \"game coffers\" and take some gold from them. It\'s really simple to do when there is no valuables coming from outside the system. These two last points are discussed later, but I think the idea of the closed circle is clear, so I will move on.

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As said before, the circulation of goods between player and system is very important. The majority of players will try to buy the minimum stuff to survive and keep their money to buy the best stuff available in the game. Those people don\'t really participate in the economy because they buy only what they REALLY need (armour, weapon, potions if they, or one of their friend, don\'t have equivalent spells) We need to create needs.

Food is obvious, as is the limited durability of items. Food is not a big issue, because most players, or so, learn to feed themself with what they find around. We could tweak a little to add some depht, like processed food (with \"in town\" equipment) is much more nutritive, and food don\'t keep fresh very long, unless processed. This encourage the players to buy food in town, because they don\'t want to buy the equipment to process the food and want to keep food fresh all their journey long.

The durability must encourage the player to consume products. A worn sword can be repaired for some time, but after a while it becomes cheaper to reforge the sword entirely. Your clothes are not indestructible too, they will get holes in and worn out with time. This is even more true for adventurers. If they buy a nice tricorn with a beautiful white feather on it, I doubt that the feather will survive the fireballs ;)

Services is another way to produce needs. Hiring guards, sellers, searchers, miners, farmers, etc... Transports, housing, banking.

If we can ride horses, maybe they will die in a battle or go away because you don\'t take care of it (and a horse certainly cost a lot)

All those little things can guarantee the players to look for money and exchange it for goods.

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The big problem with MMORPG is that there is always unlimited supplies. In fact, it\'s not true in all MMORPG. Some of them have a limited supply of iron in a region, and a forge can create only a limited number of weapons a day, if they have the right amount of ressources. A project named \"The Dawn\" had in mind to create a real world where all depend on something. The trees cut in a forest will grew back again, but not if you cut the forest itself. Same thing if you kill animals, or all males or female of a species. I think it was a pretty interesting idea, but the project has been postponed. Nevertheless, I think we can use the idea to limit the ressources, simplifying the rules.

We should also have mobs with logical drops. How a rat can drops a full plate? Even if it\'s a giant rat, sounds a little weird. This comes from the D&D system in which the monsters got treasures in their dens or, to the limit, in their stomach (a dragon can eat a lot, but have a stomach for, so it desolves what is in, but you could find magical objects). If orcs spawn in a region, dropping a sword half the time, people will not forge sword, but will kill orcs. We need to give a really special attention to the drops, as they can easily destroy the economical system we created. Keeping a low drop rate and a low drop value will certainly helps. This doesn\'t mean it must not have high value drops, only that these drops must be very rare and related to its previous owner.

Keeping an eye on ressource will permit the system to keep the circle closed. As example: A dwarf gets some iron from a mine and craft it in a sword. The sword is then sold to a human that fight with it a while, visiting the dwarf for repairing it a few times. Each time, the dwarf used a little amount of iron to repair the sword. One fine day the human decided to sell the sword back to the dwarf. The dwarf could repair the sword another time and sell it as it, but he decides to reuse the metal of the sword to make another a new one, but, to do so, he needs some more iron to get a fresh new blade.

In this example, we see the life cycle of the sword. I has been forged, then repaired, then reused. Each step took iron, but it has been spent only on one sword. Except the first amount of iron, each extra can be sent back to the \"world reserve\" of iron. I know, it\'s not realistic, but the system offer interesting possibility anyway.

When people will have forged enough weapons (or any tools) too use all the iron available, they will still need iron to repair or create new things. They will need to reuse their old swords to make new one, as those swords are the only iron left. This should not happen, but it could, if nobody sell/destroy their weapons, but I don\'t think each character needs 10 swords.

If a real and unwanted lack of iron appears (the number of players is much more that what the devs tought) they only have to add some iron to the \"world reserve\" to correct the problem. It could be part of a big event, or the discovery of some new spots rich in iron, or the discovery of a new metal, more resistant. It opens a great number a doors and brings the game to life.

I am sure a similar system can be applied to all other ressources used in PS.

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Finally (that soon?!? ;) ), we can\'t force characters to pay taxes because they are not tied to any specific place, and then have no duty to any lord, king, etc... That\'s true, but characters will want to buy a house, build a guild, open a shop or bazaar. This will tie them to a specific place and if they don\'t pay some taxes to the ruler of the city, they will be evicted. Maybe using a bridge, getting into a town or specific building in a region will cost something. There is a lot of way for a ruler to get some incomes. Paying or not can really influence NPCs reaction. If you never give a tith to the Church and ask for healing, they will charge you a lot more than someone who pay it. They can even refuse to help you. Guards of a city can keep you out. If you give a lot of cash to the ruler, he could have favors toward you and, in a bad situation like being flagged as a criminal, helps you to get out of troubles. This leads to all sort of interesting situations. Maybe you could even secretly pay guards to get into an area prohibited to you (maybe you were banned or it is an area only for nobles, etc..)

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To conclude, I would say that it\'s not the economical rules that are hard to establish, but all what comes with them. Generating good algorythms for supply and demand is just complex enough, IMHO. I would have written much more (even if it\'s longer than I expected) on the subject, but it is going late, so I will let the first impressions on the subject appears before adding anything.

I hope I didn\'t waste my time writting this. Maybe you don\'t agree with me on some points, but I am sure some others are pretty good (cross fingers ;) )

Mkt2015

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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2004, 06:49:24 am »
Seems as though I have one more person on my my side. I didn\'t read all of what you wrote, but of what I did read it makes perfect sense.

Here\'s a question: If in a game world there is unlimited resources why would there be need for inflation?

Of course, if crystals pop up occassionally in different places of the world (I think they\'re Crystals), that would mean that there is inflation.

anyway...I\'m gonna go to bed.

zinder

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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2004, 07:30:34 am »
Simple answer: Money is a resource too.

Not so simple answer: Limited money and unlimited materials gives a deflation. Ie you need vast amounts of products to earn little money. And the value of the money raises with more produkts produced. The effect is most people have no money and resort to an exchange trade. You normally dont want that ause the pot-with-a-hole-problem. If you make money unlimited too, everyone is mining money(harvest/produce and sell to a money source). You get more and more money in the system, but not more products. The money loses value. You need more money to buy things and you have an inflation.

You can avoid inflation in unlimited resource environments when every operation only transforms and you have a net gain of zero. IE mining costs as much as as you gain in selling the material. But thats means only shifting money around. And you have to enforce that for the looters, too. But nobody likes such a system, cause you always stay where you are moneywise.

The trick for a good economy is to balance everyhting so that there is a small netgain in the operations and some sinks which arent sources, too, but are wanted, like houses. That way you get a small inflation like in real life. And if the money value sinks below a certain threshold you can modify the balance to a small netloss. That way you can simulate a stable real economy.

Edit: That theorising is the easy part. Actually design such a system is very hard.  
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 11:10:30 am by zinder »

Zalan

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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2004, 06:32:02 pm »
As Zinder said (and I thought it was clear), money is a ressource, then it needs to be kept in the closed circle to avoid inflation (or deflation, which I simply consider like a negative inflation...)

We need to keep in mind that, with the example of the blacksmith dwarf, you will take the iron from his reserves to transfer it to the \"world reserve\". This doesn\'t mean that the iron he took will be transfered to the mine near him, but somewhere around the world. If there is too many miners in a region, this region\'s mine will be depleted and the other mines, less used, will be richer than before. We will then see in the region an inflation for the iron, but not in the other region.

It creates simple dynamics that will permit traders to travel to bring some iron in the depleted region. As in real life, some people will prefer to close their shop and move to richer region and start over again, or some others (like NPCs hehe, stupid bots too tied to their home city ;) ) will prefer to pay their iron a little more from traders.

As the main exploiters are gone, the mine will slowly regenerate and the local shops will be able to retreive enough iron to fill their needs. This will bring the deflation of iron and traders will need to looks for another place to travel to (or find a way to destroy the mine ;) ).

Is not this beautiful? :)


I think the most difficult thing to do is to keep an eye on drops and, maybe, population. Drops are well explained in my previous post (or if it is not, just tell it, I will develop some more), but I didn\'t explain much about population increase, except at the end of the swords\' cycle of life part. Each character coming onto PS will bring with him some basic stuff, equipment and money.

I\'m not sure, but I think we don\'t really need to retreive from the \"world reserve\" this equipment and money (depending of the amount of ressources coming into play) because the new character will eventually need new equipment and more money. The character is in fact an increase of demand for various ressources, so sending some supplies can help to keep a stable economy. Of course, we need to pay particular attention of the relation between the new demand and the new supply added. I think the demand added will become superior to the supply added, so it should not become a problem, but a solution.

If we take this stuff from the \"world reserve\" we will need to monitor more closely the population changes to keep a good ratio of available ressources versus consummers. The reserves must be filled to make periods of prosperity and recession. It is very tied to the population, but I don\'t think we can establish a general rule to calculate the \"ultimate ratio\" before actually try it (like \"during a character life, it will consume an average of 2789 units of iron\"). It will be part of the alpha (or beta) to gather stats on this.

Anyhow, the \"world ressources\" will need to be alterate. If devs calculate that XXXXXXXXX units of iron are needed to a possible population of XXXXXX characters, before the population reach this number there will never have lack. And after the population reach this level, it will never have enough ressource to fill the needs of everybody. It\'s a simple, but important adjustment to do.