Weapon Stats

[Hatchnet]

Stances seem to be a very good idea but would be even better alongside sliders to give even greater customization without sacrificing simplicity.

[Jaysin]

ok first off, don\'t thrash the newb, Just found this game today  but seeing the delima you guys are having I felt I should give some kind of input.

As far as the weapons stats not mattering, sorry but the weapons stats really should matter.... a lot... because if they didn\'t matter very much, what\'s the point in finding/questing/making unique or rare weapons? it\'d be rather pointless because they\'d  all have the same stats. That said here\'s what I think should show in a weapons description

Damage: #
Weapon Speed: #
Weight: #
Races that can use: (races, or  all)
Stat Changes: i.e. str + #
Ability/Resistance/enchantments: i.e. sneak + #, disease resistanc + #, haste, regen etc.

going from there on figuring out the damage per second or whatever timeframe you want is simple, seconds are more practical mind you, take your weapon skill for that particular weapon and turn it into a percent, multiply that percent by your strength, add that number to the weapon damage, add some randomness bonuses to the attack to vary how hard you hit, and your character will hit that hard in whatever speed your weapon has. so it\'d look something like this

Blade of Hurtyness
 
14 dmg
24 dly (which would translate into 2.4 secs)
Str +10, Agi +15, HP +50
SvFire +5, SvDisease +5, SvCold +5, SvMagic +5, SvPoison +5
wt 2.5
Effect: (in game spell that will occasionally cast on rare occasions)
Races: ALL

[Hatchnet]

Not to be mean but the basic idea behind this thread is to hide the basic weapon stats so that people do not use them as a basis for which weapon is best. Each weapon would still have its individual stats but they would not be visable

[Cyberchu]

Then again those would probably be very useful for the client to use to calculate any attack.

[Snut]

Personally, I love the idea of weapon stats being hidden or at least extremely simple - the depth should come from the character and how it uses them.

Characters might be able to evaluate the quality of a weapon though, as they have more information than players - it\'s hard to show in-game the tiny dints and scratches which betray the soft, cheap metal of a blade, or the slightly off balance when this warhammer is swung, but a character might respond with generalised thoughts on the quality of a piece when asked. Obviously armourers, weaponsmiths and (to an extent) fighters will have an advantage over the average layman. Anyone can give feedback like \"This sword appears to be of fine quality, and its balance suits you well\" though

Also, the slider thing - a nice way to present this might be a triangle (like the colour selectors used in certain creative programs). Stick \'attack strength\' one one vertex, \'attack speed\' on another and \'accuracy\' on the third, and let the player drag a marker around to indicate their preferred tactics. A small list of configurable presets with hotkeys might be good for that \"oh dear...\" situation when you meet something scary.

This covers most tactics, especially if a defensive/offensive tactics toggle is available as well, and is quite intuitive. Thoughts?

[Jaysin]

I know the thread is about trying to hide or simplify the weapon stats and all but I was just trying to play devils advocate... cause I personally like having weapons wit several visibble factors... I mean to say your going to hide the stats is like saying, oh yes, you can hit things with this sword but you have no real way of comparing it to anything else... maybe Im just not getting it or something but that\'s the way you guys are making it seem... and thatt triangle idea is pretty cool sounding btw

[Hatchnet]

One way of compareing would be a basic knowledge of weapons while another would be useing different weapons to see which suits you best. Many people think that just because a weapon has better stats it is the weapon for them yet they find they don\'t like the way the weapon works. Hideing the stats would force people to decide for themselves which weapon is better for them creating greter rp as well as a better game overall.

[Snut]

It\'s a fine line between too many souless numbers, and a confusing lack of information IMO

As your character rises in power and acclaim you want to be able to give them commensurate increases in the quality of their equipment. On the other hand, I think it\'s silly to base the choice of weapons on \"This one does 2 - 5 damage, but that one does 3 - 8\". There are loads of other factors, especially if you\'re roleplaying a character and some of those factors aren\'t even modelled in the system. For example, I think Claymores look cool. They just /do/. So my character might use one even though the Hello Kitty Katar of Neon Pinkness technically does better damage... and that seems right.

So maybe there should be some general, fuzzy description for individual weapons (high quality, low quality) and a bit of description about attack speed and damage of the weapon type (high damage, medium speed etc). Avoids compelling newbies into choosing a weapon they normally wouldn\'t because it has a number in its descript that\'s one point higher.

Will there be any sort of \'familiarity\' stat with weapons? I think if you use a given weapon (any weapon, regardless of quality) for long enough, you should be better with it as you learn exactly where its balance is, where the edge is keenest, how best to use the momentum etc. This is a stat unique to that single weapon and seperate from skill stats, which apply to all weapons of a type. I just love the idea of a high-level character wailing on things with the *exact same sword* they bought as a pathetic newbie, without being at a stupendous disadvantage.

Would also make the exact stats of a weapon less important, regardless of how visible they are, as you know you can make up for a slight deficit with familiarity.

Edit: Oh yeah, and would mean people would tend to want their existing weapons \'upgraded\' with minor enchantments/pommel adjustments to tweak balance/better honed edges instead of just trading it in for a better one. People get attached to things, and weapons are as good a thing as any to cling to

[Adeli]

This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?

[Zorium]

This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?

To some degree your right, but then how do you appraise the quality of the weapon?

-Zorium

[Syzerian]

What I would like to see is each attack being a 2-4 hit combo, 2 attacks for power and 4 for speed. Then you could go to a combat trainer and learn certain comboes which are made up of 3 different attacks high, mid, and low. These comboes would then be assigned to hotkeys and you should be able to chain up attacks for the next combat turn like in KotOR. If you have enough money you could hire the services of a private trainer to make your own comboes and do things like trade out moves for special abilities and each special abaility would take up a certain amount of move slots.
And ofcourse based on stats you would be able to block and dodge and the such.
Turn based comboes look so much better than 2 people just sitting there looping the same move over and over.

[Snut]

@ Syzerian

Wouldn\'t the number of combos you could squeeze into a round be really heavily dependant on the intertia of the weapon? I like the idea of combos though, if done well they make combat look really nicely choreographed and funky. Prince of Persia made me feel really good about my frantic and scared button mashing, I\'d love to see a less platformy game do that...

@ Adeli

This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?

I agree. I don\'t want numbers. The problem is that in order for me to roleplay, I often need access to information my character has, but which I do not. I point out I\'m not very good at roleplaying, but I do try . For most adventuring characters, the quality of a weapon or a piece of armour (as I guess this applies just as strongly to armour as weapons) is likely to be an important deciding factor in whether they trade in their old one for new. Not all claymores are created equal, but neither do they come with handy numbers attached

Not having a GM handy to describe your character\'s impression of the weapon in a nice manner, the game needs to supply at least some of that information. Numbers are the traditional method. Brilliantly detailed modelling and texturing of individual swords that I can peer at for faults might be another, but a lot harder to do well.

Numbers just don\'t cut it in all, they foul up the suspension of disbelief something chronic for me at least. I know there\'s another thread on adopting a numberless system throughout PS here , but if that isn\'t possible I\'d still love to see weapon stats  hidden - whilst still giving you enough information to make decisions for your character.

[Jaakon]

No numbers!

Just do it like in real life, test it!

[Snut]

As Xandria suggested previously in that \'No more numbers\' thread, it would be great if you could test it in a shop or had some kind of trial period with the weapon first. Let your character swing the weapon a few times, take a few pot shots at a practise dummy. But even then you\'d have to give some kind of indicator or how hard you\'re hitting - perhaps the dummy could judder more as you hit it harder. The speed of your swing and your accuracy with the weapon would be easily visible. Buying the weapon and then taking it out on a \'live\' test run, though...

I mean, would you want to shell out hard earned tria for a weapon, only to learn through the rather dangerous business of testing it on suitably aggressive critters that it\'s actually a bit useless? Especially if you\'re playing a weaponsmith or experienced fighter who really should have known better the moment they picked it up in a shop.

Maybe a better guide would be the price of the weapon, but who\'s going to rank weapons by price, and with what criteria? Does damage affect price more or less than speed, or durability, or the opulance of the filigree on the pommel?

What\'s to stop both NPCs and players selling weapons at inflated or ridiculously low prices, through ignorance or averice or generosity? To fix prices artificially makes no sense and removes a lot of richness from the game, and balancing the weapon prices so that certain types of characters paid less for more combat-effective weapons could be a nightmare.

I like the idea of having to test weapons, but I can\'t see it working unless there\'s some kind of sandbox in which to play with them, as well as the option to return the weapon for a full refund. That doesn\'t make much sense in the game setting though.

[Tulfutzian]

Someone mentioned \"familiarity\", that sounds pretty good. Maybe if you would use for long enough a certain type of weapon you could gradually see it\'s \"numbers\", or some disguised stats and you could compare it to another weapon you have knowledge of.