Author Topic: Kran reproduction  (Read 10942 times)

ShadowForm

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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2004, 07:53:25 am »
Somewhat related to reproduction and lightly touched on in this topic was the reproduction rate.  Something very important to look at.

Given their nature as thing made of rock, the stereotype would indicate that they may live extremely long lives.  Thought diverges in two directions here:
1) That they were, and always will be, magically created
2) That they are created with the ability to reproduce in some way.

The first option means that (given their lack of powerful magical ability) they are probably created mostly as servants, workers, etc by wizards of other races.  This would make them closer to \'golems\' or animate objects rather than actual life forms (and again, looking at stereotypes) more likely to be ageless (ie - they live until killed, destroyed, starvet, etc).  The fact that they eat does not diminish the odds of this path, since even inanimate things (cars, for instance) need some sort of fuel to survive.  Of course, I don\'t think that this is the way that people are leaning towards as far as the canon law.

The second method is the one everyone\'s been talking about.  If they reproduce the stereotype again leads to believe that they do die after time (several hundred years, maybe?  Possibly as low as forty, since they would be \'born\' fully developed).

The main thing to look at here is lifespan.  If they have a low reproduction rate and short lifespans, they would go extinct.  A high reproduction rate and a long lifespan, they would flood the country unless their death rate (through falls, war, etc) was extremely high.
If each individual Kran can reproduce every five years and live for even 50, that\'s 8-10 over the course of their life.
Compare this.  Humans (with weaker bodies and only minor medical access through magic) probably live 40-50, with each pair producing one child every 15 months or so.  Or, four children over five years.  Combine with a 15-year maturation period before being able to reproduce, need for a second to reproduce.  I did the math (ignoring inbreeding, assuming that numbers matched perfectly for male/female couples).  It got pretty complicated on the human side of the chart, but I think I got everything right.  Starting with two population each, at the end of fifty years of reproduction with no early deaths or miscarraiges on either side, there would be over 1,000 Kran and only 130 humans.  
Math: (time measured in five year increments, for the first fifty years of any set)
Kran - (Pop. x 2)
Human - Three empty spaces (maturation period)
((Pop. / 2) * 4) + Pop.
This assumes that, basically, every woman has a child almost every year from age 15 to 50, with no miscarraiges (resulting in 35 children).  If you go with natural death/miscarraige statistics, the population difference might be closer to 100 or even 75 to 1,000.

The point of this is that without a maturation period or need for a partner, Kran possess the potential for explosive growth even with a 1 per five years.  Of course this doesn\'t rule those numbers out; maybe they practice controlled growth to limit strain on resources, or simply have no drive to reproduce (somewhat of a possibility).  One interesting story line for the game would be a sort of witch-hunt / pogrom against Kran out of fear that they could quickly overpower any other kingdom.
Alternately, they need an extremely high mortality rate.  In the bit about them on the Settings page, it says they\'re somewhat susceptible to cracking, breaking, etc - is it possible that accidental falls limit their number significantly, that a lack of parental instincts greatly reduce the actual number of new Kran, or so forth.

Hmm...  I like Kran.  A lot, now that I think of it.
Grayface
Just another Kran...  for now.

Trying to become a sage about the Kran.

Under the moon

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« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2004, 08:29:15 am »
Not to rain on anybodies parade, but what if kran don\'t reproduce at all?  Bare with me on this, I like the ideas of kran reproduction (I kinda helped start this thread), but we also need to discuss all options.  

So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist?  They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce.  If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.

In other words, the kran that are living now are the same kran Talad made originally, and will be the same kran in the future.

Maybe all the kran could be hibernating in the soil to accommodate population fluctuations.  All kran would be in hibernation until a player \'created\' one.  He would then rise from the ground and begin his adventure.  
How\'s that for a unique race?

ShadowForm

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« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2004, 09:19:58 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Under the moon
Not to rain on anybodies parade, but what if kran don\'t reproduce at all?  Bare with me on this, I like the ideas of kran reproduction (I kinda helped start this thread), but we also need to discuss all options.  

So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist?  They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce.  If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.

In other words, the kran that are living now are the same kran Talad made originally, and will be the same kran in the future.

Maybe all the kran could be hibernating in the soil to accommodate population fluctuations.  All kran would be in hibernation until a player \'created\' one.  He would then rise from the ground and begin his adventure.  
How\'s that for a unique race?

Nope.  The Planeshift guide clearly states that Kran reproduce.  Specifically, \"Also, the way in which they reproduce is incompatible with all other races: there are no half-breed Kran.\"
Grayface
Just another Kran...  for now.

Trying to become a sage about the Kran.

Lordbug

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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2004, 05:58:38 pm »
*uff* lots of stuff to read!

All this reproduction thingy... you made it so complicate.
\"Think simple\" someone said (can\'t remember who did...)

Ever seen scy fiction movies, TV programs or games?

How do the machines repruduce?
They gather enough material of what they are made of and inside/outside make another just like or better than the 1st one. Now that I\'m thinking about it, Krans (if this is correct) evolve faster than any other living being!
Or maybe they reproduce by mitosis (is it spelled correctely?) not sexual reprodoction, like certain microorganisms and some complex beings.
When a Kran thinks it\'s time to reproduce, maybe it stays at home for some weeks (if Kran\'s reproduction is made this way it\'s very slow) or maybe a month. But, \'coz it takes so long, maybe it\'s wrong...

Quote
\"Also, the way in which they reproduce is incompatible with all other races: there are no half-breed Kran.\"


That means there\'s no \"fun\" to Krans :D (poor Krans)
\'till now everything suits in my theorys

___


Quote
So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist? They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce. If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.


If something doesn\'t die of old age, doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t repruduce.
Think of hydras (an almost microorganism that can\'t die by aging, human work...) and they reproduce.

___


I\'ll research the subject... I mean not Krans reproduction, but possible ways of reproduction.


(if the post is a bit unorganized, it\'s because I was typing a thing and another thing comes to the mind and you have to write it quickly... I think you know the feeling)
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Ulf Kleppe

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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2004, 08:29:24 pm »
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?

Lordbug

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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2005, 10:50:31 pm »
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would this make kran intrinsically good miners?

If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.

I researched about reproduction (saw some strange ones and some made up) but there wasn\'t things considerable to be relevant to this thread
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Feran

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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2005, 10:54:29 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Lordbug
Quote
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?

If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.

I researched about reproduction (saw some strange ones and some made up) but there wasn\'t things considerable to be relevant to this thread


I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?

They should roll against wisdom to be able to mine :)

- F

Seytra

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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2005, 11:11:25 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Feran
Quote
Originally posted by Lordbug
Quote
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?

If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.

I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?


I\'m not sure about that. It may be both ways. On one hand, it certainly is like you said. On the other hand, the sheer quantity of rock might be sufficiently overwhelming to prevent every but the most philosophic of Krans from even thinking about it. Furthermore, Kran require minerals to function, so they\'ll have to mine, albeit not for the ores that are mined commonly by other species. They might even find it rather amusing that the other species mine these things in such ridiculous quantities, especially since they don\'t even eat them.

This could make for an interesting quirk in Kran society, actually: like there are vegetarians / vegans IRL, there could be anti-miners in Kran society, who wish to \"not abuse the rocks of life\". :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2005, 11:14:31 pm by Seytra »

Skylander

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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2005, 07:44:06 pm »
A long while ago scientist have found out that lifeforms can be silicon based  just as they can be carbon based and that they wouldn\'t be surprised if a silicon based lifeform was found on this planet.  Now silicon based lifeforms dont have to be hard as rocks like for us ,  we\'re carbon based so that dont mean we have to be hard as diamonds or coal.  So I would theorize that being that Kran evolved from a harsh environment and are well suited to it, their skin is probably composed of 2 layers.  The lower layer would be a thick, tough,  rigidly flexible skin that is alot like rhinocerous skins.  The upper layer is sorta grown like skin or fur and this upper layer is what gives the kran it\'s hard stony like appearance. Very tiny crystals grow from the rhino like skin giving  the Kran a stony or stucco like feel and appearance.  Now if you were to look at the skin under a magnafying glass or microscope, you\'ll see something like a quartzy like cobblestone pavement.  This cobblestone effect allows for the Kran to have it\'s flexibility  while at the same time the crystals protect the Kran from envionmental hazards (heat, water), blades, blunt force and points.  The Kran aren\'t fast movers due to the stiffness of their lower rhino skin.  Now that Kran must ingest stone or what ever they ingest, there must be a delivery system in place to replace the vital material throughout their body and that would mean a digestive system and blood vessels.  So if you do successfully crack open a Kran ,  it will bleed.  Now reproduction wise,  I would suppose a pair of Kran would each excrete a clay like ball in which one of them knead both balls together activating the life process.  Once kneaded this bigger ball develops a hard protective shell.  Once it has developed enough ,  a fully developed  very small Kran hatches from it.  It will take a long time for a small Kran to grow to adult size  but they will always be fully independant and able like their adult counterpart.  Now the clear crystals you see on various parts of Kran such as their chest,  these are grown over time and are pretty much like the same deal with antlers on antelope and various other animals.  It may be a way of attracting another Kran for courtship.  The bigger and nicer crystals you have growing on you ,  the more desirable you are.  Cloudy and deformed crystals are a sign of a sick Kran.

Lordbug

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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2005, 09:19:39 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Quote
Originally posted by Feran
Quote
Originally posted by Lordbug
Quote
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?

If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.

I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?


I\'m not sure about that. It may be both ways. On one hand, it certainly is like you said. On the other hand, the sheer quantity of rock might be sufficiently overwhelming to prevent every but the most philosophic of Krans from even thinking about it. Furthermore, Kran require minerals to function, so they\'ll have to mine, albeit not for the ores that are mined commonly by other species. They might even find it rather amusing that the other species mine these things in such ridiculous quantities, especially since they don\'t even eat them.

This could make for an interesting quirk in Kran society, actually: like there are vegetarians / vegans IRL, there could be anti-miners in Kran society, who wish to \"not abuse the rocks of life\". :)


I was just about to say that, the human vegetarians and so on. Or a Kran could be just like me: it doesn\'t eat rock \'coz it doesn\'t like it :P


Quote
A long while ago scientist have found out that lifeforms can be silicon based just as they can be carbon based and that they wouldn\'t be surprised if a silicon based lifeform was found on this planet. Now silicon based lifeforms dont have to be hard as rocks like for us , we\'re carbon based so that dont mean we have to be hard as diamonds or coal. So I would theorize that being that Kran evolved from a harsh environment and are well suited to it, their skin is probably composed of 2 layers. The lower layer would be a thick, tough, rigidly flexible skin that is alot like rhinocerous skins. The upper layer is sorta grown like skin or fur and this upper layer is what gives the kran it\'s hard stony like appearance. Very tiny crystals grow from the rhino like skin giving the Kran a stony or stucco like feel and appearance. Now if you were to look at the skin under a magnafying glass or microscope, you\'ll see something like a quartzy like cobblestone pavement. This cobblestone effect allows for the Kran to have it\'s flexibility while at the same time the crystals protect the Kran from envionmental hazards (heat, water), blades, blunt force and points. The Kran aren\'t fast movers due to the stiffness of their lower rhino skin. Now that Kran must ingest stone or what ever they ingest, there must be a delivery system in place to replace the vital material throughout their body and that would mean a digestive system and blood vessels. So if you do successfully crack open a Kran , it will bleed. Now reproduction wise, I would suppose a pair of Kran would each excrete a clay like ball in which one of them knead both balls together activating the life process. Once kneaded this bigger ball develops a hard protective shell. Once it has developed enough , a fully developed very small Kran hatches from it. It will take a long time for a small Kran to grow to adult size but they will always be fully independant and able like their adult counterpart. Now the clear crystals you see on various parts of Kran such as their chest, these are grown over time and are pretty much like the same deal with antlers on antelope and various other animals. It may be a way of attracting another Kran for courtship. The bigger and nicer crystals you have growing on you , the more desirable you are. Cloudy and deformed crystals are a sign of a sick Kran.



Somethings you said... I think I read that in some place...
Anyway, that\'s an interesting theory...

But instead of guessing we could just pick some cameras and follow some Krans for a year or two like the BBC guys or ask one... lol... I\'m very sleepy, normally I just say nonsence :P

Ok, really: I do think that theory is great...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 09:21:23 pm by Lordbug »
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Seytra

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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2005, 09:25:34 pm »
Skylander, your proposal is interesting, but it also is very much like conventional reproduction, and I wanted to move away from that. Heck, except the actual reproductive process, it is exactly like conventional reproduction: growing up, etc..
I think Kran should be substantially different, both in look as well as in all other aspects of life. This means reproduction should be much more different than just genderless. So should be growing up. And their society. In fact, their society will be very different if there are neither partner-bonds nor attractivity (sexual or otherwise).
Natural selection, if it actually is present within Kran, considering their creation, would be accomplished by the Kran finding the best rock, and actually being able to reach and protect it. Diversity would be accomplished by the natural differences in the rock. There is no real requirement for two pertners, and therefore there shouldn\'t be two.
I wouldn\'t like it if Kran were just \"humans that happen to look like rock\". Granted, this would make roleplaying a Kran much more easy, but it\'d also take much of the novelty and challenge out of it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 09:29:10 pm by Seytra »

Lordbug

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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2005, 01:07:20 pm »
The devs want the game to be realistic, the things have to be  believeble(?)... So I think Skylander\'s theory is great, it\'s acceptable and adapted to PS world.
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Walzmyn

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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2005, 11:00:24 pm »
If ya\'ll have ever read Terry Pratchett - in his world (Discworld) Trolls are made of rock. They have diamonds for teeth and think Heaven is \'down\'

But anyway, in one book you get a bit better look at their society and they refer to their young as \"pebbles\" and death occurs as they simply get slower until they, umm, rejoin the landscape. I\'m thinking something might be borrowed here.

as for the origional post of depositing \'seeds\' onto rocks, why could this not include 2 Kran? Just because there are no sexes does not mean cloneing is the only means of reporduction and you need some way to produce varity.

(edit) ahh, OK, after posting I found the next two pages of replies which negate some of my post. oops.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 11:02:20 pm by Walzmyn »

Black_rose

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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2005, 12:31:22 am »
you do know that what really happened was their is female kran but the no gender thing is a stereo type.... kran get pissed about that... it\'s the real world equivilent of telling a black man ti get your bags cuz u think he is a bell hop :rolleyes:
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Seytra

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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2005, 01:42:54 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Black_rose
you do know that what really happened was their is female kran but the no gender thing is a stereo type.... kran get pissed about that... it\'s the real world equivilent of telling a black man ti get your bags cuz u think he is a bell hop :rolleyes:

I don\'t understand what this is supposed to tell me...

@ Lordbug: I didn\'t say it wasn\'t adapted to PS and also not that it was bad. I however don\'t think it is that much more believable than my theory, it\'s just much more like the conventional way, and thus it\'s more convenient and less of a challenge. However, I don\'t think that makes my theory worse. I\'m not arguing this way because it\'s my theory, BTW. Instead, it simply is my strong belief that Kran should be very very different, in any possible aspect, and my theory IMO emphasizes this much more than Skylander\'s, as I already said in my post.

@ Walzmyn: I have never read Terry Pratchett, and I didn\'t know about the things you\'re referring to. I came up with this absolutely independently, and ideas aren\'t patentable yet (but maybe soon, see my sig).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 01:44:17 am by Seytra »