Thoughts on co-existance.

[Merdarion]

It all depends on the GM, with just a few minutes of work, you made out of the easy to beat Dragon a enourmous thread.

In my adventures the knight,  actually DID kill the Dragon (of course not alone, and DID save the lady, but only after a huge campaign, full of sacrifices.

[Draklar]

Well I mean system on its own. There are some that allow you to grow overpowered, while in others it is very hard to kill real beasts even in party of four very experienced adventurers... and even if you do, you most likely end up changed on the inside (mental problems).

[Denivi]

Only things I could interact with were my friends, pencil, paper and dice. Rest was imagination. I believe PS has more to actually interact with.

And saying you need all those features to actually be your character is nonsense.

You contradict yourself.  Paper maintains char state. Pencil provides a mechanism to modify that state. Dice (et al) provide a stimulus for modification.

You then keep saying that PS doesn\'t need such things. No need to have state, no need to modify state, no source of stimulus.

I\'m totally baffled.  What you describe is already done, and it\'s called \"AIM\"... not PlaneShift.   PlaneShift involves char state. Any doubts, press \"i\" for inventory, or \"T\" for stats.  Combined, those are your sheet of paper - the char\'s state. That state is intended to have impact on game play. And, that game play is intended to have impact on the state.  Remove that state, and you merely have an \"avatar\" based AIM...  and from many of the (well typed) \"Use your imagination!\" posts, you really wouldn\'t need the avatars, either.

And that\'s fine - it isn\'t wrong by any means.  But that model is completely contrary to PlaneShift\'s current implementation path.  Sorry.  Toons have state - the devs spent a bit of time implementing it (via inventory and skills) for a reason. The ability to modify that state is also implemented, again rendering your view as not appropriate - once such state is introduced as authoritative, then that\'s it.   I\'m not saying you\'re wrong - but one of you (either you, or the devs) must be, since inclusion of state in the game pretty much negates the \"stateless\" concepts you mention.  If your arguments are correct, then \"state\" (e.g. player stats, skills, inventory, mobs, combat, spells, and even position in the world) need to be removed. Immediately. All of those things demand state, and flatly contradict the various stateless models that have been proposed.  

Coexistence between the two is not appropriate, since both will always contradict each other whenever there is overlap.  \"I\'m a master swordsman!\" works in a stateless model... but is contradicted by a sword skill of rank 1.  \"I made you a fine sword to fight the evil (insert foe)!\" works in the stateless model - but is contradicted by (a) lack of such sword in inventory, and (b) lack of such sword\'s impact in combat, since it cannot be used in combat against the foe.  And arbitrarily inventing a foe who is \"just outside town\" (quite valid in a stateless model) is contradicted by, when you get just outside town, there\'s nothing there.  You\'re still free to battle this foe that doesn\'t exist relative to the game state, but again... any result of this battle will be contradicted by the game state - as far as game state is concerned, it never happened, there is no result.

You need to pick one. And from what I can tell, the stateless model isn\'t it.  The game involves state - a piece of paper. Remove that paper, or introduce a 2nd paper that contradicts the authoritative one - and the gaming model fails.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Denivi
You contradict yourself.  Paper maintains char state. Pencil provides a mechanism to modify that state. Dice (et al) provide a stimulus for modification.

You then keep saying that PS doesn\'t need such things. No need to have state, no need to modify state, no source of stimulus.

That\'s hardly contradicting
Do I have to explain how in both you are given basic tools and how much you\'ll get roleplaying out of it depends on you?
Me and bunch of other people from this community were roleplaying on irc. All we needed was system (most of all dice one). You can do same in PS, easily.

[Merdarion]

In PS I have graphics (good ones /me winks at Devs), nice ambient music, inventory, even monsters I can hunt down with my friends and huge areas to explore

You didnt read that right.

I am constantly telling to use your imagination to fill the holes.

And for the sword not there,
1.Buy a sword
2.go up to a smithy
3.Do so as if you were smithing a sword
4.there is the sword

And the Foe you are talking about could just be a rogue or a (Damn forgot the name of this huge creature with the, .. Ahh Tsefusang) Tsefusang,

And if you are RPing a swordsman, you will surely train, wont you?

Good now my last word for today, USE IMAGINATION TO FILL THE GAPS.

[Kaseijin]

darklar... yes you can play on irc sure... that is extanding the possibilities of that software..using the program beyond its original intentional function.
But to gather in tavern in PS with couple of close friends and then playing some game of your own with some system of your own... which no one beyond the circle of friends can understand ... well that\'s kind of misusing PS.  It\'s like pulling a car with horses...
weird but i think appropriate metaphore.

maybe what i am trying to say all along...to use two parellel systems...the PS and your own... doesn\'t work...
if  (currently) there isn\'t a capability to blacksmithing .... i think it\'s best not to pretend that you can make weapon. Cause once you do... you\'re not playing the same game as everyone else.

Some smaller things can be used without distancing yourself from other players...like imaginary food or drink.
but anything beyond that....no

I mean you could still pretend you\'re mighty enchanter...that\'s ok.... but pretenending to cast spells that don\'t exist....that\'s not playing the same game...

[Denivi]

All we needed was system (most of all dice one). You can do same in PS, easily.

In other words, you needed a means of maintaining (includes tracking and modifying) state.

I\'m not arguing over if it\'s valid or not - it clearly is. What you seem to miss is that once a given state is implemented in-game, you cannot track it with a second source - the game\'s definition of your player\'s \"state\" must be authoritative.

Again, anywhere there is overlap, the game\'s version of \"state\" must be considered authoritative.  Anything outside the defined scope of that state is natural for what you suggest - it is, as far as the game is concerned, stateless.  Again, sword skill (as a dumb example) - if there is no sword skill implemented in the game state, then it\'s fair game for the imagination. Once it is tracked, however, the game must be authoritative, since *it* is the definition according to the game.   I can easily claim that the guy in the magic shop is a master sword trainer before he is implemented, because his existence (or lack thereof) is outside the scope of the game\'s state. Once the game implements a guy in the magic shop, however, my ability to ad-hoc add new attributes to him is severely restricted - I can no longer claim him to be a sword trainer, because the game defines him as not being so... and that *is* the definition that the other 9 billion players will see.

Player death serves as an even more trivial example of why the two cannot overlap. Go pick a fight with a Brigand, and fight him toe-to-toe.  Your master swordsman will make quick work of his foul prey, and the Brigand will lose. In-Game representations of the event will be dramatically different, however...  including but not limited to your corpse being laid out in the dirt, followed by your not being there *at all* after it pops you to the DR.  You can still RP a victory and that the Brigand was defeated, and you survived without a scratch - but in doing so, you flatly contradict the state as defined by the game - namely, that the other 5 people in your party are stuck waiting for you to run your ass back from the City, watching a Brigand stand around with 99% health.

PlaneShift isn\'t an RPG, or an MMPORG.  PlaneShift is a state management system, that manages your paper, pen, and dice.  Once the paper is used to track something, it must be authoritative in how we, as players, perceive that something.  Otherwise, we each have our own sheets of paper, about ourselves (which is fine), and also about each other... and no two will match... if they are allowed to overlap in what they define, they must by definition eventually contradict.

As a paper-based DM, you should certainly know this.

[buddha]

This thread seems to have shifted from its original purpose. Well, things evolve...

I am a role-player (Mulla) whose best friend is a power leveler (Scotho), we co-exist fine.  In fact, he\'s happy to go and find glyphs and $$ for me as long as I help him when I\'m on.  Our conversations run half rp/ half \"where do I kill more rats?\".  It\'s possible to ask that question in character, by the way.

How do we make this a place that is strongly rp?  Well, start a parade, announce storytelling in the tavern, begin political campaigns.  One of the posts mentioned quashing a political conspiracy.  Why don\'t you START a political conspiracy?  I\'d be delighted to get involved as I imagined Mulla as an alchemist/seer with questionable morals anyway.

How about we start a mafia?  Organised crime?  Organised police?  We can self-appoint.  Real societies begin by people suddenly declaring themselves in power.  Declare yourselves the Sheriffs and attempt to stop dueling in the plaza.  Are you waiting for a certificate from the GMs?  I think nothing would make them happier than the society shaping itself.

Of course, how exactly does one do this in the current version?  Well, you need some sort of power to finagle. (how do you spell that?)  One example of that is to get wealthy citizens together and buy up hundreds of weapons, then sell them cheap.  BOOM: Economy.  Get everyone going to you instead of whats-his-face and suddenly you have power you can bargain with.

Then you get to be mayor simply because everyone knows who you are.

This was part of my plan, but I\'m on a Mac and can\'t play for a while.  These are things that can be done right now to set the tone for the game.  When things like crafting get implemented, it will get even easier.

Right now, the RP\'s are being limited by imagination.  Why are there no power grabs in a city WITH NO LOCAL GOVERNMENT!  Have some imagination.  Who\'s going to say to you: \"No, you can\'t be the Chief Financial Officer of Hydlaa!\"?  If you\'re part of the group that has most of the money, you ARE the CFO.

Why are we waiting for someone ELSE to do it?

So, let\'s get on it!  When I\'m able to log back in, I will happily respect the self-declared Hydlaa County Department of Rodent Control.

[Kiva]

Roleplayers... Powerplayers... Noobs... Did you guys actually know that it\'s the same thing? The only thing that differs between these is their approach to things. Where a roleplayer says \"Hello there, fair traveller\", a powerplayer says \"im busy go away\", and a noob says \"giev moneys plz\". But they\'re all doing the same thing really, they\'re playing a game. They\'re being someone they\'re not in real life, and they all do it because they think it\'s fun. Don\'t get me wrong, but I\'m not sure noobs run around halfnaked begging for money because they\'re forced to by society. They just think it\'s fun, just like powerplayers think it\'s fun to be powerful. And is it not true that roleplayers also always are \"the master chef\" or \"the master blacksmith\"? (At least I\'ve never seen any roleplayer ever wanting to be \"the apprentice shoepolisher\" or that kind of thing)
Their only problem is that they want to be a master chef, they just don\'t want to do what it takes to become one, and yes, this is what powerplayers do want to. They just don\'t have what it takes to live out the character they\'re playing.

If you guys just learn to accept that we\'re all the same in one way or another, we\'ll all get along very nicely, and you\'ll learn that even though it might not seem like it at first glance, powerplayers and noobs are actually in character as well to some extent, unless they\'re talking OOC stuff (and you RP guys do that as well, mind you). They might just tell you in a diffrent way than you might tell someone else. So guys, play nicely and stop complaining about how wrong one thing or another is, because it\'s not wrong.

(If this post made no sense whatsoever, it\'s because I\'m tired... I might re-write it tomorrow)