to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)

[derwoodly]

I am trying to imagin the worst, but since I normally do not play this way, I am sure my worst is not the actuall worst there is.  Heh, I read that article that Ragnar posted,  I know I have not imagined the worst.

The system you are describing, would make Player killing difficult with the conditions you have described.  Yack Blacktooth would have to be very selective if he really wanted to have some fun while bahaving badly. First, he would have to attack players with a skill level over 10.  Since you can not see level he would have to go to an area with monsters that require that level of skill to kill.  Second,  you mentioned that guards would be largly human players just looking for an excuse to put Yack in shackles.  I suspect there  will be times that there are not that many guards on watch.  Having an alt with a good alignment would be helpfull.  I would have to log on Greenwood Goodhand and kill rats in the sewers untill I notices a time when guards were scarce.  You might think guards will be on duty all the time, but I think they would get bored watching newbie\'s kill rats all day long.  So, when they do Yack Blacktooth will apear out of thin air (logon) and kill quickly then log off before he is tagged by a guard.  

Luck can also help out.  Sometimes accidents do happen.  By standing arround in the sewers player might accidently attack Blacktooth instead of monster.  Now he can kill the newbie without  a PK flag at all.

Sometimes the jail would be worth it.  If a player is holding one of those priceless mugs, then I may want to kill the player loot the Mug and let the court decide my fate.  Of cource I would make sure not to be online for the next two weeks, just to cause the victom more pain.  What would be the maximum sentance?  What if I loot and  and not log back on for a month?  Does the GM just remove the item from my inventory.

Festivals would be mayham.  If a large scale event were to happen, like an election, Blacktooth and anyother thug would be there in full battle gear to mow down the crowds!  

On the issue with logs, I do not know for sure but I think it would slow the sever down.  The server has to keep track of evey players and NPC\'s, stats, actions, location, buffs, dots, equipment, quest status, and chat commands.  All of this is done in RAM,  In order to have a log of the events, the server would have to save all of this data to harddrive.  If the computer saves all of this data once a minute to the hard drive then you will have a log with only updated information every minute.  The log would look like this.
12:30 22/6/2005-- Blacktooth, Inv-- two rusty long swords, loc-- 01001001,111010, commands- nill
12:31 22/6/2005-- Blacktooth, Inv-- two rusty long swords, Mug of destruction, loc-- 01001011,111000 commands- bind wounds, chat-- Hahahah, foul smelling dwarf I have your Mug!

My point is this, if you want to tell what happend the server will have to save information on the hard drive not just keep it in ram memory.  Saving this will lag the server.  If it does it every minute it is possible to kill inbetween the minutes.  If it did it every second the lag would be considerable and looking a log that showed every second would be more like work, than playing a game, and GM\'s would not want to do it. the

[Rilar]

I suspect there will be times that there are not that many guards on watch.

You think about preventive security, dont you? I dont imagine guards on guard all the time, thats right. The \"watching\" does the machine by automatically marking, the hunting and catching is the duty of the guards.
So there is effectively no difference if Yack would pk in front of a guard or if the victim is the only witness (I do not refer on backstabbing here, I am talking about unfair duelling). In both cases he would be marked first and then hunted by guards... the only difference is the time to the guards need to catch him.

Sometimes accidents do happen.

It is impossible to create a system without the possibility to fail... But we can minimise this risk.

What if I loot and and not log back on for a month? Does the GM just remove the item from my inventory.

THAT is exactly why I proposed

(like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone.

and not beeing able to loot somebody.

What would be the maximum sentance?

Hm... lifelong compulsory labour? No idea... I dont have practical experience with this system yet

Festivals would be mayham. If a large scale event were to happen, like an election, Blacktooth and anyother thug would be there in full battle gear to mow down the crowds!

That would be fun! *just remembering the attack of the ulbers*

On the issue with logs, I do not know for sure but I think it would slow the sever down. The server has to keep track of evey players and NPC\'s, stats, actions, location, buffs, dots, equipment, quest status, and chat commands.

Not exactly. I asked a dev whether all actions are logged all the time. He answered me that this is not the case but when somebody does a /report on a specific player, everything from this moment will be logged about him. So I asked if an attack without challenge could be linked with the /report command and he approved. With that it could be possible to create a log only containing pk without challenge (also backstab) and maybe also stealing.. Just that what we need here

bye,
amogorkon

[Perkins]

It would actually be fairly simple.  Your \"evil\" character goes down into the sewers where there are no guards and begins killing newbies...  Newbie goes through the death realm and back to the surface.  When he walks past a guard, his client remembers that he had been killed, and pops up a query box, \"You were murdered by Yack Blacktooth, do you wish to report this crime?  Yes/No\"  If he clicks yes, then Mr. Blacktooth is now stuck in the sewers, marked as a criminal.  Backstab would be a good idea, as long as it only works if he manages to sneak up behind the other guy without being seen.  If he comes out of the sewers any nearby guards will grab him and toss him in jail.  If he stays in there, eventually the reward for his capture will become large enough that a headhunter will consider it to be worth the effort to go down there and hack him into kibble...  When he comes back from the death realm, the guards will be waiting to grab him and toss him into prison.  Either way, it\'s going to be bad for him.  If he\'s really strong and really fast, he might be able to get past the guards, but he\'d have to leave the civilized areas, or risk capture every time a guard wanders past.  If he leaves, the headhunters will eventually find him again.  If skills atrophy without practice, then you can go ahead and make a macro to do the prison work.  When you get out, you\'ll be a highly skilled miner/ditch digger/manure shoveler, but you\'ll have to spend some time honing your fighting skills again before you can go back to killing newbs.  It would become quite a lot like being a real outlaw.

The guards wouldn\'t have to be very smart to make this work.  A simple, \"see criminal, chase, grab\"  would be sufficient.  Make the guards faster than most players.  A smart player might be able to elude them for a while, but there are more of them than there are of him, and there are certainly a couple standing by the city gate...  So to truly escape he\'ll have to jump off the 100\' town walls...  Not fun...

[derwoodly]

@ Perkins: Fairly simple in my book is Pac Man.  Maybe for you the Justice system is simple, but for me Amog\'s sytem seems like a moving target.  

@ Amogorkon,  I thought I understood your system 5 or 6 posts ago.  Now I am lost.  This is the way I understand it too work now.

It all begins with the new option to attack other players without  them getting the option to decline.  Then several things can happen.

1) The victom escapes:
-- A log of the event is generated automatically by the server.  
-- The victom can complain but since nothing was stolen and they were not killed, no crime was commited.

2) The victom fights back and wins.  
-- Same results as 1, except some of the attackes money is droped from his corpse and is left on the ground.

3) The Victom fights back and scares the attacker off.
--Same result as 1.

4) The attacker wins:
-- The victom drops some bit of random loot but the rest is sent with him to the death realm.
-- A log is generated.
-- If a guard sees the attack they can chase the attacker down and capture him.
-- If no guards are arround the victom must report the crime.  After that a bounty is placed on the attackers head and any guard can arrest him.
-- If captured, The attacker waits up to two game days for a trail.
-- If a trial is not started with in the two days the attacker is free to go.
-- Once sentenced the attacker now has to do hard labor while serving there time.  When they get out after months of labor they will have forgoten most of what they new about sword fighting, but be very skilled at mining.

Given the above, Pking would not be much fun in PS, however I still maintain that I can kill several newbies and get out of town before they can post a complaint.  However I will not be able to ever return to town so I better make my crime spree pay off.  In general it would not be wise to use the non-duel option.

As an alternative, I might just be a big pest and loose battles on purpose, or run away alot.  I would still be disruptive to others game play.  

Another option would be to have a very good excuse. One that I thought would get me out of the jam come trial time.  Perhaps something about my victom being a con artist and a unreliable witness, and have a long list of prominate players testify in my behalf.

I can forsee a real problem if one guild gets powerfull enough to control the court system.  Or if one guild gets very large in size.  There members will PK with impunity because random chance will give good odds that  the jurry will be made of their guild members.

[Rilar]

Alright then. It seems we generally agree in the main points and only a few littlenesses are not clear yet.

@derwoodly

It all begins with the new option to attack other players without them getting the option to decline. Then several things can happen.

Yes, I think the same about 1), 2) and 3).
At 4) it seems we have different ideas.

The victom drops some bit of random loot

I think not about loot but about money. A certain amount (percentage) of money would be fairly enough, I think. With this it would be not much fruitful to pk newbies.

-- A log is generated.

The best means for the court to be fair and fast.

-- If a guard sees the attack

In this point there was another imagination. Mystiqq proposed a system similar to UO: The criminal is automatically marked the moment he does something against the law, no matter a guard was around or not. But probably the idea to

pop up a query box, \"You were murdered by Yack Blacktooth, do you wish to report this crime? Yes/No\"

from Perkins is better than the original idea.
But then your idea to instant mark when a guard is around (again based on its sightangle) should be implemented as well.

-- If captured, The attacker waits up to two game days for a trail.

That would be one solution... (Why did I ever mention the German justice   ) As I think about that, I have another solution: The question is how long an accused should wait for his trial.
For answering that question we must have in mind that there is only a trial for crimes which are not sanctioned from the software (backstabbing, pickpocketing,...).
1) The accused has nothing done so far, the lower limit for waiting is two ingame-days.
2) The accused is a known criminal and has a high crimecounter. The crimecounter drops over time (as I mentioned it some time ago). If it takes longer for the crimecounter to drop to nill than two days, the accused have to wait till his crimecounter is nill. That means, the security-custody is, in this case, also the execution of the punishment for the crimes already done.
For the trial there are again two options:
1) The trial will higher the crimecounter from the level it is the moment of the trial (after waiting in custody). (This is what I prefer)
2) The trial will set the crimecounter to a specified level, no matter how high the crimecounter was before.

-- If a trial is not started with in the two days the attacker is free to go.   -- Once sentenced the attacker now has to do hard labor while serving there time. When they get out after months of labor they will have forgoten most of what they new about sword fighting, but be very skilled at mining.

Yep, that is the idea.

However I will not be able to ever return to town

That is not right. There are three options to lower the crimecounter to zero and go back into town without beeing hunted.
-- try to get absolution in a temple (with money or something else)
-- doing good deeds (in form of quests, give beggars money, ...)
-- just wait till all your crimes were forgotten and forgiven (crimecounter-dropping)

Perhaps something about my victom being a con artist and a unreliable witness, and have a long list of prominate players testify in my behalf.

Good idea

I can forsee a real problem if one guild gets powerfull enough to control the court system.

Probably the two assessors are not only randomized but also anonymous? That would not only reduce the problem mentioned here but also reduce the pressure that results from beeing in a big guild (the problem stated beneath). But having anonymous assessors could also result in unfair punishment... Do you have any idea about this?

@ Perkins

If skills atrophy without practice, then you can go ahead and make a macro to do the prison work.

The idea is that you are not able to make a macro! Are you able to make a macro for the normal /dig in this game? I am not (but I`m neither a professional programmer). I imagine that making a makro for killing tefus is much easier than making a makro for digging...

It would become quite a lot like being a real outlaw.

Yep

The guards wouldn\'t have to be very smart to make this work. A simple, \"see criminal, chase, grab\" would be sufficient. Make the guards faster than most players. A smart player might be able to elude them for a while, but there are more of them than there are of him, and there are certainly a couple standing by the city gate... So to truly escape he\'ll have to jump off the 100\' town walls... Not fun...

Good idea

amogorkon

[Perkins]

Well now, attacking someone and not killing them could be a crime...  it\'s called assault.  Might also add \"public endangerment\" for the people who like to set traps and such in the main square.

Personally I think they system should try to be realistic.  The real world usually does a fairly good job, as long as the justice system is not corrupt.  Having the computer do the trials, and reserving human judgement for appeals should do a fair job of taking care of that.  Then it becomes a case of, \"Don\'t walk down any dark alleyways late at night.\"  And the conflict with real people would tend to enhance the experience, since you could hunt something that would actually have some brains...

The other thing to do would be to institute a \"Player Killer\'s Guild\" and allow open PK between members...  That would give people a chance to opt out if they weren\'t interested.

[derwoodly]

I grow weary of the this mental exercize.  Paxx stated that PS should be a grief free game.  So far I don\'t see how having this system based on the modern justice system you have layed out will do this.  To be fair, I don\'t see how PS current system will be grief free.  I have the following objections to your system that I would like to call \"modern justice PvP\"

You will have to explain this system to the same players that create guilds named the Eastsidekillers and that post questions like \"what are progresion points?\". This is not to say that those players are brain dead.  MMORPG\'s are not easy.  There already is a lot of information to take in: Race types, skill advancement, magic system, crafting system, fighting stances, death realm. Adding modern justice PvP to the mix just makes it harder.

Large guilds will exploit the system.  By killing lots of players at one time the system will be overwelmed, and by process of random selection some killers will be on jurys.  You can make the cases anonymos, but if they just vote not-guilty anytime they are in a trail they will get the results they want.

The PS game needs working doors, a good character creatoin system, and a million other things added to it.  The modern justice PvP system will be a long time in comming.

GM\'s have enought to do without burding them with conducting mock trials in a fantasy setting.  

I hope I have not left you with the feeling that I am closed minded about the idea.  I have tried to keep an open mind and envision how it could work.  Maybe I don\'t think it could work because our modern justice system is not working all that great.  Of cource that assesment is based on my location, which is California.

[Perkins]

You\'re misunderstanding my meaning.  I am not advocating trials with real people as judges, except possibly where there is a complicated situation, such as a feud going on.  What I meant was that the real-world system of reporting crimes, and then tracking and punishing criminals works fairly well.  That\'s not to say that everyone is completely safe all the time, but if they take some reasonable precautions, they\'ll probably be alright.

Large guilds couldn\'t exploit a computerized system.  Crimes couldn\'t be reported unless they\'d actually been committed.  When a criminal is caught, they would, therefore, be obviously guilty.  They could, of course, appeal to a GM if they think they\'ve been wronged...  But GMs are human, and they won\'t take kindly to people wasting their time.  

The explanation to the people who have a hard time understanding it is simple...  Attacking other players is generally against the law.  Don\'t do it without a good reason unless you wish to become an outlaw.

I agree.  The game does need other features first.  Operable doors would be nice, and, truth be told, I\'m getting a little bored killing nothing but rats, and everything else seems to chop me to pieces without too much effort...

On a side note, I must agree with your assessment of the California justice system.  The judges there, and in many other places unfortunately, don\'t seem to understand that their job is to evaluate cases based upon laws as written, not decide how they want a case to come out and then alter the laws to match.  Aggravating, isn\'t it?

[derwoodly]

If you want a system that insta teleports you to a wall of shame where you are shacked to the wall and passers by can pelt you with stones, then you would be describing the system I originally thought was being thought up.  I actually like the idea.  If you kill another player in a non-consentual duel or steal from them unsuccessfully then you should be teleported to the wall of shame.  

The reply I got originally to my interpretation of what was being said was that you could not roleplay the insta-teleport idea, and the wall of shame was just a list of bad guys.  Personally I think you can roleplay the insta-teleport.  Your hit over the head knocked unconcious by the guards and when you wake-up your in shackles.  Justice should work like this.  If you are not-guilty then you will somehow survive the stoning and will be set free.  This could happen after a 24 hour time period.  If your guilty then you will be killed by the stoning.

[Perkins]

That brings up a few questions...

Firstly, if you\'re not guilty, then how did you end up on the wall?  and how many innocent players will simply quit and not come back?

Secondly, the problem with the insta-teleport system is that if there\'s absolutely no way to ever get away with a crime, then what\'s the point in allowing them to be committed?  I mean, it could be fun to play an outlaw and try to outsmart the guards and the headhunters.  But the only people who would be interested in killing players if they get instantly punished would be griefers who like to kill newbies for fun...

[Rilar]

This discussion is not about something which can be done in a few weeks, I am fully aware of that.
It is good to think about such big systems before the trivial ones are implemented. We should know where we want to end...

The pvp-system as it is now is surely a good temporary solution, but it is far away from being ideal. And as I see it, the thing with instant punishment is also a temporary solution. And I think I made myself clear about that some posts before.

The judges there, and in many other places unfortunately, don\'t seem to understand that their job is to evaluate cases based upon laws as written, not decide how they want a case to come out and then alter the laws to match. Aggravating, isn\'t it?

The difference here is that the judges cant change the laws. The law is given and the force of the judges is limited to give a figure between 0 and 100. Where is the problem with that?
I also disagree that the proposed system is THAT difficult to understand. The rule is easy: If you brake the law, you will be hunted, probably catched and punished. Nothing more, nothing less. In the concrete situation it is not relevant to understand the odds and ends of the different cases and so on we are discussing here as long as the implementation is intuitive to use...

cu,
amogorkon

[derwoodly]

As they say the devil is in the details. Simple would be to let players do damage to anyone at anytime, and no other rules.  Acidently click attack instead of trade and oops sorry my sword is stuck in your skull, I am so sorry it just slipped.  

I envisioned your justice system starting out with a popup-- do you really want to attack (playername) without his/her consent?  Then clicking yes would emidiately flag you as a PKer.  This would eliminate the fireball into a crowd killer, but adds a level of complexity. Some players will not know that it is a bad idea to attack other players.  If the game allows it then it must be OK.  Then when a guard catches you and locks you up, players will not understand why they can not move.  This might lead to zone shouts like -- How do you get out of jail /spawn does not work.  I believe most will log off or go afk once in jail.

You sytem also involved pop up jurry selection.  I will be in a group of adventures exploring and a magical message will appear out of thin air requesting my presence back in Hydalla.  I supose that will be inta-teleported to the court and once the trail is over I will be insta-teleported back? Or just conduct the whole trial via telepathy.  I will be asked to pass judgement without know the accused or the victoms name, then click on a number between 0  and 100?  The whole trial will cause the group of adventures that I am traveling with to have to stop what they are doing and wait for me to finish so we can get back to what we were doing.

Sometimes there is a great deal of trash talking after someone has been pked.  The trial will provide a forum for this kind of chat, and the two jurrors and judge will be forced to listen to it in order to make a judgement.

All that being said, I am for a system that allows you to attack and steal from other players and be punished by some sort of public display.  I think it is good for roleplaying.  It adds color and depth to the world.  I would be more infavor of the modern justice system you are talking about if it was not so modern.  I don\'t like the trial idea.  I just don\'t think it fits with the fantacy setting.  Why not cut out the middle man and just make all crimes punishable by 24 hours of being stoned to death in the town square?  lower level player would die after only a few minutes of stoning and be trasported to the death realm.  Higher ones might last the whole 24 hours, then be released.  I would want to roleplay this and say that the ones who died were guilty and the ones who lived were inocent.  But that is just me.

[Perkins]

I agree, nix the human jury system.  It would be difficult to implement, and since you probably couldn\'t be brought to trial unless your were guilty, there really wouldn\'t be much point.  

Stoning in the public square isn\'t a bad idea, but personally I think the punishment should require them to actually do something.  That way it\'s actually a punishment, not just a period of time where they leave the game running and go do something else.

Perhaps an option for whether you want to allow your character to attack human players would be a good idea.  This would eliminate most accidents, and could be easily implemented in the client as a \"shoot, don\'t shoot\" toggle button.

[Rilar]

Then clicking yes would emidiately flag you as a PKer.

The idea to confirm the attack is really a good one. You could also be able to inable the popup in the options...
But I disagree with \"instant\"-flagging just by attacking. When you attack, it does not automatically mean that you are doing damage or even kill the attacked person. You could attack and stop it immediately, just to show your power...

I believe most will log off or go afk once in jail.

Yes, that`s why the \"forced labour\" should be implemented. But you are right: People have to be informed about their concrete situation and what they have to do.

I supose that will be inta-teleported to the court and once the trail is over I will be insta-teleported back?

No, thats not what I had in mind. I thought about an \"invitation\" to a certain time and place (plaza, for example). The invitation-popup should contain \"agreed\", \"declined\", \"propose another date\". And you should also be able to decline and change date afterwards.

I will be asked to pass judgement without know the accused or the victoms name, then click on a number between 0 and 100?

You go to your court-date and read the accusal. Perhaps there could also be a court where you can see and ask questions to the accused, but where he cant see you. Then you choose the number and you can go back to adventure.

The trial will provide a forum for this kind of chat, and the two jurrors and judge will be forced to listen to it in order to make a judgement.

A forum is a pretty good idea.. but forcing the jurrors and judge? I would not like to be the judge who has to hear the same story from the beginning to the end 100 times again and again...

I don\'t like the trial idea.

Perhaps we could make a compromise? We could keep the middle man but give him (the three persons, judge+jurors) the choice between the number-system (with automatic punishment) and the public punishment where the justice lies in the hands of the people... That would be one more thing to implement, but finally it would be agreeable for everyone.

bye,
amogorkon

Edit: The stoning could also be the punishment when there is no trial (because all jurrors declined, for instance).

[derwoodly]

First: a snipet from the PS Faq.

What will you do to prevent unwanted PvP?
 
  All PvP activity will require the approval in some fashion of both parties, whether it is stepping into an arena, agreeing to a duel, or participating in a guild war. If the other player doesn\'t agree and the first player attacks, guards and gods will stop that fight in such a way that attackers will be scared even to think to attack someone else.
 
Second: from Paxx.
So, figure out a system that is so enticing that it will convert a non-PKer to want to have this game be PK.

Based on those two comments, I figure that being able to pelt murderers and thieves with stones in public section of town might apeal to non-pkers.  

If you try to attack players without there consent then you should be labeled as a PKer. Why? because if you were honorable you would simply hit the duel button. If after a big pop up window apears and you still attack them or steal from them then you are at least attempting to greif them. Whether you you win or loose you will disrupt the other players world and they will see you as a griefer.  For this you should be labeled as one.  

Your capture and punishment, should be as fool proof as possible and involve as few players as possible. Why? because the victom will want revenge, and we all know revenge is best served instantly (ok, I just made that up, so not everyone would know it). If having to wait for players to organize a trial or a hunting party takes 5 minutes that will be five minutes the victom will stewing about the crime.  The victom should just have the attackers name stuck in \"pk list\" that they can open and click on the report crime button.  After that the pker, Yack Blacktooth will be teleported to the stockades.

To make the punishment some what painfull, the criminal would have to be online for the durration of the sentance (like 24 hours for instance).  For those 24 real online hours Yack would be chained to the wall of shame while a few NPC\'s would pelt him with stones.  Players could also throw stones as well.  To help out with the Yack just going afk and running PS in the back ground, I would add a death penalty.  If you die while shackled you go to the death realm and the crime clock is stopped.  Yack would need to go through the death realm and get back to the wall of shame to start the clock again.

I mentioned something about guilt determined by whether you live or die.  That was really a roleplay idea and had nothing to do with game mechanics.  Players who lived through the stoneing would be conisidered to be bessed by the gods and therefore not guilty of the crimes that they were charged of.  This \"feature\" eliminates the need for a trial.  All accused criminals are shackled and the gods determine there guilt.  For me this fits in a fantasy setting better then a two member Jurry.  As you might guess 99% of criminals would be guilty.

To make the PvP even more carebear, victoms would not loose any money. They would take it with them just as they do now.  You sugested that players loose a percentage of their holdings.  This would not be much  loot for a Pker, but it might agravate the victom since in PS you carry your life savings on you at all times. Perhaps a successful pickpockets attempt would work at getting tria from players.  Unsuccessfull ones would put you chained to the wall of shame (2 hours might be enough).

This is  PvP light and it really is not ment for you Amogorkon, you seem to want a system that allows you to play cops and robbers with GMs and player guards. Those systems are usually more fun for the \"robber\" than the cops.  PvP light is saposed to be fun for the cops and crafters.  This system could be adjusted by changing prison time, or allowing a percentage of loot to be dropped as you suggested.
[edit -made it a little bit more readable]