A Few Klyros Questions

[Mr. Dave]

While I try to think of a name for my Klyros character, I have a few questions about the implementation of this fascinating species.

1: Since Klyros are able to both fly (well, glide) and swim, shouldn\'t they naturally be fairly agile? I see that the Players\' Guide shows their base Agility at 55, less than for Ylians.

2: Will Klyros \"just fly\" or will they need to train a Flying skill?

3: Since there\'s already a Swimming skill, will Klyros need to train in this? Should they start with a level-advantage in Swimming, as the Ynnwn do in Body Development?

4: Since everyone thinks the Klyros are so cool, are we in danger of a Klyros overpopulation crisis?

Just wonderin\'...

[confused]

For the mean time I would have to say Yes, there will be a little overcrowding. It will drop off once their home lands towns, etc are created.

Some of us have been waiting for a long time for the Klyros to be added to the game, even in limited capacity. Though the Erik really out did himself with the Klyros model, giving a boost to the Klyros community.

Just to have the Klyros model finally is just wonderfull, no more need to use other race models and just simply messing around.

[Kiva]

1: Since Klyros are able to both fly (well, glide) and swim, shouldn\'t they naturally be fairly agile? I see that the Players\' Guide shows their base Agility at 55, less than for Ylians.

Sure, but could you point out where it says humans are less agile than the Klyros, simply because they don\'t have wings and can\'t all swim?

Let\'s see what really determines being Agile:

   1. Characterized by quickness, lightness, and ease of movement; nimble.
   2. Mentally quick or alert: an agile mind.

So basically, humans can easily be quicker, lighter and have easier movement than the Klyros. They still have to bash around with their wings when they run, and they can\'t squeeze into as many places as humans can. So they\'re not always as agile as you might think.


2: Will Klyros \"just fly\" or will they need to train a Flying skill?

There most likely will be a skill of some kind for it, either letting you glide better/longer, or just giving you the ability to do it. But Klyros\' can\'t fly, due to their fragile bones, but they can \"jump longer\", if you can call it that. However, I\'m not sure about the skill thing. That\'s something you\'d have to talk to the Rules department about.


3: Since there\'s already a Swimming skill, will Klyros need to train in this? Should they start with a level-advantage in Swimming, as the Ynnwn do in Body Development?

They can breathe underwater, but I\'m sure they - to some extent - still need to learn how to swim.


4: Since everyone thinks the Klyros are so cool, are we in danger of a Klyros overpopulation crisis?

Sure we are. It\'s the FOTM race.

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Gronomist
2: Will Klyros \"just fly\" or will they need to train a Flying skill?

There most likely will be a skill of some kind for it, either letting you glide better/longer, or just giving you the ability to do it. But Klyros\' can\'t fly, due to their fragile bones, but they can \"jump longer\", if you can call it that. However, I\'m not sure about the skill thing. That\'s something you\'d have to talk to the Rules department about.


3: Since there\'s already a Swimming skill, will Klyros need to train in this? Should they start with a level-advantage in Swimming, as the Ynnwn do in Body Development?

They can breathe underwater, but I\'m sure they - to some extent - still need to learn how to swim.

For Klyros\'s flight there would be a skill, the higher the longer they can fly for. You could call it extended jumping, but I see klyros as being able to fly quite high if they arn\'t carrying anything. Now you won\'t be able to really travel using this, unless you practised flying to perfection (would take a long time to do), but it will be useful for going up cliffs where other races would have to climb. Also, klyros will be able to jump off cliffs/buildings etc. and use this ability to slow themselves down before impact, negating damage effects if they pull it off.

As for swimming, being able to breathe underwater means that the character can never drown. Klyros will still need to practise swimming, as the swimming skill decides how fast you can swim   I\'m sure that there will be some nasty fish which can attack you while swimming in the future, so being able to swim fast is an advantage

[Seytra]

There has been an extensive discussion on the topic of Klyros full flight vs. gliding, in this thread.

And yes, I think Klyros will initially replace the Enki at the top of the popularity contest. However, once there is more detail inplemented rule-wise, their specific disadvantages will be more pronounced, evening this out IMO (see end of this post for details).

I think there need to be skills for both flight and swimming. Not only that, but endurance and other physical properties need to be developed to become proficient in flight.

If you can breathe underwater, but can\'t swim, you\'ll have to walk, which is quite slow, even without considering the extra distance to the bottom and up again, and also disregarding the fact that lakes tend to be quite muddy and hard to walk through.

I agree with Gronomist on the agility issue. Wings will be extremely annoying when you\'re trying to move through the average medieval forest. PS won\'t have the extensive forests that were present in RL medieval times due to the relatively small size and large population of the stalactite compared to a RL planet, but there will still be some. And while walking, they would also be a bit of a drawback unless you can
1) fold them tightly around yourself or
2) flap them to propell you, making running way quicker, though only on terrain that allows for it.

Therefore, I think movement speeds would be quite extreme for Klyros in comparison to all other races: extremely fast on plains / wide roads, extremely slow in forests.

Summarising, Klyros disadvantages are:
No heavy armor
Fragility
Wingedness

This means:
Not top choice for fighting due to being easily damaged
Due to size and wingedness not top choice for rogues, either
Due to wingedness not good for hunting
Not top choice for mages, either, as there are races more gifted in it

This leaves them to be a reasonable choice for only a few border professions:
Fisher
Explorer
Artist

[Clover]

Originally posted by Seytra
This means:
...
Due to size and wingedness not top choice for rogues, either
...

Their potential ability to glide makes escape and evasion easier, it would just take a more creative twist to be a Klyros rogue as they couldn\'t be a breaking and entering type rogue very easily.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Clover

Originally posted by Seytra
This means:
...
Due to size and wingedness not top choice for rogues, either
...

Their potential ability to glide makes escape and evasion easier, it would just take a more creative twist to be a Klyros rogue as they couldn\'t be a breaking and entering type rogue very easily.

Alright, you can\'t get surrounded that easily, so pickpocketing or shoplifting would be good professions for them. And they might be able to sneak up on their targets if they are murderers, erm, I mean assassins, by flight, as long as the target isn\'t in a house.
However, you can, even without binding, imprison a Klyros in a room that doesn\'t have a roof if the room just is small enough and the walls are smooth.

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Seytra
Not top choice for mages, either, as there are races more gifted in it

I disagree here. Klyros do make good mages. Although they are not as gifted in the arts initially, they also make up for this in general all round stats, so they can survive easier in close combat. High level in the mental stats isn\'t so important in the first realm, and you can easily get enough pp to increase it later on when needed, using your better END AGI and STR to do this. It\'s all a balance.

[Mr. Dave]

Originally posted by Gronomist
1: Since Klyros are able to both fly (well, glide) and swim, shouldn\'t they naturally be fairly agile? I see that the Players\' Guide shows their base Agility at 55, less than for Ylians.

Sure, but could you point out where it says humans are less agile than the Klyros, simply because they don\'t have wings and can\'t all swim?

Let\'s see what really determines being Agile:

   1. Characterized by quickness, lightness, and ease of movement; nimble.
   2. Mentally quick or alert: an agile mind.

So basically, humans can easily be quicker, lighter and have easier movement than the Klyros. They still have to bash around with their wings when they run, and they can\'t squeeze into as many places as humans can. So they\'re not always as agile as you might think.

My thought was that body-flight (in which I include gliding, since it involves the same aerodynamic principles for lift & control) would require faster reflexes, better balance, and more precise and complex muscle co-ordination than walking. I hadn\'t really considered the encumbrance aspect; I\'d assumed the wings could fold more-or-less flat to the back.

Then again, I admit balancing a long, narrow, unevenly-weighted and not-terribly-rigid body on it\'s small end is no mean feat of computation when you stop to think about it...

Another implementation question: While Klyros and (if memory serves) Nolthrir can breathe in normal water, will there be areas where they can\'t breathe? The sewage-holding bunkers under Hydlaa come to mind, for example.

[Seytra]

I don\'t think that the base stats will actually outhweigh the bonus on talent once PS\' rules are more completely implemented. The effect of base stats usually becomes less important the higher the skill is, so stats are supplemental, not defining properties. They certainly do have noticable impact, but not nearly as much as the skill level if rised to the same relative value (i.e., percentage of maximum). Therefore, they will be able to become competent, but not as easily as the more magically-inclined species. As Talad stated: each player will, regardless ofd race, be able to eventually reach maximum in every skill. This might be somewhat limited by the \"cap\" on certain skills for some few species, though I don\'t know if this will actually be impelmented as a strict cap. More likely, it\'s going to be implemented as a dramatic increase in cost vs. gain, which would be nicer IMO.

As far as breathing in water is concerned, the Kran can do it as well. However, they all still take oxygen from the water, so if there is no oxygen, they all will suffocate, regardless of whether they are in water or in air.

Tha Kran might even be able to survive even harder environments as long as they still contain a sufficient quantity of oxygen. An example would be toxic fumes or polluted water that would kill every other species. The sewage bunkers will still contain oxygen AFAICS, but due to the consistency of the fluid it might not be breathable indeed, or it might at least be extremely hard and even damaging if prolonged (germs, anyone?). Kran would still be able to breathe just fine in it.

If you, however, take rotting stuff, like a swamp covered by water, the oxygen might have been replaced completely by swamp gas (methane), abd thus, while the water itself might be perfectly clear and pure, Kran, Klyros and Nolthrir would still suffocate in perfect harmony.

Summarising there will be at least some places where noone can go without proper magical or technical equipment, just as if it were space. Oh, and deep seas (like the bottom of RL oceans) will not be reachable as well to all but Kran, as the pressure will squish everyone else.

[Incenjucar]

Originally posted by Xordan

Originally posted by Seytra
Not top choice for mages, either, as there are races more gifted in it

I disagree here. Klyros do make good mages. Although they are not as gifted in the arts initially, they also make up for this in general all round stats, so they can survive easier in close combat. High level in the mental stats isn\'t so important in the first realm, and you can easily get enough pp to increase it later on when needed, using your better END AGI and STR to do this. It\'s all a balance.

And I can\'t imagine a better cheap hit and run tactic than flying in just long enough to toss a timed touch spell, then flying away again to start hurling distance spells while the enemy tries to close.

[Tharizdun]

Originally posted by Seytra

As far as breathing in water is concerned, the Kran can do it as well. However, they all still take oxygen from the water, so if there is no oxygen, they all will suffocate, regardless of whether they are in water or in air.

Tha Kran might even be able to survive even harder environments as long as they still contain a sufficient quantity of oxygen. An example would be toxic fumes or polluted water that would kill every other species. The sewage bunkers will still contain oxygen AFAICS, but due to the consistency of the fluid it might not be breathable indeed, or it might at least be extremely hard and even damaging if prolonged (germs, anyone?). Kran would still be able to breathe just fine in it.

If you, however, take rotting stuff, like a swamp covered by water, the oxygen might have been replaced completely by swamp gas (methane), abd thus, while the water itself might be perfectly clear and pure, Kran, Klyros and Nolthrir would still suffocate in perfect harmony.

Summarising there will be at least some places where noone can go without proper magical or technical equipment, just as if it were space. Oh, and deep seas (like the bottom of RL oceans) will not be reachable as well to all but Kran, as the pressure will squish everyone else.

The Kran racial description http://www.planeshift.it/razkran.htm is contradictory as to whether Kran breathe or not. On one hand it says in an unambiguous fashion They don\'t breathe so they can\'t drown. But then also says Silicon still supports oxygen linkages, so Kran breathe much more slowly than other races, enabling them to happily breathe underwater.

I think whether they breathe slowly, breathe not at all, or breathe because it suits them to do so rather than from any physical necessity needs clarifying.

If you read this as \'they can exist entirely without oxygen\', this makes some areas habitable only by kran. Such as those filled with poisonous gasses, oxygen free environments, areas of low or extreme atmospheric pressure ( ie vacuum or high pressure chambers ), and so on. I figure that likewise there are low-ceiling areas only dwarves can live in comfortably, areas accessible by smooth vertical shafts that only winged Klyros can reach, etc so things sort of even out advantage-wise.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Incenjucar
And I can\'t imagine a better cheap hit and run tactic than flying in just long enough to toss a timed touch spell, then flying away again to start hurling distance spells while the enemy tries to close.

You still need to consider ranged weapons. A Klyros isn\'t particularly small, so it\'ll be easily visible and easily hit by an arrow. There\'s nothing like \"turquoise Klyros down\", is there?

Tharizdun, I, too, think that this needs to be clarified, though I tend to assume that they actually do breathe, because \"oxygen\" and \"breathing\" are mentioned one time more than \"not breathing\", and also in a more elaborate sentence.

Anyway, the environments you mentioned can, except for the Kran\'s, be changed into something comfourtably inhabitable by all species, so they don\'t necessarily represent permanent conditions. However, the initiall settling will, of course, be more easy and the places might not be worth the effort to make them habitable for everyone. I think there will be some typical places that will at least have a great majority population of each race. Just imagine the defensive bonus for a Klyros village that is just plainly inaccessible without mountaineering equipment! OTOH, it would be a pain to get goods there, as you\'d need to keep travelling back and forth with tiny loads. A place that is underwater has obvious advantages as well, and so does a low-roof setting (Ulbernauts? Nah, they aren\'t into crouching ). Therefore, some places, mostly outposts and lone settlings, will probably keep their unique properties for defensive reasons, and instead put effort into being (mostly) self-sufficient.

[Tarachnul]

Oh, and deep seas (like the bottom of RL oceans) will not be reachable as well to all but Kran, as the pressure will squish everyone else.

what makes you think that silicone isnt crushed at high pressure levels?

and as to the agility thing while klyros may be more agile in the air the wings would be too much of a detriment to them on the ground and in the water thus the reason (from my point of view) for the ..average?... base aggility

regards

-Tarach

[confused]

I chose the Klyron mainly to be an explorer type character, where the wings provide some form of flight (mostly gliding with little flapping to gain a little altitude as a result of training) and the ability to swim in water where one can breath. To help the Klyros in difficult situations where one can\'t wear armour and generally more frail than other races, I choose the mage way to provide defensive and long range attacks.

Even though Klyros would not be true masters of magic, they at least can use magic to help them explore seeing that they are gifted with the tools for travelling faster. Also allows them to be traders while exploring, though would carry only a limited amount of supplies at a time, if flying is to be used.

I would also agree that travelling in open areas they could easily be fastest as run for they can use their wings to glide through ground effect as much as hang-gliders and sail-planes glider for long distances while in ground effect with very little effort. Also they would be well balanced in this situation. In doors and dense bushy areas where one would have to push one\'s way through the undergrowth, the Klyros would definitely be slowed down the most due to care to keep the wings folded back and not to get them snaged on plant life or furniture. Walking where enough clear area about them as not to hamper the wings, they would walk at the same speed of other equally tall races. Also would be slightly less balanced when their wings are folded back, top heaviness and behaving as stiff rudder to prevent damage to the wings when walking in narrow quarters.

I believe that the AGL score represents the genral body motion and not the fine movement of digits of hands and feathers of the wings. When the Klyros is walking or in tight quarters, in combat the Klyros definitely would be less agile with bulky wings hampering quick body movement. For long flight, the Klyros would have stronger mechanical musicles and excellent wing joint and feather dexterity (which is not represented as an ability score, but could be presented as a flying skill, though would need to start off with much higher value to represent being born with wings is far better than getting them later).