Languages in PS

[Foresteer]

Woop Woop we are getting really open minded thinking going on! If you learn 3 langauges (you native and then the 2 other the average person can learn) then we wouldnt need a world language averybody would speak many of the same language.. If i speak native english  then Japanese and German and you Speak native German then Polish and Italian then it may take some time to figure out which language is mutual but we can still communicate

also i love thinking in multiple trains of thought.. one is never enough.. hell 10 isn\'t the faster you think the faster you learn.. and the smarter we ALL get due to you and i like the sound of the world ceasing to be dumb

(man i hope i can learn every major and semi-major language.. that would own.. there is this pimsleur approuch that says it can teach you language like a baby learns it.. so technicaly you will learn every language at a \"native\" level! also it teaches you at the rate of a baby 1-15 parts of language every hour.. loosk interesting i am seriously stoked about it)

[ramlambmoo]

 I see many interesting points here. First, English I feel is an easy language outside the slang and all the other made up stuff, but isn\'t a language just made up anyway? So anyway, depending on how you look at it, the average person growing up in America takes english class every year in school, basically until their 18 about. Then we look at post highschool, the use of the english language and the meaning of every word can take years, as it takes americans about 16 years to learn, growing up in a english speaking country. So think about that, before saying 15 years to learn english is a long time, 15 years to learn about perfect a foreign language I feel is a reasonable amount time, as it takes usually about just as long to learn your native language.  

WWWWWWTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTFFFFFFFFFFF???
(thats a WTFx alot)

English is not an easy language to learn.  It is one of the hardest, because of the grammer.  Get me people who have english as their second language, and im sure they\'ve tell you.  I had alot of friends from school who had english as a second language, and lemme tell you, it takes a LONG time to learn it properly.  The trouble with enligsh isnt the words are harder, just the grammer structure is exactly not that- not structured for ease of use.  I know people who have been living in an English speaking country for 7+ years and still have difficulty with grammer.    These arnt people just coming to australia and speaking their own language, im talking about people who go to school and speak english for 200 days a year for seven years straight, and they still havnt mastered the complexities of the grammer.  If you have a good founding in english, you simply dont realise this, because we\'re used to it.  I dont find english hard at all, but i understand how other people do.  Im sorry, but you people saying english is such a simple language are just wrong.  I have no idea who keeps this myth alive, but it is an extremly naive view.  That said, people should still learn english to play PS, of course.  But it would be good if there was some help for the major non enlgish groups, just to help them along.  Certaintly though they should make an attempt to perfect their english skills, and they should be encouraged to do so.
@moogie- yeah, you probablly do feel left out, you cant talk to them.... but imagine them, until they get better english they cant talk to the other 98% of PS.  We should encourage people to learn english,  but there\'s no point being too harsh on them, as long as it is made clear that the main communication in the game is english.

[Kaseijin]

i mean if english is that hard how come i am speaking or rather writing it so well, even though i spent only 4 years in an english speaking country...
it\'s not hard really. The hardest thing in english are articles, the \'a\'-s and \'the\'-s.
7 years is enough to learn any language if you live in a country where that language is official. People who live 7 years in a country and still don\'t speak it well usually live in a close knit community... like china towns ...thus they are never forced to speak the country\'s language in everyday occasions, where they use the language only at work and school.
Best way to learn a language is to be surrounded by it constantly, and use it constantly....if you go to let say Japan... and live there for 2 years, speaking only japanese(or as much as possible) and spending time in front of tv watching jap tv... you\'d be surprised how quickly you would learn the language.
This is especially true if you are under 40...and if you already know more than one language.

p.s.
hah i missed the \'a\' in the title...

p.p.s.
ok let\'s agree for the sake of the argument that english is hard.. hard compared to what.... tell me which language is easy to learn.

[Caym]

7 years is enough to learn any language if you live in a country where that language is official.

So you suggest everyone who wants to play PS has to spend 7 years in the US before they can play ?
Ok just kidding, I agree with you here. That\'s what teachers keep saying anyway.

p.p.s.
ok let\'s agree for the sake of the argument that english is hard.. hard compared to what.... tell me which language is easy to learn.

Well every language is hard to learn
But as I said earlier, it depend wholly on the languages you already know.
A few examples : french people who have never studied spanish can understand some of it because both languages are very close. English is a lot harder to learn for us because the grammar and even vocabulary have nothing in common compared to \"latin\" languages. Take the tenses (most funny part imo) : you can\'t even compare the abstract concepts or use of french simple past and english preterite !
And there\'s the even worse problem when not only the alphabet is different, but it contains letters that represent sounds that don\'t even exist in your native language (take the \"th\" in english, or the weird \"chtchj\" in polish...).

[Kaseijin]

ok agreed.... but for an asian speaking person it\'s not any easier to learn french than it is english.

and yes every language is hard to learn...or as person who likes languages i would say that it\'s not hard but it takes time to learn. You can\'t memorize a language and when learning a new never compare it to a language you know, tie its tenses and words not to the words and tenses of another language but to the abstract meanings, the things themselvs....it\'s hard to describe....
i am going to use japanese again...cause i am trying to learn it..
let say the word neko...means cat. I don\'t memorize it like that. i memorize it as a name of small furry animals that go \'miew\'
ok here\'s a graphical representation of how thought process most people do when someone says the word neko
neko->cat(as an english word)-> mental image of the cat
what i try to do is tie the word neko directly to the mental image of a cat
neko->mental image of a cat

and i stop...here...sorry....sorry everyone...i got carried away.

[fken]

Originally posted by Moogie

Originally posted by Robinmagus
English only outside of /tell

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. English only in /shout and the Help channel. You may use any language you want in /say, /guild, /group, and /tell.

everything is told by my dear Moogie. So why keeping speaking ? Moreover, if your language is the best just tell me why some english speaker arent able to understand another english speaker ? I mean Canadien, British and Texas unhabitants are sometimes not able to understand each others... personaly I think the best english is the british one so please forget all your american expressions... lol If you have a problem with that please create another rule : the game is originaly created by Luca and I think he is Italien so please speak only italien during one week... it will be a carnage lol

No be serious fken! I think everybody must be allowed to play ps... even the one who cant speak a good english. The rules for the /shout are correct but I think the one who want to shout in their native language could be allowed if they translate it in english in the same line... something like \"aidez moi svp/ help me please\"

Im sorry but here I feel like if you are telling us \"hey you cant speak english ! This is our territory here get out of my face\"... And as I ever said, The one who write here and try to keep some priviledges must change their mind... Here I saw angry against noobs for example and I think this is not the correct image of ps! There is nothing to command and no superiority in Yliakum : we are all new in this world cause even if we are older dont forget that the game isnt older than 5 years... when you were 5 how were you ? were you really able to create the rules ? I mean : consider you are too young to be superior than anybody and then you\'ll be better... that\'s my mind...

I hope moogie will close this thread very soon cause I really think it\'s not a good image of the community...

[Harkin]

People misunderstood my last post, english is any easy language compared to learning any language, its hard? Took 15 years to learn english, as a non-native speaker? Well then it\'s taken me 15 years of school to get as far as I am, and there is still one more year of school for me left.

Don\'t take my posts as saying I\'m against foreign languages, I\'m learning German and one day I hope to learn another language, maybe Japanese.

Sidenote: In english it is very easy to express yourself, throw out one or two words and you can freely express yourself. Over all, the \'a\' and \'the are easy, there is no gender attached so you can use them in almost any situation:

I ate a cat.
I ate the cat.

Both make sense and are perfectly done.

The cat was very tasty, maybe I\'ll have a dog next.
The cat was very tasty, maybe I\'ll have the dog next.

It all depends if you are talking about a specific cat or dog, or in general. Sorry for my very bad examples. :\\

[Seytra]

How often do I need to post that I am not natively speaking english myself? I know how it is to learn english, and I found it by far easier to learn than Latin, exactly because the grammar isn\'t that strict, and ambiguity, or worse, wrong meaning, isn\'t created by simple mistakes in the vocals words end in. \"the\"s and \"a\"s also help to designate contextual relations, which also are done by endings in latin. In english, it is almost impossible to completely alter the meaning of a sentence by spelling and grammar errors.
I\'ve been learning school-english, and it worked just fine for communicating in text-form. Speaking and understanding spoken english is a different matter, but that took only half a year.

Anyway, I, for one, would be perfectly happy to see a real, actual, universal world language, as I could be sure that nobody needs to learn multiple languages, but at most two (in a transition phase), and still communicate with everyone. There are aspects of our freedom that are incredibly more important stripped away on a daily basis, the loss of which doesn\'t benefit us. I\'d happily exchange this evil for the common language \"evil\".

Oh, and I don\'t mean to imply that everyone needs to learn english \"properly\", allright? Just enough to be able to communicate, and this takes a lot less effort and time.


OK, now I have managed to track down a document talking about this \"Saphir Worf hypothesis\" (the spelling is corect), so that I have a clue what it\'s about (as nobody cared to provide any links, this is the best I can do). However, not surprisingly, I disagree with it. I think that language is created to prevent a representation of the world as percieved by the individual, not the other way round. It is no incident that societies that live in regions that have great amounts of snow tend to have many words for snow. This has a simple reason: it is a dominant factor in their environment, and it\'s specific properties are of such importance to everyday life, that it is necessary to create words / expressions for it! We\'re doing this every time something new is found / invented.
Therefore, it still is my opinion that language has absolutely nothing to do with the way a person thinks. Instead, the way a person is brought up, and the culture the person is surrounded by, determines how this person percieves the world and thinks.
However, not even this can completely form a person, as there are always different ideas and opinions, even in the most homogeneous environment (it may be impossible to talk about them in certain societies (religions are notorious for that) , but they are there).

@ Tarachnul: according to dictionaries, \"diversity\" is a value-neutral term, and as such cannot be \"overdone\", because it simply \"is\". So I agree, my definition was incorrect.

Therefore, it is more precise to say that I think that diversity needs to be reduced in almost all aspects of life in order to form a working society, because otherwise there will be no interaction and no understanding, which will build up either tensions or simple disregard, both of which make \"society\" impossible. On some aspects, diversity needs to be reduced to a minimum (human rights), while on some aspects, like religion, it hardly matters how diverse people are.

@ Kaseijin: this way (direct imaging) is the only way to be able to fluently speak and understand a language. It can be learnt easily by living in a country that speaks this language, but may also be able to be brought about artificially, though this isn\'t learnt in school (instead, you learn the way of intermediary translation).

[buddha]

Seytra:  \"Therefore, it is more precise to say that I think that diversity needs to be reduced in almost all aspects of life in order to form a working society, because otherwise there will be no interaction and no understanding, which will build up either tensions or simple disregard, both of which make \"society\" impossible. On some aspects, diversity needs to be reduced to a minimum (human rights), while on some aspects, like religion, it hardly matters how diverse people are. \"

I believe that Hitler and Saddam Hussein would be delighted by your arguments.

Now, I am not calling you a racist, nor am I implying that you would agree with Hitler or Saddam Hussein.  In fact, over your last several posts I have become convinced of your sincerity.  I believe that you think you are truly being compassionate in your statements.

However, you are making broad generalisations.  You are making huge statements about society, the structure of language in the brain and the origins of conflict. For instance Saphir and Worf are professional linguists, people who have studied a very long time, yet you discard their research without so much as a survey.  You are entitled to you opinion, of course, but can\'t you see that you are stepping into an arena of which you know almost nothing?

A very quick path to intellectual poverty is along the road of \"I already know everything\", which is the road you are traveling with your posts.  Your calls for linguistic homogeneity indicate you feel you know the \"solution\" to perfect communication. You would argue that the Basque people stop speaking Basque already and just get on with Spanish or, better yet, English.  To anyone with an academic background, this is narrow-minded.

Instead of reading a single post on linguistic theory and declaring it rubbish, spend some time and educate yourself on the topic.  Your arguments are vapid.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by buddha
I believe that Hitler and Saddam Hussein would be delighted by your arguments.

The easy \"argument\" to discredit someone with whome one doesn\'t agree. It will nmot stop me, nor change my stance, nor will it make me act as if I were convinced otherwise. You\'re by far not the first to be trying to pull that one on me. :rolleyes:
If his ideas weren\'t so popular, I assume you\'d be putting Bush on this list as well.

Originally posted by buddha
Now, I am not calling you a racist, nor am I implying that you would agree with Hitler or Saddam Hussein. In fact, over your last several posts I have become convinced of your sincerity.  I believe that you think you are truly being compassionate in your statements.

Your wording of this is really admirable. You make it sound like someone who tries to tell a child that it\'s completely bone-headed, without actually saying it, to make it not feel bad.

Originally posted by buddha
However, you are making broad generalisations.  You are making huge statements about society, the structure of language in the brain and the origins of conflict. For instance Saphir and Worf are professional linguists, people who have studied a very long time, yet you discard their research without so much as a survey.

Well, from what I was able to find (as you still haven\'t posted any references), it seems that at least one third of all psychologists disagree with that theory, and that another third isn\'t sure about it. This doesn\'t give it too much scientific clout IMO.
Furthermore, linguistics tend to be full of assumptions that cannot be proven and also full of ambiguities. I have rarely seen a linguistic deduction that was unquestionable. Therefore, I indeed don\'t hold too much respect for that particular field of science.

Originally posted by buddha
You are entitled to you opinion, of course, but can\'t you see that you are stepping into an arena of which you know almost nothing?

Well, I am just following different trains of though there. Thinking independantly, without letting the \"truths\" of established science blind me. Indeed I don\'t know very much about linguistics itself, but I am fairly good at observation and deduction, and if what I observe and deduce is in contradiction with some established truth, I will question the \"truth\" until proven wrong, which must include a logical explanation for all my observations.

Originally posted by buddha
A very quick path to intellectual poverty is along the road of \"I already know everything\", which is the road you are traveling with your posts.

I don\'t see myself doing that. If I were doing so, I would not have bothered to try to find something on the Saphir Worf theory. You, however, haven\'t even done so much research as to be sure of the very spelling of it. Basicly, it looks like you\'re trolling.

Originally posted by buddha
Your calls for linguistic homogeneity indicate you feel you know the \"solution\" to perfect communication.

Well, observation surely proves that communication works much better if both partners speak a common language, and also that there is way less overhead when there is only one single language at all.

Originally posted by buddha
You would argue that the Basque people stop speaking Basque already and just get on with Spanish or, better yet, English.

Absolutely. A language isn\'t a prerequisite for cultural definition. In fact, there are many cultures that share a language but are different.

Originally posted by buddha
To anyone with an academic background, this is narrow-minded.

It is quite nice to see how you imply that I don\'t have academic background, while you know absolutely nothing about me. Also, it is quite interesting how you are constantly trying to emphasize that you are a \"scientist\", while failing at even the most basic ways of properly conducting scientific work (like referencing your sources).

Furthermore, you still haven\'t stated why exactly believing that having a universal language would be beneficial is narrow-minded.

Originally posted by buddha
Instead of reading a single post on linguistic theory and declaring it rubbish, spend some time and educate yourself on the topic.  Your arguments are vapid.

A particular theory, out of the vast and constantly changing field of linguistics. And, I\'d like to remind you, one that isn\'t even accepted by the majority of linguists.

Anyway, how about you trying to support your claims by presenting the literature that supports it, so that I can follow your thoughts? References are more than overdue.
Also, how about you not constantly insulting me, but properly refuting my claims? The only things I see you doing are
- making a bold statement to the essence that I\'m wrong
- giving either an insult or some superficial \"argument\" that is supposed to look as if it would counter my claims
- finish with another bold statement that I\'m even more wrong

As I said above, your posts have all signs of a troll.

[mromu'e fanza]

Hi,

I\'ve been lurking on the forums and playing the game occasionally for several months now, but this is only my second post.  Disclaimer:  I haven\'t played any other MMORPGs, and only a few single player RPGs, so I have very little knowledge of what ideas have been tried elsewhere and whether or not they worked.  Anyway...

A point that is being overlooked is the importance of non-verbal communication.  In everyday speech, we don\'t just listen to the words a person says - their facial expression, tone of voice and stance can convey a lot about how they feel, and many people also use gestures to emphasise what they are saying.

If you ask someone \"how are you today?\", and they reply \"I\'m fine\" in a low, slurred voice while frowning, they\'re obviously not telling the truth.  If you invite someone to go out somewhere, they will not only say something like \"Great, I\'d love to do that!\" or \"Err, no, I don\'t really like that place\" but will say it in a certain tone of voice.  You will probably be listening more for the tone than the words - if it were a foreigner who hadn\'t learnt intonation properly and.  In this case the single word \"yes\" or \"no\" would be sufficient to convey the relevant information - the rest is just to fit social conventions of politeness.

When people meet in RL who can\'t speak the same language, gestures are better than nothing, e.g. pointing and finger-counting when trying to buy something.  I\'m currently taking a Teaching English as a Foreign Language course - to give us would-be teachers an idea of what it will be like for our students, trying to learn English from a teacher who doesn\'t know their language, we were given 6 hours of Russian lessons delivered entirely in Russian.  The teacher had to use simple words, exaggerated tones and lots of body language to communicate anything.  At the end of 4 lessons, I still wasn\'t sure of the Russian word for \"listen\", but the teacher always emphasised it by cupping her hand around her ear, which made the meaning clear.

What does this have to do with Planeshift?  To point out that players in PS should be able to make some sort of gestures.  This idea is not new - a quick search of the forum reveals that it\'s been intended since the beginning.  I just wanted to point out that IMHO, gestures are an important feature, especially if PS is intended to be a role play focused game.  They would add a lot of depth to role play, and with enough flexibility, possibly have the side benefit of helping players overcome language barriers.

Consider the example mentioned earlier, of the player who walked in to the tavern with a sword, and didn\'t understand the instructions of the people already there to put it away - which is quite a plausible scenario.  With facial expressions, shaking heads and pointing, the people there might not have been able to communicate to the newcomer \"no weapons allowed in here\" (and the same would be true in a similar RL situation with real gestures), but could at least have expressed their displeasure and desire for him to leave.  Rather than spoiling the role play, this would have fitted in or maybe added to it.

How to implement gestures is a difficult question - AFAIK, it hasn\'t been attempted much before, and of course it will be impossible to have as much freedom as in real life (where you can wave two arms and legs around freely and make all sorts of faces).  Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of the player being able to point at things by clicking on them, and their character would then point in that direction with their finger.  If it were possible to drag the mouse to move the character\'s arms about, this would be a good starting point.  Also, it would be good if characters\' heads moved realistically as the player looks around with the mouse - this would allow nodding and shaking of the head ( \"yes\" and \"no\" ), but it might be better to have shortcuts for these.

I think the technology to do this sort of thing is basically there with cal3d\'s skeletal animation, by moving control points around, but I\'m not quite sure what the capabilities of the engine are.

Comments, anyone?

[buddha]

1.  \"Thinking independantly, without letting the \"truths\" of established science blind me. \"

I love this one, it\'s like those people who claim \"Evolution is only a theory\".  Can you guess the flaw? (Hint: gravity is only a theory as well.)

Perhaps you can take a moment to notice that I have provided counter-examples to your gross claims.  That does not require citation.

2. \"Furthermore, linguistics tend to be full of assumptions that cannot be proven and also full of ambiguities. I have rarely seen a linguistic deduction that was unquestionable. Therefore, I indeed don\'t hold too much respect for that particular field of science.\"

First, exactly how many linguistic deductions have you seen? I\'m not defending the science, but you are making another broad statement.  Can you please cite something here, since the bibliography is suddenly so important?  Second, it\'s very easy to disregard other fields with which we are not familiar.  That is a common academic mistake.

3. \"It is quite nice to see how you imply that I don\'t have academic background, while you know absolutely nothing about me. \"

This is true.  I inferred it. I could be wrong.

4. Please don\'t mention Bush, he makes me very angry and to this point it\'s all been fun.

5.  I never supported nor detracted from the Saphir-Worf hypothesis.  I mentioned it only to point out that many experts may disagree with you about the value of multiple languages.  In fact, it is probably rubbish, but that is not my place to say.

6.  You never prove that I don\'t have a invisible elephant friend.  He talks to me and helps with my research.  All that is well and good, you don\'t have to believe me UNTIL I start demanding that you bring him food or something.  Once I start making claims that influence your life, you will probably want to establish the existence of Frank (the invisible elephant, did I mention his name?).  Now, the onus is suddenly upon ME to prove his existence, not upon you to DISPROVE his existence.  If I make the claim, I must supply the proof.

You cannot prove that reindeer don\'t fly, not even by killing all of them by throwing them off the Empire State Building.  You cannot, in general, prove a negative.

So why am I bringing poor Frank into this?  Well, YOU are making claims that YOU are not supporting, often without even the courtesy \"this is my opinion\" disclaimer.  And the claims you make, about who should be able to speak which languages in an international game, may effect my game play. Your claims are vapid.

7. \"Well, observation surely proves that communication works much better if both partners speak a common language, and also that there is way less overhead when there is only one single language at all. \"

This is a little blue, but I met an Hindu girl once, and, um, we did fine with a major language barrier...  Just another counterexample to a wild claim.  I take issue with the word \"proves\" in the above statement.

[Seytra]

You are, yet again, not providing any links, not supporting your claims and, as a new addition, you are twisting my words to mean the opposite. Also, you put in things that are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
What you\'re doing here isn\'t scientific work, neither is it contributing to a discussion. It\'s trolling, and I have had enough of it. :tdown:

[Foresteer]

Originally posted by fken
I mean Canadian, British and Texas unhabitants are sometimes not able to understand each others....

so true so true XD i use ya\'ll and howdy  and other texan phrases though and my english is spoken just fine (i\'m a little weak in spelling but speaking i am very good at)

[ramlambmoo]

I love this one, it\'s like those people who claim \"Evolution is only a theory\". Can you guess the flaw? (Hint: gravity is only a theory as well.)  

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You wouldnt go under the alternative name of Bernel or Griff would you?

Its just i had a huge discussion with someone else about this fact on another board. (Good old utopia temple boards).
Anyway the point i made was gravity is not a theory, it is a scientific law, so you cannot compare the two.  So you\'re incorrect in that statement.

You are, yet again, not providing any links, not supporting your claims and, as a new addition, you are twisting my words to mean the opposite. Also, you put in things that are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
What you\'re doing here isn\'t scientific work, neither is it contributing to a discussion. It\'s trolling, and I have had enough of it.  

Oh boo hoo you get the sympathy vote in the arguement.  Seriously if hes so wrong then take him down.  Did you ever think its a bit hypocritical to say \"hes not providing any links\" and then go on to accuse him of all this stuff without showing where or when he did it ?  Something about that seems a bit strange to me...... lol

Comments, anyone?

Yeah, take it to the suggestions board.
Ok thats a bit harsh, what you said certaintly has its merits.  And i think it would be good if implemented, but its not really what the discussions about.  But thanks for the good idea.  You should actually post that on the suggestions board.