Magic Fighting Dishonorable?

[Valbrandr]

Sorry it was a typo... I meant no, I believe tactics are wonderful.  But running away casting spells is not much of a tactic.  And of your list of great leaders... Lets talk about Genghis Khan.  Some of the best Mongol troops were Calvary Archers.  They used these for quick attackes.  Swoop in... kill a few people and run away... I use the same tactics in AOEII.  It works great but is not honorable.  Not to mention his brutality towards people who defied him... just ask the Russians what kind of dishonorable tactics he used...

[ramlambmoo]

Sorry it was a typo... I meant no, I believe tactics are wonderful. But running away casting spells is not much of a tactic.

Well there isnt alot we can do at this stage... if you have another way of fighting using magic id like to hear it.

Lets talk about Genghis Khan. Some of the best Mongol troops were Calvary Archers. They used these for quick attackes. Swoop in... kill a few people and run away... I use the same tactics in AOEII. It works great but is not honorable.

Well there your definition of honor varies from mine.  You appear to view anything other than directly engaging and fighting as dishonorable... i dont nessecarily agree.  Yes he did dishonorable things like killing opposers, but we\'re talking on the Battlefield here, not how dishonorable he was as a leader of his nation, but as the leader of an army when facing another army.  Khan used highly organised groups of horsemen, and utilised their speed to maximum effectiveness, both on the battlefield and on the campaign trail.  If you are stonger than someone, what is dishonorable about using that strength and hitting them harder?  If you are faster than somebody, what is dishonorable about using that speed to elude them when it befits you?

[Valbrandr]

Yes he did dishonorable things like killing opposers, but we\'re talking on the Battlefield here, not how dishonorable he was as a leader of his nation, but as the leader of an army when facing another army.

That is what I mean though... Tactics themselves are often dishonorable.  What about using swords to guns... who is more honorable?  Guerilla Warfare is often needed but is also often dishonorable.  

There are few honorable battles to tell you the truth.   The only honor I can see is fighting someone in an agreed upon manner that is as talented as you are.  A somewhat even match.  It brings no honor to kill someone weaker than you.  I am talking OOC of course... though my character does not fight with magic either

[ramlambmoo]

That is what I mean though... Tactics themselves are often dishonorable. What about using swords to guns... who is more honorable? Guerilla Warfare is often needed but is also often dishonorable.  

Well none of the people i mentioned used any of those tactics.. [checks list]...   Look theres obviously a fine line, but i dont think you can compare running around because thats the only way you can get your spells cast, to a tactic like agressivly killing civilians and hit and run attacks on a larger army.  Guerilla Warfare is not even meeting the oppenent head on in battle, where as the magic users are.  (However if you are a Guerilla warfare fighting for the liberation of your country, is that dishonorable? You cannot flatly label all guerilla warfare dishonorable in itself).   I agree some tactics can be viewed as dishonorable but i refuse to accept this extends to this case, and given the lack of alternative ways to use magic, it is the only way to do it at the moment.

[Foresteer]

the art of war or the \"Sun Tzu\" (also written by sun tzu) clearly states it MORE honorable to fight withough direct engagement... more honerable to the mothers of the men under you to bring back no dead using subervsion and stealth to win.. but if at all possible defeat your enemy without going to the battlefield

The idea of clashing on a battlefield army vs. army is a style of honor that is primitive and not very imaginative if you can hit from far away then do so and stay out of enemies range

your enemy shouldnt have engaged you if he expected a mage to fight the same way he does up close with a sword (actualy its downright stupid to think all people will fight the way that gives you the greatest advantage.. thats like being born with a silver spoom in your mouth and expecting everything handed to you)

[Valbrandr]

This will be my last post tonight.. I want to see what others think and I like the topic and dont want it to be closed...  I am talking about in the future of planeshift when there is a possibility of full PvP and upgrades to the magic system.  I understand right now you cant do much as a magic user.  It is  not always a bad thing to fight dishonorable... sometimes you cannot win if you do.  

I leave you with a saying...

The Weak do what they must...  the strong do what they will!

Lets hear from a few others on this....

[ramlambmoo]

The Weak do what they must... the strong do what they will!  

That pretty much sums it up,- until there is a more honorable way to fight using magic, we must make do with what we have.

[Rallelalli]

I see no problem with using magic in a duel. only you should not hide from someone if you are going to challenge them. I think that a duel should be fought with honor, and by that I mean that the big bullys should pick fights with other big bullys. Leave the new people alone so they have a chance to learn a little first.
Let the new people fight new people.
The dueling system is not right now and there are certain ones who are taking advantage of it. If you have honor, or want honor, you will wait until it is right, and even then you will fight someone of your own rank.
Spamming challenges while in a duel is not an honorable way to fight, it is a way to cheat, pure and simple.
Magic in a duel can be as honorable as swinging a sword, but your opponent should at least know where you are in the area. You should ask for a match first if you want to have honor in the win. A hearty \"good fight\" at the end of the duel will also bring honor.
But as there are many who wish to be evil, they (the evil ones) will see honor in anything they do, no matter what they have to do, just so they win and you lose. That is the way of every world.
I, myself, will only accept duels of honor.

[bitula]

As far as I know PS is skilled based, so mages can be partially fighters: wear armor, use swords and cast spells occasionally. So they don\'t seem to have any disadvantage, it seems quite balanced to me. I believe the most urgent would be to implement a skill called concentration, so a mage would have a chance to be not interrupted while casting. I dont think that running arround and casting is dishonorable: its not a good tactic anyway, because he can be chased and striked upon. Evasive maneuvers are stratagies, and strategies are not dishonorable per se. Which would be dishonorable is to implement machine guns, nukes, tanks etc. which donot fit into a balanced fantasy world.

[Merdarion]

my two trias about it:

Well if you assume that running around firing fireballs at the fighter, who hasn\'t even a single chance to reach you, is well it\'s cheap not tactically, and one thing that was pretty stupid back in my rat bashing days was that a fighter had to run around while a mage just stands still.

And also out of my experience: Melee doesnt really work good if you are running.

[ramlambmoo]

As far as I know PS is skilled based, so mages can be partially fighters: wear armor, use swords and cast spells occasionally. So they don\'t seem to have any disadvantage, it seems quite balanced to me.

Well we\'re assuming here that you dont have time to train 70 sword levels as well as 20 crystal levels.  I know with the tria bugs and what not thats been possible, but after the database wipe it wont be.  You cant say \"well magic people can use swords so that makes magic ok\".  Then they\'re just sword fighters.

Well if you assume that running around firing fireballs at the fighter, who hasn\'t even a single chance to reach you, is well it\'s cheap not tactically, and one thing that was pretty stupid back in my rat bashing days was that a fighter had to run around while a mage just stands still.

And also out of my experience: Melee doesnt really work good if you are running.

Last time i checked, magic dosnt work at all when you\'re running.  You have to stop to cast a spell, which is what makes this technique very hard to pull off, because all characters run at the same speed.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by bitula
As far as I know PS is skilled based, so mages can be partially fighters: wear armor, use swords and cast spells occasionally. So they don\'t seem to have any disadvantage, it seems quite balanced to me.

You might just as well say mages could forget about spells and become swordfighters. The point is that someone who roleplays mage won\'t be using swords and such very often.

Plus with low endurance and strength he won\'t do too well as a part fighter.

[bitula]

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Well we\'re assuming here that you dont have time to train 70 sword levels as well as 20 crystal levels.
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Well being a CLEAR mage, meaning unable to do anything exept casting can be difficult, but as far as I understand skill-based rpg-s encourage mixed characters. But even with a \"clear\" mage we may add skills like concentration, which would give growing chances of uninterruptable casting (like in neverwinter). Also mages could wear magic cloaks, which could do good protection agains physical attacks, or magic shields for example. The case of fireballs is a bit more difficult, but I would imagine that firebals could be only cast by very powerful mages so that a very powerful fighter who chalenges him probably would have some fire resisting armor, or could cast some simple spells like resist fire (ofcourse only to a certain percent.) BTW, by strategy I donot mean sneak attacks, I dont think it\'s a good idea to be able to attack anyone without a PVP request.

[Kiva]

Originally posted by bitula
Well being a CLEAR mage, meaning unable to do anything exept casting can be difficult, but as far as I understand skill-based rpg-s encourage mixed characters. But even with a \"clear\" mage we may add skills like concentration, which would give growing chances of uninterruptable casting

Am I the only one who sees a problem with that...? I mean come on. Imagine you\'re casting a spell. Someone walks up to you and stabs you in the stomach with a sword, however you - for some reason - manage to stay focused and cast your spell, instead of looking down and screaming? I seriously wonder what\'s going on in the head of the person who invented that stupid idea in the first place.

[buddha]

There is precendent. How would Gandalf have defeated the Balrog if he wasn\'t able to concentrate through the pain?

So at least Tolkein bought into that \"stupid idea\".

I am often suprised at how condescending the moderators around here can be.