Author Topic: Concerning options alongside PS licenses  (Read 5520 times)

Xordan

  • Crystal Space Developer
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 3845
  • For God and the Empire
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2005, 01:11:14 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Kiva
Quote
Originally posted by lemontea
The problem is, will the contributor automatically become a member of the Atomic Blue?


No. You\'re only a member after completing your trial period and signing the PlaneShift NDA.


Not quite. WTB members aren\'t part of Atomic Blue. Only full members are. Signing the NDA just means that Talad owns your soul for all eternity :)

Quote
this means PS could change into a closed source game anytime they want... sorry but thats not what i call a open source game


How could it? All content and code is under GPL and/or copyright Atomic Blue, and Atomic Blue is a Non-Profit Corp....
The whole company would have to change to turn this into a commercial project.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 01:21:47 pm by Xordan »

jorrit

  • Developers
  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2005, 01:25:18 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Asraniel
this means PS could change into a closed source game anytime they want... sorry but thats not what i call a open source game


Did you forget that the source code of PS is under the GPL? That means that all source that is released so far cannot be closed again because it has that license and that license cannot be revoked. Of course Atomic Blue may fork a version of the PS code and relicense it under a different (closed or other) license. But even in the extremely unlikely event that that would happen then the original PS source which is available in CVS right now is still GPL and still open.

Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space, CEL, CrystalBlend and Crystal Core. Please support Crystal Space with a donation.

lynx_lupo

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1431
  • Sorbus aria!
    • View Profile
    • Linux pri nas
(No subject)
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2005, 01:51:56 pm »
Yep, think of Tuxracer - after it was \"closed\", some free development continued under openracer and now with ppracer.
"Amor sceleratus habendi"- Ovid
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you eat them." -Godzilla

Asraniel

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2005, 05:04:10 pm »
@jorrit:
well, lets asume a coder gives some code to PS, he dont get in the team because of different reasons. Lets say its a extremly cool AI for the monsters.
Now PS changes to closed source. Hes code is, of course, in the last cvs version that stayed GPL, but also in the closed source version of the game.

If there is no plan to release PS as a closed source game, i dont see why the coder should give the copyright to the PS team and why he cant keep it.

Xordan

  • Crystal Space Developer
  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 3845
  • For God and the Empire
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2005, 08:06:03 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Asraniel
If there is no plan to release PS as a closed source game, i dont see why the coder should give the copyright to the PS team and why he cant keep it.


Because that guy could be annoyed by something in the future and say: \'Actually, you can\'t use my code any more.\' And then things start to screw up, as his code has to be removed, plus any code which interacts with it and depends on it will have to be rewritten which is a big waste of time.

jorrit

  • Developers
  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2005, 09:04:35 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Asraniel
@jorrit:
well, lets asume a coder gives some code to PS, he dont get in the team because of different reasons. Lets say its a extremly cool AI for the monsters.
Now PS changes to closed source. Hes code is, of course, in the last cvs version that stayed GPL, but also in the closed source version of the game.

If there is no plan to release PS as a closed source game, i dont see why the coder should give the copyright to the PS team and why he cant keep it.


There are various advantages to having a single copyright holder. One of the major one is that it is possible to relicense PS to another Open Source license if that would be needed. For example, say that the PS team decides that a BSD license would fit PS better (purely hypothetical example). In that case it is easily done since all copyright is assigned to Atomic Blue. If copyrights are assigned to individual authors you have to get permission from every author for the license change.

Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space, CEL, CrystalBlend and Crystal Core. Please support Crystal Space with a donation.

tangerine

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2005, 09:06:13 pm »
IIRC the license cannot be changed from gpl, unless all members of AB vote unanimously to do so.

jorrit

  • Developers
  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2005, 09:08:29 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by tangerine
IIRC the license cannot be changed from gpl, unless all members of AB vote unanimously to do so.


Yes but that\'s the advantage. The members of AB are at least present with PS right now and form an active group. By putting copyright on Atomic Blue it is at least possible to change license. You just have to get the current members to agree. On the other hand if you have individual copyrights and source files are copyright to a member who is no longer with PS then this becomes much harder. It may even be impossible or hard to contact that other person.

In Crystal Space we have such a situation for example. Not that we want to relicense but there are lots of source files that are copyrighted by developers who are no longer contactable.

Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space, CEL, CrystalBlend and Crystal Core. Please support Crystal Space with a donation.

AryHann

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1244
  • WonderWoman
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2005, 08:08:56 am »
I personally would mind if I would loose the complete right over a piece of code on which I have been working hard (and similarly on a piece of art), but it is surely through that it is easier to control the project in its whole in this way, avoiding polemics and such.

It is also true that \"copying\" a piece of code that I have done and re-use it in another project cannot be that impossible, just think that anyway the basic code of the other application must be generically different and you have to change anyway which data structures it is using and so on.

The problem of such a license is that it scares people away. There is surely people that don\'t have any intention of giving the results of their work to somebody else. I know that there are anyway the credits that tells approximately who has done what, but there is a copyright that cannot be taken even if legally you give rights to AB (that might be me ;DDD - ok bad joke based on my initials)  or whatsoever. The intellectual property.

Maybe it would be an idea to emphasize more in the credits the authors and members of the team (I notice, for example, that the page with the members doesn\'t seem too updated, or am I wrong?).
And I - personally - would emphasize even more how the intellectual property of the work is still belonging to the original author.
I think it is pretty normal that you do one thing for a project and not for another one, but if you want to re-use something I guess you have enoough intellect (!!!) to re-use it as base for another project.

I might be not that clear, but what I mean is this.
Both in the case of the code and for the art, when you do something for PS or whatever else project, you learn how to do something and you train some skill of yours. Your work is the result of several phases.
What you surely can use it for another project is first of all the experience you gain when you do a piece of code/a 3d model, secondary the basic ideas. You cannot have a Ynnwn in your new game (it would be so strange to have a game with the same races as PS!!!)but you can modify your model at an early stage and make it become a classical elf, change the animations, etc.etc. and this is not - at least following the intellectual property concept (that is absolutely legal) - under any restriction.

I don\'t think, though, that if AB (independently from who is representing AB ) would like to change the license it would take that much.
It is based on consensus, but how many people are at the vertex of the organization?
And I think that this possibility is something that make mainly people dislike the idea.

Ary
AryHann

http://www.reflex.lth.se/culture/annelov - Virtual Annelöv -
Engine Dep. - One of Talad's Angels - Aka ww & Ahrijani's Goddess

lemontea

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Summary
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2005, 12:29:15 pm »
This high volume of replies surprise me, really! And it\'s nice to see the discussion are rolling. I\'ll be doing the clean up and summary, then :)

Note:If you are in a rush, before replying, please, at least read the first and the last paragraph of the summary to get the idea.

Summary

---Must read for participators---

The topic is started by me, and my motion is as follows:
1)Since the game is not completely open source, where the program is GPL and the game content is under Atmoic Blue License, we should state this clearly on the web site, and move the passage that mentioned this in the info page to the top of the page.

2)The game content license has gone into the extreme of protecting itself (over-protective) in that it scares away potential contributors since the Atomic Blue team get all the rights, and more importantly, it is selfish to the public by even not allowing any creatively made derivative work.
I suggested to lessen the restriction by allowing creatively made derivative work.

---End of must read for participators---



2a) Further development of the idea suggest a more transparent process of suggesting possible improvement to the game content.

What follows is some misinterceptions, including thinking I thought the whole game is GPL, and thinking I want to make them all open source. This are all wrong.

However, the discussion does progress, the major objections are:
1) The level of protection for artwork is a must, any lessening on the restriction will cause trouble, since there exist bad people in the public that wanted to spoil it.
2) The restrictions should not be lessened because people will just mess with the content and spoil all the organisation, lowering the quality, breaking the structure and cosistence of the game.
3) The license stated that you cannot do this and that, so you can\'t do this and that.

I countered their arguments with the followings:
1) This defeats the propose and ideology of open source development, since if you distrust the public, you shouldn\'t be giving this game to the public at all.
2) When we make the license more open, we will welcome anyone\'s comments, suggestions, proposal for modification, etc, but still have organisation and filtering, contrary to the belief of many who think open source = no organisation and a mess, this is wrong again.
3)That\'s what we\'re discussing, the possibility to change the license to close the unreasonable part of it.

The discussion then degraded as Kiva assumed me of bad faith(thinking I have conspiracy).

I defended myself by stating that I want the project to success, even if I can\'t do much with it.



---Must read for participators---

After that, the discussion forked into three fontlines:
1)My original motion, see the beginning.
2)Whether the development process for game content should be more open, by allowing people to contribute freely, but with a filtering and organising process. How should the filtering and organising be done is still a major undiscussed area.
3)How is decision made in Atomic Blue organisation, and if they want to change the license, does it need
a- All members and contributors to agree
b- Only all members in the Atomic Blue Organisation agree
c- Only the three master(acraig, Vengeance, Talad) in Atmoic Blue Organisation agree

---End of must read for participators---



That\'s the end of the summary.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 12:57:55 pm by lemontea »