Author Topic: Experience Gaining System  (Read 1278 times)

Draklar

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Experience Gaining System
« on: March 21, 2005, 12:05:48 am »
Well I have few thoughts about the current Planeshift experience gaining system, whereas the general thought is \"It\'s bad\". I have no idea how other players feel about it, but in my opinion it is kind of dull and not really innovative. Sure, there is a good point in it
and I mean here that you can gain experience not only from fighting monsters, but also by mining and so on, but I think Planeshift could move a little further. Maybe I should start from stating what bothers me most:

First of all, I think the speed with which characters advance in power is too fast. It might be good in early testing phase, but I don\'t think it will bring anything good in the future. Having an overpowered character can often prove to be discouraging for roleplaying, for example: A warrior has a mission to retrieve an item from a castle filled with all sorts of traps. Whilst overpowered warrior could collect various potions and let the traps damage him, a character with lesser power should find a thief with detect traps skill and maybe a mage to back them up with various spells. What is more, if the detect traps skill affected whole group, the thief would have a possibility to leave the group while being between many traps and have certain power over the rest of adventurers. But that\'s just a side note, there\'s also second point:

Generally people can gain experience by fighting monsters all day long. As we all know, that has a strong connection with the phenomenon known as power-leveling. Simply, as long as people see that hack&slash brings lots of experience, they will do that. And that brings me to the point where I share my idea of a little more innovative (I don\'t think it was used in any other game) system.



To give a general picture, here\'s an example that should be quite familiar with the real life:
Normally when someone studies from a book, he won\'t be able to study all day long on same ratio. His mind would keep getting tired and the studying potential would decrease. So let\'s say that this person would take a bath. The results are quite obvious - he would relax and the studying potential would go up. What is more, he could also go outdoors and play football, decreased potential for studying wouldn\'t have many bad effects on playing it.
By using some mathematical calculations, something like that could be brought ingame without bigger problems. Of course, there would be many factors affecting all sorts of things. Besides potentials for studying, fighting and so on, gained experience would be also affected by how tired or hungry the character is.

With that stated, here\'s a more ingame example:

Let\'s say that a dermorian trains on the arena in order to gain more experience. With each hit he gains some experience, however in same time he gets more tired and his fighting potential decreases. After longer time, keeping in mind that the fighting potential is too low for further practice, the dermorian goes to a library to study a bit. His studying potential would be at its full, but still being tired after the fight makes it hard to study anything. The character is slowly getting less tired, his fighting potential goes up while the studying one goes down. However, because of being tired studying doesn\'t go well and the dermorian decides to get some rest at a tavern. There he talks with people (talking should give a bit of experience too, after all we also train charisma and who knows what can we learn from others) and drinks ale (liquids should increase the potentials). After getting some rest, he goes to mine a bit, where he spends his mining potential.

Relaxing would also depend on place where character spends his time. While everyone are doing quite well in a tavern, a dermorian would relax even faster in a forest, while a dwarf or a kran in a dungeon. That wouldn\'t however stop the dermorian from getting used to a dungeon. If he spends lots of time there, after a longer while, his relaxing ratio would be higher in a dungeon, not in forest.
Same goes for potentials. If character does more fighting than studying, then fighting potential decreases slower, while studying one faster.
That could create such characters as gladiators who feel great while fighting monsters on the arena, or druids who while in forests, can study for a very long time.

Also, characters who don\'t fight or study as much (explorers or bards) should have different ways of gaining experience. While everyone would gain minimal experience by talking or changing locations, bards (characters that talk a lot) should get more experience from talking, while explorers (characters that travel a lot) should get more experience from changing locations (note that the biggest variety occurs in the locations, the more experience is gained - switching between same two would give very low ammount of it).

As the last point - experience shouldn\'t be given at once. Rather stored together in a pool (player shouldn\'t be able to see how much there is) and, for example, after every ingame hour certain percent of stored experience would be gained by the character. That would make the character gain experience constantly, no matter what he\'s doing. And with bigger variety in his life, he should gain more experience. Simply, characters would develop just by living.
AKA Skald

Hatchnet

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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 12:26:05 am »
Simply, characters would develop just by living.


That is the single most important part of Draklar\'s post and if you ask me how things realy need to be.

Incenjucar

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2005, 06:20:24 am »
Basically... the Sims method, yes?
Underling Editor and Advisor for the Planeshift Comic Project.  Writers and Artists, and People with Ideas, Please Consider Getting Involved.  http://comic.ps-mc.com/forum/index.php

Silverfist

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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 06:48:48 am »
Good idea it would be nice to see this in game. :)

Moogie

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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 12:30:17 pm »
Some good points and ideas. Firstly I\'d like to point out that we havn\'t done much balancing with the combat, XP, or tria-earning systems. Right now we\'re focusing on populating the world with content and features ready for the wipe which will put everything equal again. From there we can observe how players progress, where the weaknesses are, what can be tweaked. Balancing is a long process, and will take many years of constant attention. Don\'t expect everything to be perfect after the wipe. :)

Your system is pretty much entirely different to what we have encorporated at the moment, and sounds extremely complex to code. Unless all the core PS devs (Talad included) really badly want to use this, I don\'t think it will happen.

Under the moon

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 12:51:22 pm »
I completely agree with Draklar, but saddly, with Moogie also. I never did like the system of gaining exp and \'spending\' it.

My opinion, you should receive exp as you aquire it. Swing a sword=get a point in sword skill, two if acompanied by a master+ a point for dex+ a point or two for strength, depending on the heft of the weapon you carry and your race.

Magic and other skills basicaly the same thing.

However, to discourage the plague we know as \"power-leveling\' I say impliment a simple concept. Real life. Believe it or not, if you spend all day training, working, or even thinking, you get tired and sore. The next day you get very sore, sometimes barely able to move it hurts so bad. Let power leveler destroy themselves.:evil:

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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 03:19:55 pm »
sorry im a noob but the wipe? is that were every one has to start agian or somethig?

Einhander

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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 06:01:58 pm »
I agrees the Darklar\'s opinion to gain exp and all. But I heard that the gaining exp system will be altered, but not goiong to be easier

Sensotaka

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2005, 07:00:30 pm »
I posted this on another thread before this thread came into being. I copy it here because it seems more on-topic:

I have been thinking this one over and perhaps every time a task was performed you would get the appropriate attribute or attributes raised WITHOUT training (this may already be in the cards, but if it is I am unaware of it).

What is mean is (for example) you go out killing rats for an afternoon\'s fun. Killing rats takes strength, agility and endurance, so in exercising these attributes, you would naturally grow stronger, more agile and develop more stamina. In effect you would be training and gaining experience. The characters should reflect this in some way, not as is where you kill 1k rats and get not even a point on the scale. Of course, the tougher the opponent (relative to the character) the more attribute points you would earn (I say attribute points to differentiate them from skill points as they would be used exclusively to progress atributes and not be able to be used to train in a skill other than a combat skill).

Even if a player is killed he/she should get SOME credit as in all but the breifest of encounters some experience is gained. Of course, with victory comes a bonus.

Formal training would allow a character to increase  attributes even faster just as in RL, but all players would benefit from a scheme of this type (the harder you work the more you earn). New players especially would find this benificial as they wouldn\'t have to die a hundred times (exaduration I know) before being able to make a single kill.

:)

sashok

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2005, 08:37:41 pm »
I agree with Under the Moon on the way exp should be gained.  

Although quite a while ago I introduced a what I believe is a good exp gaining CONTROL system. (maybe I didnt introduce but just saw and really liked it, but was some time ago I forgot)
For example right now you can power level all skills to max, but that\'s really un real even for fantasy setting.  Who can be good at everything?  
I introduced a concept where first of all gaining is grouped into categories.  fighting, magic, crafting, etc.
Look at real life for instance, let\'s say you practice sword for long time and you become really good, but you quit and go onto spear.  after 10 years of practicing spear you will become great at spear, but your sword won\'t be as good (although still somewhat good, but not as good as before)
The point is, if you train one technique, the other goes down.
Lets say you have 150 points to spend on all weapons where  100 is max.  You can\'t have 100 max for all methods of fighting this way, you can have 100 for sword, and 50 for something else.  or you can have 75 for sword and 75 for bow so you become efficient in both.  
The trick is when you train one thing the other goes down, but slower.  For every point you gain in new weapon, the old weapon goes down half a point (or less)

Icefalcon

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 09:07:03 pm »
Well, Draklar, you have my full support. I agree with everything you said. I especially like the idea that you gain experience in talking, travelling, eating, everything you do.  The current system definately needs work.

Merak

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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2005, 04:34:34 am »
Sashok\'s idea is nice but should be refined because it obstruct the concept of expert.

For ex., a duellist who earns its living only with primed duels would have to be an expert in both sword and pistol (no gun, I know, but it is an example). He would practice both regularly and should be at top with both.

With a connected vases system, players would practice only one weapon in order to have 100 in it...

But I agree that unused skill should weaken, (cf http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=15461&boardid=11&sid=206236487da8d15d35825978810ef0ac&page=1#8

Xordan

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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2005, 07:47:12 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Icefalcon
The current system definately needs work.


I\'d say that the system actually needs to finish being implimented. What\'s ingame now isn\'t the whole of what\'s planned.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 07:47:38 am by Xordan »

Ragnar-GD

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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2005, 06:26:31 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Draklar
Well I have few thoughts about the current Planeshift experience gaining system, whereas the general thought is \"It\'s bad\".


Her, as an inspiration, a well designed, price awarded, free-download skill-based ingenious rule-system:

http://www.chaosium.com/forms/coc_quick_start_color.pdf

The system is so simple you can be up and running it within 15 minutes. Anyone telling this would be difficult to implement is simply wrong. Its simpler than D&D AND it is more reealistically, AND more fun. What more can you ask for? Oh yes, and this has been designed 25 years ago...

Strip of the horror-scenario, and there you go.
Everyone should make their own MMORPG

AryHann

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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2005, 01:30:41 am »
Hi,

What Draklar has expressed is, I believe, a common opinion if you are more oriented to role-playing, than power -playing.

It is a well known characteristic of thousands of MMORPGs (and their parents, MUDs, as well, even if with much many valid exceptions) to have a game less and less role-playing oriented.

Just little details would made the game oriented on that direction (output messages from code: ie: instead of having, after you do /who, People online right now, it would be nice to have a \"People visible in Yliakum\" or something), but it is also true that certain things require a bit more than few seconds of fix, and gaining experience is something that needs to be analyzed deeply.

How it is implemented now, we all know very well, it is nothing definitive. It is perfectly true that a criticism can just make a planning process improving and I think this is the case.

What Draklar is suggesting is some deep modification, (and, really, nothing it is impossible to do by code, and NO, I will not implement anything), but also a \"new way\" of approaching things.
If what he suggests is too complicated or too far from what is being planned, some good points can be taken and considered anyway. Especially if the intentions are to make a RPG and not an hack and slash.

It is also true that the status of the game is an alpha test. This means that these aspects can be  temporarily ignored, but I remember perfectly that the atmosphere in MB was much different. Of course, gaining popularity means also gaining people that cannot understand what is RPG and, after years of experience in MUDs field, it is the code that must provide an interesting base for stimulating a proper RPG (if, of course, those are the intentions.).
It would be a pity, though, to see such beautiful world (with a setting that needs a lot of details, in my opinion) populated just for hacking and slashing and not some RPG. Because in that case, you could keep legoman and it wouldn\'t make so much difference ;-)

Ary
« Last Edit: March 23, 2005, 03:13:01 am by AryHann »
AryHann

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