Author Topic: A leveling System  (Read 2068 times)

Valbrandr

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A leveling System
« on: March 28, 2005, 09:58:02 pm »
I would like to have a leveling system in PS.  I understand many think this would limit the expanision and openendedness of your character but we could still keep the rest of the abilties we have.  But instead of just gathering money to power states, you should be able to fight and gain levels and just get minimum benefits like a little HP and maybe the ability to put one random point on either STR, AGI or whatever.  It could be made so that it takes a long time to gain a level in the first place or that the system does not stop  at 99 like most do.  It is just an easier way to compare yourselves to other players besides the equipment we will have in the future.

Seytra

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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 03:25:49 am »
Well, but since PS isn\'t about \"comparing yourself to others\", because it isn\'t about levelling or grinding, but about RP, this is totally superfluous. Levels are a thing of the past, and PS is the future.

Valbrandr

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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 04:00:38 am »
I very much understand your point and I do agree to a certain extent.  Maybe it wont  matter after some of the new equipment and abilities are implemented.  I just meant in addition to everything else have the leveling system.

sesmi

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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 04:41:35 am »
In a game called ultima online (Also the very first graphical MMORPG) You do have sort of levels, but no one else can ever look at them. I think that would work  :]

Aiselyn

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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 04:42:09 am »
Think of it this way...

In reality do you see people being labeled a level 22 cook or a level 74 goalie in a sport? In my opinion, I think Planeshift has done a great job so far with their ideas on player development. It\'s a lot more realistic than most games, since in real life you do need to pay to go to college and so on, and then you need to practice those new skills to perfect them.

I think slapping a level system even on top of what\'s already there would take away from reality.

-Aiselyn


PS: I also think it would cause more powerlevelers to play the game, which would just ruin everything altogether :(

Valbrandr

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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2005, 05:49:05 am »
I think that is kind of the point.  The reason we play these games is to get away from reality once and a while.  How about this.. if we want a realistic game how about removing the monsters too :).  But the way it is now.. and even later when a variety of armor is available what would stop a powered player from taking off his armor just to go challenge a few new players to duels and crush them?  If you cannot examine how strong someone is and who to stay away from in PKing areas then it will take the fun out of it.

Foresteer

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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 07:00:12 am »
Yes its good to NOT know the power of something.. i mean you can guess but you never know that they are exactly \"level 50\" or so

EXP system needs an overhaul IMO as you can get better at something without spending money for \"theoretical knowledge\" a novel concept but *meh* the Theoretical knowledge should just increase the rate you get better at something to a certian point.. not have it where you can learn without it (i havent read a carpentry book or had training in my life.. yet i am an able carpenter JUST through trial and error and working with wood for a long time)

part of this comes from 45 minutes in the sewers fighting everything and 3 tria to show for it (i\'ll go back to playing GTA thank you :P )
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Aiselyn

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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2005, 06:42:13 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Valbrandr
How about this.. if we want a realistic game how about removing the monsters too :).  But the way it is now.. and even later when a variety of armor is available what would stop a powered player from taking off his armor just to go challenge a few new players to duels and crush them?



Don\'t think of monsters as being boogymen or something. You can get attacked by a bear in real life, or a tiger, etc. Monsters in this game are the equivilant of that in my opinion.

Also, I think the opposite would happen when it comes to pking. I think there would be more pking with a level system, from players knowing who they can pk because they are at lower levels. People then wouldn\'t have to be newbs, they would just have to be at lower levels than the pker. Besides, how can you pk when you have to challenge them to do so?

Vandel

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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2005, 07:35:09 pm »
In real life when you go into a dual you can size up your opponent, see how strong or weak they appear to be by looking at the tone, and size of their muscles.  You can see their height, or possibly the way they carry themselves.  When in a karate, judo, or wrestling tournament have you not seen labels.

White, Yellow, Blue, Black belts, upto 16th Degree in Karate.  You\'ll never see a 16th degree black belt fighting a yellow belt.  Labels exist for a reason, it to make things fair, not unfair.  This is again, and a totally absurd reasoning to leave something out of the game.

You get light weight, middle weight, and heavy weight, and other wise for wrestling, and boxing.  You\'ll never see a heavy weight fighting a light weight.  And you\'ll never see a pro fighting an amateur.

sports... you have pewee, midget, AA, AAA, farm teams, whatever.

You have 3 levels of apprenticeship in trades, then you have a masters tickets, and eventually your journeyman when you get your masters ticket in say plumbing, electrical, and carpentry.  

Unfortunately everyone in the game looks basically the same.  You look at the golem race and you\'d instantly thing they\'d pound all other other characters into oblivion if you saw them in real life.

Not showing levels will make arena combat unfair.  You\'ll have the super gladiator running around killing all the lesser characters and looting their stuff.

By not labelling people it\'s actually more unfair than fair.  You should be able to judge someone when they challenge you, or otherwise.

As for leveling there are people out there who never went to college, or set foot in a university and are more than formidable at their trade.

Mentioned is carpentry, and other trade jobs through trial and error.  I have had no training in construction, and I\'ve taught myself over the past 2 years how to rennovate a 1908 beach house.  Total gut down to the wall studs, plumbing, electrical, structural, cabinetry, tiling, drywall, flooring, doors and windows, cement work, how to work a backhoe, and other power machinery.  In real life, you use things and get skill in those things by using them.  The skill system in this RPG does not mimic life at all.  Things seems to be grossly backwards.

I\'m not sure who has played Dungeon Siege, but the leveling system left a bit to be desired, but it incorporated automatic stat adjustments based on how you acted in the world, and is very simialr to real life.

If you used a bow in combat it increased agility more quickly, and a bit of strength.

if you fought with swords it increased strength quickly and agility a little bit.

If you used magic, depending on the magic it increased intelligence, and the magic sphere it came from.

The character labels were totally flexible.  

Let\'s also get back to the reality factor as this seems to be a reoccuring excuse for almost everything.

You got to school to learn the fundamentals.  Some need to go to school to learn faster, where as other choose have the ability to learn on there own.

I started programming at the age of 6, by time I got to highschool I knew more than my programming teachers, and at that point, I already had job offers.  What\'s the point of paying to go to school? There was none, I was running a computer business, and working on the side for 2 other businesses related to programming, and networking.  

To assume everyone needs to pay for education is unfair, you\'re projected the biases of society onto game players.  I\'ll bet everyone playing RPG\'s is a outcast, derilect, or geious in their own right on some way or fashion and hasn\'t attended, or fails to recognize that you need college/univerisity to make it in real life, so why implement it in the game.

In fairness, those that choose to go school or pay for training could level faster.  I haven\'t payed that much attention to the skill lists.  But it might be more real life if you had to purchase training to get a skill.  And then it could be trained through use instead of money.

School costs between $40000 to $120000 for an average university education.  You go to something like harvard you\'ve just spent more money than the average person makes in a lifetime.  Have they gotten any better of an education? It depends on the field, and the individual.

Why not alter character generation so you start out with some basic skills as assigned by your parents, etc as it\'s doing, and blocking all other skills until you\'ve paid for a manual of some type to start the skill.  Depending on the skill it varies in cost.  You can increase that skill through use upto a certain level based on your basic attributes.  When you want to pass say level three, maybe you need a more advanced manual.  And so on, and so on... Upto say level 9 or 10, you need to find a specialist trainer, who is capable of unlocking upto a maximum of an additional 5 levels.

It\'s unrealistic to have people running around with level 70 in sword training.  If people are maxing out skills, power playing you\'re going to have imbalances anyways.  Recognizing what can be controlled for an objective and constructive purpose and what is pointless power limitations on character development hinders the fun factor.

Life is all about status, this seems to be more like a hippie commune.  Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m a spiritual person... but without status, you can\'t tell a good plumber from a bad one, or a good teacher from a bad teacher.  Just because you have a degree does not make you good at what you do.  It just means you have a good memory, persistence, and a bit of money.  In the past, I\'ve had to cover and take over for more univerisity programmers who supposedly knewitall, the \"I have a degree types\", that just deserved a good beating with a keyboard.  Growl.  But in fairness, you get others who think they know all because they did it already.  I fall into this category, and some of the times, I deserve my own beating a keyboard.  It\'s the juxtapose of life.  But to beat everyone who plays the game with a keyboard whether they deserved it or not, is to impose the same injustice and unfairness of natural existence.


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Aiselyn

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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2005, 03:43:33 am »
I don\'t quite know where you\'re going with that personally. Are you agreeing with him or me or just on the sidelines? lol

Status: I do agree on that. I don\'t think that necessarily implies a leveling system though, not like Diablo II anyway where you basically have like 99 levels, which would be what I\'m strongly against happening to this game.

However, having the different belts in karate wouldn\'t be bad in my opinion. It would probbaly mean a different type of leveling system where say every 10 points of a certain skill would mean a different belt or whatever. I think that would actually help categorize characters in a more realistic sort of way. This wouldn\'t necessarily happen with all skills, but it would be kind of neat for different statuses to be applied to certain skills. (with different types of statuses for different skills if that makes sense).

Vandel

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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2005, 05:48:28 am »
Heh... it\'s kinda of a hodge podge... agreeing with you both, and trying to apply it in some way to present it in a real life scenario to clarify how it might be used in the game.

It\'s difficult otherwise to move through life.  You wouldn\'t want a chicken farmer, flying you across the ocean in a 747, any more than you want to get involved in combat with a seasoned demon slayer when you\'re still fighting rats.  How we look at people, body language, and otherwise, let\'s us collect and categorize things to be able to tell difference.


Let me use another example.  One of my brothers is severely color blind.  This wasn\'t discovered for some time.  A teacher asked him one day what colour a grannysmith apple was, and he said \'red\'... when in fact, we all know that they have green skins.  Going through fruits and such, he began learning colours through association with objects.  But what happened when something that was an \'Apple\' turned out to have the ability to be different colours.  

This goes for character models in PS.  You cannot tell what Dwarf is the \'red\' version of the apple, and what Dward is the \'green\' version of the apple.  In my brothers colour blind, to associative state, he we have said that, because it\'s a Dward, it must be \'red\'.  When he\'s really fighting a \'green\' dwarf and got his butt kicked.

Is it fair to let him his butt kicked because he was unable to differentiate the difference in colours? Any more than we technically can\'t see any labels of differention to prevent the same from happening to us with higher level characters.

Just because someone isn\'t fighting with a weapon, and wearing armour,doesn\'t mean they don\'t have super stats, and don\'t require those weapons to kill someone who may be a little seasoned and not even stand a chance (phew, run on sentence).  This is a gross imbalance, created by trying to create balance.

The problem is locating what can and cannot be be discerned about someone.  Now maybe you\'re getting into a different skill, or a traditional wisdom check.  But how do you determine the criteria for a successful \'know character\' type check.

City records of some type? Or keeping track of who has trained with what NPC, and having the ability to query information about that person.  A \'know character\', or \'read mind\', similar spell/scroll maybe.

There\'s only so much you can figure out from looking at a character.  If you were a spy, or governement official, you\'d run there fingerprints, social insurance/secutity numbers, credit check, dig through there gabage, look up prior residences, talk there old neighbours, teachers, search public records, new papers, and otherwise.  How feasible, or worthwhile anything like this would be in PS, is negligible, or questionable, or totall needed.

There\'s already hard coded guidlines, and turnbased style combat in a real-time environment.  It\'s kind of mixing two totally different systems.

This results in you having to group to fight monsters, and monsters can auto group to fight you.  But your ability to shift around, fight, and literally have limited if any actual control over combat is crude at best.  It\'s a limbo between the two, that\'s likely going to create more problems that it solves.  However, in all fairness, it\'s an alpha tech demo.  And how much of this will change, or stay the same is a huge \'unknown\'.  Blah, Blah, Blah.

As for the super levels... there are people in PS that currently claim to have level 70+ in sword training,  which sounds very much like Diablo, superstatused.  Hence, the wipe... In the alpha, there\'s not enough to do to self-balance an economy, for that matter look at the evolution of NPC trading.  Kill rats, mine ore, or do limited quests, assuming they\'re working.  There just aren\'t enough options to generate a viable quest system.

Further, with quests, you can\'t just stick a item somewhere in a random location, as some other than the person it was intended for may find it instead of you.

There\'s no dragons, so it rules out resucing the kings daughter, in a save the maiden type venture.  Since creatures spawn, you can really do a farmer type thing, \'there\'s a group of goblins eating my cow, can you do something about them?\'... however...

In a viable economy, and properly laid out item system, something could be established to generate completely random actions and triggered quests based on supply and demand.

--------------------------------------------

Let\'s run through a different system that doesn\'t require so heavily on NPC\'s, it\'s entirely based on the natural evolution and human interaction with the world.

We introduce jobs.  Hmmm... this is starting to sound somewhat SIMS like.  But it\'s RP.

Alright... there\'s a town such as the Plaza.  There\'s a few key NPC characters, maybe a Mayor/Appointed Official, School populated with NPC teachers who can teach skills) and the rest is left upto the inhabitants.

Based on skills, jobs require a certain base set of levels to apply for.  The NPC can be moderated by GM\'s, and Jewelers, Magic Shop Keeps, Blacksmiths, and reasons to develop skills for a RP purpose in the game is born.

Merchant guilds, bizarres, and such, are created that mimic flea markets, and now blacksmiths need people to supply coal, iron, and might make a trip to the local magic shop because a PS player has requested the item be bestowed with a certain magical properties.  Quests no longer serve a purpose, as they have been replaced by natural job functions.

Here\'s where the limited chat radius that has been implemented serves the best purpose.  People can\'t hear what they aren\'t near, but you can kind of eavesdrop on conversations when you\'re in the vacinity.

Let\'s expand a little bit.

Player X who is the blacksmith needs ore badly, he might state he\'s willing to pay through a post, or inquiring around town that he\'s willing to pay Y amount of trias for Z amount of material.  A quest can be posted to the local Town Crier that there\'s a required job/quest.  Player X gives the reward money to the Town Crier so there\'s no funny business with people not paying up for the bounty, and it creates a economy driven quest system.  When a player completes the quest, the item is given to the crier.  Supply and demand creates the economy based on what cost for someone to create items.  

This doesn\'t naturally negate the ability to use the \'Trade\' function already available.  But the Quest comes into fashion that Player X knows he can\'t do task based on his skills, so he needs another player to do it for him.

Time to create NPC\'s has just be drastically shortened.  And a natural law system takes hold.  So now instead of populating 1000\'s of NPC, you can work on getting all the skills needed instead, which were going to be implemented anyways.

Leveling is now desireable, quests are generated automatically without having to worry about Player 1 broadcasting to all other players about how to finish a quest, because the players RPing int the game determine how the quest pans out.  

Seems like a much more realistic system, and easier in a sense, than what\'s currently being developed.  There\'s 1000\'s of people willing to play, let them evolve the game.  It requires less interaction, and naturally you\'ll get villians and paladins evolving to maintain order and balance.  It\'s inevitable, as it\'s cause and effect.

This went way OT, but kinda explores a new reason to study skills.


-=[Life is Good, RPG\'s are better!]=-

Externals

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2005, 08:02:30 am »
Holy crap what a post. I cant match that but i totally agree with you man. Hidden stats really just make you blind to the other person. You cant tell anything about them. Theres no way at all, not by armor, stats, anything. As for the player/NPC economy, i think your onto something big :)
Of course you should fight fire with fire, you should fight everything with fire.   :P  Xantherus Icer  :P

Foresteer

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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2005, 08:04:28 am »
Somebody has played or followed wish haven\'t they? am i right? ;)

Wow you think about RPG and ways to inprove it as much or more then i do 8o

What about people studied in body language acting weak for the purpose of decieption? (wow there is so much in those 2 posts its gonna take some time for me to figure out how to address it all XD)
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Vandel

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2005, 09:05:13 am »
Wish... no... I\'ve studied world economics, and spent most of my childhood to present day pondering RPG game systems.  I was hunting goblins before I was finger painting.  Just looked it up though.  Looks interesting.

I think most of what we\'re discussin/outlining, seems to be a logical course of action.  It\'s relatively easy to implement them, and get maximum fun, role playability.

Most of everything I\'ve suggested requires limited code.

Or very limited modifications to existing code.  It might also require abandoming code, which sucks.  I hate having to let something I spent years developing get thwarted, because of something I failed to ponder, or an easier way to do it.  Sometimes I just code for the sake of coding.

Planing though... should be inevitable.  How much of this stuff actually gets pondered to a useable state? And what sort of chances would anything like this make it into PS?

**EDIT** All I did for 18 years was play and DM/GM RPG tournaments and write adventures.  Most of my life was spent playing someone else.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 09:07:16 am by Vandel »


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Under the moon

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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2005, 10:53:51 am »
Levels are a good thing...but assigning numbers to them is bad. There is a better way, which has been discussed in old threads that I am to lazy to find at the moment.

Skill is relative. That is the key. Lets take three guys. One is a bit small- but wiry, one is fairly fit, and one is bulked up. Each is going to have a different reaction to the others. The wiry fellow will look at the fit thinking, \"He is a bit of a threat.\" He will then look at the bulked and say, \"There is no way I can beat him.\" The others would have similar reactions based on how the others look. Numbered levels would work fine here.

But this is only based on strength. Now we need to take the other stats into the equation. Lets give the wiry fellow high dex, intel, and some martial arts skills, while giving the brute high strength and stamina, but lower intelligence. The fit fellow will be a master chef who is rather good with an ax and has keen intuition, but has low speed. Now tell me who is the higher level?

BEEP! Times up. The answer is any of the above. You could consider each one superior to the others. But what really matters is how they perceive each other. They see not levels, but text describing the others. This is how it would pan out now:

Wiry looks at Fit: [text] Ben looks rather fit, though not too quick on his feet. He handles his ax with familiarity.  [text]

Wiry looks at Brute: [text] Joe is very strong and large. His eyes are a bit vacant, his movements clumsy.  [text]

Fit looks at Wiry: [text] Smooth, quick movements show Tom\'s true danger. Your size gives you an advantage.  [text]

Fit looks at Brute: [text] Joe\'s mass makes him a threat, but he may be easily fooled.  [text]

Brute looks at Wiry: [text] Tom is quite small, but quick. No match for your strength.  [text]

Brute looks at Fit: [text] Ben\'s strength is a small threat. His ax is a danger.  [text]


If it came down to a fight, that is how the others should see each other. Not silly levels. Yes, I know it would be hard to code and would take a lot of work. But in an RP world, that is the way to go. No one could say, \"I\'m a level # whatsit! Fear me!\" because each and every player would perceive them from their own character\'s unique point of view.

*waits for Vandal to shoot holes in post*