Teleport To Town (IMPORTANT)

[Pestilence]

hmm well enough games that do have townportal spells so why not here? Cast it and you go back to the last city you visited or something.

Nothing major about that. I mean we have the spawn button now and haven\'t seen anyone finding a way to misuse it.

Asuming one day the spawncommand will be gone, why not let the function remain in a spell or an item?

Minimaps? Like them but don\'t need them up to the devs what they feel fits best Not priority anyhow. A compas? Well would help sometimes to see what is north just to keep your barings and shouldn\'t be hard to program. But not a priority for me either aslong as you have the /spawn button incase you\'re really really lost.

[Moogie]

There\'s several reasons we don\'t want teleportation.

1) It would allow people to flee from combat, or escape if they get lost in a maze, trapped by monsters, or generally find themselves in a risky situation. There is no way you can code something that can judge whether a player is in possible danger or not and allow them to teleport out or not.

2) We don\'t want magical teleportation to exist in the world of Yliakum. The /spawn command exists for debug purposes while the game is in these early stages of development. There will indeed be many exits from the Death Realm in the future that lead to areas inside Yliakum, but the DR by then will be many times larger than it is now (it is designed to be an entire world of its own).

3) Compasses and minimaps have been discussed at length many times before. We\'re not going to have \'radar\' things with little dots and blips showing you people moving around and stuff like that, but it\'s quite possible we might have a compass at some point, and Cartographers will definitely be able to create ingame maps and sell them to other players.

For more info use the Search button

[Vandel]

This thread is going OT... weee... Peace, don\'t read this as hostile... it\'s all good, just playing devil\'s advocate.

Originally posted by Moogie
There\'s several reasons we don\'t want teleportation.

1) It would allow people to flee from combat, or escape if they get lost in a maze, trapped by monsters, or generally find themselves in a risky situation. There is no way you can code something that can judge whether a player is in possible danger or not and allow them to teleport out or not.

Call me blatantly ignorant, but in all my years of RPG playing in various flavours, spells of \'Door\', \'Portable Hole\', \'Minor Teleport\', \'Major Teleport\', \'Phase\', \'Astraal Gate\', and otherwise have been readily used with success for everything you have described.  As true to the RPG scene as this game claims to be, it\'s missing some CORE RPG applications.  Not that I\'m for them, but suggested as an alternate means to get to the death realm, as opposed to dying.

There\'s restricting characters, then there\'s being retarded about it the reasons why and why not? These reason\'s why not, are perfect reasons of why they were put in every other game.  You still have to train for them, wizards for instance, or spell casters in general often found themselves in the middle of something they couldn\'t handle, it\'s the nature of being a spellcaster having total control over aspect of what is the world.  These players are typically weaker than say a fighter who is capable of sticking what you described.  The more I read through these forums, I\'m getting the picture most of you have actually played an RPG.  So you know what I\'m talking about...

If I had to run between maps, or levels while playing diablo I & II, I\'d have boycotted blizzard permanently.  There\'s a line with all needs and wishes... depending on the complexity and size of these maps, it could be a viable and totally reasonable request.

Originally posted by Moogie
2) We don\'t want magical teleportation to exist in the world of Yliakum. The /spawn command exists for debug purposes while the game is in these early stages of development. There will indeed be many exits from the Death Realm in the future that lead to areas inside Yliakum, but the DR by then will be many times larger than it is now (it is designed to be an entire world of its own).

The bigger the world gets, all the more reason to teleport, or otherwise.  Who wants to waste 15-20 minutes running in between towns, and that\'s assuming your not trying to get back and forth between your house, castle, land or territory and some other distant land.  This is absurd logic, and totally unreasonable.  This game has enough waits (hard coded) and otherwise to make it grossly detractive, adding more is not going to make it any more popular, I predict a player revolt when the /spawn function vanishes.  It\'s inevitable.

Originally posted by Moogie
3) Compasses and minimaps have been discussed at length many times before. We\'re not going to have \'radar\' things with little dots and blips showing you people moving around and stuff like that, but it\'s quite possible we might have a compass at some point, and Cartographers will definitely be able to create ingame maps and sell them to other players.

For more info use the Search button

The search button is useless... it pulls up threads with god knows what name usually irrelevant to what it contains, and people like me tend to take the OT, instead of pulling up the post which contains the words searched for.  It\'s a pain sifting through 350+ threads that matched your search terms, and only 1 of them has what you were actually looking for.

Mini-maps I\'m in total agreement have no place whatsoever in this game.

Anyways... The cartographer skill sounds interesting, but unless it\'s automapping, you\'re going to end up with people selling fraudulent maps, or say in a white board function, I think this gets away from another major thing you were trying to avert, players from disclosing to other characters things such as where to go for quests, treasures, or otherwise.  Another nightmare of a coding problem.  Mapping a three dimensional scape set of tunnels.  I\'m foresseing an impossibility.

Each of these replies seems hypocritical, invalid, or logically flawed, or bringing up contradictions to the nature of what an RPG is, and how the developers wanted the game to progress.

It\'s thwarted in the forums, but now it\'s okay to do it in the game... when it\'s clearly stated on the players_cheating.html that no one is supposed to disclose anything to anyone that might spoil game play.  But now you have the potential to do it with maps that you can possible sell or give to other players.  Huh? Did I miss something?

This is inevitable, it\'s the risk you have of designing a multi-user dungeon.  I can appreciate all the work going into the game, but maybe more thought needs to go into how quests are handled, instead of hardcoding them, maybe they need to be dynamic, so no 2 quests are the same.

Hard coding is self-defeating to the nature of real-time RPG\'s.

[Moogie]

Firstly, Planeshift doesn\'t aim to \'be like every other MMORPG\', so just because other RPGs have it, doesn\'t mean we have to.

Secondly, PS is about roleplaying. Diablo is a hack\'n\'slash, it only cares that they can teleport wherever they want quickly to show off their ub3r-1337 skillz and then magically appear in town to sell their phat lewt and back again. So what if it takes you 10-15 minutes to walk somewhere? Buy a mount, and it won\'t take so long. Simple. I\'d understand if you were paying to play this game, you\'d expect the developers to pander to everything the player wants so he can level as fast as he can to get as much out of the money as he can. But most, if not all, of those companies don\'t give a damn about RP or realism, and have brainwashed people to expect that sort of thing from other games. Well, sorry to disappoint.

Thirdly, the search function works absolutely fine as long as you don\'t search for members. Keywords will work.

Fourthly, we don\'t want guides and maps created out of game. You seem to have the wrong idea about things- of course people can create ingame maps, since it\'ll all be RP. But we don\'t want the out-of-game sharing of ingame information, you see? It\'s the same reason we don\'t want a Trading board on these forums, sure it\'s convinient (if you\'re paying for the game and want as much for the money blah blah), but it just ruins roleplay, and PS is all about roleplay.

I would have structured this post better but I was watching French and Saunders, highly distracting.

[Hierro]

What about Morrorwind travel sistem? you have a set of \"strider\" (i don\'t remember the name at the moment, but they are big animal used such as bus-car) in every big city what is used to travel from one city to some other (not all destination is avaible from all city).

And there is also 2 spells, called \"sing\" and \"recall\" used for signing your current position and recalling you back to that position. I think that this could be implemented because it\'s an one way travel, you can recall back your self on time but you can\'t go back at the place you use the recall spell.
For example, you cast the sign spell at the city and go hunting, after some times you want to come back to city and use the recall. Now you are in the city but the recall spell is now useless as it point to city.
What about this system ?

[provisionist1]

And this is why planeshift is awesome and has soooooooooo much potential!!!

Just my thoughts

Xirius

[Externals]

The recall thing... well, since its only leading you back to one town, everywhere else you would have to explore or walk. I would think it would seem reasonable. Besides, in the future, it would suck to walk through the death realm to go places. (Die to travel..)

[Vandel]

Originally posted by Moogie
Firstly, Planeshift doesn\'t aim to \'be like every other MMORPG\', so just because other RPGs have it, doesn\'t mean we have to.

That\'s fantastic, part of the reason I am so interested in what\'s going on, and how it\'s growing, what it\'s all about, and the people behind it.  I\'m not saying every aspect of every RPG needs to be in the game.

Let\'s put this into a realism scenario, as everything seems to float back that way.

I\'m in North America, you are in the United Kingdom.  Aside from the internet, and this forum theres probably a pretty good chance neither of us would ever have had an opportunity without it to be doing this.  As our needs to keep in touch, communicate, and explore the world around us, we naturally (or unnaturally depending how you at it) expanded our knowledge and eventually our modes of travel.

In the early day our ancenstors travelled by frozen bridges from continent to continent.

Let\'s fast forward a couple 10\'s of thousands of years, and we find people using horses chariots, it worked really well.

We\'re are lazy, it\'s well known... so we invented the car, a few years later... We arrive at the airplane.

Alright.  Why did we create the airplane? And how does this have anything to do with this... easy... Airplanes are a crude model of \'teleportation\'.

When we travel short distances we can use things like walking, I used to run 10 miles every day, 20 miles on fridays until I messed up my knees in a bad motorcycle accident (involved a short fat bald business man, on a cell phone, driving a minivan, \'nuf said).  

Prior to getting my motorcycle though I tried bi-cycling 2000 miles.  I got about 2 days into it, and ended up suffering from dehydration, and hear exhaustion.  So I caugth a ride back to the closest airport, and flew back home.

Hmmmm... what you are suggesting was eliminating the airplane, and my ride back when I was in a bind.  Could I have cycled back, no in this real life scenario I was incapacitated and in a very unfamiliar place, my desire was to return quickly to a place I was familar with to regroup, and reasses my predicament, and goals.

I later ended up flying to the destination.  I could easily have tried to walk it, or ride my bicycle again, but I realized after what I had gone through the first time, it was a absurd to try it again, so the overpriced cost of the plane ticket on short notice seemed like a viable alternative.

This is as real to life, and role playing as you can get.

To eliminate such a vessel, and to create a world hypothetically as diverse and as large as our own world, could segregate and limit diversity.  It had nothing to do with hacking and slashing monsters, it had to do with a need to escape a situation I had no foresight whatsoever into not being able to do what I intended.

In all fairness, I opted to get a motorcycle, it let me travel great distances quickly.  2600 miles in 54 hours.  But my motorcycle serves me no purpose whatsoever to come and visit you overseas.  I can\'t drive across water.  Even crossing the rocky mountains in reality, I could never have taken into account that the difference in carbeuration would so drastically affect the performance of my motorcycle that I\'d be unable to get the bike out of first gear.  So we get mounts, they\'ll suffer stamina, as real as this roleplaying is suggested, people get tired, as do horses, and in some circumstances it would appear that even my trusty motorcycle was afflicted by adverse conditions it wasn\'t at the time configured/maintenced for.  But I sure as heck would take the airplane, with my motorcycle if I wanted to make a couple laps around the Isle of Man.  Competition is human nature.  And finding ways to traverse great distances quickly and easily is the logical thing to do.  

Originally posted by Moogie
Secondly, PS is about roleplaying. Diablo is a hack\'n\'slash, it only cares that they can teleport wherever they want quickly to show off their ub3r-1337 skillz and then magically appear in town to sell their phat lewt and back again.

So what if it takes you 10-15 minutes to walk somewhere? Buy a mount, and it won\'t take so long. Simple. I\'d understand if you were paying to play this game, you\'d expect the developers to pander to everything the player wants so he can level as fast as he can to get as much out of the money as he can.

Diablo was a really bad example for RP, but I brought it up becuase of the size of the maps the game had.  How is sitting in the sewers killing rats in PS which drop the same thing all the time any different, at least in Diablo you weren\'t always guaranteed a drop.  I realize it\'s hack and slash, but it\'s also about locating, developing and creating items to take on larger and greater creatures.  RPG were the promise in our minds of doing something fatastic we could never do in real life... Which leads me back to the SIMS remark.

Using the blacksmith skills in PS, include Bowyer, Weaponsmithing, and Armoursmithing.  Why would you need these if you weren\'t going to give the option for users to create weapons for hacking and slashing.  Why would you need bigger and better weapons.  Why do you need magic at all? It\'s not in any way like real life.

If a game is progressive, where\'s its done like a story-line, or in chapters, there should be no reason to have to travel.  The world maps, are vast, they look great, but after running back and forth through the same fields I\'ve spent more time running looking for things than actually RP in PS.  It\'s a waste of time.

Why do young people put 140+ dB car stereo\'s in their vehicles.  Why do people drive a mercedes, or ferarri, or maclaren F1, when they could just as easily walk.  Why do people attend Harvard, or MIT, instead of the local dead beat university?  Why did I put 24,000 watts of speakers in the garage?

I\'m an totally for quests, and RP, over hack and slash, I love a good problem and riddle as much as the next person.  It\'s part of the reason I spent so much time doing puzzles, models, and eventually left programming to take up construction, it was more hands on, let me do something tangible with my ideas that other could see.  Why did michaelangelo paint the cistine chapel? Why did the egyptians create the pyramids?  What\'s the purpose of the Las Vegas Strip?

We\'ll run through another couple of examples, I just built a new garage in the back yard.  It rained everysingle day we worked on it, over 4 months, there was 6 days where it did not rain.  I was doing this entirely myself.  I am into RP, in life, and in games, as illustrated....

I had to install a foundation, footers, and new garage pad.  The problem was I had 2 feet of water that accumulated in the back yard, and was causing all the structures in the yard and the neighbouring yards to sink into the ground.  So I devised a clever plan to install an ellaborate drainage system.  This involved 3000 cu. ft. of drains, over 210,000 lbs of stone, and nearly 40 cu. yards of concrete.  I could have spent 6 years digging the trenches by hand, but I\'m not sure if you realize how much 90 cu. yards of dirt is, you\'d have done the same thing I did.   I outsourced a hauling service, and rented a backhoe.  Let\'s throw some problems in here.  I also had to remove the old garage that was full of 120 cu. yards of garbage.  Let\'s RP it out.

We had a huge tree in the backyard that needed to be removed, and I scheduled and payed for the first chunk of the rock delivery 165,000 lbs of stone.  Unfortunately I wasn\'t around when the rock got delivered and the guy dropped it in the middle of the driveway.  The tree was 80\' behind the rockpile (this is big pile, 8\' tall and about 40\' around), and due to scheduling problems the rocks arrived before the tree removal service.  The digger wasn\'t scheduled to arrive for another week.

I had to figure out a way to move the rock out of the driveway, to let the tree service in, so I could dig the ditches lay in the stone, call in concrete for the footers, arrange a shipment of sand, and lay down a concrete pad.  To say the least, I had to move it by shovel and wheelbarrow.  In between this, when the city redid the road, they failed to put in a storm drain, the city suddenly decided after I was in the middle of the work, that he didn\'t look over it carefully, and it suddenly wasn\'t okay.  We had no hookup, every single day it was taking 6 sump pumps to remove the water from the ditches so I could work everyday because it was raining.  To add further insult... each day it rained, the ditches were collapsing on themselves, so I had to continually redig the ditches.  Let\'s say the ditches were arranged through the backyard in such a way, so as to prevent me to use the digger.  And there was 10 cu. yards of dirt sitting in a dumpster that at the start of the project was 10\' from the ditch, and wasn\'t removed before the hauling service was short trucks from a couple breakdowns, and through the collapsing walls it ended up nearly caving into the ditch,  This would have required a crane, and likely repairing the foundation because a huge dumpster loaded with wet dirt just knocked a hole in it.

I think at this point you get the basics of the RP nightmare.  If there was a hell, I was in it during that period.  In this instance, I was a programmer trying to RP a Construction Foreman, Architech, Mason, Heavy Machinery Operator, Accountant, and labourer.  Did I level up quickly? You bet I did... did I have any prior training in these skill... no I did not.  I had seen a couple DIY shows on the home and garden channel which hardly constituted training.

[Vandel]

Originally posted by Moogie
But most, if not all, of those companies don\'t give a damn about RP or realism, and have brainwashed people to expect that sort of thing from other games. Well, sorry to disappoint.

I\'ve been playing RPG\'s longer than you\'ve been alive.  I was a geek, had no life, was a loner, who was stuck in the country.  It was a 3 hour walk to town, and a 1 1/2 hour bike ride, or 20 minutes by car.  When my parents moved up north, I moved to town.  At that time, I still did not drive, the horses were gone, and I no longer even had a bi-cycle.  It\'s a 4 hour car ride to the cottage from where I was living.  Could I have walked, sure...

My closest friends when I was younger were a good 2 hours by bi-cycle away.  We\'d meet there every day over the weekends to play D&D.  I was 13-16 at the time, to young to drive.  We had horses, and in that instance, it wasn\'t viable to ride them, the distances were to dangerous, and when I got to my destination, my friend did not have a barn to house my horse while I spent endless hours RPing.  Could my parents have driven me? Yes, would they? No.  I pondered bulding a one-seater gyro-copter built from an old lawnmower engine.  I did this because I didn\'t have a choice.  I was too young, to inexperienced, and lacked the funds to afford, concoct, and design better alterior more effective ways of travelling from place to place.  Again, this is a real life scenario.

Why do rich people have private learjets? Or personal helicopters? Why are researchers throughout the world still working on devising real world teleportation.

Originally posted by Moogie
Fourthly, we don\'t want guides and maps created out of game. You seem to have the wrong idea about things- of course people can create ingame maps, since it\'ll all be RP. But we don\'t want the out-of-game sharing of ingame information, you see?

Alright, fair enough... but couldn\'t someone just as easily broadcast solutions in the game? Or make notes and such on a map? I can\'t draw for crap with a mouse.  Give me a pencil and paper, and I\'ll scan it into the computer and e-mail it to the interested party.  This is in direct violation of PS gaming ethics.  I still fail to see how this can\'t be exploited in the game.  At time of final release, it\'s going to be inevitable.  You can police all you want... You\'ll never get rid of all the drug pushers, bank robbers, serial killers, rapists, pedophiles, and other things that exist in the real world.  These things are real.  You\'re forcing everyone one to be \'Lawfully Good\'.  When a character may wish to play \'Chaotically Evil\'.  To force a philosophical belief on a world that\'s attempting to mimic reality and it\'s totally one-sided you\'ve distorted natural law.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

This is spawned in the \'Ideas on Assination thread\'.

This is impossible to implement, and hardly effective, but a core role and branch of characters in past very successful RP systems.  It might make more sense to scrap the \'Challenge\' button, and replace with a ban on fighting in town.  You leave town, or a safe area, and you\'re just as fair game as the rats in the sewers.

Now we\'ve created an imbalance.  Weaker characters are eailsy killed.  There\'s the \'judgment knights\' in the game, but what good do they do.

Pickpocketing.  This is pointless.  Someone steals something from you, and you can\'t retaliate because they can decline your challenge to fight? You have just created an imbalance by to trying to control to much of the rules on what you can do as RP.  This is not RP at all.

Originally posted by Moogie
It\'s the same reason we don\'t want a Trading board on these forums, sure it\'s convinient (if you\'re paying for the game and want as much for the money blah blah), but it just ruins roleplay, and PS is all about roleplay.

That\'s acceptable.  And would defeat the purpose of merchants, and merchant guilds, fair trade, those that choose to make a living in the world possible running a shop.  You want to create something cool, people should not only be able to buy a house, they should be able to open and run a business.

And by doing so, all the rules of natural law should occur.  Thieves should be able to break into shops and steal.  Scale walls to raid magic shops.  It\'s the nature of a thieving character.  And creates business for magic users who can cast spell, glyphs, guard dogs, or hired help. mercenaries or otherwise to create a natural system of supply and demand.  This is RP, this is life.  PS seems hellbent on controlling aspects that were never meant to be controlled in a RPG.  It\'s not that I\'ve been brainwashed at all, it\'s exactly what a good RP system should aim to do.  Mimic life, in the right ways.  This creates a yield for bounty hunters.  But defeats the purpose of the death realm.  If you can escape unharmed, or pass through a death dungeon to return to a spawn point, what\'s the point, it\'s what makes life sacred.  Some will choose to live more dangerously than others, while some will choose to group and start guild wars, slay dragons in groups, or on a solo quest.  The life of the military sniper, or the life of the military tactical batallion.  These are natural facets of life that toally belong in a true to life RPG.  And I see no reason why these facets are being reasoned away foolishly from PS.  I agree 100% this game has great potential to be the greatest world ever created, but I think these rules are going to hinder it, more than promote it.

Is this the desire to create a fantastic commune, or a world that\'s as exciting to explore as out real life world?

Believe when, I\'m not trying to defeat to the purpose of PS.  I want to see it succeed, grow and turn into the greatest mechanation of virtual reality ever spawned.

Originally posted by Moogie
I would have structured this post better but I was watching French and Saunders, highly distracting.

Hey, it\'s all good... TV is just a different form of RP. sorry if I\'m being such a pain in the butt.  This is just a real life exercise in RPG\'s.

Peace...

[Externals]

Wow..

[Vandel]

I love the one liners... Wish I could do that... Trix are for kids.  Peace man...

[Vandel]

Moogie...

What game are you most looking forward to?

I\'m interested in every Blizzard\'s game and I\'m waiting the release of Warcraft III to see if it will really change the way we consider a strategy game and a RPG game.

I leave it up to you to figure out who said that.

And after that why would the demon corporation Blizzard be mentioned as his most anticipated game if he wasn\'t somewhat interested in the mechanics of those games?

Personally, aside from hack and slash, blizzard did a very good job on nearly all their games.  And a lot of those features should be modelled for a successful RPG.  And apparently I\'m not the only one by the statement above, he realizes it also. Peace...

[Tharizdun]

Vandel, I love the \'old man\' rants as much as anybody, but you forgot to mention how you walked uphill both ways, in the snow, and how you liked it that way.

Getting back ontopic, teleporting is no more and no less realistic than conjuring up fire or inflicting magical plagues. You may as well say \"Want to kill something with fire? Tough, get a sword and do it\" as \"Wanna teleport? Tough, walk or buy a mount, and it won\'t take so long\".

Its arbitrary and inconsistent to support one but not the other. Game developers though can be abitrary and inconsistent as much as they please, its pretty much up to them what features and spells to implement and support.

[Vandel]

Lol... indeed... Heh, It\'s not so much the rant as the long winded illustration.  I like your way better.  It\'s hard to paint a picture without a 1000 words.  Damn writer in me.

Served to illustrate a hodge podge of other ideas...

Originally posted by Tharizdun
Vandel, I love the \'old man\' rants as much as anybody, but you forgot to mention how you walked uphill both ways, in the snow, and how you liked it that way.  

I\'ve had my share of those as well... It\'s not to illustrate one bit of my enjoyment.  It sucked.  I hated it...

This was in rebuttal to...

Originally posted by Moogie
So what if it takes you 10-15 minutes to walk somewhere? {in reference to travelling in PS}

[Pestilence]

LOL Vandel you have an art in making long long posts and still exually have a good point