Author Topic: @devs: Some feedback and suggestions from a newbie  (Read 2322 times)

DonGuitar

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@devs: Some feedback and suggestions from a newbie
« on: April 17, 2005, 03:46:56 am »
Hello,

much has been done since last time I (quickly/roughly) looked into planeshift - which was maybe 2 years ago? Dunno.

Here\'s some feedback and suggestions - some thing already has been said but maybe i can add a personal flavor to it. Also if you think: that can be easily be done with a macro - or something like that - then kepin in mind the \'newcomer\'\'s perspective.

Stairs:
A good trick to improve movement on stairs is to use additionally invisble planes on them. This way the walk/run movement up-/downwards is smooth - no popping. Collision detection is not accurate anyways and in many situations this looks better.

Fallen from edges or walking on edges:
I think you should add some invisble walls to prevent falling down or to go onto things like small walls and so. People - especially newbies - will easily fall down i.e. by walking on the edges of bridges and so. Usually they don\'t know the controls very well and don\'t know how much they are allowed to fall down without dying. Maybe you add a \'Security\' check for very very low level characters.

The death underworld:
When having died one spawns in the underworld which is not only very dark but also full of possibilities to die through falling again. I did die 10 times or so until I found the way because:

- no gamma correction, very dark and I didn\'t saw anything until i pushed the brighness of my monitor up - but users shouldn\'t be forced to do so.
- sudden end of way: very soon the way ends suddenly  and you fall down if you don\'t know it because it\'s hard to see when the camera is behind the character
- small way and inaccurate collision detection: when tring to go up the small way of the tower, usually collision detection does pushe one heavily to the edge provoking to fall down again. It\'s very hard to go up because of the inaccurate collision detection.

To resume: this is really a frustration point. You shouldn\'t do that for newbies if you want them to continue playing the game/alpha/beta. Either change the collision system to \'mesh/triangle\' in certain areas or adopt level design to it.

In the character creation process the font is small and hard to read on the background. I think this should be improved.

GUI Sliders do not always work correctly. In addition to that chat-text sometimes overlap the input field: usually it\'s hard to get the normal layout back.

I had cases where the textures of particle systems weren\'t loaded/used: i.e. in the temple.

\' char not displayed correctly in chat/info text.

I am not sure if the position of the duelling query and it\'s buttons is good - I had once clicked on \'yes\' because I wanted to click on a rat and it then popped up. I don\'t need to say that I was killed quickly, not? :)

When buying items: optional or redesign of info box, as newbies will check info for each item - thus the need to click each time on \'info\'. Not so good. Better would be to use a permanent info box or an info-ballon on mouse over.

The inaccurate collision detection (box or capsule detection?) is a problem inside houses. Often it\'s very hard to pass through open (i.e. the library) doors or to go down or up the stairs inside houses. I had a case where I was able to go upstairs but not downstairs - was blocked.

The conversation with NPCs is very frustrating:
- accept more phrases: do you have work for me? do you have a job for me? Can I help you? (especially in context with previous text).
- don\'t insult the player because the NPC has no routine for the givin sentence. It\'s no good design to demotivate the player when he is trying to figure out what the NPC is able to understand - especially when the phrases need to be very specifque. Better use polite generic sentences, maybe like \"I have nothing to say about this\", \"I don\'t know\", \"I don\'t comment on this\" ... you surely can come up with much better phrases easily but you get the idea, yes?
- if I come back later and say \'hello\', the NPC are angry because I said this earlier. Makes not much sense.
- please add buttons for very specifque phrases like \"who are you\", \"I would like a quest\" and so on - if they have to be the same anyways makes no sense to force me to type them in every minute I talk to a new NPC. Adding buttons for main phrases wouldn\'t hurt.
- NPC should be able to tell me locations or point me to directions. I tried \"Where are the sewers?\" and other approaches without succes.
- Don\'t use the answer \'No\' for NPC on questions like \"Can I help you?\", \"Do you have a quest for me?\", \"I need a job\" -> \"No.\" ??!! Better would be \"I have nothing for you.\" or \"You seem to be too weak to be able to help me\", \"Everything is fine, I don\'t need any help. Thank you\". Or something like that would be more fun.

Add \'training\' to the context menu - don\'t make much sense to have \'trade\' \'look\' \'gives\' there, but not training. And add a \'tell\'-button, too.

You should add a NPC on the place near the spawn point to kick-off newbies. You are talking about \'Exploring\' all the time, but NPC do not communicate well. Don\'t frustrate newbies. Give them easy access to the game rules, mechanics with some indication where to go/look first. Let the \'Explorer\' mentality start after the pure basics - for advaced beginners or later level. Easy access for newcomers - challenge later.
I.e. you could give experience points for discovering areas where the character has not beend before - to motivate exploration.

Transpenrency in textures seems not work correctly (GeFo 6800 LE).

Add a buttons for predefined phrases: \"Tell me about (...)\" And especially add a button for \"/tell\" ouside the buddylist/grouplist - that works on the selected char.

- slight darkening circle textures under characters as simple shadow will improve the look but is an easy solution  - decals?

-add images to the guide about skills: what is yellow, what is blue, what is green, when does the number increase etc.

- being a magician seems to be hard at startup .... 2000 trias to get a spell (if i am right) ... so looks like first you need to be a little warrior or mining man in order to finance the path of knowledge ... so having a char background in the area of mysteries seems a wast. Intended?

-if some NPCs would wander around, the world would get more alive.

well and the famous rats/other-monster-nearly-dont-have-something aspect. Right now as there is not much more to do than collecting items/money/skills and to explore the maps - more spawn points would make sense. Now 2 or more people camp a rat spawn point and \'share\' the rats. It\'s demotivating - I know you want RPG but these mechanisms aren\'t in place yet.



Well, to finish - i know that this represents already a lot of work. Especially to be still there after several years - hats off! :)
So don\'t get me wrong - I am trying to give constructive fedback - no rants, no whining ...
Just remember the point of view of newcomers in the dev/design process and allow them a smooth tansition into the game. Find something to reward Role-Playing and Exploration.

Greetings and best whishes.

p.s. the board loads not well under my firefox 1.0. Better under IE - but i don\'t use IE.

acraig

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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 05:27:24 am »
Quote
Originally posted by DonGuitar

Stairs:
A good trick to improve movement on stairs is to use additionally invisble planes on them. This way the walk/run movement up-/downwards is smooth - no popping. Collision detection is not accurate anyways and in many situations this looks better.


Ah I would not have thought of that, I will make sure somebody tries that out to see how it looks.

Quote

Fallen from edges or walking on edges:
I think you should add some invisble walls to prevent falling down or to go onto things like small walls and so. People - especially newbies - will easily fall down i.e. by walking on the edges of bridges and so. Usually they don\'t know the controls very well and don\'t know how much they are allowed to fall down without dying. Maybe you add a \'Security\' check for very very low level characters.

Yeah, that is pretty common in many games now.  This is more of a toss up between protecting the player from himself and giving him more freedom.


Quote

The death underworld:
When having died one spawns in the underworld which is not only very dark but also full of possibilities to die through falling again. I did die 10 times or so until I found the way because:
....
To resume: this is really a frustration point. You shouldn\'t do that for newbies if you want them to continue playing the game/alpha/beta. Either change the collision system to \'mesh/triangle\' in certain areas or adopt level design to it.

Yes, I notice that it\'s very dark on my machine as well and I feel of the edge many times myself.  

Quote

In the character creation process the font is small and hard to read on the background. I think this should be improved.

What resolution where you running at?

Quote

GUI Sliders do not always work correctly. In addition to that chat-text sometimes overlap the input field: usually it\'s hard to get the normal layout back.

Yes, that is a know issue so hopefully will get resolved in time.

Quote

When buying items: optional or redesign of info box, as newbies will check info for each item - thus the need to click each time on \'info\'. Not so good. Better would be to use a permanent info box or an info-ballon on mouse over.

Ah, that is a good idea.  

Quote

The inaccurate collision detection (box or capsule detection?) is a problem inside houses. Often it\'s very hard to pass through open (i.e. the library) doors or to go down or up the stairs inside houses. I had a case where I was able to go upstairs but not downstairs - was blocked.

Yeah, the bounding boxes on some of the races makes it hard to move around sometimes.  

Quote

The conversation with NPCs is very frustrating:

Yes, we do log everything the NPC doesn\'t understand so we can make them smarter as time goes on.  We are still working on some better tools to make it easier to update them.

Quote

Transpenrency in textures seems not work correctly (GeFo 6800 LE).

This is more of a engine issue then something we can fix.


Quote

Well, to finish - i know that this represents already a lot of work. Especially to be still there after several years - hats off! :)
So don\'t get me wrong - I am trying to give constructive fedback - no rants, no whining ...
Just remember the point of view of newcomers in the dev/design process and allow them a smooth tansition into the game. Find something to reward Role-Playing and Exploration.


Thanks for the input.  We are always trying to find new ways to add the polish onto the game to make it more appealing.  Just keep in mind that it might be a while before some of these get in place :).  Also make sure you use the bug tracker  (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/bugtracker/index.php).  We have a section there for wishlist items so we can keep a good list of these \'bells\' that we would like to have.
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Efflixi Aduro

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 08:20:44 am »
Wow you really seem to know your stuff. Might wanna consider being a dev ?(
Lol Internet

SeiferRune

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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2005, 11:46:55 am »
Yeah go for dev woo. lol good luck mate with whatever you do.

Zan

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2005, 03:35:43 pm »
Very useful post .. though one thing I personally disagree with.

Your comments on falling from edges, particularly in the underworld. I disagree that it should be made easier or even impossible to fall. First of all .. realism .. if you step over an edge in the real world you will fall. I personally find it odd should I approach a low rise with my char and it refuses to go over it.
As for the underworld, yes it is rather hard to navigate your character out and even I, having died many times :P, sometimes still manage to fall off the edge. However I see this as intentional and actually good. Dying should have a penalty of some sort and I like the way the developers dealt with it here. They teleport you to a realm where it will be hard to get out of.

In fact I hope that in the future they will make death realm a more dynamic place so that even old players can\'t learn how to get out of the death realm, because it will change every time you go there. I understand it will be really hard to randomize the entire area every time you die but perhaps some sort of puzzle could be randomized and would have to be solved over and over again .. anyways now I \'m making wishlist material so I \'ll leave it with this.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Kwip

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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2005, 04:04:04 pm »
Wow, these are some of the best comments I have heard.  Though I have to agree with Zan on the subject of the Death Realm.

I would also like to welcome you back and I sincerly hope that you stay and share any more insights that happen to come to you :)
Lurking in that space between -             \The\____
 trying to see what is off both ends -        -----\Mad\_____
  but the confusion and chaos looks so fun -     ------\Bard\
   that I must now jump down twixt them both and dance the dance

Arkumin Delvrim

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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2005, 05:03:37 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Zan
...
As for the underworld, yes it is rather hard to navigate your character out and even I, having died many times :P, sometimes still manage to fall off the edge. However I see this as intentional and actually good. Dying should have a penalty of some sort and I like the way the developers dealt with it here. They teleport you to a realm where it will be hard to get out of.

...I understand it will be really hard to randomize the entire area every time you die but perhaps some sort of puzzle could be randomized and would have to be solved over and over again .. anyways now I \'m making wishlist material so I \'ll leave it with this.


I think the Death Realm is very hard on new players with little more experience in the game than being \"taught\" how to dual right after they pop on the plaza, or falling down the stairs while exploring Hydlaa or the first ladders into the sewers.  Maybe having them spawn at the top of the ladder before the flames the first time they spawn to the DR, or if they have no Progression Points. Then spawning deeper into the Death Realm each time they die.
I\'m the Dwarf in the shortpants. No the other Dwarf in the shortpants!

DonGuitar

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2005, 05:27:23 pm »
ahh here is the posting now ... luckily I have copied my reply into the clipboard ... otherwise ...
----
Quote

What resolution where you running at?


1024x768 in windowed mode on a 1280x1024 desktop resolution.
But the size is only in a few spots problematic - i think the problem is the contrast of the font color to the background color in some places. Here some demos



The graphics are beautiful but in some places it\'s not so good for readability. Maybe the 2D people can think over this.

Quote

Yes, we do log everything the NPC doesn\'t understand so we can make them smarter as time goes on. We are still working on some better tools to make it easier to update them.


Interesting!
Looong time ago i implemented a simple textual adventure game - the concept was from a c64 magazine but i think i ported it to qbasic on a 286 that time ... ;) I don\'t remember how the system worked but roughly you did some lexicons/dictionaries of subjects, object, fill-words and actions. It was setup in a way that it knew synonyms. Then coding was like if objectNr3 and actionNr5 and subjectNr 40 is inside the sentence, then ...
It also allowed to chain phrases with \"and\". It worked impressively well.

Quote

This is more of a engine issue then something we can fix.

Oh that\'s sad. Transparencies are always a problem but simple ones shouldn\'t be an issue for 3d engines anymore. I read that switching to another engine means like doing everything from groung up? Everthing very tightly connected?

Oh a bugtracker - that\'s not linked to anywhere?! You should a dev section on the mainpage and link to the wiki, doxygen pages and the trackers. Or link to the sourceforge page.

Quote

Your comments on falling from edges, particularly in the underworld. I disagree that it should be made easier or even impossible to fall. First of all .. realism ..

Well I guess you are missing my point. I don\'t mean that one shouldn\'t fall but that the way the level is setup is too hard for a newbie to not be frustrated because a) he doesn\'t see where he can fall, b) collision is not accurate enough for certain area where it seems to be a way but he is pushed off the way. In addition to that I suggested to have some protecting mechanism for newbies. It\'s a game and it should be fun not frustrating. Fun do incude challenges but it should be setup fairly for the player. That\'s what design is about i think :)

Quote

Might wanna consider being a dev

man if I would have time... I berely find time for my own stuff/projects ...
But something that would attract me is doing some NPC scripting ... i browsed through wiki, doxygen docs but there aren\'t much information unfortunally ...
I think if you add more info maybe you can profit not only from comitted longterm devs but also from people that drop by from time to time doing little things ... or?

Merak

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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2005, 10:18:03 am »
Quote
Originally posted by DonGuitar
Well I guess you are missing my point. I don\'t mean that one shouldn\'t fall but that the way the level is setup is too hard for a newbie to not be frustrated because a) he doesn\'t see where he can fall, b) collision is not accurate enough for certain area where it seems to be a way but he is pushed off the way. In addition to that I suggested to have some protecting mechanism for newbies. It\'s a game and it should be fun not frustrating. Fun do incude challenges but it should be setup fairly for the player. That\'s what design is about i think :)


Hi ! I logged for the first time in March 2005, so I think I am a newbie.
The first time I\'ve logged in, I woke up on a huge forum with a tall statue and amost no one around. My first envy was to wander in this town, and after half an hour I started to try to discuss with NPC. Besides \"hello\" and \"who are you ?\", they were not understanding much of what I was saying (perhaps a lack of synonyms dictionary, to understand Greetings, Good morning, and so on...)
After some time, I\'ve found the sewers, the rats and a rogue, so I have done my first Near Death Experience... I\'ve been stabbed to death, I fell on the ground and I couldn\'t move. Then, after several upsetting seconds, the game loaded something, and I\'ve woke up at the bottom of weird stairs, with a gloomy organ playing somewhere. So it must be hell...
I tried to explorate this area, but I\'ve felt several times, and died again. But even for Opheus it should have been difficult.

Some days later, I have read the Manual... :p

This reply is just to say that the fact that I was discovering something new, without someone (or some balloon help) to take my hand was responsible of the interest and the curiosity I felt for Yliakum.
If there have been a invisible wall to prevent falling from cliffs, It would have been less interesting and, as a newbie, I would have difficulties to find where to uncheck this option.

The only interesting option imho for newbies is the one allowing to open a dialog box when someone tries to duel you, or to accept all invitations because it would be very frustrating for a newb to be constantly attacked by upper-level ones...

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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 11:14:10 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Merak
If there have been a invisible wall to prevent falling from cliffs, It would have been less interesting and, as a newbie, I would have difficulties to find where to uncheck this option.

Its not about a wall. Its about making the path a bit wider to prevent dropping of by accident. There is a big difference between PS and the real world some of you tend to ignore:
In the real world I have a wide range of sensors giving me feedback about my surroundings like tactile feedback from my feet telling me:
\'Yo boss, there is nuthin in front of you to step on\'

Since PS (like all computer games) is lacking tactile feedback, has no realistic acustic echo field (which enables some blind people to detect things around them without touching) to hear the abyss in front of you and offers only a very small field of view, the game engine should adapt to this by being a bit more forgiving.
So making a small path a bit wider in terms of the game engine while keeping it visually very, very small would add a lot of playability without spoiling the experience, I think.

The interface has to mediate between a character in a virtual world and its player. And it has to make compromises which should habe corresponding counterparts in the engine.

Bad sensors + clumsy maneuverability <--> forgiving game engine with widened paths.



Regards,
MC
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Zan

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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2005, 02:03:27 pm »
I guess I just never experienced the level of difficulty you have then. The only hard part for me was finding my way out. Were you by any chance playing as a Klyros or Kran character? I know those have a much more robust appearance which gives them trouble navigating some areas and even getting through doors .. unless that has been fixed already. Aside from that I really don\'t see the major problem. Once I found the way out of the Death Realm I could basicaly run to the exit without having to stop .. that is providing you have the right view mode on. Some view modes are harder to move with but they do provide you a better overlook.

I still don\'t see why the paths need to become wider though.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Merak

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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2005, 03:01:08 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Zan
I guess I just never experienced the level of difficulty you have then. [...] Some view modes are harder to move with but they do provide you a better overlook.


Idem. As a Enkiduaki or a Kran, and using Third Person Follow or Subjective views, I never had any problem to walk on narrow paths. And I only use other view temporarily to have a higher viewpoint...

Cobrec

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 03:39:22 pm »
What about making pull down menus for the NPC dialogs?  I know that seems like an oversimlpified solution, however, everyone would know what the NPC understands. Either way I will be glad when the NPC dialog is fixed

keder

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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2005, 06:32:28 pm »
i would be a huge fan of something like:

the more Progression Points you have *spent*, the deeper into the deathrealm you start, and therefore the more difficult it is to get out.

however, there are two spots that if you don\'t hit correctly. you slide sideways instead of going forward. sideways at these points results in falling way way way way down and splattering.

also, this is the realm of the dead... if i fall, i should splatter, pull back together, and have to figure out how to get back up there, not die as i\'m already dead....

just a couple thoughts

--- keder maloy

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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2005, 12:52:44 am »
I have to say, i\'m all for, at the very least, putting some more light in the land o\' death. I\'ve only spent a few minutes actually playing the game so far - most of that was in the death realm, trying to get out, and falling over and over again mostly because there were many places where I couldn\'t see where the ground was.

Personally, I found the entire being-dead experience intensely frustrating, to the point where i stopped playing pretty much as soon as I got out of the deathrealm.