[GUILD] The Dragon Council

[Sedona]

I\'m sorry to see you go Bod, you are a good friend and teammate.

I\'m equally saddened by the idiots who have nothing better to do, than throw insults and spout off about others, whom seem to take great pleasure in HURTING people.
Listen up peeps, this is a game and a community.
The characters are controlled by real people who have feelings.
The old addage about sticks and stones may be true to some, but for the most part, names and insults DO hurt, they mightn\'t break bones, but they cause emotional damage. I\'ve seen this kind of hurt before and you know something? it sickens me.

If you have a problem with someone, talk to them, don\'t throw insults etc, try and talk civilly. If the person doesn\'t want to know, leave it be and let it go. That\'s life, you can\'t expect everyone to be friends.

Some look like their stuck with the same old tune on loopback. It gets boring, fast.

Here\'s something to consider:
I\'ll treat you with respect, so long as you treat me with respect.
You fail to do that, you lose my respect.
You try to force yourserlf on me and my friends? you lose my respect.
You start tossing insults because something isn\'t going your way? Tough, you just lost my respect.

I have seen quite a few things in PS, I\'ve employed a few tricks and learned what is and isn\'t considered fair. I may have done some things that aren\'t considered \"fair\" in the past, but I stopped when I learned otherwise.

Just remember a few things:
I\'m a battlemage, I use magic. Magic is fair to me.
I fight with weapons. Weapons are fair to me.
I fight with my bare claws, that is fair to me.

You fight with whatever you feel is right, but be fair and share. Similarly, if I feel something\'s too crowded, I look elsewhere. (Yes Shal, even when that mercenary was the only one to drop super-weapons, I left it to others when I felt it was overcrowded, though you didn\'t stick around to see that)

I try to do that, and the only time I \"cut someone out\" is after they\'ve proved themselves to be dishonourable, play unfair, force themselves upon me (in whatever way, it doesn\'t matter) or cheat.


I\'m sorry to see Bodacher go, because he\'s a good friend.
I PITY those who drove him out, because they will never be able to understand the preciousness the community of Planeshift offers.

No, I don\'t hate you, that doesn\'t mean I like you, it just means I don\'t know, or want to know you.

Sedona

[harveywallbanger]

you people that keep on insulting others and shaking fingers need to shut up you are the ones that need to quit and leave inthe short time that i knew bod i never new him to be mean or insuling only helpfull he is and always will be a true ps player now there is another name i have to right on kada\'s fireplace along with the others that have decided that enough was enough well they are right  enough is enough  X(

and to you bodacher my dwarf friend i only  wished i could have at least had one more ale with you

people like you shal are the reason i have gone evil
and some day people like you shall pay and you can trust me on that one

Harvey wallbanger
soldier Dark empire

[Danok]

/me sadly shakes his head...

A travesty, this is.  A dark shadow has risen up and cost us yet another honorable player, dedicated Leader, and trusted friend.  Bodacher was not the first, and I fear he will not be the last.

Farewell, good Master.  I grieve at thy absence.  I pray for the righting of all that is wrong in this world ere thee return again.  

I wish thee Joy and Peace in all your future endeavors.

[darkw00t]

I hadn\'t known Bodacher well but even i have seen him in-game and knew he was a good person... and yeh i have seen Shal in-game and he had a big phsyco attack at me for asking if he was zanzibar (which i had figured out just wanted to know for sure)

[ramlambmoo]

I\'m sorry to see you go Bod, you are a good friend and teammate.

I\'m equally saddened by the idiots who have nothing better to do, than throw insults and spout off about others, whom seem to take great pleasure in HURTING people.
Listen up peeps, this is a game and a community.
The characters are controlled by real people who have feelings.
The old addage about sticks and stones may be true to some, but for the most part, names and insults DO hurt, they mightn\'t break bones, but they cause emotional damage. I\'ve seen this kind of hurt before and you know something? it sickens me.  

Im not replying to this one quote in particular, but pretty much to all the Dragon Council Members.  Firstly, stop the whining.  Im not complaining about you saying goodbye, but about you taking the Pity line all of a sudden and making it look like you\'re the victims.  If I knew Bod, I\'d probablly be insulted for him that you\'re trying to use him leaving as a way to further continue the pointless arguement that you\'re having.  It takes TWO sides to argue.  All those people accusing others of insulting, and arguing, and spliting the community- Theres a reason this arguement has been going, what, 60 posts? More?  Nothing stretches out that long without people on the other side making accusations and counter claims back.  Its all good when you\'re dishing it out, but when people retaliate and say stuff back, you pull the victim line?  Not convincing.  If you\'re going to provoke Evil Characters, and keep stirring them up, then this is always how its going to end up.  Though, I mean, its your guild, you can do whatever you want- I really couldnt care which path you take, and its just more fun for us- Its just some advice for your own good.

On a side, and possibly more important note, I think this issue highlights a big problem, and even a fundamental flaw in the game at the moment.  That is, the complete lack of Avaliable \"evil\" activites.  Now before you go and shout \"omfg!!!11 powerleveller!! greifering!!!!! argh!!\", hear me out.  There are always going to be \"evil\" characters.  In fact, Its demanded of most Role Playing games.  There has to be something to battle against.  Planeshift, in its character outlines, included \"evil\" as an alignment, so we can safely assume this game isnt meant to be some stupid Hello-Kitty mmorpg where you run around making friends and having tea parties.  There Is, at least, some sense of struggle against an opposing force, within reasonable limits.  Now the Devs could make this \"evil\" party entirely NPC, so that they can completly control it- But this is a mmorpg for christs sake, the point is social interaction with other people, including those you dont nessecarily like.  NPC opposition is for single player games- we want something dynamic here.  Of course, the flip side is you dont want greifers and things going to far.  However, at the moment the Devs, for whatever reason have tried to enforce this unrealistic \"everybody is good\" type notion.  It seems to vary alot, as I havnt seen any offical notice of it, but It seems that nearly anything that could be considered \"competition against\" or \"opposing\" another player is frowned upon, or even banned.  There is no open PvP combat, and even Challenging people is considered bad.  Competing for resources (spawn sites, etc) is frowned upon, and will even get you teleported or banned depending on the GM.  The Devs simply haven\'t defined the \"proper\" evil role in the game, and so the general consensus has swung towards \"Lets all play nice\", which makes for a pretty damn one dimension environment.  Since the Evil players cant do anything with the game mechanics, we\'ve (well I use \'we\' there, but evil players behavior is far from uniform) have had to resort to other means to be \"evil\", i.e verbal means.  Now this is ok when the people you interact with know the Difference between In Game and Real Life- but when you get people, or should I say.. guilds that Cant tell the difference between a Criticism of their character in Game, and a personal attack on them, It gets nasty.  Then there are grey areas, like the forums, where sometimes people play in character, other times they dont, etc.  This ever present ambiguity means theres no guild lines for evil players- so they just think bugger it and act evil all round.  This must be clarified, and the sooner the better.  Either decalre this a Carebears mmorpg, or provide in game mechanisms and guildlines for what is meant to happen, and notify the GMs accordingly.  Or else brace yourself for alot more of these situations.

[Sangwa]

I agree with Bael. The way things are, speech is the only way we can use to transmit our guild\'s message. At least for evil guilds.

Either we are told how to correctly play evil, or we do it our way. I was labelled as short sighted when I proposed that we should have information about the alignments people can choose in PS.
However it\'s those who ignore this is a multiplayer game that are short sighted. We need rules and clear explanations or else we\'ll be playing blindly here.

It would also be alot better if players helped each other too. Currently OOC and IC are very shaky and some times hard to distinguish (it\'s my opinion that this happens because words are overated in PS). However I think it\'s common sense to appeal to the other player OOCly (Specifying you\'re OOC) whenever misunderstandings occur.
It\'s also common sense to ignore (or understand) people that can\'t communicate OOCly (Or ICly, you never know with them.) These people aren\'t roleplaying, they\'re living their eternal fantasy.

I don\'t know what this has to do with the topic though. And I\'m sorry for that .

*Tries to post something on-topic*

Bodacher was not the first, and I fear he will not be the last.

Indeed.

[Lindrae]

?I don?t know what to say, dear Bodacher...?

?I remember the day, that very first day we met. I wasn?t aware that I had in front of me the most servable dwarfs of Yliakum.?

?I remember this day, I was lost in this huge world, in this city called Hydlaa, and you were here to show me the path, you were the light in this dark and blur place.?

?I remember when you took me out of the city, when you explained me what the different places were, when you show me the best sight view over there at the mountaintop.?

?I remember you helping everybody who was in need; you didn?t care spending your time with me and with all the new ones. Au contraire, you were enjoying it.?
 
?I had always tried to give you back at least a short piece of all you brought to me, but never had you asked for it. Bodacher, you are a gift.?

--Lindrae wipes off the tears dripping from her eyes.--

?Now that I am getting used to Yliakum, I know you were one of these rare kinds of people: the open-handed ones. And, now I know it will be impossible to find someone able to replace even one hundredth of you.?

?I will really miss you??

Lindrae.

[Sedona]

Originally posted by ramlambmoo

I\'m sorry to see you go Bod, you are a good friend and teammate.

I\'m equally saddened by the idiots who have nothing better to do, than throw insults and spout off about others, whom seem to take great pleasure in HURTING people.
Listen up peeps, this is a game and a community.
The characters are controlled by real people who have feelings.
The old addage about sticks and stones may be true to some, but for the most part, names and insults DO hurt, they mightn\'t break bones, but they cause emotional damage. I\'ve seen this kind of hurt before and you know something? it sickens me.  

Im not replying to this one quote in particular, but pretty much to all the Dragon Council Members.

Maybe not, though picking up on a post from someone who hasn\'t posted before kinda cheapens your response, doncha think?
I doubt you\'ve noticed, but I tend to avoid forums and this was the first time I\'ve even bothered to post, not as a whiner post, not just for those of DC, but because I felt it needed saying, it came from my heart.
Its hard to miss a certain minority who spoil things for everyone else, and they are part of the reason for my posting.

Firstly, stop the whining. Im not complaining about you saying goodbye, but about you taking the Pity line all of a sudden and making it look like you\'re the victims.  

Excuse me?
I am saddened to see Bodacher driven out and understand the loss more than some realise, I also see how those who care deeply about him feel. I don\'t pity them or myself, I feel compassion for their loss, but I would never pity them.
I certainly do NOT pity myself or those who know Bodacher, because he\'s enriched our lives, he is and always will be our friend.

I pity those who are too shallow to understand the PS community and treat it or others badly.
I pity THEM because they will never understand, or value friendship the way I do.

If I knew Bod, I\'d probablly be insulted for him that you\'re trying to use him leaving as a way to further continue the pointless arguement that you\'re having.

I seriously hope you realise that you\'re pegging my post at the top of your attempt to slam others effectively works as a direct insult against me, regardless of whether you \"broadened the range\"

Read my post a little more carefully, it mightn\'t be as organised as others, but it gets the feeling and heart of the situation out.
Was it intended to continue an argument?
Absolutely not. It was a one off post from someone who\'s been sitting as a bystander who finally felt pressed to voice their feelings.
I don\'t want the game to descend into sewer level inteligence, because of those few who can\'t get along.

It takes TWO sides to argue.

That\'s obvious.

All those people accusing others of insulting, and arguing, and spliting the community- Theres a reason this arguement has been going, what, 60 posts? More?  Nothing stretches out that long without people on the other side making accusations and counter claims back.  Its all good when you\'re dishing it out, but when people retaliate and say stuff back, you pull the victim line?  Not convincing.  If you\'re going to provoke Evil Characters, and keep stirring them up, then this is always how its going to end up.  Though, I mean, its your guild, you can do whatever you want- I really couldnt care which path you take, and its just more fun for us- Its just some advice for your own good.

You SERIOUSLY need to re-read my original post.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Bodacher
I\'m the bad apple now?  I think that most people you speak to would disagree on that one Shal.  It is people like you that drive the good ones away from this game.  Say goodbye to another....I\'ve had as much of this crap as I can take.

To all my friends, I\'m sorry, I just can\'t take it anymore....Stay away from people like Shal and I\'m sure you\'ll have a good time.

Bye all.

He\'s probably adopting an alt, or was already planning to leave.  Is his skin so thin that a single comment from me convinces you to leave?  I think not.

If he\'s left, he\'ll have no pity from me.  The few times we spoke, he was rude even though I tried to be friendly.  He insulted me and my friends, and then /ignored me so that I couldn\'t respond.

So yes, I consider him one of the bad apples.

[Sangwa]

I\'d like people to have in mind that the PS player community is unilateral, meaning we\'re all on the same side. Please try to understand why others do what they do.
There are always different kinds of people, and most divergencies spawn from this. However there is a reason behind most people\'s behaviour, that we should try to accept. Or at least understand.
Roleplaying is about common sense and acquiescence.

It is our right to give our opinion. Overreacting, however, never helps. If you think you\'re being disrespected or insulted, as a player, first contact the other player and give him your point of view. If it doesn\'t work, then find a GM or Moderator. That\'s one of the reasons they are around; to avoid irrational behaviours from players.

[ramlambmoo]

Maybe not, though picking up on a post from someone who hasn\'t posted before kinda cheapens your response, doncha think?  

No, I used it as an example of the posts that I was replying to- If anything It heightens my response, by letting people see what Im replying to- I cant quote all the responses, because It would be a waste of space and nobody would read it, so I pick one.  As for this being your first post- So?  My post was in response to one particular kind of post, the \"Goodbye\" type- and no one has made more than 1 of them, so you are in the same group as the rest of them.

I doubt you\'ve noticed, but I tend to avoid forums and this was the first time I\'ve even bothered to post, not as a whiner post, not just for those of DC, but because I felt it needed saying, it came from my heart.
Its hard to miss a certain minority who spoil things for everyone else, and they are part of the reason for my posting.  

Well Its easy to dismiss them as a \"Certain minority\" when they make up the majority of the posters on the boards.  Maybe you should speak to your guild members to sort it out,- Its not my problem to fix, thats just the way it is.  Until the guild bothers to do something about them, I have every right to regard them as representatives of their guild.

I am saddened to see Bodacher driven out and understand the loss more than some realise, I also see how those who care deeply about him feel. I don\'t pity them or myself, I feel compassion for their loss, but I would never pity them.
I certainly do NOT pity myself or those who know Bodacher, because he\'s enriched our lives, he is and always will be our friend.  

No, the pity line means to try and get Neutral observers to pity your side of the arguement, mostly by using emotive and subjective Arguements-  \"saddened by the idiots who have nothing better to do\", \"take great pleasure in HURTING people\",. etc..  Unfactual arguements, used to draw empathy from those reading these posts.

I pity those who are too shallow to understand the PS community and treat it or others badly.
I pity THEM because they will never understand, or value friendship the way I do.  

Well touche, I pity those who cant understand the concept of roleplaying, and the seperation of Character and real person.

I seriously hope you realise that you\'re pegging my post at the top of your attempt to slam others effectively works as a direct insult against me, regardless of whether you \"broadened the range\"  

This was quite obviously an attack on those arguing here- If you\'re not arguing, then its pretty clear im not talking about you.  None-theless, I have every right to portray you as a constituent of those advancing the arguement- because you are.  Even though That was your first post, you came in here Clearly supporting one side of the arguement, and continued the arguements that they were making.  The word \"you\'re\" here applies to all those arguing pointlessly on the side of the D.C- which includes you, once you join that discussion.  If you did not want to join the arguement, perhaps you could have make a more factual and strictly \"goodbye\" post, instead of diving in and throwing accusations at people.

Read my post a little more carefully, it mightn\'t be as organised as others, but it gets the feeling and heart of the situation out.  

It gets your opinion out, granted.  I happen to disagree with your opinion.

Was it intended to continue an argument?
Absolutely not. It was a one off post from someone who\'s been sitting as a bystander who finally felt pressed to voice their feelings.  

Did It continue an arguement, regardless of whether it was meant to? Absolutly.  Perhaps next time you should choose your words more carefully, and not accuse and place blame on others, if you dont want to continue an arguement, eh?  \"Bystander\" does not equate to \"neutral\".  You are clearly on one side of the arguement, which you have shown.

I don\'t want the game to descend into sewer level inteligence, because of those few who can\'t get along.  

Ditto- I\'d prefer we didnt get along and keep intelligence at the same time.

That\'s obvious.  

Yes, and?  Its still true.

You SERIOUSLY need to re-read my original post.

Perhaps you would like to post a factual retort instead of advising me to re-read your post, which adds nothing?  Which parts in particular, in reference to my quote which you displayed?

[Eolius]

Farewell my friend Bodacher.
I hope we\'ll see each other again sometimes because, frankly, leaving because of Shal or people like him is not such a good ideea. Au contraire, you should stay for the people that are not like shal and help others make people like him go away. It is sad that it has come to that but it is your decision and i can respect that.

For all others talking about PL... WTF??!? do you even know the definition of PL? Here i\'ll quote it for you:

....refers to a player that is of much greater power assisting a player of much lower power in defeating monsters that are far too powerful for the low level player, but are easily and quickly killed by the more powerful player. Defeating high level challenges rewards the lower level player with experience points more rapidly than normal.

Please tell me when you have seen this happen in PS.
Want to see PL? Join Conquer Online, sit on a rock while being afk, let a guy kill monsters all day for you and in a few hours you are level 40 there while you have been out, for a beer with your friends. That is PL.
And why should you care about somebody being stronger than you? Afraid you might accept his chalenge by mistake? I\'ll tell you from my observations that strong people do not chalenge people. (Except Shal of course).
One more thing... Bodacher was a better RPer than most of us, and i can say that because i know him well.
Anyway, hope to see you again Bod and perhaps if you read these lines, we\'ll meet at a mug of ale in the tavern sometimes and we\'ll talk about it.

[Valbrandr]

I hope we\'ll see each other again sometimes because, frankly, leaving because of Shal or people like him is not such a good ideea. Au contraire, you should stay for the people that are not like shal and help others make people like him go away. It is sad that it has come to that but it is your decision and i can respect that.

I 100% agree with this statement Eolius.  This is why in my second post responding to Bodacher I sound a bit agitated because frankly I am.  People leave that possibly are good members of the Community (I never spoke with Bodacher) and the only thing this does is hurt the entire community overall.  It is a selfish move and one that someone who truly cared would not make, atleast I dont think so.  If you care, stay, if you dont care, leave.


And there are two excepted explainations of Power Leveler:

One is exactly what you say Eolius,

But the other means someone who instead of RPing or enjoying the game in all of its aspects.. they just power themselves.  And this is especially bad when there are only so many monsters.. we are all turned into campers or roamers.. either or.   But even though this is a tech demo, there are other things to do then PL.

[ramlambmoo]

....refers to a player that is of much greater power assisting a player of much lower power in defeating monsters that are far too powerful for the low level player, but are easily and quickly killed by the more powerful player. Defeating high level challenges rewards the lower level player with experience points more rapidly than normal.  

That is, if you define wikipedia as the authority on this. For your information, Planeshift players have defined what Powerlevlling means for them in the game, instead of a static definition that people use for other games.  Anyone who has been around for a reasonable amount of time knows what \"powerlevelling\" means in a Planeshift context.

One more thing... Bodacher was a better RPer than most of us, and i can say that because i know him well.  

Yes, but you dont nessecarily know most of us well, do you.  Just a technical point there...

And why should you care about somebody being stronger than you?

Well said...  why dont those who dont like \"powerlevelling\" and such just not do it then?  Are these people afraid that somebody else might be having fun without *gasp* roleplaying?

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Sangwa
I\'d like people to have in mind that the PS player community is unilateral, meaning we\'re all on the same side. Please try to understand why others do what they do.

Yes.  Problems happen when people can\'t distinguish between RP commentary and RL interaction.  It seems like too many people are taking what happens in-game personally, Bodacher\'s recent move being a prime and unfortunate example.

Bael?s response was very intelligent and well thought out.  It?s too bad that so few people share the sensitive understanding of RP that individuals like Bael, Sangwa, and Agara have developed.

Originally posted by Eolius
 leaving because of Shal or people like him is not such a good ideea.

Sending a character into self-exile for RP reasons is fine.  However, I doubt that it\'s what actually has happened.  At the same time, he did NOT leave because of me.  I haven\'t spoken to Bodacher in weeks.  Weeks and weeks.

He\'s leaving, but it ain\'t cause of me sonny.  Perhaps there really are so many people complaining about the DC -- some with cause, some without.  However, I suspect that something is happening in Bodacher\'s personal life which is taking him away from Planeshift, and he\'s using it as an opportunity to stab at the enemies of his guild and to draw pity from the community.

Originally posted by Eolius
I\'ll tell you from my observations that strong people do not chalenge people. (Except Shal of course).

When I challenge people, there\'s usually a reason -- correcting the rudeness of others and fighting for reasons of honour high among them.  I\'ve wandered the streets in a drunken rage from time to time however, and I\'ve been known to pick fights during such periods.

Originally posted by darkw00t
I hadn\'t known Bodacher well but even i have seen him in-game and knew he was a good person... and yeh i have seen Shal in-game and he had a big phsyco attack at me for asking if he was zanzibar (which i had figured out just wanted to know for sure)

I merely asked why you were confronting me.  It is not often that someone I do not recognize comes and speaks to me in such a familiar manner.    As far as Bodacher goes... I saw what I saw.  I\'m sure he wasn\'t a jerk to everyone, but he always was one to me.

Originally posted by Sedona
Similarly, if I feel something\'s too crowded, I look elsewhere. (Yes Shal, even when that mercenary was the only one to drop super-weapons, I left it to others when I felt it was overcrowded, though you didn\'t stick around to see that)

You?re right.  I never saw you share.