opinion against savage capitalism

[fken]

dont think it\'s anti americanism!

When you are ironic toward american system (capitalism, individualism, ...), you are considered like an anti-american... it\'s good to know. Are you thinking I will become a terrorist?

What will happen if I make fun of Japanese system? or african\'s one? I answer: nothing will happen. But once you speak about american there is a problem...

Monketh, I despise individualism, I despise savage capitalism and more than everything else I despise irresponsible persons.

Microsoft behave exactly like almost every occidentals company behave or want to behave. Shame on this way to think!

But Monketh, just understand I never said US Citizen are bad because of US big company behaviours... US Citizens are the first who suffer this behaviours:
A very huge number of people there are too poor to say
A very huge number of people live scared thinking they could be killed in their own street (thank to movies or news which are really absolutly mad there)
A little number of people concentrate the power in their own hand and keep it at all cost
Racism is amazing there
USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
USA are waging a war every 2 or 3 years.
Once someone say, \"American you are wrong!\", a huge boycott, embargo, and racism begin: childish game.

This is what the great majority of french (maybe european) think about america.

And while the european leaders point at USA saying (implicitely) that USA are an amazing threat, these one start to do exactly the same things here in france (and in europa). There are always more poor people in France, the leaders of big companies behave without responsability and a lot of people lost their job because of their behaviours (France Telecom, Universal (Jean-Marie Messier, a name despised by french today... but dont worry he is still rich and powerful)), Europa created a kind of GPS, called Gallileo, which will allow military prospects. Here in France, dont worry racism exists! especially against Arabian. People feel unsecure everytime (for example my mother who has bought a security key for the house... She live in a good part of the city and in a flat, she was never stolen). Even if African (Ivory Coast) say, let us in peace, french militaries go their and protect the government... (but nobody is sure that the government leader is a good one...)

Monketh I was ironical before but now Im serious, the occidental way of life is insane.

[RussianVodka]

Fken, you should check out the NBP international site (http://www.limonka.net). I don\'t know what\'s your fluent language, so just pick one from the list at the right.

Read the manifesto, read the guestbook, and read a few more of their articles. I am actualy very suportive of what this orgonization is doing.

The headquarters are in Russia, but if you look, you can probably find the branch that is in your country. In fact, there is a branch in Iraq.

The two great things that I like about this party are that 1.) they have a very unique idea on what communism should be, and 2.) they are active.


Where are you from anyways?

[Nada]

What \"a very huge number of people\" in the US think, I don\'t know.
About the unfair distribution of power and wealth, it seems to me that capitalism is not the only system where this happens, far from it. Does true equality exist in any system and, indeed, in the system whose last crumbling bastion lies in China? But I agree that means should be sought to combat this problem which seems to be worsening.

USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
You give them too much credit. You\'ll find that the Romans pretty much set the example by annihilating Carthage in 146BC, or look at Nero and the Christians, the Mongol hordes over-running Russia and so on. While post-independence Americans did commit truly horrendous crimes towards Native American Indians, you can\'t rule out the participation of both the British and the French.

About Vivendi-Universal\'s former CEO, Messier, I think you\'re right and you could have added many others to the list. It\'s not normal to get so much money when you leave an ailing company or one who\'s made massive profits but is still laying off hundreds of workers.

Concerning the Galileo project, it\'s a civil satellite navigation system and can be regarded as a European public service of the future, from what I\'ve heard until now. In contrast the US limits data communicated to GPS\'s civil users and reserves the right to shut them out of the system in case of war.

Here in France, dont worry racism exists!
I guess that\'s not what you wanted to say. Actually that\'s something to worry about.

While there\'s good cause to believe that France\'s intervention in Ivory Coast was some form of post-colonialism, let us not forget that the peace-keeping action was mandated by the UN. As I recall, it was president Gbadbo\'s personal militia who clashed repeatedly with the French troops.

Now, before anyone starts flaming me, let me make this clear: sure, I\'m against rampant capitalism but so am I against any form of extremism or painting totally black pictures when it\'s not warranted, even more so when no real solution is proposed. I think France is a perfect example of the latter. France has the reputation of having a very caring government (some US citizens might describe it as mollycoddling - it is not) but most people agree that there have to be reforms because of factors such as aging population, need for greater equality and so on. However, over the past few years, while various governments on the left or right of the political spectrum have put forward reforms that would have taken the country a step further, they\'ve been forced to backtrack and implement a collection of ill-assorted half-measures. Tomorrow, Sunday 29 May 2005, polls suggest France will likely be voting against the European Constitution although it was initially one of its main proponents: that sums it up.

[Monketh]

Ugh, my response was truthful, and then you find it annoying because it differs with your perspective.  Thus, you write this earful.

Originally posted by myself.
Microsoft\'s market dominance is not directly caused by lifestyles of US citizens. It is rather the opposite way around, a self-continuing cycle: Microsoft\'s market dominance is a direct cause of its\' own market dominance. By making things proprietary, killing other people\'s compatability, and other OS\'s being at times difficult to use, MS remains on top of the heap.

I never was defending or attempting to defend monopolistic practices.  I just said microsoft is on top because uses (or abuses) its\' unique position to stay on top.

Right, I\'ll just break this down then, possibly creating the next big thread politik.

When you are ironic toward american system (capitalism, individualism, ...), you are considered like an anti-american... it\'s good to know. Are you thinking I will become a terrorist?

1.Individualism and capitalism did not originate in America, although they are prominent in America.  I think the word you are looking for is either \"materialism,\" \"commercialism,\" or \"consumerism.\"
2.I am no neo-con.  Don\'t even attempt to insult in such a way.
On side a note, I\'m not exactly sure exactly what you mean by \"ironic,\" I am operating on the assumption you either mean \"satirical\" or \"against.\"  Forgive me if I am wrong in that assumption.

What will happen if I make fun of Japanese system? or african\'s one? I answer: nothing will happen. But once you speak about american there is a problem...

1.Individualism and capitalism did not originate in America, though something apparently gives you the idea that they are inherently American.  They have always been global systems.

Monketh, I despise individualism, I despise savage capitalism and more than everything else I despise irresponsible persons.

Indeed.  Laissez-faire capitalism represents a danger to society.  Regulated capitalism is the most sucessful economic system over the long term, and increases quality of living.  I should like to remove some of the overpaid fools running major corporations as you probably do, they seem to have no idea what they\'re doing.  I won\'t try and boycott said corporations, however, because it would be difficult, would hurt the employees, and probably would not accomplish the removal of the foolish leaders.

Microsoft behave exactly like almost every occidentals company behave or want to behave. Shame on this way to think!

I\'ll reiterate for effect: I was not defending Microsoft.  I ws merely stating why they are where they are.

But Monketh, just understand I never said US Citizen are bad because of US big company behaviours... US Citizens are the first who suffer this behaviours:
A very huge number of people there are too poor to say
A very huge number of people live scared thinking they could be killed in their own street (thank to movies or news which are really absolutly mad there)
A little number of people concentrate the power in their own hand and keep it at all cost
Racism is amazing there
USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
USA are waging a war every 2 or 3 years.
Once someone say, \"American you are wrong!\", a huge boycott, embargo, and racism begin: childish game.

I very much appreciate that you do not blame US citizens for massive corporate dominance.
Have you ever been here, man?  I\'ll address these individually in descending order from after the colon.
You can never be too poor to protest, though I\'ll admit it makes voicing concerns through boycotting or civil action extremely risky.  I suspect they are more focused on survival.

People who are afraid to go out in their own streets at night generally live in poorer areas of cities.  Now, let\'s elaborate off of that: These areas are high in crime for a reason, why?  It isn\'t violence in the media, it\'s poor parenting.  You don\'t let your children be raised by the television if you want them to turn out well.  You don\'t let drugs near your children if you want them to turn out well (drug problems are generally a large factor in these areas).  Sometimes the street life will come and put those two things out of your control.  The gangs exist primarily because of the drugs, which exist because of the drug addicts.  The drug addicts, the men who have umpteen children and do not care for any of them (influenced by a tough-guy image from the street, not the TV), and the wife-beaters set a horrible example for their many children.  It continues in a cycle of never-ending violence.  The insane school drop-out rates in these poorer communities don\'t help.

That happens in all economic and governmental systems.

What gives you that perspective?  I haven\'t seen any mentionable rascism other than the ocassional rascist joke...

I\'ll second Nada, that\'s far from the truth, and it\'s also one heck of a long time ago.  You don\'t see me bothering about the bloodiness of the French revolution, do you?

First off, you should look at what the conflicts are about, and whether we were asked.  I\'m not talking about Iraq here, but as the primary world military power, the first group asked to send troops to stop an invasion or war typically comes to us.

Uh, no.  If you\'re hearing about massive boycotts of nations we don\'t like, it ain\'t happening.  Well, except for the neo-cons, but most americans don\'t particularly care where stuff is made.  Do you have data to support the view of a massive profit loss by anybody short of Iraq or Cuba after they denounced America?  (We buy oil from the people who hate us most...)

I will concede that there is currently rampant nationalism in america, conveniently disguised as its\' cousin, patriotism.

This is what the great majority of french (maybe european) think about america.

Sad, then, that that is what is thought.  Have you guys considered a massive media campaign?  It would work far better than just complaining or mounting protest.

America sets the tone for the world as the economic and military superpower that it is.  If you feel like fixing it instead of yelling at our corrupt business leaders, you are welcome to propose something you think would work that could reasonably happen.


I don\'t want to discuss why communism won\'t work, I\'ve been over it a million times before, and it just doesn\'t on a national scale.

[Foresteer]

*little dance* ->

i agree with you monketh.. (for the first and possibly last time in the collective consciousness of man )

Except that Laissez-faire is bad.. i think it could balance itself out given the chance.. but other then that..

WOOT for America

evil comsumeristic capitolism and industialism has existed long before America was a scant dream.. and will exist long after America and its society has crumbled to dust and gone the way of the egyptians :rolleyes:

EDITL oh yeah i also have stated.. don\'t like us, try to change us \ I welcome european reinforcements on the getting america back on track front.. but not to diss europeans they just sem to talk about how we suck and when asked to help basicaly say \"We wont help you stop sucking because you suck to much\" o.O

(in my personal experience so far.. one of my old family sayings is \"if it dont apply let it fly\" so if you arent like this.. it dont apply.. so just let it fly past you and hit the person who it does apply to)

[Monketh]

Foresteer agrees with me?  Oh my.
Well, if we bring up laissez-faire...  We had laissez-faire, it didn\'t balance.  Back in the late 1800\'s and early 1900\'s, workers were practically disposable, and comparatively, tycoons had more than they do today before anti-trust laws.

I\'m quite serious about a massive media campaign, you know.  It has worked for other things in the past (like reducing smoking).  The best approach would be to appeal to that nationalism, something like \"Make America beautiful again.\"

On another side note: America is currently in a state of slow bureaucratic rot, brought on more by laziness and said consumerism (as I said, americans check the price tag, not the origin label/sticker), and possibly the glorification of laziness and consumerism (ie:\"You too can be RICH overnight!  Just send us money!\" and actors & sports-stars getting paid millions for work undeserving  of it).

[fken]

It would be too hard for me to contradict yourself. If you think there is any kind of honour to answer like you do, especially Monketh, I think it\'s good for you and I wont aswer. I\'ve nothing to get by contradicting you, I will just lost my time by trying to read carefully a text which has nothing to deals with what I said.

So all you said is surely right even if a very majority was absolutly far of what I said. (and believe in me, as Im not native english I must concentrate myself to read and sometimes you are speaking about anything else implicitly trying to contradict what I said... I think Ill think you are not trying to confusing me just to be sure to bore me and win a very useless price...)

Example: You said capitalism isnt born in United States... but, Monketh, do you really think I care about that? And in fact the great majority of what you said wasnt objective especially when you said something which dont deals with what I said (and moreover after quoting me!). So, as I think you are someone intelligent, I will ask you to read what I wrote again and try to rephrase your answer if what you said dealt really with what I meant.

But as you said there is no racism in USA, Im really astonished. Maybe Im wrong but each times someone said something about skin colours in USA... its amazing how its sad! The movies, the news, the history... everything seems to say: in USA, white people and black people arent equal... But if you say the contrary... and as you surely live in USA (is it true?), you will learn me that USA is a superb melting pot with absolutly no racism... a s o.

Please tell me you were joking when you said USA are good cause they buy iraq\'s oil... tell me you were joking... (I never said it was a good joke off course).

\"Ironie\" is a kind of joke. It\'s when you say something which is wrong just to make fun of it. It\'s a way to show you are against it cause what you say is so huge, so incredible that you cannot trust in it.
Example: KKK\'s members are the best friends of black community.

If you say something without sharing the opinion but just want to show how dumb it is you can and if you thing some people could not understand you were laughing you can add: \"je suis ironique l?\"-> \"Im ironic yet!\"

I dont read all your post cause here in France its 3 o clock and read something which astonish me (because its far of what I could expect) at 3 o clock is too boring.

I have seen something about French revolution... All you have to know is that franch revolution was a way to manipulate the people to take the power. It\'s how I felt it and how I keep on feeling it. Im not proud of my country of my history (a history with some holes which allow my mind to think my country is a good one, has done good choices, ...)

Could you say me whats patriotism? I saw this word at the end... its a nice word and as I really think patriotism is nationalism (but nationalism make people think about Nazi so patriotism is better), I think you could show me Im wrong.
But if patriotism is only a way to say you have to protect your country and your government opinion by forgetting to think about the problem, and share your own opinion with the other, please just tell me that and dont keep on replying to this thread cause everything would not be objective...

I hope Im not too rude... It\'s not my wish but your answers are desapointing me... really desappointing me...

----------------------------

But to resume I like the simple way to resume every situation you have.


You, Nada, seems to have a very utopist way to see the political acts. Gallileo is a huger project than GPS... and some GPS satellites belong to military... but off course you think that Europa is very good and just want to create its own public european GPS?... I could think like you and think that europa wont use Gallileo for military purposes but there is a problem: I learnt something else.

You said it was approuved by UN? You said it was good for the ivory coast citizens? Maybe... maybe not... but dont think France has done that freely: there are somethings after war... And France will surely take a great part of the rebuilding of the country. It\'s a market, a business... everything is business! As you are french Ill just give you the example of what the news said about Americans\' war in Iraq: Bush said it was to help them to have a democracy but all they wanted is oil and way to control a new place where to trade... They said that it was a geopolitical purpose too, didnt they? But france is not like that ... (it\'s still ironical)

I dont care about China I dont care about others countries. I said occidental\'s capitalism is the biggest illnes of the world! And thank to russianvodka who spoke about communism and gave a weapon to flame me... (even if I know you were friendly Russianvodka... but in USA or in west Europa speaking about communism is a kind of bad thing: You say you like communism and every people think you like Staline...).

Nada, do you like how the things happened here in France with the polls ? Could you tell me how many people will vote \"no\" to the poll? I will but around me everyone will vote \"yes\". Dont speak about sondages cause sondage its like the TV channel which give it: TF1 news said \"Apr?s ce reportage vous allez savoir pourquoi vous allez voter oui\" or something like that... but how could I be astonished by a channel whose chairman said \"we are sell empty part of human brains to customers like CocaCola\" saying its programs has been done for that... Who is the customers for the survey Nada ? And dont forget to tell me if you felt unsafe during the election campain of Mr. Chirac? Cause strangely TV channels spoke about unsafety in France...
Tomorrow the yes will win! It\'s my mind... even if I wont vote yes...

The american genocide was not like the one you said. And I even dunno if it was considereted as a genocide... you cannot speak about genocid as easily : Rome was a country : America (indian\'s one) and Europa (what Nazis have made) are 2 continents!!! There are no comparaison... But I would like to know more about it. Could you explain? (as your answer is not common I think you are studying history and I like History)

If I am an utopist, I dunno how to call you, Foresteer... Today powerful companies are doing their best to control everything, especially the future customers... Once people will react it will be too late. Today even engineer are recruited in poor countries (China, India, ...). It\'s costless. And some europeans engineers are looking for a new job while they are 45 maybe 50...

Moreover earth is suffering and there will be a lot of disaster in 20 maybe 30 years. Everyone know that but companies are still polluting... let them fly foresster! let them fly !

Finally, tell me what could happened if Bin Laden says \"Im not representing a religion but the suffering of the majority of the earth citizens\"... It\'s strange but the twin towers disaster could be seen very differently if he simply said that... cause in that case the victims would not be the americans anymore and omg terrorism could be seen as a way of freedom! The only way some poor people find to be heard. The only way they fund to keep their dignity...
But off course you will say me Bin Laden dont say anything like that... are you sure you can trust in everything you learnt watching at the news? Especially when a record of Bin Laden seems to have been recorded in Dolby surround?
Then you will tell me there were a lot of victims in the towers and the majority of them was good. Surely. and Im againt that violence. But how did you found heroism of our \"resistants\" during the WW2? In France they are showed as heroes... however they were terrorists before all. They were good terrorists because France win the war with the Russia, the GB and the USA... Everything is a question of point of view and even if Im peaceful and want to keep the peace at all cost, I could understand it (especially when a friend who simply love Africa said to me, coming back from a travel in Senegal, shocked, I saw real poverty: all they try to do there is to survive... I cant understand how they still could smile...). Finally I think the day a man will come to my house to kill me saying my &%$?&%$? race killed all his friends and saying he is fighting for liberty, I wont be surprised...

[Black_rose]

i am against the american government, no i am not a terrorist, i am just a kid with an opinion expressing freedom of speech.


anyways i will go into detail.


we use nuclear powered weapons, like uranium filled missles to destroy enemies, that is terrorism. we entered iraw by bombing a hotel...... do i even have to say it? we swear on the bible in inoguration and not the constitution. the land of the free is against gay marrage, anti black, and has run interment camps.

*edit*
although i am not saying we are the first or the worst to have ever done things, i am saying we are doing horrible things.

[Foresteer]

Well ok maybe i misstated.. i basicaly mean a market with the only government regulations being Minimum Wage, Economic and Work Safety incentives, and a few misc. regulations here and such.. but i thnik we can both agree *gasp* that as much hands off government is needed  as can possibly exist

And yeah we agree.. oh my :-O

I would reply to fkan but even reading it slow my brain just registered \"All Your Base are belong to us\" \"you have no chance to survive make your time\" and \"for great justice take off every zig\" Errors and then shut down even if i understood it my intuitions says replying to it could be a big mistake as well

Also Nationalism
Patriotism
 
also since you stated your not a native speaker you dont know the finer points of the root \"Patriot\" (hell many life long speakers dont) as in Co-patriot or Patron (they are related)

Patriot is just a person who is loyal to a belief or cause and  in this example of nations if a nation touting that cause goes astray will complain and resist greatly..

(patron is a funded or otherwise supporter of a cause.. such as patron of the arts or sciences)

nationalist is just going along with WHATEVER ones NATION does.

I\'ll atribute that part of the rant I did understand and addressed to your lack of english experience and not intention ignorance

EDIT: also it says you are from france.. and from what i can see and from how it sounds patriot and like words come from the french side of american english o.O maybe you ignorance isnt intentional (IOW: you should know the difference between the words unless i have had a gross failure of mental function which is almost impossible)


EDIT II the edit wars: i really cant see how under this exact subject how this can go anywhere productive. So dont mind if I jump ship and let you chaps plumet to the ocean bottom, ya?

[derwoodly]

Hello PSer\'s,

Fken you sure can hit all the hot buttons.  Genocide, Communism, Reilgion, and this one!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, tell me what could happened if Bin Laden says \"Im not representing a religion but the suffering of the majority of the earth citizens\"... It\'s strange but the twin towers disaster could be seen very differently if he simply said that... cause in that case the victims would not be the americans anymore and omg terrorism could be seen as a way of freedom! The only way some poor people find to be heard. The only way they fund to keep their dignity...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa! Sweet Cow pies!

First off Bin Laden did say he was representing the suffering of people that have no voice.  Yes, he attached the Muslim religion to it to give himself more credibility, but he did it to make the action seem more just.  I could do the same thing right now.  Write up a manifisto, and go blow something up with a lot of people in it.  The difference between me and Bin Laden is money, connections, power, and backing, and ethics (probably more than that). What  Bin Laden was missing that made all the difference in the world was a country!  If he was such a hero, how come no country would claim him as there own.  He is a rebel and as such if he commits an act of violence he is a terroist.  It is that simple.   If you think that the key to freedom is having people with power, money, connections, but no national origin, killing people randomly,  then you need to do some serious time at a Library.

[Nada]

I personally don\'t consider myself a utopist but I do try to look at things in a positive light.

I don\'t deny that the Galileo project will certainly have military applications but, first and foremost, it is a civil project, unlike GPS.

Concerning Ivory Coast, I said that the French troops were not helping the government there (which you said they were). Maybe there were ulterior motives to the peace-keeping intervention but I don\'t think it was really about signing contracts to rebuild the country: 1) anti-French sentiment is pretty strong there 2) the French entered the conflict very early on before all-out war broke out, there was not that much to rebuild to make it worth it. The reason behind the intervention, IMO, are 1) as the former colonial power, France (with reason or not) felt it had to do something both to help Ivory Coast and avoid the conflict spreading to neighbouring countries 2) trying not to repeat the Rwanda mistake 3) to protect French citizens who lived in the country and had not left yet.

Polls: I agree that they cannot and should not be trusted completely. Most of the media have been relatively pro-\"yes\". They commission the polls but the polls show the \"no\" to be winning. Now, you might say I\'m a utopist or something but I am not buying into another conspiration theory where they\'d advertise pro-\"no\" polls to make people vote \"yes\".

About people feeling insecure in France and this having been relayed heavily by the media during the last presidential election, that\'s true. But I\'m not prepared to believe there was any governmental interventionist action behind this. First it very much played in favour of the Far-Right. Second, I think that media people have been intelligent enough to notice that preying on people\'s fears worked remarkably well in holding their attention and, to take up a point you mentionned, sell brain space to fizzy-drinks companies.

I\'m not a history student, I only did a quick search on Google and Wikipedia to confirm my doubts. Romans razing Carthage appears to be the first documented occurence of genocide.

Wikipedia:
Genocide has been defined as the deliberate killing of people based on their ethnicity, nationality, race, religion, or (sometimes) politics, as well as other deliberate actions leading to the physical elimination of any of the above categories.

Admittedly similar cruelty has always existed in the form of democide (mass-killing) and gendercide (generally killing males and taking females into slavery).

Outsourcing jobs (\"delocalisation\" in French), and more and more white collar jobs, is truly a problem. However, I\'m against protectionist measures, I\'d rather see Western nations helping developing countries out of their misery so wages become comparable.

Environment is an important issue, true. Though I think your prediction of disater in 20-30years is downright pessimistic. World leaders, and President Bush the first among them, should realise that promoting environment-friendly research and industries won\'t hurt their economies. On the contrary, it can only help growth and create new jobs.

Fken, you say that French \"resistants\" were terrorists. I do not agree. They were fighting an open war, albeit through guerilla-like actions, and their retaliatory actions were against the Nazi military not civilians. Now, the Allies did bomb German cities, killing thousands of innocents, but that was not terrorism that was plain, bloody war.

[edit]
I understand the \"Franco-French\" bickering between fken and I may be boring to some of you, so here\'s a little joke I heard recently:
How does a Frenchman commit suicide?
He shoots himself 15cm above the head, right in his superioty complex.
[/edit]

[fken]

Thanks for the link. I do know its two french word and your dictionary is nice: \"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism]\"

So I must reply quickly.
Do you think there is no market in ivory coast? maybe the term rebuild is bad... to build is better... Never forget that european came in Africa saying it was to help them... I know the official reason and really I know how the things happen in every part of the world: You wanna help protect civilian and keep the peace then you have to convince some people especially Chirac, Rafarin (I like listening to him when he speaks english...) and government... Dont tell me Chirac wanted to make a good action... if he was born in Ivory Coast I would understand... but he isnt... and all he know about Ivory Coast surely comes from books and official business travels.
As I said around me everyone said \"I ll vote yes\"... And I can assure you that the answer only depend on where you are asking that...
What\'s happen when you see that the no will win and when the president say \"There is no other choice but voting yes or we will be lost\"? I ll tell you: the one who didnt want to vote will wake up to vote yes the others wont cause the \"no is already winning\"... It\'s the only goal. I dont think its conspiration but manipulation...

When resistants drop bombs and destructed train station, rails, building, aso ... are you telling it was clean? all the killed people were bad boys? I wont say Im against their acts but it was terrorism...

Bin Laden isnt a hero but if really he said he was trying to represent people who are suffering I think I could understand what he did. He chose to be the ennemy of USA... I think its a courageous man... cause what the majority of the people in the world would have done if they were as rich as him would be to f**k the poor people by closing their eyes and live a nice life... And he chose to have to hide himself... just to try to change the face of the world... I wont say its the devil...
Whats amazing is that the plain crashed into the twin tower... not a nuclear powerplant... not the statue of liberty... he just crush the pentagon (military headquarter) and the twin towers (economical headquarter)... the 2 places which represent our &$$$?%&% occidental world ! off course he could try to do it during the night... but I think he cannot choose everything alone... and nobody would commit any suicide if there were no american death...

Black_rose: you say they are using uranium filled bombs? I thought they used only the dustbin of their nuclear powerplant. But maybe was it only at the beginning and maybe does they use uranium filled now.

Nada, the disasters already began... but chut its a secret ;-) (ironical way to say we said there are already some disasters which appears today and that nobody really noticed it cause the TV set dont tell us it was because of environment pollution).
In the middle of 1990 I learnt the disasters would began \"in 20 years\"... So if Im really pessimistic I would say we have only 10 years...

EDIT : hey... you arent french... you are belgian for sure if you know that kind of joke!  

[Foresteer]

Yup the French revolution or our own Revolution are examples of Patriotism (acting out to better a country you love)

Hitlers Germany is an extreme example of nationalism (just going along with your country because you dont want to be labled \"anti-country\" almost what we have now.. some pople are so \"patriotic\" that they border on nationalistic)

I have no clue what ya\'lls ivory coast thing is about so I\'ll just watch. Bin laden didnt hit anything \"critical\" and he told us why.. he just hit the things that symbolized Americas greed and thinking it can run everything.. If we where at war we would have and have hit monuments that are special to the enemy Except when we do it its call \"Psychological Warfare\" and its ok when they do it its \"Terrorism\" and its wrong

Also vagrently off topic at fken: are the EU constitution elections today or where they yesterday? If yesterday then how did they go?

[derwoodly]

You respond with this???

Originally posted by fken

Bin Laden isnt a hero but if really he said he was trying to represent people who are suffering I think I could understand what he did. He chose to be the ennemy of USA... I think its a courageous man... cause what the majority of the people in the world would have done if they were as rich as him would be to f**k the poor people by closing their eyes and live a nice life... And he chose to have to hide himself... just to try to change the face of the world... I wont say its the devil...
Whats amazing is that the plain crashed into the twin tower... not a nuclear powerplant... not the statue of liberty... he just crush the pentagon (military headquarter) and the twin towers (economical headquarter)... the 2 places which represent our &$$$?%&% occidental world ! off course he could try to do it during the night... but I think he cannot choose everything alone... and nobody would commit any suicide if there were no american death...

If you want to convince me of something then, Post a link or quote a book or something.  That is just nonsensical rambling.  Bin Ladin is not corageous.   Ghandi was courageous,  Martin Luther King was courageous, William Wallace was courageous.

If you want to know what Bin Ladin said, just look it up, don\'t make it up.  Nowere does he say Occindental.  That is your word not his.  Bin Ladin says kill all Americans everywhere.  If you doubt it, look here
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

Since I am an American, I take offense to this, and don\'t think being French gets you off the hook either.

[Foresteer]

Well now bin Laden is couragous.. it takes balls to even think of pissing off America (especialy all those rednecks that where up in arms.. i thought we where gonna have a D-Day in afganistan with bass boats as landing craft and hunting rifles and shot guns )

Also think outside the box.. maybe he didnt quote directly and accidentaly changed or mistated a word as his source may be french and hes trying to translate it? i may be wrong but always err on the side of diplomacy

As for kill all americans he may actualy mean that and he may not.. bush says a lot of things * i at least really hope* he doesnt mean to keep the support of his backers and the kill america movement came from saudi arabi.. where most of bin ladens \"troops\" come from

Im not defending just trying to get you to look at it from another angle (heh i was pissed when they attacked.. they could have at least sent a delegation first, method wrong but motive might not be; thats the point im trying to get you to see)