Author Topic: opinion against savage capitalism  (Read 5409 times)

Black_rose

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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2005, 03:32:02 pm »
well, i go to sites like this for information guys,

http://www.bushflash.com

go their, watch some videos, most brought tears to my eyes and combined with an already steady hatred because he is anti abortion and anti gay (i am a homosexual) i want him to die.








not to mention him using terrorist tactics in the war on terror.
KABLUMMPPP!

Nada

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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2005, 03:53:48 pm »
Quote

Dont tell me Chirac wanted to make a good action...

It is my belief, many people share that view, that President Chirac, and many French politicians, want France to regain some of its initial grandeur on the international scene and there\'s a lot of effort put into foreign diplomacy, mediation, etc. It is about doing what they consider to be good actions for the sake of France\'s reputation and might. In that respect, Mr Chirac does not differ from Mr Bush, he only waits for UN approval beforehand. Also, I would like to reiterate the point about what appears to be the pervasive animosity towards French people in Ivory Coast, I don\'t think it would be conducive to flourishing business deals. There are many other African governments which are way more friendly towards France.

I\'ve not said that guerilla warfare during WW2 was clean and that no innocents were killed. I\'m saying that it was guerilla warfare (terrorists use guerilla warfare but not all guerilla warfare is terrorism) during an openly-declared war.
I think a good definition for terrorism is \"the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion\" (Merriam-Webster\'s). Wikipedia has a lengthier one with several definitions which would please both of us but the neutrality of the article is being disputed so I\'m not using it.

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Nada, the disasters already began...

And would you enlighten me as to what these are?
One thing which should be made clear is that as the oil industry has its lobbyists so do hard-core environmentalists and they do come on TV. I\'m very concerned about the environment and truly believe that a lot of damage has already been done but I don\'t buy claims of cataclysms in a couple of decades.

@Black_rose: this is very sad indeed but I think that what\'s even more saddening is the fact that a (greater) majority of people re-elected President Bush.

Side note 1: I\'m French, thank you very much. However, I must admit that I\'ve spent the greater part of my life outside France. The person I heard the joke from was French.

Side note 2:
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Rafarin [French Prime Minister] (I like listening to him when he speaks english...)

One time I heard the French Defense Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, speaking in English at a US University: that was a very brave thing to do.


[edit]
Fken, have you always been pro-\"bin Laden\"? Or have Mr Bush and his war on Iraq changed your mind? As I recall, the vast majority of French people were horrified by the 9/11 attacks and thought it was right to go hunt him in Afghanistan.
[/edit]
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 04:12:04 pm by Nada »
\"Thoughts, like fleas, jump from man to man, but they don\'t bite everybody.\" - Stanislaw Lec

Foresteer

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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2005, 04:38:22 pm »
Hey Black_Rose thats like what its like in my mind only in a web page :D Bush Always uses such Fuzzy Math :rolleyes: :P

Also i too wish to see France regain its political say and have a vested interest it it regain a worldwide say. Then perhaps the critques from France of our absolutly craptastic government would carry more weight in america and worldwide leading to change

pehaps i am going about this the wrong way? Ive been asking europeans to help with america but maybe I need to help the europeans first so they have the say and tools to actualy help (which they seem to want to do.. and even one person who is motivated can move politcal barriers.. bush is one man look at what hes done.. i too am one man.. why cant i do the same just in reverse?)

So are there any sites on political movements in france that would lead to the end of france having greater say? (winks and nods at french members.. if nothing else i can help by raising awareness.. i point at the greenpeace cyberactivism campain.. one person behind a keyboard with a lot of time *like me* can get a lot of word out really fast :D )

Also if its not to much whats the ivory coast thing about? link/explanation please?
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fken

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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2005, 05:42:04 pm »
pro bin laden ?

wow... if I were pro bin laden I would be ok with all of what he did and Im against any violence so pro bin laden... it\'s a little (irony :D) exagereted... (oh and did I forget to tell I like and want peace? do you think \"wanting peace\" and being \"pro bin laden\" are compatible ?)
But in fact I dont believe in devil (Im sorry). And I think nobody arrive in this world with the wish to kill everybody and create disasters... I think there are explanation for everything and I think Bin Laden behaviours dont appear thank to a spellcraft. He is a human being and surely think he is right like you think you are right by saying terrorism is bad.

No off course Im against terrorism but I think I could understand some people who are ready to fight for their freedom... dont you? For me in this conflict, the first terrorism attacks was occidental ones: it was colonies, it was how people manipulated poor people, it was how american industry sold GMO to Africa to be sure the plants wont grow up the next years and be sure they could exploited them once again... (oh dont worry european would do the same things if only they had the patent of these %&$&&% GMO... but they havent so they can criticize...). I think I could understand people start to lost their nerves when they see their cildren trying to find insects on the sand to survive while big occidental industries are burning their dinner product because they cannot find any customers... I think a lot of people think we are going to far: We are $&%?%$ childish butcher. And once they said we dont want to keep on living like that  occidentals answers \"we dont care about your mind\" once someone try to make a revolution some place becomes human slaughterhouses.

You spoke about Ghandi? nice example cause today Im wondering how the things would happen if children in China would sit down in the street and say : \"we wont keep on working!\"... First Occidental would call the chinese companies and say... We have a problem its a big economical disaster we are losting customers so do everything you want to do but next week everything should be finished. And dont worry everything would be finished the next week.
I really think today if there were another Ghandi he would be killed... by accident...

Do you really think about poor people life? Would you invite someone who has no house to sleep in your flat because you are scared of how cold it is outside during the winter? Would you go to Africa or latin america to help Mother Theresa? So please dont tell me you are not participating to the exploitation! just by closing your eyes. OMG in Palestine people become frequently human bombs !!! What the meaning of this act??? -> they think their life dont cost as much as their freedom... It the same thing which happened during 9/11 : a lot of terrorists thought they could die and it was a great thing in their mind. No dont tell me we aren responsible! Now the disaster has begun cause USA and EU wont say they are responsible: it could be interpreted as weakness... and the atmosphere will be more and more violent.

Off course Im not ok with what Bin Laden did but off course I respect him. Because he chose to have a sad life, I dont think he would apear in St Tropez and play tennis and swim in swimming pool. I dont think he is happy today. I think he think frequently he has done the bad choice and that it would be really nice to have another life...
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers... not as a man who chose terrorism to express his desire of freedom...

I think he dont use the good way: I think there are too many innocent who are killed and I think it\'s too hard for us to change anything in our countries... but after all: are we really living in a democracy? If it\'s a true democracy we must say we are against suffering in the world and try to answer to the terrorism by using fair trade. Dont think they will win (its a bad way to think indeed) but think that its the better way to behave if you wanna kill the terrorism. No poor suffering people -> no terrorism.

Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly. A lot of scientist are saying : \"even if we stop everything the earth is already damaged and it would already be too late to save it\"... Off course Im not sharing this opinion because I think its not logical (i think that one or 2 centuries should be needed but it\'s reversible... why wouldnt it be reversible?). The date of december 26th is in French memory. We have water issues and dont forget people need to drop water on the nuclear powerplants to prevent a nuclear disaster last year or the year before (I dont remember)... off course there was another weather problems before but the nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!

Foresteer: The elections is today... I think the yes will win... Ill tell you if you want...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 05:49:28 pm by fken »

Foresteer

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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2005, 06:15:03 pm »
that would be nice :) even in france votes yes it looks like holland is voting no so

and wow i think i have found a person more synical the I 8o as for the enviroment if we stop now we\'ll be a lot less screwed then if we stop years from now.

and to answer your pessimism *not and insult it may sound like it.. pessimism itsnt and attitude or character just a phase of though* Well used to have One King who had all the money and gave it to people as he saw fit.. Now there are a couple hundred CEO \"kings\" at least in 400 years we\'ve managed to spread the wealth a little :P

http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/

there are people trying and giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for a cause not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in an apathetic state like everybody else and just quit leaving them all alone to carry OUR loads and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*

So stay the course!

As for \"We are all screwed anyway\" if i may expound a little if we stop now we can still remain a viable genetic strain and even in our lifetimes *allbeit the ABSOLUTE end of them if we live to be 100* we could still repair what has been done, or we will drown ourselves by driving our humvees to make up for us being so unoriginal and bland that thats what we need to no feel like the losers we are..

Anyway :rolleyes:

EDIT: oh my french lesson thingies arrived today :D :D :D and i havent felt so stupid since i was five XD at least i five i could say words right :P (learn this stuff young kids)

But i can utter once sentence after one day and know what im saying :) Its a start, Rome wasnt built in a day you know 8)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 06:18:09 pm by Foresteer »
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Nada

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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2005, 07:21:41 pm »
@fken:

Quote
they think their life dont cost as much as their freedom...

That might be the case but there\'s also a lot of indoctrination too, very reminiscent of the Hashshashin  (have a look, it\'s a very interesting read). It\'s especially difficult not to draw the parallel when some of them wear three pairs of underwear when they blown themselves up, ready for paradise where virgin maidens await to cater to their will.
Quote
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers...

Well that\'s what he says he is and wants to do...
Quote
Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly.

You don\'t need to take the following question seriously but I\'d wish to know nonetheless. Which islands?
Desertification, especially if you\'re referring to the Sahara, has been an on-going natural process for quite some time and has been taking place as far as memory of men can remember. Desertification can often be traced to poor farming practices and over-grazing, in the US for instance.
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The date of december 26th is in French memory.

To those of you reading this who were not in France at the time :) : that was the day the \"storm of the century\" swept across France and caused severe disruptions, more notably widespread power cuts and thousands of fallen trees. [edit]happened in 1999[/edit]
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nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!

Indeed, fissile nuclear plants are dangerous. This is why the European Union and other countries wish to investigate the feasibility of using nuclear fusion  to produce energy.


@Foresteer:

Want France to have a greater say, eh?
For my part I find that France cannot do it on its own, the only way is a stronger European Union.
I don\'t know any French-idea-of-what-the-world-shoud-be lobby groups. There\'s always the Ministry of Foreign Affairs but I don\'t think that\'s what you\'re looking for.
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Also if its not to much whats the ivory coast thing about? link/explanation please?

From what I understand, fken finds that France is going down the drain, i.e becoming like the US, and I assume he mentionned Ivory Coast to draw a parallel with America\'s interventionist policies in Iraq: the ulterior motive being making money over the local people\'s back by signing contracts to rebuild after the armed-conflicts have ended.

What France\'s behaviour towards its former colonies should be has been a very touchy topic especially last year (these past few months it\'s more about the European Constitution referendum). France has generally maintained strong and friendly diplomatic ties with these countries (although some have undemocratically-elected leaders) and has a few military bases here and there. Tensions, which had been brewing for quite some time, between the Ivory Coast government and rebels (often unpaid soldiers) escalated and France moved in (do note that ~20000 French nationals lived in Ivory Coast). French troops apparently shot at the crowd at a given time and killed some of them.

This Google link ought to give you the picture, I find the first page of search results to give an account of things from various points of view.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=france+ivory+coast

With all this talk about France we\'re getting a wee bit out of topic, no? Must be my fault, though.

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know what im saying

That\'s the spirit! Keep it up!  :D
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 07:47:02 pm by Nada »
\"Thoughts, like fleas, jump from man to man, but they don\'t bite everybody.\" - Stanislaw Lec

fken

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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2005, 07:22:57 pm »
foresteer... I cant really understand what you meant ... I dont get it... could you rephrase it with more simpe expressions?

Foresteer

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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2005, 07:49:36 pm »
Sure thing.. pardon me i speak in complex english much of the time :(

I think i have found a person more Cynical then i am

To answer you and maybe make you feel better *We all used to have one ruler who had all the power and ruled however he wanted. Now there are a couple hundred Corporate kings who do as they please at least in 400 years we\'ve managed to spread the wealth a little :P

http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/

there are people giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for to help others and  not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in a state of Apathy like everybody else and just quit, leaving them all alone to carry OUR burden to help and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*

AS for what you said about how things are getting worse if   i may comment a little if we stop using oil and concentrate on better things to help the planet now we can still be able to live and survive and also be in tune with nature and maybe fix the eviroment even in our lifetimes *allthough it would end of  our livesif we make it 100 years old*.

Anyway

EDIT: oh my french lessons i ordered came today and i havent felt so stupid since i was five XD at least when i was  five i could say words right (learn this stuff young kids.. i have much trouble pronouncing french correctly)

But I can speak one sentence after one day and know what im saying. Its a start, Rome wasnt built in a day you know

How was that :) ? I made it easier hope it helps!

EDIT: bummer about there not being any such groups :( france worked fine without the EU in the past and should be able to without it now.. i think the EU consolidatiting power could be a very bad thing. It was ok when they just worked together economicaly but if they just become one garbled stew of nations then each nation blends into itself and that is sad ;(
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 08:00:12 pm by Foresteer »
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fken

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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2005, 08:33:36 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Nada
That might be the case but there\'s also a lot of indoctrination too, very reminiscent of the Hashshashin  (have a look, it\'s a very interesting read). It\'s especially difficult not to draw the parallel when some of them wear three pairs of underwear when they blown themselves up, ready for paradise where virgin maidens await to cater to their will.

so... are you thinking like me? I didnt get if you though like me cause when I read this I think you try to contradict me (\"That might be the case but\"). And sorry but if they turn into human bombs its because they think their life cost less than their idea... of course there are indoctrination! Even for french or red revolution even for scessession\'s war even for WW1 and WW2 even for Vietnam even for iraq war... there is always indoctrination. But it\'s still more important when it\'s in a place where poverty lives.

Quote
Originally posted by Nada
Quote
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers...

Well that\'s what he says he is and wants to do...

Ow! do you listen to what he said ? do you understand arabian or has he spoken in french? in english? are you sure the records was an original? Who translated it? Are you sure you can trust in him? be sure that the one who made the translation arent his friends: they are his ennemies... logically you cant believe in them... but I understand there is a problem cause it means we cannot judge Bin Laden as long as we cant speak arabian... So I will maybe never judge him.

Quote
Originally posted by Nada
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Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly.

You don\'t need to take the following question seriously but I\'d wish to know nonetheless. Which islands?

I dont really remember but its in Oceania because I remember the unhabitant of the island I saw during the news were trying to become Australian citizens (and off course Australia was refusing...)

Quote
Originally posted by Nada
Desertification, especially if you\'re referring to the Sahara, has been an on-going natural process for quite some time and has been taking place as far as memory of men can remember. Desertification can often be traced to poor farming practices and over-grazing, in the US for instance.

you speak about a natural process??? OMG that was what people said at the beginning of the 1980. In 1990 they said they dont really know if it was really a natural process...
In 2000 there is no more question: even Hubert Reeves said that (I was invited to one of its meeting). We know today that humanity is amazingly increasing the process... Are you really loving environment? cause its not hard to learn that today...

Quote
nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!

Indeed, fissile nuclear plants are dangerous. This is why the European Union and other countries wish to investigate the feasibility of using nuclear fusion  to produce energy.
if you want to create a fusion reaction you have to create a fission reaction first (-> it\'s still dangerous... it\'s less dangerous but it\'s still dangerous...)
-------------------------------------------------------
last news :
CSA said 20% of non votant (source France Television)
SOFRES said 27% of non votant (source: TF1)
it\'s not official! it\'s polls

but off course it\'s exactly what i said : the news has done their best to scared people and tried to manipulate french to be sure the one who think yes but arent sure will vote. For me its manipulation and its dangerous...

fken

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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2005, 09:26:22 pm »
Quote
http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/

there are people giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for to help others and  not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in a state of Apathy like everybody else and just quit, leaving them all alone to carry OUR burden to help and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*


There is no greenpeace groups in my town but it\'s not a problem in fact cause I will help them once Ill finish my studies. I would like to have a humanitarian job

Quote

EDIT: bummer about there not being any such groups :( france worked fine without the EU in the past and should be able to without it now.. i think the EU consolidatiting power could be a very bad thing. It was ok when they just worked together economicaly but if they just become one garbled stew of nations then each nation blends into itself and that is sad ;(

I always felt like european citizen before... but now Im disapointed... Im against what they did with the patents but not only

55% of no (Dell/IPSOS)
45% of yes
29% of non votant

France refuses the constitution
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 10:21:27 pm by fken »

Nada

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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2005, 10:46:35 pm »
A sad day for Europe it is.
I haven\'t got the heart to tackle the pending issues in our debate tonight.
\"Thoughts, like fleas, jump from man to man, but they don\'t bite everybody.\" - Stanislaw Lec

fken

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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2005, 10:54:45 pm »
As you surely already know I vote \"no\" and I dont think it was bad... only one person, a woman of 27 years old, said me good arguments to vote yes. Every others seems to vote yes because there \"would be no alternative\" because it would be \"going back\" because it would be a \"farewell to europa\".

Really its no arguments
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 11:16:54 pm by fken »

Foresteer

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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2005, 11:08:34 pm »
Well i feel like a world citizen but the moment several cultures come under one ruling body the cultures meld and lose themselves.

also woot for france and the soverienty of nations :D

Also Nada why is it sad?
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fken

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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2005, 12:32:10 am »
57% of the Spanish were non votant
and even if its 72% who said yes it was 72% of 43%
so almost 31% said yes and if you think about it it means that less than 1/3 of the spain citizens was ok with it...
Germany government didnt ask to its people because its leader is very criticized and I think the Germans would vote like French (especially because they already know what opening a frontier means - east germany, crisis and unemployment).
In fact, I dont think people like the liberalism (is it the good word?) and savage capitalism...

final results :
55,1% of no
44,9% of yes
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 12:53:59 am by fken »

Foresteer

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« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2005, 07:32:46 am »
http://www.Dictionary.com said this about Liberalism

I think it may be the right word? (also a small english lesson to help you learn :) ... you would say \"Is this the right word?\" good is used like so: \"I am feeling good\" as in happy or pleasureable or \"This is a good day\"; Good generaly means pleasant or enjoyable; Right generaly means correct or \"not wrong\" ;) )

Though Liberalism generaly means \"anti-capitalism\" for as much personal freedom as possible (sometimes hurting a nations economy). It can also mean scrict following of Free Market capitalism so its a coin toss on that one

But i could be wrong. Just give me the simple meaning and I can give you the word you are after :D
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 07:34:26 am by Foresteer »
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