opinion against savage capitalism

[fken]

I swear you my historian teachers told me the WW2 was about to be won. The Japanese were about to surrender when the bomb was dropped. Personnaly I feel thats strange to send the nuclear bomb at the end of the war. because if it was a way to save 80000 boys (80000 is a nice number. Is this number what you learnt at school? I yes, then if think you could wondering how people can teach so unprecize numbers). I remember what Truman said too because I listen to his declarations (broadcasted again) at the tv... I didnt need to listen to my historian teacher to feel he was hiding something. When you listn to him you feel he was lying! Once the two bombs were dropped Einstein was wondering what he has done by showing his results to the Americans. He was for the peace and didnt like the idea of participating in the construction of the Bomb A.

Nice to see that USA had nothing to win in Vietnam\'s war. I know I learnt something different but I dont exactly remember... it was geopolitical and I dont remember sorry

Why do you wanna live in Beverley Hills? It\'s a strange idea for me... Even if I know Ill earn a lot of money I wont live in a place like that personnaly...

Its strange that you invite me to visit LA cause I will visit a friend in Salt Lake. I know its a little far but I think ill accept your invitation Efflixi.

[buddha]

Both the Vietnam war and the Korean war were economically motivated.  The U.S. had plenty of business interests in south east Asia that we wanted to protect.

Also, yes, WWII was about to end when we dropped the two bombs.  It could have ended without the bombing.

I, personally, despise what Bush is doing to our country, and I can understand why other nation might despise us, though I think it is the wrong path.

Let me back up E.A. here.  In Los Angeles, you can pretty much look and talk any way you want.  There is not a lot of racism, though it exists.  For a short time after the Twin Towers, there was some anti-muslim sentiment, but most of that is gone now.  I live in a very diverse section of Los Angeles.  My local grocery store is owned by a guy from India who loves the Houston Rockets, I have to speak Spanish to order food from my favorite local restaurant, the Thai restaurant requires pointing at them menu and my abosolute favorite watering hole is turning into a gay, actually lesbian, bar.

This is the sort of thing people in L.A. have come to expect.  Around here, there is a lot of tolerance.  However, if you drive just 30 minutes north to a place called Santa Clarita, it all changes.  So E.A., we are sadly not the norm for the U.S.  Try saying you voted for John Kerry in Thousand Oaks, or speak some spanish in Santa Barbara, you\'ll find a very different attitude.

This is probably the same story for all major metropolitan areas, except with slightly different ethnic mixes.  It\'s the countryside where you find the closed-minded people that the rest of the world fears.  But of course, when someone from France thinks of the U.S., they think of New York, New York, not Three Rivers, California.  New York is a place where the majority of the population is in tune with the concerns of the Europeans and the rest of the world, whereas Three Rivers, CA is mostly backwater hillbillies who can barely read their large print bibles.

By the way, I drove through Beverly Hills this morning, as I do every morning.  To be honest, the place is boring.  The buildings are mostly new and everything is too clean.  It has no character.  Sure, it\'s a great tourist spot, but if you come to L.A. there are much better places to visit.

[Nada]

Originally posted by fken
Im known as a man who dont believe in humanity.

That\'s sad. I find humanity to be one of the few things worth believing in.

Originally posted by fken
Do you realize each time I was right and demonstrate it the one I contradict never agreed?
...
Here I felt aggressed like if people wanted to be right absolutly.

As I see it, you believe yourself to be the self-righteous keeper of the greater  truth.

Originally posted by fken
You joked with French history (I used wikipedia personaly :-D but Im sure an american will know MY country\'s history better than me... off course I knew you were joking)
( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robespierre ) learn french or ask to a friend ;-)

After much cross-referencing through various online resources (including Wikipedia):
Robespierre\'s father, a lawyer, belonged to the \"noblesse de robe\" (nobility conferred because you are of a certain profession) and his mother was a brewer\'s daughter. She died when he was 6. Distressed by his wife\'s death, Robespierre\'s father wandered through Europe for 2 years before dying too. Robespierre was taken in by his maternal grandfather. He found solace in his studies and received a scholarship to study at the \"college Louis-le-Grand\" in Paris were he was one of the poorest and brightest student. (His two sisters were schooled in an establishment for girls living in poverty). After secondary school, he had to work while attending law school.

[fken]

Louis Legrand isnt a normal highschool... and in the 18th century there was no real poor there... Will you tell me poor people get their baccalaureat? He was certainly poor in comparaison to the other pupils of Louis Le grand but not really poor... What are you saying? there was equality? Even today there is no equality!

I was sure you would say exactly what you just said. I dont know you but with you I fell like a foreteller. But it\'s not because you arent intelligent. I think you are intelligent but the problem is that you seems to be blind. Each time I will defend anything important to me Im sure I will find you on my way (off course Im refering to the post about the laptops where you said very objective things and off course this thread shows me what you are able to do).

Nada dont speak to me about objectivity : Bhudda or Black rose are more objective than you but I dont want to fall in the opposite side. If you want to prove me something be logical and prove it like a good demonstrator! Even EA is more objective than you. But I can understand why Americans could not be objective here: the subject is the american history. In France the french history is nice with Frenches. For example, Napoleon is a great emperor. But in fact Napoleon was a butcher! We learnt French revolution was the symbol of the Freedom. But in reality the poor stayed poor. The noble became famous officers in the army. and finally the rich stay rich. The priviledges were implicit. During the WW2 we dont speak really about the french crimes. We dont say Petain was already a famous extremist. You know what I learnt at school? Everyone were happy to see Petain in the french government. Off course we know it is a mistake. And I simply learnt that french were stupid in 1940. It really amuse me to read that. The population was stupid. Especially when you know that there were an order for german food ratio:
Germany first (off course)
France then
the others countries
In Poland, their food ratio were incredibly low...
So if I use my brain Im able to tell you that Frenches were happy to see a pact with Germany just because of their individualism.
But what school learnt to us isnt true. The real historian know that. In History in my last year of highschool my teacher said me: \"I will speak a little about Communism because even if it s no more in the national education program, it\'s important\". Off course he hasnt enough of time and he didnt speak a lot about communism. Just wonder why, Nada!
But if I can understand the non objectivity of the americans I cannot understand yours.

I know when Im true but I never said I didnt analize what people said. However, I wont believe each person who says something. Because each person says a specific thing. And a lot of data are contradicting the previous. Look Taurenthefirst who contradict Black rose and Buddha who contradicts Efflixi Aduro.

What\'s amazing with you, Nada, is that you dont contradict the others, just me. Are they everytime right? Am I everytime wrong? For example, can you quote an example about school shooting in France? Now Im really listening to you Nada! Your silence is a shame!

[Nada]

Originally posted by fken
Louis Legrand isnt a normal highschool... and in the 18th century there was no real poor there... Will you tell me poor people get their baccalaureat? He was certainly poor in comparaison to the other pupils of Louis Le grand but not really poor... What are you saying? there was equality? Even today there is no equality!

I don\'t know how far down the social ladder people have to be for you to have some consideration for them. Anyway, that was not what I set to do about Robespierre. All the resources I\'ve found which mentionned his childhood and adolescence said  that he was poor or that he was reduced to poverty.

Originally posted by fken
But what school learnt to us isnt true. The real historian know that.

Then you\'ll be happy to learn that I have no experience in the French schooling system as far as primary school and highschool are concerned.

Originally posted by fken
Your silence is a shame!

I should feel ashamed, should I?
Mwahahahaha... fken have you not understood that I am your nemesis, come on Earth with the sole purpose of making you rue the day you were born?... mwahahahaha

More seriously, fken I\'ve got nothing personal against you.
Now, I pondered if I should really answer you or if it was spam-baiting on your part. A PM would have done just fine. But hey, I\'ll drop (some) of my usual self-restraint and jump in.

Why do I contradict you personally? First, because you are the one who started the thread and the one who seems to be the most extreme in the opinions he defends. Second, because you already contradict the other posters, I don\'t feel it\'s necessary for me to do so + often I find there is some truth in what they say. Please do notice too that I\'ve tried to stay clear of the America business and I\'m tackling other issues. There have been instances where I found you were (partially in some cases) right: CEO retirement benefits for instance, or outsourcing or French TV selling brain space to fizzy-drinks companies or what happened to French women who had a relationship with a German during WW2, and I found your PM on nuclear fusion very interesting.

Originally posted by fken
Are they everytime right? Am I everytime wrong? For example, can you quote an example about school shooting in France? Now Im really listening to you Nada!

I don\'t know of any \"school shootings\" in France. You\'ll recall what Foresteer wrote:

Originally posted by Foresteer
There are european school shootings too.. In fact even with all that \"gun control\" europe has more gun crime then we do (sources Wall Street Journal AND Deutch Welle *see American AND German newspapaers agree*)

You see that Foresteer mentionned Europe. Also, I haven\'t got the stats besides me so I don\'t feel I have to butt in and, as far as I\'m concerned, Deutsch Welle is a reliable source.  

I have contradicted you when I thought you
a) generalized too much,
b) had your facts wrong
Otherwise I expressed my opinion. Do note that I take care to sprinkle around expressions such as \"it is my belief\", \"in my opinion\", \"I think\". I\'m sorry if you felt I forced my opinion upon you.

Now, I admire the fact that you feel concerned for the environment and that you are determined to let the voiceless have their say. These are lofty ideals indeed.
However, I guess that I will remain at loggerheads with you as to the causes and means to solve certain problems given that I consider myself a moderate.

So let us at least agree to disagree, shall we? No hard feelings.

[Monketh]

1.) I never said that Iraq should feel thankful for America buying its\' oil.  What I said was: You would think if Americans liked boycotting so much, we would boycott those that hate us (ie: Saudi Arabian populace).
2.) I\'m outta here, this is getting bloody ridiculous.

[fken]

Originally posted by Monketh
2.) I\'m outta here, this is getting bloody ridiculous.

you\'re right. I think the same thing. if someone want to continue no problem but Im oughta here too.

[Valbrandr]

I have been waiting for a good topic to come up so that i could rant and rave.  

For one I would like to ask what particular event happened that made you so angrey fken?

I am an American and I love what America stood for.  America was a place that stood for Freedom (Yes we had slavery and we still supressed woman but it was a good foundation) and Individualism.  Dont get me wrong, I am not much for individualism myself.  In truth I am more of a Socialist and I hate capitalism.  Capitalism fuels Globalization/ Americanization.  And Globalization destroys culture, exploits workers, and puts those mom and pop businesses out of Business and that is not mentioning how it hurts the environment.  

There are plenty of problems, and I am not sure how to stop it.  What can we do about these injustices???  That is the question.  Really, I am not sure if these countries can stop the exploitation until they progress.  Even after the USA is no longer the only super power... someone else will exploit.  Its the basic Lexus and the Olive Tree arguement.    I feel that we have to fight for the Olive Tree even though it may be futile.  

And yes, Americans are extremely afraid of terrorism right now.  The masses are afraid enough to hand over their civil liberties that we fought so hard to get long ago.  In alot of ways, America scares me.  I am not sure how far this will go.  Pretty soon I may be moving to Europe .  We are dangerous.  We can wage war on nearly anyone and no one stands up to us to try and stop us.  The stupidity of it is that we are only making it worse for ourselves.  For being in Iraq, terrorism will grow.  We fight to destroy it but it cannot be destroyed until the injustices that we discussed earlier are addressed.  These people are doing what they feel they must.  Now, I would not call the War in Iraq a genocide by any means however.  The US is overstepping its boundaries and we will pay for it.  

But no one can play inocent here.  It is all of our faults.  The Global North takes advantage of the Global South.  And world powers have always exploited who they could:  France, Britain, Germany, Russia, and the United States  have all made huge mistakes.  But it is not a time to dwell on the past.  How can we change the future?

[miLosh]

But it is not a time to dwell on the past. How can we change the future?

i belief we cant - the future will change its self. its the principal of cause and effect - every action provokes a reaction. the reaction nowadays seems to be terrorism. even if the initial so called terrorist attack on the WTC was at least supported by the force which claims to fight terror, alot of people in suppressed countries find terrorsim to be a more and more valuable measure to fight the oppression by the western \'civilisation\'.

you named it, american citizens are loosing more and more  their freedoms, willingly. this will stop when the public realizes thats its their beloved country fault that terrorist target the usa.  what will happen then? many collegues of mine including me are sure that sooner or later america will face another civil war. the effect will be rather dramatic, for the economic and political damage will be immense. this will be the point where the usa will have to care about its inner-political situation and loose interest on foreign countries.

the so called \'new world order\' bush senior wanted to establish back in the 90\'s may look quite different than they dreamed of. in my personal vision of a future \'new world order\' there wont be a corporation driven america plundering the world ressources in the name of democracy. everything will settle down and the great power which america is obviously not able to handle will be redistributed among the world.

[Valbrandr]

I hope the future will shape itself.  A pattern that I see (And I am not sure if I have ever heard/read this) is that when a super power falls off they seem to care less about the outside  world and no longer feel the need for Imperialism.  Then this nation begins to focus on itself.  Basically the way I view Europe now.  Social programs explode and overall this nation would become more peaceful.  But how do we stop the process?  As long as the process exists we will be having this same discussion about a different super power.  America itself is not the problem... it is the system.

[fken]

Originally posted by Valbrandr
Pretty soon I may be moving to Europe

Never forget injustice is a french word
--------------------------------------------------
If you wanna change something you just need to \"educate\" each others : to force them to think about what\'s around them and not to believe in everything the news say...
here in  France, journalists spoke (and keep on speaking) a lot about terrorism... implicitly saying terrorist = Muslim. I dont think they wanted to do it but they did it.

You know... Muslim or not Muslim, human is human : I cant imagine that a guy who believe deeply in his religion in our country, is able to become a kamikaze... There are harder and deeper facts behind the religion. And today Muslims are scared of beeing pointed like terrorist...

Today the french journalists (maybe in the rest of the world too... I dunno) realize their mistakes...
So they are implicitly precizing : terrorist are coranic schools pupils...

But I wont forget that on the same channel, just after the news, the meteo flash said \"la fin de la semaine, ce sera le week end\" : The end of the week, it will be the week end... and I wont forget the chairman of the first french channel said his job consists to sell brainwashed brains to advertising company (ie Coca Cola) on a public channel...

What I mean is that no one here seems to know what the terrorists really want... and I think that this fact is the real danger...

There are two kind of terrorism : the legal and the illegal :
-> illegal ones are the 9/11\'s ones
-> legal ones are the \"there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq\"\'s ones

In each cases, US citizen were scared just to force them to react like people wanted they react. They were manipulated... And in fact, its not only the us citizen but the whole world.
----------------------------------------
What\'s strange with all what you said Valbrandr is that you used to use the pronoun \"we\"... I think like you but you are using the pronoun \"we\" and I, I use the pronoun \"I\"... Once external countries reproach something to US citizen, US citizen say \"we\"...  It\'s like what scared me in the previous post... What I conclude with these threads is that the big majority of american people defend their country blindly against the external opinion (Bush reelection is an example / or the opinion toward the Iraq war)... There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).

[Valbrandr]

There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).

That is already happening.  Have you ever been to Ameriica fken?  Every person in America (and their brother so it seems) has an American flag outside their door.  The National Anthem is breed into us and yeah we are brainwashed in plenty of ways...

\"You are the greatest nation in the world.\"

\"We are the greatest nation in the world\"

\"We are the ............................................\"

 Many, in one way or another, are already turning against America because of the selfish/ just plain stupid things we do.  However, the only people who will pay this price is America and its allies, ie Bombings in Britain.  And I use we because it a way it is all of our faults for what is happening.  Only the people can stop what is happening.  But in America there is this dumb two party system that separates everyone and everything.  It creates two sides on every issues.  Against Abortion = Rebublican, Pro Choice = Democrat.  We get so caught up here in taking sides and not looking at the bigger picture.  

Getting into how this can be fixed though... that is a loaded question.  I guess it depends on who you are.  Some think that \"Bringing them to justice\" is the only way.    I say that by handling this situation in that way will only make it worse.  Terrorism will spread.  More Innocent people will die.  But lets be serious though, the war in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism because in actuallity there was little terrorist activity there before this war.  Which leads to the root of the problem.  Why did we go in there?  It has a lot more to do with oil then they want to say.  America only try to \"Help\" nations that have precious resources.  You wont see us in Africa anytime soon.. well I guess we will take some more of their diamonds.  But only a few countires in Africa have oil... and not much.  

America thinks to much about money and too little about international law and basically just doing what is right.  I would go into it further but I am tired now  

[fken]

I dont think every people in USA are completly brainwashed. Im not a specialist but Im sure its not the truth when I read the posts from Buddha or you (and someone else but I dont want to search...). The fact you are able to criticize the acts of your nation shows that you arent completely brainwashed.

I think that our country (not only USA but every industrialy developped countries) behave sometimes like legal terrorists...
1) brainwashing
2) endoctrinment
3) make people suffer
4) have the feeling to be protected by the god or by the truth
\"God bless America\" <-> \"may Allah be with us\"

but occidental methods are sometimes even worse... What\'s worse than dropping a bomb and killing people like that? Maybe simply looking at people dying because they are hungry while you are burning your production because of economical subject...


I think you dont realize that Africa is one of the most rich place in the world... Look at European history (France\'s history for example): we were there to steal their products...
USA said one day that South America \"belong to them\" and Europa thought Africa belong to Europa (maybe did they say that...). It\'s \"our\" relationship and I dont think USA wanna lost their almost good relashionship with Europa for countries where people are killing each others for a little bit of bread...
What\'s really amazing is that these countries could become rich very quickly... if only occidental countries wanted to allow them to earn money...

-> Ill post something about London Brazilian murder... something I fund very interesting and I need the point of view of every country (only the official point of view of your country please). look in Hyddla plaza

[Induane]

What\'s strange with all what you said Valbrandr is that you used to use the pronoun \"we\"... I think like you but you are using the pronoun \"we\" and I, I use the pronoun \"I\"... Once external countries reproach something to US citizen, US citizen say \"we\"... It\'s like what scared me in the previous post... What I conclude with these threads is that the big majority of american people defend their country blindly against the external opinion (Bush reelection is an example / or the opinion toward the Iraq war)... There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).

I think the we comes from self association.  I commonly say things like \"We Americans do not speak any language other than english.\"  As an association that sometimes comes along because we cannot deny that there are problems with being raised in america that many people just don\'t get out of.  No matter how we try to think from an outside perception we cannot completely dissociate ourselves from it because we are intertwined into it.