Author Topic: Say NO to patents!!!  (Read 2889 times)

Platyna

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2005, 12:49:02 pm »
Kiva: Microsoft not invented right click, windows, context menus, DOS,
functions in C or digits (these Arabian guys did). They either stole it or bought
from someone else. Anyway if you want them to patent it, unless you are a
multimillionaire, you are not going to have an Operating System anymore. ;)
Maybe if you\'ll port Amiga Workbench to PC...oh wait I forgot it uses mouse
cursor and windows, DOS....*grins*

But the second issue is - no one of big guys cares about our opinion.

Regards.
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
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\"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.\" -- Edward Burke

fken

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2005, 03:13:59 pm »
we dont live in a democracy anymore...

Kiva

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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2005, 05:42:06 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Platyna
Kiva: Microsoft not invented right click, windows, context menus, DOS,
functions in C or digits (these Arabian guys did). They either stole it or bought
from someone else. Anyway if you want them to patent it, unless you are a
multimillionaire, you are not going to have an Operating System anymore. ;)
Maybe if you\'ll port Amiga Workbench to PC...oh wait I forgot it uses mouse
cursor and windows, DOS....*grins*

But the second issue is - no one of big guys cares about our opinion.

Regards.


True, they didn\'t. But then again, did they ever patent rightclicking? Did they patent \"windows\" (not the OS - just the term using windows in a program) or context menus? Did they patent C functions? The last one is, of course, hypothetical. You can\'t patent int main(), but once you put together a program with thousands of code lines, you can reserve the right to use and sell this program, so others don\'t steal your work and sell it for you. But then again, isn\'t Microsoft getting forced to share pretty much all of their product informations so other companies can produce competitive products? And aren\'t Microsoft getting sued by every imaginative company, every time they do anything?

I\'m pretty sure if you were head of Microsoft, you\'d have gray hair by the time you were 20. It\'s not always easy to protect what you do and convince others you were the first to do it.

Patenting software isn\'t as bad as some might think, and it doesn\'t have anything to do with patenting thinking (I mean, come on). Like I said, if anyone here actually bothered inventing something, you\'d realize how convenient a patent is. If you do that the easy way by patenting first and then sueing everyone who touches your product, or the hard way by not patenting and letting someone else do it, and then you get sued by them, that\'s entirely your choice. But as long as none of you are in the shoes of the inventors, who are you to say what\'s right or wrong for them to do?

Patents are good as long as they\'re kept on a human level, and seriously, no matter how many internet people you get to sign a piece of paper, noone will ever change anything. Instead you should go for the president job and change things that way. The chances of success are probably higher like that. :)
\"Somewhere over the rainbow...\"

Platyna

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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2005, 07:03:57 pm »
Microsoft has patented alot of things that doesn\'t belong to them and ARE
included in Windows, details are widely available on the Internet - Google
knows. I suggest reading through history of Windows (not this one at the
microsoft.com) list of trials, patents etc. *yawns* I am bored about discussions
about microsoft thievery especially when there are alot of dark and loud cases
that are not anymore forbidden knowledge (hint: Microsoft vs. Xerox at the
beggining). If that resolution will be accepted MS will be for example able to
patent right click, they have already patented drag & drop method, windows
focus on click, alot of functions etc. which were intelectual property of Xerox.
I am not a Linux fanatic. Torvalds himself said that Linux is an operating system
not a religion or philisophy, but I also know, as a person working in IT company
that we can earn alot more when we don\'t have to pay MS for every single
thingie and we can earn even more alot if we will not pay them a cent but
popularize Linux instead, it is a pure calculation, Novell, HP, IBM can tell you that. ;)
So, if that resolution will be accepted, alternative operating systems will die.
(eg. right click is considered an algorithm too, \"Amazon\'s\" one click forms
too).
Anyway, it is not about being against patents in general but being against patents on algorithms, can you imagine a day when somebody will patent
arabian digits or latin alphabet? :D

Regards.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2005, 07:13:31 pm by Platyna »
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
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\"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.\" -- Edward Burke

Phinehas

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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2005, 07:06:59 pm »
I know I\'ll get flamed for my opinion, but is this conversation actually interesting anyone, or achieving anything? If so, please continue. Otherwise... *yawn* :D

John_Thazer

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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2005, 09:16:04 pm »
Hm...this patenting is getting wilder...and wilder...since the subject was Microsoft...did you know that Double-Click action is actually patented by them? Or another example...Amazon...they patented One click buy action! What else will they patent then?

All this dangerous patenting creates, more and more, monopolism in the ICT industry as a whole...

I mean these days, God Himself will probably will get a patent on Human beings....to stop all this cloning...:D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 12:02:35 am by John_Thazer »


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fken

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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 11:11:14 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Phinehas
I know I\'ll get flamed for my opinion, but is this conversation actually interesting anyone, or achieving anything? If so, please continue. Otherwise... *yawn* :D


personnaly, I think this thread is interesting.

@Kiva: even if I am for the freedom of expression, be carefull: you are a moderator. It mean you can moderate the forum but it means you have to be moderate before everyone else. You are representing the law here so each word you use is important. In my mind, Platyna knows a lot about patents (a lot that you dont know). Then dont contradict her without concentrate hardly on the words you will use. It\'s just an advice not a reproach.

For the one who are in favour of the patents: there are already licensing. Licensing allowed in the past a lot of industries and companies to become rich (even richer than what they had to become : its not normal that all the programmers of a company are able to buy a ferari in only one or two years of works : cf the doom saga). Today a man use an opensource program like gzip, create a gzipper and ask 30? (40$) just for a GUI. Some people lost their soul somewhere and their honesty with.

But these last times, big companies think they dont earn enough of money: they created patents... why? just because patents will force another people to pay royalties for their work. It means that companies want that people pay them but these companies hasnt to do anything anymore. It\'s like your telecom invoices...

If you are individualist, now you have to know anything: if companies have to pay to create a program (because of patents), these companies wont find the money required in a christmas gift: it\'s the one who will buy the software who will have to pay more - and when you will buy doom4,  you will pay MS for the right to use its patents, and creative and IBM and (why not) US Postal or MacDonalds (if they created a specific program then they could say a part of doom4 belongs to them even if it has nothing to deal with their activities) ...

Moreover when you will buy a new computer, your computer will cost 300$ and the softwares 600$, maybe 1000$ (its an example). A new release of each software will arrive each new year. So I think you would have to pay for new software... each 4 or 5 years (it\'s honest, isnt it? I mean its exactly what\'s already happen...). So a lot of users wont buy the software... Have you internet? are you using internet? have you an internet provider? If you have one then you have computer. If you have a computer then you have softwares... if you have softwares and are not registered as a legal user then you will have fees. Off course if you are poor, people will be able to do everything they want with you. It\'s already hapenning with the licensing. A lot of people are already outlaw. And its surely written somewhere. But for now it\'s like a chess games for Microsoft. They force you to cooperate slowly. The next step of the MS ideas is called project TCPA / Palladium -> they will be allowed to force computer manufacturers to add black boxex in their computer. Thanks to Windows longhorn, MS will be able to host each details of your privacy (to be sure you arent a hacker off course ;-) or maybe not only for that). I assure you its a real madness!

RussianVodka

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2005, 05:47:06 am »
Thank goodness Fedora Core 4 is comming out in two days! Either way, I\'m not switching to longhorn.

I don\'tthink anyone answered my question though, what kind of patants/copywrights do linux systems have?



Q: How many Planeshifters does it take to expalin a simple concept to a newb?
A: Six. Five to argue on who\'s explanation is right, and Moogie to lock the thread.

fken

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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2005, 12:12:46 pm »
the patents prices are too high and the linux community is against patents... I think there is no linux patent...
or maybe on proprietary linux software... but even ... im not sure because there isnt enough of money to make with linux (noone want to pay and everyone want to participate)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 12:14:39 pm by fken »

Seytra

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2005, 08:43:36 pm »
Linux does not have any patents at all. However, there has been a study that says that the Linux kernel (not counting any application that is isn any distro!) potentially infringes on 283 patents!
IBM has said it would not use it\'s patents against Linux, but that is not really a binding agreement.

Citing this ZDnet article:
Quote

It is a small but significant measure for a company with major efforts to patent its research, then license those patents. Still, the vast majority of IBM\'s 10,000 software patents in the United States aren\'t being shared so freely.

The move follows that of Linux seller Red Hat, a comparatively small company that objects to software patents but allows unfettered use of its own smaller portfolio in open-source software. And Novell, the second-largest Linux seller, has vowed to use its own patent portfolio to deter and counter legal attacks against open-source software.

So there is a small bit of protection.


Anyway: Kiva, the thing is that:
Patents are meant to protect the inventor because traditionally there is a lot of expense involved in an invention: you need expensive equipment at least. Software, however, can be developed perfectly well with a common household appliance that everyone possesses: a generic-purpose computer. Even if you purchase a commercial development package, you can stay very well below 3000$ in total.
Therefore, there is no investment in software to be protected!

Additionally, if I write a program, I don\'t need to find some law of nature or a creative way to use one: all I do is to translate my intentions on what I want the computer to do into a language that can be understood by the computer:
This is, in fact, the exact same as translating a recipe for cookies from italian to russian.

Therefore, patenting software is patenting pure intructions. Instructions are ideas, because a written set of instructions is a formulated idea. The program you have written is copyrighted, for free and automatically, so noone can simply use or copy it without your consent!
Thus, what does a patent increase in protection? Exactly, it is supposed to keep others from making competing products that do the same job! You patent software, you patent the idea on doing the particular thing, so noone else can ever write anything similar!

Also, we are not talking about really good ideas, or revolutionary concepts like a new compression algorithm: algorithms are mathematics, and as such have been exempt from patenting for a good reason: by disallowing use of algorithms, you disallow the progress of mathematics, because noone will be able to build upon it!

This is exactly what is being done with software: all software is based on things that were \"invented\" before, and improved upon them. By tying up these ideas, there cannot be any progress in software development anymore!

Bill Gates himself said:
Quote
Originally stated by Bill Gates in 1991
If people understood how patents would be granted when most of todays ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a standstill today.



Last but not least: doesn\'t it strike you as odd that
- big corporations are in favor of software patents
- small companies and individual programmers are against software patents

- software patents are argued by the promoters (i.e., big companies) to help the small companies and individuals

How can that be? Why do the ones who are supposedly benefitting not want it? Why do the ones who are supposedly losing out want it?

- scientists are against software patents
- lawyers say that programmers should not look at software patents at all because if they infringe the patent, they will have to pay thrice
- promoters of patents say that patents encourage spreading of the knowledge
- patents are deliberately worded unclear, broadly and not concrete and are not comprehensible by anyone except lawyers

How can that be? How can something promote exchange of knowledge if it cannot be understood by those it supposedly is made to communicate anything to? How can it exchange knowledge if the ones who defend it on these grounds themselves say that it should not be used by those it is supposed to help? How can non-scientists insist on that something helps science if scientists say it doesn\'t?

So obviously, One party is lying, and, considering that a patent doesn\'t just cost ~50000$ to get, but also costs several millions to actually enforce, the party with the actual means to pay all these expanses are extremely suspicious of lying. Would they really push hard for legislation that harms them?


As for your claim that none of us who oppose patents have never invented anything: have you? How about the programmers who are supposeldy inventors? Why are they not in favor of software patents?

Also, Microsoft has said it wants to get 3000 patents each year! Do you honestly believe that anyone, regardless how big the company, can invent that many true, real inventions per year?

Edit:
For a glimpse on what methods are being used by the patent-promoters, see this. Note that the EU council is made up of the patent offices\' heads, and the European Parliament is the only instance that is voted in by the population, and thus the only one that has any democratic legitimation.
The council tried to pass the Software Patent directive on a meeting of agriculture and fishery, several times! Do you still not smell something fishy there?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 09:39:59 pm by Seytra »

EsRyn

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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2005, 06:42:07 pm »
Maybe a defense proving prior use?

The main focus in the United States for some of the Linux companies to defend against some of the more bogus patents MS tried for and got here, is prior use.  I am not as familiar with linking as some here, but it isn\'t hard to find info on it in the net.  There are some patents that are legit, but some, such as the one which seems to be patenting tabbed browsing and can also be interpretted in several ways, such as multiple desktops, only got through because you can get a patent without much proof that no one else got it first.  Here, you have to prove you used it first if someone else has patented it already.  The patent office does absolutely nothing to research or make applicants prove they did it first.  You just apply, and get the form... It would be a lot better if there were a public waiting period of over a year, and ANYONE can contest it, and no one gets the patent until there is proof in the event of a contested patent.

In many cases, other companies used things way before MS tried to patent it.  General concensus is that no one is going to try to fix the patents, until MS tries to sue someone. Then, they are going to band together and prove prior use and back each other with legal defense funds.  I am not sure how well that will work.  Prior use is a good idea to look into though, because you can get the patent taken away.  Look at the first one for motor vehicles here.  Someone had a patent for decades, and had to put the plaque even on Ford cars at first that this other person had the patent on the motor.  Until someone went and proved that the guy never intended to nor built a motor, it was all theory, and when he did build one from his design, it didnt go more than a few miles and badly at that.
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lynx_lupo

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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2005, 08:15:49 pm »
EU isn\'t USA. IIRC the prior use concept isn\'t in use here.
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ajdaha

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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2005, 05:56:33 pm »
If we start to patent technology, more people shall begin to take risks with their ideas as it will be easier to part from the currently used technology. Because right now, it doesn\'t pay to be too creative as if you fail you\'re screwed, and if you succeed, so what it\'ll get copied by everyone anyway.

This is the opinion of a person who has never seen how the world works, yet. : )
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 05:58:25 pm by ajdaha »
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Entamis

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« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2005, 07:48:24 pm »
Seytra sums it up very nicely.
Quote
Originally posted by Kiva
Patenting software isn\'t as bad as some might think, and it doesn\'t have anything to do with patenting thinking (I mean, come on).

Yes it does. The only thing you need to create software is your brain. Your work is protected by copyright and nobody can steal it from you.. except using patents. With software patents you can write a program and then get sued for it! You may end up not having rights for your own program!
Quote
Like I said, if anyone here actually bothered inventing something, you\'d realize how convenient a patent is. If you do that the easy way by patenting first and then sueing everyone who touches your product, or the hard way by not patenting and letting someone else do it, and then you get sued by them, that\'s entirely your choice.

I\'m a programmer so I\'m directly affected by software patents. Software patents are a threat for me, nothing else. And as long as I\'m not a millionaire there is NO WAY I could patent anything.

Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2005, 04:11:39 pm »
There will be no software patents in Europe!
European Parliament DID NOT approve The Software Patents Directive! 648 representatives were against it!
:D
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« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 04:46:31 pm by Wired_Crawler »
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