Author Topic: Don't Discuss a GM's decision on Forum?  (Read 1228 times)

Teegress

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Don't Discuss a GM's decision on Forum?
« on: June 03, 2005, 04:01:43 pm »
I\'m sorry, but that doesn\'t make any sense, Ms. Moderator.  Where else are we to discuss game issues?
Changing an established guild\'s name after months of play is an issue to be discussed.
And, for your information, the GM told me and others who were inquiring to the reasons, to GO to the forums to bring up the issue.
I have been a most active player in this game for a couple of months now, but I am getting fed up with the totalitarian attitude exhibited by these rude immature so-called game masters.  
I guess now, a moderator will come on here and tell me that the game is pre-alpha, or I don\'t have to play, I don\'t understand something, or that I am just lucky to be here.
I am not a crumb-snatcher, i.e. I am not here because the game is free.  I am here because I have made some friends, and I appreciate the work in progress.  I would guess I am one of the older players of this game.  I could and would support PS financially or any way necessary, but not with the current PR tactics used by these people.
Are you trying to run off everyone who does not walk your chalkline?  Seems like you just want a select few to play the game.  If that is so, I would like Talad to respond, because I already know how the help feels.
After a time, you will find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting.  It is not logical, but often true.
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buddha

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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2005, 04:58:30 pm »
This is an ongoing issue around here, Teegress.  The mods seems to think that dissenting opinions are worthless, and the only way to preserve order is the kick anyone they don\'t like.  Worse, as soon as you complain, you\'ll get a host of people posting telling you that you deserved it.  You can look forward to that.

Any reasonable person will agree in principle that open debate it good.  However, they are much more reluctant to defend it in practice.  Some of the mods here are young, and don\'t understand what it means to accept criticism gracefully.

Of course, as you point out, when they become dictatorial, who do we go to?  Apparently noone.  If a GM does something out of line, the only people you have to report it to are, well, the GMs.  It weakens the community to have unchecked GMs.  I now know two people personally who have left PS because the GMs were a bit drunk with power and attempts to complain were met with \"this is a free game, you shouldn\'t complain\".  Yes, free and open source.  Or it is supposed to be, silencing dissentions contradicts the open source nature.  But I think that is too subtle for many around here to understand.
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Kiern

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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 05:09:29 pm »
This has always been a problem in Planeshift ever since they started letting players be moderators (or I guess people who just aren\'t good at it now).  As long as the discussions are controlled, there\'s really no reason not to allow them...though there\'s nothing that can be done about it that hasn\'t been tried.

But whatever. :O
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 05:15:34 pm by Kiern »

acraig

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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2005, 05:34:24 pm »
Well, it\'s a no win situation really.  If people hate the Moderator then it\'s probably a sign they are doing their job.  :)

That being said if you have a valid reason ( with evidence ) that you think a Moderator or GM is consistantly incorrect and/or acting in an inappropiate manner then contact myself and Luca with that evidence so we can review it.  

On the flip side I could also comment about how people complain about \'evil\' mods when they don\'t know the full story because the moderators delete offensive material.

I can picture a situation like this in game:
1) Player has name \"Idabest\".  Now this is not an appropiate name.
2) GM asks player to change their name
3) Player asks \"Why, I\'ve always used this name?\"
4) Debate ensues
5) GM gets tired of debate and changes name
6) Player runs to forum yelling \"Evil GM\"
7) Others jump on the thread

So you have to look at both sides here as well.  

But like I said. If you think you have a valid issue then contact me ( acraig@planeshift.it ) with evidence ( ie logs, threads, etc ) and I will review your case and take any action I think is neccessary.
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Phinehas

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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2005, 05:34:56 pm »
It is a serious issue. The only thing I can suggest is that the more responsible players strive to become moderators, therefore ensuring more responsible moderators. Problem is, very few of the actual intelligent, responsible players are interested in spending the amount of time in-game that it takes to be \"worthy\"(pfft) of being a moderator. Not that there aren\'t some, but for the most part...

Teegress

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2005, 07:06:34 pm »
Well said Phineas :)
The GM enforcing a decision told me to come here and post.  The sticky rules say to not question a GM\'s decision in a post, go to the irc channel.  The irc channel moderators told me not to gripe there on the channel.  What is one supposed to do?
You want to continue to ignore these mishaps until no one is playing except the \"blessed\" ones?


Quote

If people hate the Moderator then it\'s probably a sign they are doing their job.


or not.  If same moderator, different people, wake up!

Why can\'t you put in the code the names that are NOT allowed?  I\'m sure it wouldn\'t take that long to ban the obvious ones, like thug, rogue, and those used in the game, nor the offensive words.  Other databases do it.  And then a GM would not be in that situation except in very rare cases.  
One GM banned the name Gunrod because they saw \"gun\" and \"rod\" in the name.  I saw a similie to \"gunter,\" \"gondor\" or \"dorgun.\"  It\'s a relative perception and banning that name, I thought was an immature decision, but I did not question it then.
I know you want everything in these forums to be happy and smelling of roses, so new folks will come on and say, \"wow, this must be a good game!\"  Then they find out there are high-handed immature egos at the helm and quit.  Look at all the inactive players now.  Wonder why?
I know you have a good team of programmers and artists.  Probably some of THE best.  But some of these moderators are going to be the death of this game.
I know, I know,
I\'m wrong :P
After a time, you will find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting.  It is not logical, but often true.
           Spock

Seytra

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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2005, 08:05:04 pm »
The reason why the name of the \"established\" guild has been changed now and not before is simple: GMs have finally started to enforce proper guildnames, which was way overdue.

There is absolutely no justification for improper names. The arguments \"I always use it\" or \"I\'ve had that name in PS for 3 years\" also are absolutely worthless.
Any decent RPer would not use a name that doesn\'t fit the setting, etc. of the game, even if the ingame name generator presented them with it! If they, by some mistake or misconception, did, anyway, they would, upon finding out about it, ask for the change themselves.

I\'m even inclined to say that sticking with an improper name should be punished more severely for older players than for new ones, because the older players can be expected to have gained deeper insight into PS than the newbie, even one that has read all guides.

The only GM mistreatment I have witnessed is that many GMs are too lax in enforcing proper names!

You cannot expect GMs to try to persuade / discuss each and every silly name; there are by far too many such fools streming into PS every day. Also, chances are hight that the offending char is not online when the GM is about to change the name. Therefore, obviously, the only way to keep the waste of time reasonable is to simply change without discussion ( the \"totalitarian attitude\" ). People with improper names are parasites because they force other players to endure their stupidity and GMs to waste their limited time on changing their stupid names in order to keep PS from degrading into the mess other MMORPGs are, and thus should be treated accordingly! There is no reason to give extra benefits to people who come here and chose to ignore the rules! :tdown:

The presence of strict enforcement of acceptable names and behaviour and the encouragement of RP (instead of just tolerating it) is exactly why I am still with PS, so I feel that the Mods / GMs are part of what keeps PS alive.

As for the database: what will happen? Exactly, the database will never be able to contain every single dumb name and variation of such that lamers may come up with. Hence the situation would be even worse: people would be complaining \"Dude, my name \"Zooparmahn\" was not on the banlist, so obviously it is allowed!\". This would make matters even worse than they are now!

The only fault I see is that the GMs told you to go here and post, instead of asking you to discuss it with the GM. Anyway, Acraig responded on that, anyway.

And no, dissenting opinions are not censored because they might make PS look bad. They are censored because they are uninformed, immature and most often insulting and offensively worded. There are several dissenting posts / threads that weren\'t deleted; what these have in common is that they are presented in a reasonable and constructive manner.

The dead accounts are due to people getting bored with the very limited options PS gives them, and those people who just come to check it out.

Obviously the freeness of PS does impact the strictness of GMs: there is no financial interest in having as many players as possible, therefore GMs are not forced by marketing and management vultures to betray their duty for the sake of the corporate machine!

Last but not least: to prevent any sort of favouritism or corruption, and to avoid bigotism, it is my opinion that any GM who has a char (be it GM or not) with an improper name, should immediately and permanently be deprived of GM privileges, the offending char deleted and the GM possibly banned, as they obviously don\'t care about what they are supposed to enforce!
How can we expect anyone to adhere to the naming rules if not even GMs do?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 08:11:41 pm by Seytra »

Kiern

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 08:53:05 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
There is absolutely no justification for improper names.

Any decent RPer would not use a name that doesn\'t fit the setting, etc. of the game, even if the ingame name generator presented them with it!


The question is what names should be considered improper.  Not whether or not improper names should be allowed.  There are so many guilds with names that have absolutely nothing to do with Planeshift (like for example, as I said in the other thread, OI).  The words Ordo Illuminatis have as little or less to do with Planeshift then the word \"dragon\".  Once again, as I said, it is just a NAME.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
The only GM mistreatment I have witnessed is that many GMs are too lax in enforcing proper names!


You obviously haven\'t read that many threads on this subject.  Some examples are even given in this one.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
\"Dude, my name \"Zooparmahn\" was not on the banlist, so obviously it is allowed!\". This would make matters even worse than they are now!


This goes back to my original statement.  What is wrong with the name \"Zooparmahn\"?  I know plenty of people in real life with weirder names.  And their names in no way harm me, except maybe when I try to pronounce them and they get pissed off.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
And no, dissenting opinions are not censored because they might make PS look bad. They are censored because they are uninformed, immature and most often insulting and offensively worded.


Uh, no.  Discussions are pretty much not allowed here anymore, period.  If they are it is only a little bit before they are locked.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
The dead accounts are due to people getting bored with the very limited options PS gives them, and those people who just come to check it out.


Once again, this is an obviously wrong statement and I\'m not sure where you hide out all the time to miss so much.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Last but not least: to prevent any sort of favouritism or corruption, and to avoid bigotism, it is my opinion that any GM who has a char (be it GM or not) with an improper name, should immediately and permanently be deprived of GM privileges, the offending char deleted and the GM possibly banned, as they obviously don\'t care about what they are supposed to enforce!
How can we expect anyone to adhere to the naming rules if not even GMs do?


I\'m just curious about this one.  Are there really GMs that don\'t have RP names?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 08:54:04 pm by Kiern »

Teegress

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 08:55:28 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra

As for the database: what will happen? Exactly, the database will never be able to contain every single dumb name and variation of such that lamers may come up with. Hence the situation would be even worse: people would be complaining \"Dude, my name \"Zooparmahn\" was not on the banlist, so obviously it is allowed!\". This would make matters even worse than they are now!


I disagree. There is a high probability than most combinations of consonants with vowels will result in a thought in some language.  Check with the car companies on what they go through just to name their latest model.  Some words are offensive or have a distinct meaning in another language, unknown to the user.
That said, then the game should assign names as the characters are created.  Why allow players to choose their names, only to allow some and ban others because of the relative understanding to whomever is on duty that day.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
The only fault I see is that the GMs told you to go here and post, instead of asking you to discuss it with the GM.


I think I mentioned that I attempted to discuss it with the GM that took the action.  I was threatened with muting.  I have read several of your posts (not all, of course) and you seldom find fault with anyone directly connected to PS.  Why is that?

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
And no, dissenting opinions are not censored because they might make PS look bad. They are censored because they are uninformed, immature and most often insulting and offensively worded. There are several dissenting posts / threads that weren\'t deleted; what these have in common is that they are presented in a reasonable and constructive manner.

I have no arguement on offensively worded posts, but  some criticisms are treated as insulting because someone disagrees with the moderator.  I see evidence of this all through the forums.  

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
The dead accounts are due to people getting bored with the very limited options PS gives them, and those people who just come to check it out.

Some truth, but you seem to only believe what you want to on that subject anyway.

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Obviously the freeness of PS does impact the strictness of GMs: there is no financial interest in having as many players as possible, therefore GMs are not forced by marketing and management vultures to betray their duty for the sake of the corporate machine!


I understand this as a take it or leave it attitude.  Am I mistaken?

Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Last but not least: to prevent any sort of favouritism or corruption, and to avoid bigotism, it is my opinion that any GM who has a char (be it GM or not) with an improper name, should immediately and permanently be deprived of GM privileges, the offending char deleted and the GM possibly banned, as they obviously don\'t care about what they are supposed to enforce!
How can we expect anyone to adhere to the naming rules if not even GMs do?


Nothing has been said about GM\'s doing this.

I have sent the log file to the ones I think will take this matter seriously and not be as defensive.  I can only hope that it will improve the role-playing quality of PS.
After a time, you will find that having, is not so pleasing a thing after all, as wanting.  It is not logical, but often true.
           Spock

Kiva

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2005, 08:56:38 pm »
And it has been said so many times - if you have a problem with a GM, contact one of the highlevels (all lvl9 GMs are trustworthy, except Xordan of course, as they are all devs), write a mail to the devs (acraig already gave his email, and the rest of them are listed on the help us part of the .it site), or go to the #planeshift channel and get in contact with a dev there.

Forums are not for telling how badly you were treated, because people on a forum can\'t argue for/against their case, they just tell a story and expect people to say \"oh I feel so sorry for you, let\'s show this GM how wrong he really was\". But that doesn\'t happen, so they go into defensive mode and say \"OMGZOR THIS GAME SUX THE BALLZ AND I DONT LIKE YOU ANYMORE11!one\". So to prevent that kind of idiocy, we close them all down and tell people time after time after time that:

Quote
if you have a problem with a GM, contact one of the highlevels (all lvl9 GMs are trustworthy, except Xordan of course, as they are all devs), write a mail to the devs (acraig already gave his email, and the rest of them are listed on the help us part of the .it site), or go to the #planeshift channel and get in contact with a dev there.


The end.

P.S. If you have ideas for ingame features, put them in the wish list and not in a complaint-thread.

P.P.S. The devs won\'t care if you tell them the GMs are dumb. We\'re a few people who have tried that already.
\"Somewhere over the rainbow...\"

acraig

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 09:47:56 pm »
Well, we do try to maintain a list of banned/not usable names and we add to it whenever we see a new name that should be added to that list.  Whenever a GM sees a name that should never be allowed they can add that to the list of not usable names.  Creating a list of ALL unusable names is not quite as easy at it sounds.  But over time the master list of names will be just as good I think.

But anyways, I think we can resolve your issue later tonight, Teegress.  I am still at work here so I am in not a good position to make any changes or read my planeshift.it email.
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