Not Guilty

[fken]

Originally posted by ajdaha
What I think is that our whole society looks at sex the wrong way.

I realize something odd thank to 9/11: when something bad happen in USA, US citizens think everyone is touched!
I mean when the plane crashed into the WTC, CNN said \"the world has changed\" and some phrases like this one... In fact, I knew absolutly nobody in the WTC, I dont care about dow Jones or even cac 40 and almost at the same time another drama was touching a country in Asia... So... 9/11... wasnt really in my mind...

And now you are saying exactly the same as CNN. \"our whole society\" ... do you really think every countries in the world look at sex like yours? Im even not sure every american states have the same vision about sex... In France, people laught at USA because in some states some sex positions are forbidden. So every american states dont look at sex with the same mind (the law isnt the same in each states!).

Then, do you really think a child will choose to make love with an adult? The real first problem is that a child wont choose anything!

Then I think you are a male, ajdaha, because you didnt noticed the first time could not be the \"paradise\" for everyone... Moreover, dont forget it would hurt you more when you are young... And finally when someone is rapped it\'s not a nice thing done with condoms and vaseline... the rapist dont care about the victims wellness... And what I find horrible in that act is really the violence around it.

I still try to understand your point of view and even if, like you, I think sometimes people around me have a wrong way to judge sex, Im still very astonished when I read your last post... and I think there must be a misunderstanding: when someone accuse a guy of having touched a child, I understand the guy is a rapist. Maybe do you understand anything else...

[Taurenthefirst]

fken you come up with some crazy connections... 9-11 and jackson?
and what does sex positions have to do with it?
i\'m sure that if indeed the kid was raped (i am becoming more and more doubtful that he was...he and his mom were con-artists.  oh well, i\'m not the judge!) ... the position they were in was the last thing on his mind... and why does it matter if different states have different laws on some things? they all have the same laws on rape, which is what we are actually talking about!
oh well, i\'m not really sure what the point of your post was (and no, it\'s not because of your language, it\'s just because none of your rambling ideas make any logical sense (spelling?)) oh, and btw fken, please don\'t try to explain your reasoning to me like i know you will (you always do) by just reposting everything you have already said- that is pointless and stupid. just leave it alone i guess...

@ajdaha-
i disagree, sex is alot different and alot more serious than other actions... like opening a jar of peanut butter...
even if you don\'t even talk about moral issues, there are most definitely possibilities for physical damage...
do the letters s-t-d ring a bell? (woo! go high school health class!)
also, not that i\'ve actualy experienced it myself, but i would guess being raped would be very violent (if the kid resisted him of course, which i hope he did! if he didn\'t... well then we get into a whole different matter of wether it was actually rape or not... you know... the whole kids can\'t make real choices thing, so let\'s not go there) and therefore physically harmful... unless he was drugged... which is also physically dangerous... how can you say rape is not physically harmful? that is such a stupid assumption...
but anway, even without all those issues above i  disagree with you soley (spelling? sorry i can\'t spell) based on my moral beleifs.

edit: spelling again...

[ajdaha]

I actually think anything against kids is wrong cause they haven\'t had the time to make their own judgements and everything affects them phsycologically.
But the result of the rape of this kid, physically, was nowhere near, losing a limb or watever. He\'s still alive and well (if he actually did get raped, sorry).
I would class Michael Jackson\'s actions as just assault if only it wasn\'t a kid he was raping. Because the fact that he probuably wasn\'t aware of the experience, and it was strange for him might have cause him phsycological ddrama. But if we would change our opinions of sex as a comunity and openly discuss it with children and everyone else, it would not have been more of a shockthan getting muged and being exposed to some disease at the same time.
It\'s like we\'re lying to ourselves when we don\'t speaka bout sex more widely. I hate parents that really think that sex is against nature and try to conceal it from their children for as long as possible.
We  shouldn\'t lie to each other, just educate each other.

[fken]

@Taurenthefirst: you were close to understand what I\'ve written... but you forget to concentrate yourself ;-) . No, seriously I wont argue with you. If you wanna speak with me and argue with me please read my post before replying

Regards

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@ajdaha: I think it depends on the family not really on the society. I dont think sex is a real big tabou in France even if the majority of the jokes are about sex (if this kind of joke works it means speaking about sex isn\'t as easy as I believe... I recognize). But personally Ive no problem to speak about sex and our societies are pretty close...

[leji]

the problem of any trial about sex-abuse is that there are almost never any evidence, it\'ll always be based on the declaration of the victim, and we will probably never be able to tell if someone tells the truth, so these trials are a bit stupid, if you cant prove, you cant put someone in jail...
Still it\'s important to show that rapes are not things you can deal with like other crimes, the trials usually show that it\'s not normal to be attracted by a child, and this is a good thing. ajdaha, I dont know how you were educated, but in my mind, sex isnt something you do with your neighboors or your teacher just because they want to, it\'s a mutual agreement to give pleasure to the other one, and this has to be concious, or you can lose the specificity of sex. And I\'m nearly sure it\'ll be a problem in future relations, a child is an emotional sponge, he cant handle such a relation because it isnt \"normal\' it is not in the natural code of conduct.
I\'m really amazed that you can think in that way, it\'s dangerous, and I hope you\'re aware that it\'s absolutely not normal, and mentally very dangerous for anyone to be raped.

[DepthBlade]

Um yah you are all michael jackson pro\'s you guys who say he is in debt act like you have the bills for everything of his...maybe stop listening to what you hear on T.V and what your friends tell you and look at the facts \"Pop King\", makes money from his songs everytime one is played on T.V, Radio, Some internet music sites. He will never go poor just like Elvis\'s family will never go poor because the money keeps pooring in even when your dead, thats the life of a \"King of Music\" no matter the genre.

This trial and this whole matter should have been done in private like everybody elses. No reason it should be aired like this it only gives the celebrity stalking freaks more to talk about.

[fken]

Originally posted by leji
And I\'m nearly sure it\'ll be a problem in future relations, a child is an emotional sponge, he cant handle such a relation because it isnt \"normal\' it is not in the natural code of conduct.
I\'m really amazed that you can think in that way, it\'s dangerous, and I hope you\'re aware that it\'s absolutely not normal, and mentally very dangerous for anyone to be raped.

I think like you until a kind of limit: you speak about natural about normal...
Even if Im against rape, I recognize raping is natural because it\'s the way some species choose to save their specie... For us (poor little human beings, born in industrial society and educated by this society) this act is awful but ONLY FOR US.
My conclusion is simple: rape is \"normal\" because rape is natural but human beeing concept isnt \"normal\" because it isnt natural... off course there is a lot of examples which explain how human beeing isnt really outside the nature... and off course rape is one of these examples. I think people need to know the part of the nature hidden in itself to understand rapists and then to judge them. And the only way to do that is to lost pride and to stay humble.
I can tell you that even if Im a male, making love without loving... it\'s not as strong as if you love. You dont feel the same feeling and you can\'t really enjoy. So a rapist must be lost to rape someone... I dont think the rapist need the judgement of the society or anything like that (especially TV camera and so one). But I think once there is a rape, there isnt only one victim... Naturally the raped person is the victim of the act but the rapist was already a kind of victim. I simply cant think someone born criminal (and really despise the one who said the contrary). Something must happened and trouble the normal life of someone. These ones are becoming criminals because they are victims.
I dont care if Michael Jackson is or not a criminal... It\'s his life and I think it\'s a guy who already suffered a lot. Im not a judge, Im not concerned. And moreover, I have compassion for him. I learnt in my life how to see interesting elements in the news. What\'s interesting is always what\'s not on the focus. If Michael Jackson was accused it means first that he was a perfect target: he must have no love and certainly feels alone. Im sure he is sad and I hope he will feel better.

[leji]

rape is \"normal\" because rape is natural

Can you give me the name of an animal that rape childs ? Think about dogs, they wont do anything until they have reached a certain age when females start producing pheromons or whatever. I guess it\'s the same for most species.

@DepthBlade: Dont be so sure, some artists dont get money everytime a song is aired, it all depends on the contract. Jonhny Halliday (famous french singer) for instance, isnt owner of most of his song, and he just a trial where he wanted to get some more money from them. I dont know about M. Jackson case, but he could be as poor as me

[fken]

I said \"rape\" not \"child rape\"...

NB: I already saw a dog which raped another dog but it\'s not really the best example.

I dont have the time to search for examples but I remember the best example was a submarine animal (a kind of crabe).

PS: do you think a 13-aged girl doesnt produce pheromones?

[John_Thazer]

Bahh...I\'ll tell you this...leave the poor guy alone...

[DepthBlade]

Originally posted by leji

rape is \"normal\" because rape is natural

Can you give me the name of an animal that rape childs ? Think about dogs, they wont do anything until they have reached a certain age when females start producing pheromons or whatever. I guess it\'s the same for most species.

@DepthBlade: Dont be so sure, some artists dont get money everytime a song is aired, it all depends on the contract. Jonhny Halliday (famous french singer) for instance, isnt owner of most of his song, and he just a trial where he wanted to get some more money from them. I dont know about M. Jackson case, but he could be as poor as me

As far as we know, the guy hasn\'t sold off his songs yet like the beatles some others. Even with that said there is MJ Merchandise, the movie thriller is still selling to this day...basicly the chance he is broke is very low. The chance he is broke is like the chance of me being correct when saying everyone here is loaded.

[leji]

PS: do you think a 13-aged girl doesnt produce pheromones?

I really dont think so

[Nada]

Originally posted by fken
Even if Im against rape, I recognize raping is natural because it\'s the way some species choose to save their specie... For us (poor little human beings, born in industrial society and educated by this society) this act is awful but ONLY FOR US.
...
I think people need to know the part of the nature hidden in itself to understand rapists and then to judge them.
...
I simply cant think someone born criminal

Raping as a reproductive strategy is a most disturbing and very controversial theory. While I understand your point, allow me to differ.
Concerning animal species other than humans, violent sexually-motivated assaults and penetration sometimes occur, this is true. The \"defining attribute of rape in humans is the lack of informed consent, which is difficult to determine in other animals\" (Wikipedia). Now we have two options, either it looks to us like rape but it is not (some form of anthropomorphism) or it really is rape. In this second case, I believe that such behaviour is exhibited by a minority of the given species so it is not \"normal\". Also, the fact that it is not widespread can be used to show that it is not a (suitable) reproductive strategy (if ever this is what it is).
Now concerning humans, let us assume that rape is biologically motivated or \"natural\" as you say. It is therefore part of our nature (or that of people with rapist genes, if you adhere to that idea) which makes every man a born criminal (the very idea you abhor).
Rape \"is awful but only for us\", as you say. According to Wikipedia, rape \"is considered by most societies to be among the most severe crimes.\" My opinion is that the greater the equality between genders (or the less women/children are regarded as objects/inferiors) in a society, the more likely it is that rape will be severely punished in that society.
Like you, I believe that no one is born a criminal. Human beings are capable of thought and of choice. This is precisely why rape (whether biologically motivated or not) cannot be excused.

Originally posted by DepthBlade
As far as we know, the guy hasn\'t sold off his songs yet like the beatles some others.

Actually, Jackson bought a majority of the Beatles\' titles during the 1980s (now jointly shared with Sony). However there is much speculation about whether he sold/will sell them because of financial problems. Afterall, Neverland is a money pit and he has settled a number of lawsuits for quite a large sum of money.