Author Topic: London brazilian murder odd information...  (Read 3694 times)

fken

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London brazilian murder odd information...
« on: July 30, 2005, 11:39:18 pm »
I just start this thread because i didnt had the time to read the complete information about this act...

I was in Antibes for holidays and I listen to the french radio. It said something like :
-> a mistake of the britanic policemen : a Brazilian has been shot 8 times (with very close shots -> \"? bout portant\" in french). It precizes the Brazilian was innocent and said coldly that Blair was ok with this act and said he regrets nothing... Our (ssssoooooooooooo loooved :rolleyes: ) minister, N. Sarkozy, said (off course... because this one like to speak in front of french news camera) that in France this kind of act cant happen...

Nothing more. And the implicit message was off course that British are behaving violently, losting their nerves and killing innocents...

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I wasnt ok with that fact and off course with Sarkozy because even him must know he was lying...

I know for example that there are less shot people in GB. I know sometimes french policemen made mistakes and even big mistakes (maybe one month ago news spoke about a man who was discovered dead in a street very close to a policestation... just after exiting the policestation... and all this story was odd).
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And as I was in Antibes I was able to see GB newspapers...

and TADA !

these ones were speaking about defensive shots...
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French news hate to be wrong. With the war in Iraq, Blair was shown like a finished prime minister. It was like if noone would like to vote for him... And who has been reelected ? -> Blair !

But French news never realy lye -> if they said that there were 8 close shots, there were 8 close shots and so its a murder...

How are explaining GB newspaper that policemen shot the Brazilian 8 times thinking it was a defensive act while they were something like at one meter of the Brazilian? And what\'s the ideas of the others countries?

hitancrias

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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2005, 12:19:20 am »
It\'s indeed a very tragic case. But nothing more then that I believe. No conspiracy. They mistook the poor man for a suicide bomber. I also do believe the police and the authorities have apologized.

It has been in the media here, but not really that much. I remember something about it being a special anti terror police force, trained to instantly kill to prevent the suicide bomber press the button. They also had a training in Israel, if I remember correctly. Well, that\'s about what our media made me believe. :)
Hitancrias. Herbalist. Explorer.

fken

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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2005, 12:08:57 pm »
I dont think about conspiracy but i think policemen has done at best a mistake or in another case a kind of revenge...

but I cant understand why the news are different between each countries...

Seytra

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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2005, 11:37:52 pm »
Indeed this hasn\'t had a lot of news coverage around here, which is quite surprising considering that just a few years ago, the police shot a real criminal and received tons of flak for it, with people even laying down flowers for the killed criminal!

Anyway, IIRC, the guy ran from the police, which also explains the relative proximity. This is something very very stupid to do, because it does make you look guilty. Adding to that the problem that a bomber will only need a second to blow up a lot of people, even if it\'s not planned as suicide (if he suspects he can\'t get away, he may still figure that he\'ll be \"better off\" just killing himself).

Therefore, it is quite understandable that they made sure he didn\'t get to push the button. In fact, it is the only viable solution. Immobilising a bomber doesn\'t work.

There is no way he could have missed the bombings, and also no way he could not have been aware of the wariness and nervousity. Running from an armed police squad is almost in any case a very bad idea.

I\'m definitely not saying that they should just shoot anyone who looks somewhat suspicious. However, considering how many people can get killed if they act too late, this is a sad but necessary tradeoff. Tragic, yes, but unavoidable.

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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2005, 11:49:22 pm »
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Anyway, IIRC, the guy ran from the police, which also explains the relative proximity. This is something very very stupid to do, because it does make you look guilty. Adding to that the problem that a bomber will only need a second to blow up a lot of people, even if it\'s not planned as suicide (if he suspects he can\'t get away, he may still figure that he\'ll be \"better off\" just killing himself).


The reason for the man ran away from the police hasnt been well explained. The reason is very basic by the way. The man, a foreigner in the country, had recently beeing spanked by a group of men, who probably done because of his skin colour/nationality, and when he saw the police going to get him (I have the idea that his skin colour could a motive for the police try to \"speak with him\" ) he made the terrible mistake of confuse them with the group that spanked him tryed to run away(what makes me suspicious about the way how the police approached him) beeing then shooted.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2005, 11:49:41 pm by Ashamn »
Draw me not without reason
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Xordan

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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2005, 02:19:22 am »
Was the guys fault for running away, and even worse, into a tube station. They can\'t shoot the body in case it triggers a bomb, so he got shot 5 times (not 8) in the head. (Not sure why this many, probably the adrenaline in the policeman.)

People who blame the policeman saying that it was an awful thing, and that the police are too strict carrying weapons with a shoot to kill policy are exactly the same people who, if there is a terror attack with lots of deaths, say how awful it is that we\'re so lax on security, and how we should have tighter measures.

As for the French media... well don\'t expect the UK media to be very sympathetic if there\'s ever a terrorist attack in France. Probably won\'t be because the French seem give in to the terrorists every demand. (Not speaking about all French. Just the crap leader and his underlings.) :)

Valbrandr

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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2005, 02:49:21 am »
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As for the French media... well don\'t expect the UK media to be very sympathetic if there\'s ever a terrorist attack in France. Probably won\'t be because the French seem give in to the terrorists every demand. (Not speaking about all French. Just the crap leader and his underlings.)


Huh???

Who gives into terrorists?  And even if they did give in a little (In which i dont know anything about that) is it better or worse than going to war with a country over trumped up charges of terrorism?  And so the guy did run.... you cant just kill him.  What are the chances that he is a terrorist? And we cant think that every person who runs from the cops is a terrorist... so for any of you who was going to say, \"What was the cop supposed to do?\"  How about not kill the innocent man for acting suspicious :).

Seytra

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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 03:38:15 am »
Valbrandr, sorry, but in case of this sort of danger, acting suspicious is a reason to get killed.
Yes, he was probably about to be questioned due to his skin color. Sounds pretty reasonable to me considering the origin of the terrorists.
Though if he really got beat up by some nazis who looked similar to the police I can indeed imagine that he ran. However, this doesn\'t make the reaction of the cops any worse IMO. It just makes him less stupid.

So Valbrandr, what would they have had to do in your opinion? Let him leave? What would have happened if he actually would have been a terrorist and killed, say, 100 people after he entered the sub station because they let him run for it to not kill a maybe innocent but very suspicious person, hmm?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2005, 03:38:55 am by Seytra »

Valbrandr

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2005, 05:11:08 am »
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So Valbrandr, what would they have had to do in your opinion? Let him leave? What would have happened if he actually would have been a terrorist and killed, say, 100 people after he entered the sub station because they let him run for it to not kill a maybe innocent but very suspicious person, hmm?


So, I say we amend the Patriot act so that cops can shot to kill  if there is a suspicious character.  

*Valbrandr signs patriot act that will most definatly take away all of his rights

Would you rather me do this?

And btw, racial profiling is not reasonable.  What America did right after 9/11 was and will always be wrong.  I was not saying that he should have been not even chased.  But no need to kill him.  He could have set off a bomb at anytime while running and I am sure that he was not killed after the first shot.  What exactly were they trying to do?  There is a lesson here.  We cannot take action on what \"could\"  happen.  Preemtive strike is another failure that the USA will pay for, for years to come.

Induane

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2005, 05:14:12 am »
Lets all just start with the facts.

Fact # 1.) The man was wearing a heavy coat even though it was hot outside.

Fact #2.) The man ran from police. Into a tube station!

Fact #3.) GB was just the victim of attacks.

Using these simple facts we can find our way to the obvious solution that he was a terrorist or could have been.  Then it all seems easy.  Though the police made a mistake it was an honest mistake.

In fact it all seems fine until you realize that once you make this decision based on the recent attacks, that the terrorists have already won.  One of the goals of terrorists is to cause fear in a country.  Causing fear causes another subreaction - that people want to be safe.  As a result they will be less likely to be up in arms about a situation where a suspicios man was shot, deciding to air on the side of caution.  They will be more apt to give up freedoms in the name of safety.  This is what terrorism and people reactions causes.  IT eventually puts more power into the governments to protect us, while slowly removing freedoms from the coutries.  No matter where you go in the world there are bad people - people who will use this to their advantage.  And guess what - some of these people are in power in your countries today.  In every country today.  Power has the power to corrupt, the same way money does. (odd sentence I know).  The result of all this is if you give into terrorism enough to let it govern the decisions of your daily life in that way, then you have already lost.  You are going to be giving up personal freedom in the name of safety to people who probabily don\'t really have your best interests at heart.

Anyone who wants to be more safe than free is an idiot.  If you disagree in this case then I say you are a complete moron. Offense intended.  Sorry.  It is true.  LIfe is pointless without free will - freedom - the most basic right of all.

Origionally said by George Bush
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The American people do not falter under threat - and we will not allow our future to be determined by car bombers and assassins.


Sorry ole pal but our reaction to 911 ensured that it does have a bearing on our future.

Look at what happend to the US after 9/11.  We signed the Patriot Act.  The Citizens cheered as it was signed into law. Hurray for Bush protecting us!  We can finally be SAFE!

\"Agents can break into a home or business to take photos, seize property, copy computer files or load a secret keystroke detector on a computer.\"

Hmmm sounds like freedom to me - does it sound like we affected? Sounds to me like the terrorists already were successful in changing our attitude.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2005, 03:16:31 pm by Induane »

Xordan

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2005, 01:55:42 pm »
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Who gives into terrorists? And even if they did give in a little (In which i dont know anything about that) is it better or worse than going to war with a country over trumped up charges of terrorism?


Worse. Paying terrorists to free a hostage just gave them the money to make lots of bombs so they could kill more people.

And I see that nobody you knew were tortured or gassed by Sadam so you don\'t see a reason to get him out. Maybe the reasons they stated were wrong, but the job needed doing by someone. The situation over there before was much worse than it is now, but the media just never reported it.

I also see that nobody you know was ever blown up by a suicide bomber, or maybe you\'d feel differently about allowing the risk of something like that happening.

As for less freedom etc. Yes, to increase security we have to give up some privicy. It must be balanced so we have maximum freedom while making sure we can\'t be killed by terrorists. If we have to give up some privicy to stay alive then I\'m happy with that. Think of it like this:

The more liberal a society the less security there is, and the easier it is for terrorists to attack us. Terrorists use our liberalism as a weapon against us.
The less liberal a society the more security there is, but the less freedom we have. This is the kind of society which terrorists want us to be like.
Gotta have a balance.

Uyaem

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2005, 04:25:38 pm »
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Originally posted by Xordan
And I see that nobody you knew were tortured or gassed by Sadam so you don\'t see a reason to get him out. Maybe the reasons they stated were wrong, but the job needed doing by someone. The situation over there before was much worse than it is now, but the media just never reported it.


So how come then that those oh-so-honorable reasons were never spoken out loud? Who gave the right to invade a sovereign country to do whatsoever?
Don\'t say human rights or morale now - sending the military to enforce human rights is like using fuel to extinguish fire.
Circumstances don\'t matter. What if a more powerful Russia towards the end of the Cold War had decided that the way workers are exploited in the \"Western Countries\" was not right and decided to \"liberate\" Britain, in a unilateral decision with other nations disagreeing but looking away?

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Originally posted by Xordan
As for less freedom etc. Yes, to increase security we have to give up some privicy. It must be balanced so we have maximum freedom while making sure we can\'t be killed by terrorists. If we have to give up some privicy to stay alive then I\'m happy with that. Think of it like this:

The more liberal a society the less security there is, and the easier it is for terrorists to attack us. Terrorists use our liberalism as a weapon against us.
The less liberal a society the more security there is, but the less freedom we have. This is the kind of society which terrorists want us to be like.
Gotta have a balance.


That\'s the very principal of what we define as freedom. While a fork is a good and helpful tool, you can\'t cut your meat with it. They try to fight terrorism with conventional means, while it works so differently. Those who believe that armed forces will be the right tool to wipe out terrorism have not understood how it works.
Terrorism will always be there, one way or the other, the thought of obliterating it is as blue eyed as curing world hunger. Allowing politics or \"the people in charge\" to cut all our rights as they deem fit (and this is what is currently happening, all in the name of the \"war against terror\", a term which in itself is flawed) indirectly makes those suicide bombers achieve their goals. With the media playing right into their hands.

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Originally posted by Xordan
I also see that nobody you know was ever blown up by a suicide bomber, or maybe you\'d feel differently about allowing the risk of something like that happening.

Personal feelings, as harsh as it sounds, give you a very subjective perspective and makes people overreact. I can\'t say that I ever lost someone in such a tragic way, but I got stuck in NY in 2001 and could take a look at the smouldering remains of the World Trade Center, which was close enough for me - but I certainly do not intend to let my awe stumble blindly into a future in which the country I live in will treat me like toilet paper and not as the citizen I am.
The internet is "the terrorists'" most important weapon, they say.
Wrong.
Fear is their most important weapon.
Ours is our freedom.

fken

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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2005, 04:46:33 pm »
fact 1 : Im french and in france, weather is warmer than UK
-> so I could have to wear warm clothes

fact 2 : Ive algerian (Kabylie) origins...
-> so I could be in the focus

fact 3 : if a terrorist attack happen in the country I\'m spending my holiday, I would be scared by everyone I dunno and especially cops

fact 4 : I dont think Im too original...

-->result : Ill never have holiday in UK. The other foreigner could certainly think like me. Thanks to the british and to the occidental help, terrorists win!

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I think Xordan that you never was in Iraq. Dont speak about Sadam, please.
I mean that the main idea of this thread is that news are different relatively to the country you are... I think you could understand some journalist are kind of liars... So dont speak about Sadam, you\'re like me: all you know about him has been told by the news, and in fact we will certainly never know the exact truth. Never forgot occidental countries gave him weapons and helped him to fight Iran. I dont think government believe in someone blindly so there are a lot of hidden facts we dunno.

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Xordan, do you really speak about 5 shots ? I heard and listen 8 shots in france... I hope journalists arent lying with the number of the shots... it would be childish!

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Policemen are trained to shot by letting the criminal alive. They must shot in the arms and the legs... normally

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its impossible to kill someone who is almost 1meter close to you without seeing he has no bomb. Policemen must have lost their nerves and shot... but these men have never recognize it was because of their incapacity to stay calm and to make a good job... People like them require a judgement for murder (especially because they lies to save their job without beeing able to do it correctly) because for me they are real potential bombs, liars, they have no honnor and then... they simply are killers.

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Who are you guys to say a man could or even shoud (!) be killed? Really you are desappointing (especially the one who live in countries where the death penalty is absolutly forbidden). I live in a country where people judged one day that death penalty is a bad thing which is representing bestiality and not humanity. I refuse to come back to the ideas of a dark past!

All I know is one thing people seems to forgot:
-> I PREFER LET A CRIMINAL GOING AWAY THAN KILLING AN INNOCENT.

Moreover, if you think killing a criminal will save lifes you are wrong... simply because if one man isnt able to drop a bomb another will do it. And the examples arent the good solution because with all the examples of dead or mayhemed terrorists ... you certainly realize there are more terrorist attack...

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I remember french news spoke about a french guy who has been in London and disappear the day of the first terrorist attack. And Im still wondering if he is well today. He has arabian origins and surely must has been so scared to go back to his home in England because of his origins.

You guys with your incredibly high objectivity will certainly say \"he is guilty because he didnt come back\"... but if I were in London, if a terrorist attack happen and if in my street people are broadcasting my photo saying I could be a terrorist, I really dunno how i could react... really! Especially when you look at the way the USA react with the terrorists to get informations...

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Maybe I must find more individual argumentation...

What would you say if it was your brother, your sister or one of your parents who get killed and not an unknow brazilian?

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The only real way to defend our countries from terrorism is to really help the foreign countries to develop themselves AND to be sure the government are making what people want! (and its not the path we are following today...)

Xordan

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 05:34:51 pm »
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Who gave the right to invade a sovereign country to do whatsoever?


The country with the most guns can do what it likes. The US completely ignoring the UN proves this.

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What if a more powerful Russia towards the end of the Cold War had decided that the way workers are exploited in the \"Western Countries\" was not right and decided to \"liberate\" Britain, in a unilateral decision with other nations disagreeing but looking away?


Then I\'d be living in Russia??

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Personal feelings, as harsh as it sounds, give you a very subjective perspective and makes people overreact.


True, also not having any experience makes you feel complacent. It\'s easy to talk in hindsight about this kind of thing so lets say this:
if that guy had been wearing a bomb under that coat and the policeman didn\'t shoot him, or shot him in the body so that the bomb went off in the train killing 50 people then would we be discussing why the policeman didn\'t shoot the guy to kill and save those people\'s lives?

Put yourself in the position of the policeman. You see a guy in a big coat on a hot day who you think is a bit suspicous. You ask the guy to stop so you can talk to him and he runs away into tube station, where a terrorist attack took place only the week before. You follow him into the station calling for him to stop but he runs towards the nearest train. You now have a few seconds to react. Either you shoot to kill, or you risk him having a bomb under that big coat and detonating it killing lots of people. I\'d shoot to kill.

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so I could have to wear warm clothes


In the few seconds the police had to think, they wouldn\'t have time to consider this possibility.

Photo evidence of mass graves is enough justification to me to invade a country btw. I\'m not saying that the countries doing it did it in the best way, but it certainally wasn\'t a bad thing.

Yes, it was definately 5 shots.

You can\'t shoot in the arms or the legs. Either the shots would set off the bomb or the person would once they\'d been hit.

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its impossible to kill someone who is almost 1meter close to you without seeing he has no bomb.


You obviously didn\'t see the size of this coat :) You could easily hide something underneath. One of the passengers on the train said he saw wires sticking out from the coat and thought it was a bomb as well, although this turned out to be headphones or something. This guy was only a meter or so away. So it isn\'t so easy.

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especially the one who live in countries where the death penalty is absolutly forbidden


Treason carries the death penalty in the UK.


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Moreover, if you think killing a criminal will save lifes you are wrong


Sure, killing isn\'t good once they\'re caught. But when somone is potentially armed who\'s in a public place you don\'t really worry about it. This is the problem. You think that bombers actually care about dying?? A lot of people seem to for some reason. If that guy had been wearing a bomb then he wouldn\'t have let himself been captured once he\'s caught. He\'ll just blow himself up and everything around him with it.

I agree that racial targeting isn\'t good.... but lets look at the facts here, most suicide bombers are asian in bloodline. You can\'t deny that.

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What would you say if it was your brother, your sister or one of your parents who get killed and not an unknow brazilian?


Would have served them right for running away. Nobody in my family is stupid enough to run away from armed police into an area which was recently targeted by suicide bombers.

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The only real way to defend our countries from terrorism is to really help the foreign countries to develop themselves AND to be sure the government are making what people want! (and its not the path we are following today...)


Agreed. Development helps a lot. Unfortunatly you have the leaders of those countries who are more intrested in making weapons with the money we give them.

Uyaem

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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2005, 05:54:45 pm »
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Originally posted by Xordan
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Who gave the right to invade a sovereign country to do whatsoever?


The country with the most guns can do what it likes. The US completely ignoring the UN proves this.


And this makes it right?
With that argument, Saddam was also right to randomly kill people in his country. Why? Because he had more power. ?(

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Originally posted by Xordan
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Personal feelings, as harsh as it sounds, give you a very subjective perspective and makes people overreact.


True, also not having any experience makes you feel complacent. It\'s easy to talk in hindsight about this kind of thing so lets say this:
if that guy had been wearing a bomb under that coat and the policeman didn\'t shoot him, or shot him in the body so that the bomb went off in the train killing 50 people then would we be discussing why the policeman didn\'t shoot the guy to kill and save those people\'s lives?

Put yourself in the position of the policeman. You see a guy in a big coat on a hot day who you think is a bit suspicous. You ask the guy to stop so you can talk to him and he runs away into tube station, where a terrorist attack took place only the week before. You follow him into the station calling for him to stop but he runs towards the nearest train. You now have a few seconds to react. Either you shoot to kill, or you risk him having a bomb under that big coat and detonating it killing lots of people. I\'d shoot to kill.


In dubio pro reo. If the police would shoot anyone who looks suspicious, all tube stations would be full of corpses now. Of course the discussion would be there then as well, but the murder is then on the hands of the terrorist, not on the policeman who swore to serve the citizens in his country.
Shooting on suspicion is to me like imprisoning three people, just because one of them commited a crime and you can\'t be certain which one it was. This is against the very principles of judicature as we know/have it.

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Originally posted by Xordan
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so I could have to wear warm clothes


In the few seconds the police had to think, they wouldn\'t have time to consider this possibility.


Yes, I totally agree with you here.

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Originally posted by Xordan
You can\'t shoot in the arms or the legs. Either the shots would set off the bomb or the person would once they\'d been hit.


There\'s also triggers that work on relaxation on the muscles, so shoot to kill is not a good option either. Fortunately this information seems to have not reached the next best terrorist cell yet - so please, if you are a terrorist and read this, ignore what I just said.

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Originally posted by Xordan
Treason carries the death penalty in the UK.


Not anymore. Crime and Disorder Act 1998: Abolishment of capital punishment for treason, also: European Convention of Human Rights 1999. :)
The internet is "the terrorists'" most important weapon, they say.
Wrong.
Fear is their most important weapon.
Ours is our freedom.