Hate to be the bearer of bad news...

[wertigon]

But it looks like Windows Vista will make your PlaneShift experience just that much worse. :/

No, this isn\'t a bad joke, though I wish it was. All games that currently use OpenGL (Doom3, UT2k4, America\'s Army to mention a few) will run worse, much worse in some cases, on Vista than they do on XP. Microsoft are making a big mistake here, but before the rest of the world realises it, the damage will already be done.

This is exactly the same kind of crap they pulled with Internet Explorer (those who has tried to design standard-compliant CSS-powered webpages know what I\'m talking about). Thank you Microsoft for making it nearly impossible to develop cross-platform games. Really. And to think, only yesterday I actually thought there might be a day where I\'ll respect Microsoft as a company.

[Edit]Sorry about that, links now work. Note to self: Only quote values when not using BBCodes.[/edit]

[Kiramon]

None of those links works for me...

[Keyaz]

*shrug* stay on a platform that works till they fix it

thats why they\'re called Microsuck!

[Entamis]

Originally posted by wertigon
Thank you Microsoft for making it nearly impossible to develop cross-platform games. Really. And to think, only yesterday I actually thought there might be a day where I\'ll respect Microsoft as a company.

Are you surprised? They\'ve been doing it for ages. M$\'s policy is to make their products incompatible with anything else, because it makes it hard to switch to competing products. And the harder it is, the better for M$. Why do you think they want software patents so badly?

[Cyl]

Well I dont care, I didnt get XP I wont go for Vista...

[Xordan]

Yeah I read about this....

It\'s a good thing I don\'t use windows really
Gentoo + Wine/Cedega = enough for me.

[wertigon]

Originally posted by Entamis
Are you surprised? They\'ve been doing it for ages. M$\'s policy is to make their products incompatible with anything else, because it makes it hard to switch to competing products. And the harder it is, the better for M$. Why do you think they want software patents so badly?

Not surprised, no. However, I am dissapointed. To me, Microsoft is like a well-known family member that has been doing drugs and heavy crime and all kinds of negative stuff and is now on parole, given a second chance, and showing signs of and a willingness to get out of their current state.

With IE7, Microsoft finally showed signs of actually listening to what everyone outside the redmond-based company thougt. There were signs of redemption. Heck, they even released a couple of Open Source applications. And then they pull this. It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.

You knew it\'d come to this, but deep down you\'ve started to hope that maybe this time it\'ll be different. Maybe this time, they\'ll actually listen. And then they show you that no, they won\'t. They won\'t ever change.

[ramlambmoo]

Pffft people, wait until the thing is released before you make a judgement.  Given all the applications that run on openGL, I\'m doubtful that this will actually happen.

And then they pull this. It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.  

Correction, It\'s like having someone tell you that they saw plans for your family member to rob a bank in over a years time.

[garlando]

If you read up on this, the only time the performance will be hit is when you force windows to maintain the composited desktop during gameplay. I dont know about everyone, but I tend to like playing games in fullscreen mode and in fullscreen the desktop will be switched off and the problem will not occur.

Also it seems that the problems mentioned in many articles now are trying to implement this sort of design with OpenGL that is available now, when in reality the software will have to be re-written anyway to provide the performance equality between ATI and nVidea.

It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.

To expand on the analogy further, it\'s like seeing plans for said family member going into a bank next year and then coming out with money. You assume he is going to rob it, but perhaps he is just going to make a withdrawal.

Despite what any nay-sayers out there think Microsoft (Not M$ -- you fools) tends to get it about right, and if someone comes out with something better they normally tend to provide updates for free.
If they are planning to come out with this then it must be assumed that perhaps they know a bit more about the workings of their operating system (that they havent released yet) than we do, and so they may have a vauge idea as to how it will work.

Give them the benefit of the doubt now and then flame them (as I am sure you will anyway) after you have seen it for yourselves.


P.S.   Just to make sure this doesnt end up as a MS vs. war, I use both XP and OS X for different things so I am not \'affiliated\' with either. I just dislike the open flaming that ensues any time microsft says anything

[fken]

can you remind me? open GL ... directX ...
Is open GL patented by MS or not? so maybe is it the explanation... Never forgot B Gates was a thief who steals Macintosh technology. This peanut guy is the biggest peanut of the world in my mind. He has no honnour and his company has less honour than him.

Personaly I wont buy MS products anymore: Ive paid for MS windows xp home and my computer has been wasted by virus, troyans and things like that... Off course the main security issue was my provider\'s connection program... (thank you 9tel!) thanks to the free community, I fund antivirus, firewall, pppoe connection program, and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...

I know something about TCPA / Palladium and I know that Longhorn is another name for this project. Thanks god I\'m using linux since kheops 2.0 and Mandrake 6.0 (or 5.3 I dont remember) and now I know Ive done the good choice... It could be harder to do it quickly my friends so begin as soon as possible believe in me !


PS: in everything I posted in this forum, feel free to replace the word \"peanut\" with the word you want...


@Xordan: can you explain to me what are you able to do with wine and how are you able to use it by pming me or emailling me? because I never success (and never really try longly i must admit...).

[wertigon]

No, this is bad in general. PS is OpenGL. I don\'t know about you, but I like having my MMO Games run in windowed mode, and/or run in a different monitor. Of course, I\'m spoiled with a 21\" screen when at home, and most my friends have either that or Dual monitors, so YMMV.

However, this move will force PS to do one of two things on Vista:

a) PS cannot run in OGL2.0 only OGL1.4, or
b) PS use the nVIDIA/ATi driver, making Aeroglass break.

This isn\'t nearly as bad for full-screen apps as it is for tools using OpenGL (Maya, Blender, AutoCAD...), but it\'s still *bad*. Treating OpenGL as a second-class API is bad for everyone involved.

As for this being the beta and thus not final yet: Yes. Yes that\'s very true. However, to change it it\'d require a complete rewrite of the way Aeroglass renders, meaning that Microsoft will have to push the release date of Vista back another 6 months. For some reason, I can\'t see them do that, especially  since they\'re hurting from not having anything new out there right now. So, this is probably more or less permanent.

[ramlambmoo]

As for this being the beta and thus not final yet: Yes. Yes that\'s very true. However, to change it it\'d require a complete rewrite of the way Aeroglass renders, meaning that Microsoft will have to push the release date of Vista back another 6 months. For some reason, I can\'t see them do that, especially since they\'re hurting from not having anything new out there right now. So, this is probably more or less permanent.

God, thats some nice assumptions... can you give any links or proof that it will take another 6 months of development to change it?  That sounds awfully speculative to me, you know.

can you remind me? open GL ... directX ...
Is open GL patented by MS or not? so maybe is it the explanation... Never forgot B Gates was a thief who steals Macintosh technology. This peanut guy is the biggest peanut of the world in my mind. He has no honnour and his company has less honour than him.  

Wtf? openGL patented by microsoft? Uh, openGL is a free open source graphics library that competes against DirectX.  Last time I checked, microsoft had little to do with it, and didnt patent it.

Personaly I wont buy MS products anymore: Ive paid for MS windows xp home and my computer has been wasted by virus, troyans and things like that... Off course the main security issue was my provider\'s connection program... (thank you 9tel!) thanks to the free community, I fund antivirus, firewall, pppoe connection program, and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...  

Thats most probablly because you download suspect email links and go to dodgy websites.  I for one have had XP home on my laptop for 1 and a half years and havnt gotten a virus to date.  It depends on the users actions just as much as the o/s.

I know something about TCPA / Palladium and I know that Longhorn is another name for this project.  

Uh hu, and Palladium, I.E their system for trying to crack down on unauthorized content, viruses and spyware, has what exactly to do with their implementation of openGL in their next windows version?  Im sorry, I just dont see the link here.

[fken]

@ramlambmoo : thank you for your explanations...

1) off course i know open GL isnt patented by MS... but the one who didnt understood what i meant understand now thanks to you

2) I think open GL developpers will have to find the solution alone (without MS help) because MS knew what will happen with that kind of policy : games developpers will have to use directX off course! and not an open source project... It\'s MS kind of policy.

3) I\'m proud to be able to understand where my viruses came from thanks to your help guy!

So just a question:
you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...

-> solution : the windows \"without fail\" boot and then regedit, eradicate the peanut programs who are starting up on the boot of your computer and reboot... and the instalations after I installed pppoe opensource client and everything works a charm...

But I think it\'s a problem of mail guy ! because of course my mails are checked under linux debian and same things for internet exploration...

4) uh uh speaking about palladium is another way to show the MS policy that\'s all

I hope the clarification helps you to understand my previous post and I dont want to feel aggressed anymore if you understand what I mean... Before repproaching anything or trying to say to somebody he is wrong, just be sure you understood everything he meant.

Cordially,
fken

[garlando]

/me rubs his hands together

you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...

Wrong, you delete the partition, reformat the partition (properly not using the quick function) Then you install windows and it works nicely
You then install a virus scanner. Then you connect it to the internet...
I am unsure what you mean by installing isp drivers but if these include any free internet acceleration drivers, there is the source of some major problems.

After having installed a decent virus scanner, and then used windows update, EVERYTHING WORKS!!!!

As far as viruses are concerned, the reason that there are lots of viruses for windows is simple. Percentages.
More people use windows than use all other OS\'s combined (this was true 6months ago apologies if it has changed since then). If you want to cause an impact, you target your virus at the largest population. There is no point in making a virus for OS X, 97% of computer users wouldn\'t notice! and with linux, people would probably assume that you have built the kernal incorrectly. So you target your virus at companies, and goverments and the public. Virtually all of which use windows!

anyway I have gotten sidetracked.

and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...

You mean that you are forced to pay for media content that otherwise you would pirate for free? Shock... Horror...

Now to actual ideas as opposed to countering other statements:

OpenGL has been designed from scratch to provide an alternative for DirectX. The creaters of OpenGL have worked to ensure that it works well under windows as it currently does. Now why assume that the creaters of openGL will call it a day and stop trying? Someone there will almost certainly be on the beta list of Vista and so can then start trying to come up with OpenGL2 or other evoloution. Just because Windows changes doesnt mean that everything else will fall in a heap, just that it will have to adapt and improve.

Also, DOS 6 was a wonderful operating system at the time. It was stable, it was fast(at least for the time), so why have windows 3.1? Everyone had to rewrite their software to make use of the new features. But the computer world improved. Then comes windows 95. Again a vast improvement, changes had to be made, but again the software evolved and became better etc. etc.
Now we have XP which works very well (as long as you dont voluntarily install spyware/spamware on it) and we are complaining that someone might make somthing different because it may involve some more work for other people.

How about having a dualboot sytem on a comp (XP and Vista)? or a shortcut somewhere that reboots using XP? (in a similar way to OS9 or classic running on OS X). There are many soloutions to whatever problems that are faced, and whether they are solved by Microsoft, or by people developing freeware, if it is a big problem, then it will be solved.

So let Microsoft actually release their software before telling them it wont work and then looking like fools when it does work.

[/rant]

[fken]

Originally posted by garlando
/me rubs his hands together

you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...

Wrong, you delete the partition, reformat the partition (properly not using the quick function) Then you install windows and it works nicely
You then install a virus scanner. Then you connect it to the internet...
I am unsure what you mean by installing isp drivers but if these include any free internet acceleration drivers, there is the source of some major problems.

After having installed a decent virus scanner, and then used windows update, EVERYTHING WORKS!!!!

I was sure somebody would tell me that... I never install windows without formating everything of course... Is there something else I must precize to defend myself?

Originally posted by garlando
As far as viruses are concerned, the reason that there are lots of viruses for windows is simple. Percentages.
More people use windows than use all other OS\'s combined (this was true 6months ago apologies if it has changed since then). If you want to cause an impact, you target your virus at the largest population. There is no point in making a virus for OS X, 97% of computer users wouldn\'t notice! and with linux, people would probably assume that you have built the kernal incorrectly. So you target your virus at companies, and goverments and the public. Virtually all of which use windows!

1) servers are very- often using linux or berkley os.
2) OS X is very close to linux os... simply because apple use linux sources...
3) 97% ? I am not sure of your number but it\'s only because I heard something at tv yesterday which said 97% of windows users and 3% of mac users... they forgot to think about linux (China would like to turn itself to linux for example to counter american redmond company...)  and others os (unix solaris os/2... if someone keep on using it and a lot of others I even dont know it exists...)
So maybe is the 3% of mac os user right but if you watched the same thing as me at tv... it was bad numbers.

Originally posted by garlando

anyway I have gotten sidetracked.

and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...

You mean that you are forced to pay for media content that otherwise you would pirate for free? Shock... Horror...

Since I discover free music I simply stop buying cd\'s... Why buying when your cd\'s sellers is selling you \"Star academy\"\'s song (A kind of trash tv where you watch at students who have almost no ability to sing and who will win the right to record a cd) and when internet give you everything for free legaly... I must admit I buy every cd that the cranberries has done... even if I already knew all their songs before...
But I dont buy cd anymore...

NB : just for you because I like you: http:/irate.sourceforge.net

and if you are french speaker (because you need to understqnd french to understand) look for yolan, reflet d\'acide, naheulbeuk and the last one ... hum what\'s the last one ?!!! Ill tell you that another day... just the time required to remember.

Originally posted by garlando
Now to actual ideas as opposed to countering other statements:

OpenGL has been designed from scratch to provide an alternative for DirectX. The creaters of OpenGL have worked to ensure that it works well under windows as it currently does. Now why assume that the creaters of openGL will call it a day and stop trying? Someone there will almost certainly be on the beta list of Vista and so can then start trying to come up with OpenGL2 or other evoloution. Just because Windows changes doesnt mean that everything else will fall in a heap, just that it will have to adapt and improve.

Also, DOS 6 was a wonderful operating system at the time. It was stable, it was fast(at least for the time), so why have windows 3.1? Everyone had to rewrite their software to make use of the new features. But the computer world improved. Then comes windows 95. Again a vast improvement, changes had to be made, but again the software evolved and became better etc. etc.
Now we have XP which works very well (as long as you dont voluntarily install spyware/spamware on it) and we are complaining that someone might make somthing different because it may involve some more work for other people.

How about having a dualboot sytem on a comp (XP and Vista)? or a shortcut somewhere that reboots using XP? (in a similar way to OS9 or classic running on OS X). There are many soloutions to whatever problems that are faced, and whether they are solved by Microsoft, or by people developing freeware, if it is a big problem, then it will be solved.

So let Microsoft actually release their software before telling them it wont work and then looking like fools when it does work.
[/rant]
It\'s not the problem of MS capacities its a problem of MS policy. If they dont want openGL they will try to kill openGL.
a dual boot ? Everybody isnt rich enough to do that legaly.