Second wipe

[Karyuu]

Verrliit: All the stat gains you have enjoyed are a test :) Balance must continuously be adjusted until the dev team finds something what works. Currently, it does not work. The balance is off, skewed. Wipes are needed to start over and test the adjusted balance anew.

I would think this to be self-evident.

[Xordan]

Firstly: Please point out where we promised that chars wouldn\'t be wiped again.
Second: This is version 0.3. People should except us to have to do things like wipes at any time until we have something stable. In the future once things are more stable we would have another migration if we ever did have to wipe.
Third: Like I said, stat training is completely wrong. People have gotten too good, too fast, which upsets the balance of things. If this was version 0.6, by which point we will have a stable rules base I\'m guessing, which we don\'t at the moment, then you\'d have every right to complain.

[r.guppy]

so what if some people made 10K or 20K, its useless unless you have PP, to train skills, to get PP you have still to kill more powerful monsters.
and anyway its paled by the sudden windfall of super swords, unless of course you want to moan about that as well.
So to summarise how is it to be tested quickly without these little hickups, or do you want us to be like this for months testing the new loot system.

[ramlambmoo]

Firstly: Please point out where we promised that chars wouldn\'t be wiped again.  

From the Offical wipe thread:

When is this going to happen? That depends. We don\'t like to do this. So we will try to do this when we are absolutely sure that we don\'t have to do it again.

Its not a promise, but I can see how people could have iterpreted it that way..  The obvious implication is that the attempt to do it when they were sure they wouldnt have to do it again has failed.

[Verrliit]

Oh, by all means Karyuu.

Heaven forbid, that some might have been exceptional, and done much better than others.  That is intolerable, and must be made impossible to achieve.  Let the stories and the artistry and passion and effort of the players be damned.  They have no importance or value.

If you who push for character wipe have your way, this world will become a bowl of oatmeal, bland and tasteless, unsurprising and uninspired.


The Devs have stated that the reason for wiping the characters, was because the format of the new progression framework was incompatible with the old database. They have every ability to limit progression in any way they see fit, and I have watched adjustments being made along the way.

The Devs announced that character stats and skills would be the only thing that would survive the second wipe, which would follow by a matter of weeks.  Only a fool would ignore that, and fail to push their development as far as they could.

So what surprised you Wipers, about how the players responded after the Wipe?  That we have so few fools?

I also point out that there are now weapons that can do over 600 hp of damage in a single strike, but players have a max hp of less than a third of that.

It is obvious that the current max for stats will not forever be the ultimate limit.

From the announcement of the wipe, I quote:

This means that in the first run, you will get quite powerful items. Those will most probably be removed with a wipe of objects a few weeks after the first, when all controls will be present.

And from the thread of that announcement, the second post is from the Dev, Jorrit:

Originally posted by jorrit
A bit of clarification. There will probably be two wipes. The first big wipe will occur at the same time as the update. Everything will be wiped then (characters, items, everything).

In a few weeks (i.e. the traditional PlaneShift \'soon\' :-) there will \'probably\' be another smaller wipe where all items will be removed. This is only needed if the generated items turn out to be too powerful and we need balancing there.

Greetings,

There is no problem here that requires a character wipe.

There are only those who wish to wipe the characters of others.


The Dark Lady
Verrliit

[Karyuu]

Oh please. At first I really enjoyed your posts, Dark Lady, but you seem to use your gift of poetry in most unsavory ways sometimes. How about we all get off our high horses.

Originally posted by Verrliit
Heaven forbid, that some might have been exceptional, and done much better than others.  That is intolerable, and must be made impossible to achieve.  Let the stories and the artistry and passion and effort of the players be damned.  They have no importance or value.

Stories? Artistry? Passion? Passion of what, exactly, gluing yourself to the computer for days and nights, clicking buttons to attain the highest possible number of some stat without which your character cannot be roleplayed? Yes, by all means Verrliit, heaven forbid that some might have been exceptionally without any other task to attend in their lives so that they would max a few skills in a pre-alpha tech demo in a matter of days and then complain about \"discovering\" that the pre-alpha tech demo is in a TESTING stage. Lordy.

Do you go around slaughtering people, Verrliit? Gather a group of other characters around yourself and butcher a few Trepors to show that your skill in weapons exceeds all? Constantly? What skill is so important that you cannot be yourself without it? I honestly and genuinely do not understand, and request an explanation. This format of RP is alien to me.

If you have your way, this world will become a bowl of oatmeal, bland and tasteless, unsurprising and uninspired.

Hi. Do you know me? Do you know my character\'s own story? Her own world and personality? Maybe find it able to rival your own? If you keep thinking that you are the only person with an \"artistic\" vision here, it\'s time to change your view.

The Devs announced that character stats and skills would be the only thing that would survive the second wipe, which would follow by a matter of weeks.  Only a fool would ignore that, and fail to push their development as far as they could.

The devs are not gods, Verrliit, no matter how much they may be worshipped. They are very capable of making mistakes, and promises that may not be fulfilled. This has been proven in the past. You are not entitled to anything, by any means. The only thing you are paying with is your time, which you have voluntarily given, and are not owed for. If the dev team decides that the current balance must be adjusted and a wipe of stats is the way to do this, you have no right to argue. No one has any right. And you have no idea how many hours I myself have given to this game, so before you start with your \"You\'re-just-so-inconsiderate-of-all-those-who-dedicated-their-life-hours-to-this\" rant, remember that.

I also point out that there are now weapons that can do over 600 hp of damage in a single strike, but players have a max hp of less than a third of that.

Yes. Hi. Balance issue? Need for adjustment? Thanks.

There is no problem here that requires a character wipe.

There are only those who wish to wipe the characters of others.

I would very much like to see you drop your persecution complex. And read a few of Xordan\'s posts.

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Verrliit
The Devs have stated that the reason for wiping the characters, was because the format of the new progression framework was incompatible with the old database.

No, the reason isn\'t that at all. Nothing like it in fact.

Originally posted by Verrliit
It is obvious that the current max for stats will not forever be the ultimate limit.

No it won\'t be, but it\'s well on its way there.

Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Its not a promise, but I can see how people could have iterpreted it that way.. The obvious implication is that the attempt to do it when they were sure they wouldnt have to do it again has failed.

Well at that time we were only going to have one wipe. Then it turned into one big one and one small one. Maybe now that small one will be another big one, I don\'t know. I do know that we expected to have to wipe again in the future anyway.

Originally posted by Verrliit
There is no problem here that requires a character wipe.

I think that the amount of people who have got 150\'s in their stats so quickly is enough reason, but it isn\'t my decision overall. I dislike any powergaming at all which might be biasing my reasoning. People should develop their character as they play, not write a history of when they were weak and want to start off powerful.

[Valbrandr]

Heaven forbid, that some might have been exceptional, and done much better than others. That is intolerable, and must be made impossible to achieve. Let the stories and the artistry and passion and effort of the players be damned. They have no importance or value.

Actually Verrliit Im not sure if you were exceptional at anything.  I seen what you were doing.. before all the monsters became bugged.  As myself and many others had to fight the trepor because they always attacked us.. you sat at one killing it all day and it never fought back.  Everyone you killed by yourself never attacked you.  and remember when we partied that one time... it did attack you and killed you if I am not mistaken.  This really has no point... but people who were cheating the entire way please do not act as if you were exceptional at anything.  Plainly, you cheated... but either way its not going to matter because as of now when the monsters no longer fight back against anyone I guarantee there will be a wipe.. pffft.. finally I agree with Xordan on something  

[ramlambmoo]

Stories? Artistry? Passion? Passion of what, exactly, gluing yourself to the computer for days and nights, clicking buttons to attain the highest possible number of some stat without which your character cannot be roleplayed? Yes, by all means Verrliit, heaven forbid that some might have been exceptionally without any other task to attend in their lives so that they would max a few skills in a pre-alpha tech demo in a matter of days and then complain about \"discovering\" that the pre-alpha tech demo is in a TESTING stage. Lordy.  

Yes, well done Karyuu, anybody in here can play the \"You have no life because you waste so much time playing PS\" card.  What have you spent your time doing?  Standing around talking?  Just because someone else spends their time in game actually doing something doesnt mean it\'s anymore wasted then someone who does nothing.  There is very little anyone in here could attest to as being productive time spent in PS, unless you are one of the Devs and you are spending that time debugging.  

And you have no idea how many hours I myself have given to this game, so before you start with your \"You\'re-just-so-inconsiderate-of-all-those-who-dedicated-their-life-hours-to-this\" rant, remember that.  

And yet, she is the one \"gluing [her]yourself to the computer for days and nights\"?  If you would kindly enlighten me as to how your time spent somehow elevates you above hers?  I dont quite get that statement really.  Not to mention the irony of telling someone to remember something which they \"have no idea\" about, is somewhat bemusing.  I\'ll assume that part just came out badly.


The issue as I see it is rather delicate and balanced.  On one hand, no one expects that the characters we have now will completly travel over to the eventual release.  However, there is some expectation of reward for putting in effort and testing now, and not just have the devs wipe at whim.  Im all for there being wipes to fix bugs etc, but I still think an effort should be made to reward players for being in game.  We all saw how the number of players dropped off dramatically when the first wipe was announced.  What was most ironic for me, was that in those final few weeks there were many more Power-levellers, compared to Roleplayers in game.  In fact, the only people left playing were the Powerlevellers and the newbies, by and large.  Why?  Because everybody wants rewards for their efforts, and wants it to be carried over.  While I disagree with the whole \"You\'re not allowed to take my character away\" Mentality, I think the statement \"There are those who only wish to Wipe the characters of Others\" is extremely true.  When I look at some of the \"roleplayers\" complaining about powerlevellers, I think to myself, Why do you even care?  They hardly bother you.  Everyone (with a good amount of sense) realises by now that there will be One, if not many major wipes between now and the eventual release.  And yet, does this deter powerlevellers?  No.  Why?  Because we\'re having fun.  Roleplayers enjoy chatting for hours on end, forging friendships, building character.  Powerlevellers enjoy attacking things, conquering things, showing off, challenging other powerlevellers.  Stats and character building are only the end product of this, and if you think thats what is enjoyable about powerlevelling, then you have no idea.  Just ignore them, for christ sakes.  Go out and do your roleplaying thing and forget about them.  For all the things said against powerlevellers, in my mind, 80% of fights on the forums here are started by the other party. (Not nessecarily here, but in general)  Given the game in its current situtation, it is possibly the most Roleplayer friendly mmorpg in existence.  So utilise that, and stop complaining about everyone else.
[/hypocritical rant]

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Yes, well done Karyuu, anybody in here can play the \"You have no life because you waste so much time playing PS\" card.  What have you spent your time doing?  Standing around talking?  Just because someone else spends their time in game actually doing something doesnt mean it\'s anymore wasted then someone who does nothing.

I never said I did nothing ;) I never said I haven\'t enjoyed increasing my skills and stats as well. I never said that I am thankful that I have lost it all and will lose it again. I just know that it is necessary, and I personally think that the argument of \"I have spent this many hours in-game, I am so dedicated, so please reward me,\" is silly. But that\'s just me.

However, there is some expectation of reward for putting in effort and testing now, and not just have the devs wipe at whim.  Im all for there being wipes to fix bugs etc, but I still think an effort should be made to reward players for being in game.

I would think that the relationships and friendships and adventures forged would be reward enough? How would you go about fairly rewarding people, ramlambmoo? If you have suggestions, please share them. I certainly can\'t think of any at this time.

We all saw how the number of players dropped off dramatically when the first wipe was announced.  What was most ironic for me, was that in those final few weeks there were many more Power-levellers, compared to Roleplayers in game.

Indeed, because a lot of roleplayers feared the onslaught of those powerlevelers and newbies who at last let out a joyous \"YAY! COMBAT!\" I know that I\'ve avoided the game for the first week after its release. Not knowing anyone who left because they didn\'t get a \"reward\" for their time, I cannot comment on the rest. The people who were close to me that decided to let PS go found other hobbies and jobs that kept them busy and away. I don\'t deny that many could have left because of the wipe, but I think that it is a silly reason for leaving anyway. For roleplayers especially.

When I look at some of the \"roleplayers\" complaining about powerlevellers, I think to myself, Why do you even care?  They hardly bother you.

Karyuu walks through the tavern doors to the courtyard outside, stretching and yawning freely. Sleepily she makes her way to Hydlaa\'s central plaza, and is immediately faced with a Klyros and Ynnwn in a heated battle, shouting out abtuse numbers and stabbing each other whenever the chance presents itself. Distraught and confused, Karyuu slowly inches away from the pair until the Klyros has slain his opponent and turned to face her, challenging her without any offered reason or show of emotion. \"But I haven\'t done anything to you, birdman,\" she quickly retorts, ire rising, declining his offer. \"I don\'t even know who you are. What is the meaning of this?!\" The Klyros at last made an attempt at a reply: \"lol ur no fun. wuts ur sword lvl?\"

Just another day in Hydlaa, thought Karyuu.

Fun? It can be. Aggravating? Far more often. Breaking RP realism? There is only so much you can ignore. You cannot argue that powerleveling does not harm anyone.

[ramlambmoo]

I never said I did nothing I never said I haven\'t enjoyed increasing my skills and stats as well. I never said that I am thankful that I have lost it all and will lose it again. I just know that it is necessary, and I personally think that the argument of \"I have spent this many hours in-game, I am so dedicated, so please reward me,\" is silly. But that\'s just me.  

Yes, well I differ on the point of rewarding people for being in game.  If I programmed a mmorpg, and someone said \"I\'ve spent this many hours in game testing your game\", well I\'d give them something.  If I had thousands of people alpha testing my game, well I\'d probablly at least give them something virtual in game to reward them, thats the least you can do.  But hey, thats just me.

I would think that the relationships and friendships and adventures forged would be reward enough? How would you go about fairly rewarding people, ramlambmoo? If you have suggestions, please share them. I certainly can\'t think of any at this time.  

I\'d implement a logarithmic scale of reward that transfers your skill and tria over during each wipe.  The transferring would give players a reward for being in game, and the logarithmic part would prevent abuse by Powerlevellers and Bug exploiters.  Actually, thats a pretty damn good idea... I\'m going to go post that in the suggestions forum.

Indeed, because a lot of roleplayers feared the onslaught of those powerlevelers and newbies who at last let out a joyous \"YAY! COMBAT!\" I know that I\'ve avoided the game for the first week after its release. Not knowing anyone who left because they didn\'t get a \"reward\" for their time, I cannot comment on the rest. The people who were close to me that decided to let PS go found other hobbies and jobs that kept them busy and away. I don\'t deny that many could have left because of the wipe, but I think that it is a silly reason for leaving anyway. For roleplayers especially.  

Yes, well I can only comment on what I saw, and that was a marked decrease in the number of Roleplayers (and people in general) online in the weeks and months after the release of CB.  Now, there certaintly weren\'t, as you pointed out, any reasons for roleplayers who didnt care about rewards to leave, which leaves two options: Either Roleplayers and the general Public just got bored with Planeshift, or they did in fact, at some level, care about their characters and stats being transferred.  And I certaintly hope it isnt the first.

Fun? It can be. Aggravating? Far more often. Breaking RP realism? There is only so much you can ignore. You cannot argue that powerleveling does not harm anyone.

Yes, but how often does that happen?  Often enough to make the jump from annoyance to harm?  I think i\'ve been challenged three times since the database wipe.  I wont deny theres a problem, but its a small problem, and, quite frankly, I really dont see how it could get any better- Compare it to some other online games, I think the deal roleplayers have here is pretty sweet, if the worst it comes to is the occasional /ignore and having your Challenge on autodecline.

[Karii_Winterwalker]

Originally posted by Karyuu
Karyuu walks through the tavern doors to the courtyard outside, stretching and yawning freely. Sleepily she makes her way to Hydlaa\'s central plaza, and is immediately faced with a Klyros and Ynnwn in a heated battle, shouting out abtuse numbers and stabbing each other whenever the chance presents itself. Distraught and confused, Karyuu slowly inches away from the pair until the Klyros has slain his opponent and turned to face her, challenging her without any offered reason or show of emotion. \"But I haven\'t done anything to you, birdman,\" she quickly retorts, ire rising, declining his offer. \"I don\'t even know who you are. What is the meaning of this?!\" The Klyros at last made an attempt at a reply: \"lol ur no fun. wuts ur sword lvl?\"

Just another day in Hydlaa, thought Karyuu.

This has got to be the funniest thing I\'ve seen all day. Well done, and I heartily agree with the message. But by the same token, you must realize that the way PS is designed means that it incorporates actual, real game mechanics with roleplaying. When you\'re doing purely text-based roleplaying, you can get stupid things like this:

  \"Darigaan slowly unsheathes his sword. Suddenly, before you can blink, he is behind you, and with a thrust of his blade, knocks you to the floor, leaving you pinned helplessly.\"
  \"[Uhum...what if I have something to say about that? Kalya is faster than Darigaan could hope to be, and yet as she blinks (even though she is alert and watching him intently), he manages to move faster than she could conceive of him doing? I don\'t think so.]\"

You see, everyone has a vision for their character, and everyone wants to be the best. A person\'s imagination has no limits. But game mechanics like those of Planeshift force everyone to live within a set of defined rules. There\'s no \"I kick your sorry butt and there\'s nothing you can do about it.\" You don\'t say, you do. If you can, you can, and if you can\'t, you can\'t, case closed. If you want to be strong, get strong, don\'t just talk about it. For anyone who says that powerleveling has no place in roleplaying, nor is it excused by roleplaying, Verrliit is living proof that you are dead wrong.

What has no place in roleplaying is real-world mentalities, slang, and metagaming (which in this case means talking about \"hit points,\" \"damage points,\" \"damage rating,\" etc, as if anyone can look at a person or object and magically know these mysterious numbers that explain the universe). Carrying those things into the game with you is the very opposite of roleplaying, and the people who do this, together with being pompous and insufferable company, are the ones who have created the stereotype of \"powergaming\" that has so many people infuriated. Not those like Verrliit, who are good company as people, and pleasingly passionate about their roleplaying and their characters. However much you may think them to be \"lifeless losers,\" such people are a boon to the community (and you have no idea what their lives may consist of, anyway). What almighty, divine authority gives anyone the right to judge the way that a person lives his or her life? Clearly, if a person is well-off enough to spend a majority of their time, even in the place of sleep, playing computer games over the internet, then there\'s not much to be worried about, and it is nobody\'s place but ones own to decide what is an adequate and appropriate way of expressing one\'s passions. I think that Verrliit has taken a lot of heat and a lot of insults from many of you that she does not deserve.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Actually, thats a pretty damn good idea... I\'m going to go post that in the suggestions forum.

Well, at least something good came from this thread ;)

[SuburbanPlankton]

As a relative newcomer, it\'s been rather entertaining to read this thread.  I think it\'s great to see so many people being so passionate about a game.

I know, it\'s not just *a game*, it\'s .

But seriously, I can see why people get emotional about their characters.  I\'ve only been playing for a couple of weeks (and sporadically at that); I\'ve only just yesterday advanced from rats to fanatics.  But I\'ve put a fair amount of thought into my character\'s back story and personality.  I haven\'t been online enuough to make much use of it, but even so it will be a bummer to have to \"start over\".  For me it would be easy to start from scratch; I don\'t have that many skills or items to begin with.  But it still is a shame to have \"wasted\" that time I did put in.

I think for a lot of people it is a personal thing: they regret the loss of stats, or items, or the time spent building their character, but they also regret the *loss of the character itself*.  Sure, you can recreate it, but is it the *same* character, or is it a different person with the same name?  It seems like a silly question (since it\'s part of a computer program, and doesn\'t actually *exist*), but I can see where people who spend a lot of time role-playing would get a personal attachment to their characters.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about the difference between \"role players\" and \"power-levelers\", and who belongs to which group.  I think that anyone who was just interested in power-leveling wouldn\'t be taking the time to post in these forums as much as they do.  Sure, there are people playing PS who are \"undesirable\", but I doubt many of them would bother to take the time to come here.  The one thing that everyine here seems to have in common is a genuine concern for the well being of the game; there are just different opinions on the \"correct\" way to go about it.


I really think any problems with the \"undesirable element\" really won\'t start until the game itself is quite a bit more fleshed out.  Right now, there isn\'t all that much to do: relatively few weapons, no massive PvP areas, etc.  If I was just into hacking and slashing and PKing, I would take one look at PS today and say \"this sux! im outta here!\"

Which, in my opinion, is a very good thing.  I just hope the devs can keep the balance such that this will be a desirable place for role-players, and an undesirable one for \"them\".


That\'s the $0.02 from the n00b

[Gentar]

Personally I have to wonder how threads such as these are started in the first place. Why should any player have any right at all to even THINK about arguing when they are taking full advantage of someone elses work. It is completely up to the creators to make descisions and you must realize that have such a first hand experience, They are DEFINITELY going to have better decision making skills on the future of the game that any planeshifter. It is not any players game in the first place; you did not have to purchase it, or dedicate any of your time to its construction, so how could you have a right to complain? This is very comparitive to something as ridiculous as asking your neighbor to repaint his/her house becuase that color does not suit your taste. So I will ask again, why are threads such as these allowed to exist? Is it because Planeshift is so much of a democracy that negativeity should be allowed to raise so much discussion. I find this irritating that this happens so often. So I must stress, PLEASE post constructive critisism and benificial work to the forums. Your voice should be heard, but not if its blatant whining.