could someone explain

[TheMinority]

i shall now state my reply
and this reply will rhyme!
though i\'m not sure why
but, i have the time.

rewarding good RP is hard
for many reasons you see
people could get left out
from all the rewards and glee

so many people
in so many places?
it will be hard to keep track
of all the names and new faces

not only that
but new items too?
a great thing to have
this i know is true

but creating them all
must be hard work
and it\'s even harder
when people act like jerks

and demand new things
oh demands are tough!
i don\'t know how you devs
get through all that stuff

but one thing\'s for sure
the RPers could use a lift
to add some wings
to our game of planeshift



...okay, so it\'s a little incoherent and stuff... not really what i had intended to say at all... i can\'t think when i write poetry.

but dagnabbit! it rhymes! and i haven\'t spammed something of this quality in ages, so *post!!*

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Verrliit
You can call Tell a whisper all you want to, but it is functionally equivalent to a multiline cellphone, and is pretty universally used as such...

Actually, /tells are not universally accepted as RP, and I frankly have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Wishing it to be so and saying so doesn\'t make it so.

All channels of communication are about the same level of IC to OOC, because that is what players do, it matters little which channel it is, they are speaking to one another.

Agreed, but roleplay in PlaneShift has to function a certain a way... If you are /telling your roleplay with an individual who is in a diferent city, your roleplay has very little basis unless you\'re using telepathic characters. I\'m sure you are aware of the problems.

Tells tend, if anything, to be more RP than any other chat, because if something is important, or private, and you are too distant to group, or your target is already grouped, you use tell to say it, and that will come up more often with RP than otherwise.

For someone who is so into roleplay in general, you seem to have a rather odd idea of how it works here... :) You do know that it is acting out a role, and having your character(s) act pretty much as they would act in our world (mix in the craziness, magic, yadda yadda). You don\'t quite go on talking to people through invisible means here, and neither should characters in PlaneShift - because it\'s not realistic. It\'s one version of RP, granted, but it is not, and should not be the default. Roleplay should be visible to everyone, not just the individual(s) you are involved with - if someone walks into the tavern and you are speaking to another person without whispers, they should hear what you have to say. If you are slaying monsters, you should have a difficulty breaking concentration to something else, such as conversation. This is roleplay, not juggling five or more separate /tells with your character.

The most common tell, next to \"Crap, the lag got me killed again. I\'m gonna go train.\" is probably, \"Hi, I\'m back.  What news?\" or \"Hi, welcome back, this is the news\".

And completely OOC, as well.

The social positions that help define those characters, who are the leaders of the playing community, almost always involves having extreme leveling, which commands respect, and attracts attention.

Actually I\'ve happened to notice that good roleplay alone will command a ton more respect and draw far more attention than \"physical\" power.

Almost all of those who are leaders and storytellers have no choice whatsoever.  They have to be past that point, to be unusual, to attract attention, to be respected and to have authority.

Authority does not come from your stats.

It is no accident, but hard-driven effort, that placed almost every one of the most deadly weapons in the hands of these leaders.  Other players instinctively respect those who worked so hard to obtain them.

Hardly. They are so common nowadays that they are given away. Perhaps in the beginning they were sigils of awe to those that knew where such weapons came from (the tougher creatures of slaying), but having such and such object, or knowing so-and-so who does, does not raise the respect-o-meter for a lot of people.

So all of these storytellers, who are the source of the RP in PS, put their stories on hold and stopped doing almost any RP.

...Um? The source of RP in PS? As if the task is on their shoulders alone :) You started out in a decent respectful manner, but this was a crack in your post. I assure you that far more RP exists than that which you are familiar with. Maybe you should explore the world outside of /tells.

That point of equilibrium, where the average player started looking for something else besides leveling to do, was not reached for a very long time.  Now that it finally has been, the RP is beginning to resume.

Hardly! RP has always been going on, no matter the wipe, no matter the crashes, no matter the pauses and breaks and bugs and errors. You make it sound as if the wipe absolutely killed roleplay in PlaneShift completely - and while this is indeed the intention of your post, you couldn\'t possibly be more wrong.

[Verrliit]

Stfrn.

Status report:

The world system as a whole, has reached equilibrium, and most PLing has ceased.

As of the last week or three, normal RP is resuming, and has passed the point of potential die-off of ongoing stories.

More things can be introduced at any time, with the proviso that anything to do with combat should be brought to balance within less than three weeks, to minimise impact of the resulting arms race upon RP.

And the lag is the single largest complaint, at present.


Clarification:

As long as combat and leveling of anything is included in the game, then there will be competition.  To call that power-levelling and then say it is undesirable, is wrong.  

Competition is inevitable, and necessary. To encourage RP, you can\'t remove PLing.  You have put in weapons and monsters and an Arena.  Your world is not made of fuzzy bunnies, but warlords and duellists.  It is a central structure. Don\'t damage that, design around it.

Instead of trying to cripple what has to be included, focus on the enrichment of the environment.

You want more RP?

Make it easier to talk:  Give us cut and paste, and a LOT more shortcut buttons.  Add vertical distance to the chat radius, so that people chatting on different floors don\'t hear each other easily.

Give us more material to RP with: More professions and Items and skills.

Give us more of the natural gathering places, where people tend to stop and talk:  Put a fire in the darkness of one of the tents in Oja, and people will gather there.  Darken the inside of the Oja Cafe, and fix sitting down. Put water in the fountains.

Implement day and night, and make campfires possible.

These will do much more for RP, than playing with the metrics of the combat and looting systems ever will.


Conclusion:

There is no discouragement of RP in PS.
There is only a lack of tools and materials.


Postscript:

I promise you, Stfrn, that if there is another full wipe, without migration for all, that you will lose at least half of the best and brightest performers in the world of PS.  You may not be satisfied with my explanation of the reasons why, but rest assured that it is so.

The world you have made is a circus tent, with props and gear inside.  The players that have talent, perform.  The rest stay to watch the show.

There are at least thirty names that I could name that I know personally as creators of the RP in the world of PS.

I will speak of four.

Lady Agara is matchmaker, for guilds and romance.  The other players bring her golden swords to use as tokens of marriage, since we have nothing else.

Bodacher and Ganinos play tricks and tell stories, drink gallons of ale, act as game wardens to the wilderness, and many things besides.

I say wise things, philosophy and poetry, point out the obvious but unnoticed, read minds, tell fortunes, and scare the bejeebers out of those that need it most.

Hundreds of players know us, we have helped them on their way, and we are part of their stories and their world.

All four of us almost left.  And if we had, many more that do as we do, and those that follow them, would have left with us, like guests at a party that has come to an end.

We are grateful for the effort that built the tent, the skill that made it beautiful, and most of all that we get to play inside. But no one returns to look at the tent.  Without us and those like us....

Noob:  So what do you do here?
GM:  Kill stuff, loot it, sell, train, buy weapons, repeat.
Noob:  Is that all?
GM:  Make stuff up yourself if you want.  RP.
Noob:  Are you making fun of me?
GM:  No, it\'s a pre-alpha demo, not a game.


Post Postscript

Karyuu.

I report what I see, in-game.

I speak of what moves me, makes me passionate, and does the same for others around me.

I describe my experience and observation of what is, and how it is used, in PS RP.

I say what I think should be, what will help me, and those that play around me.

If you do not like to use tells the way I do, or RP the way I do, then don\'t.  Play your way, with whoever you can get to voluntarily cripple their communications, all you want.

But do not tell me I do not know how RP works in PS, or that I am foolish somehow, or disrespectful in some mysterious way, just because I, and all I have encountered in PS, do not play your style of RP with you.

I think that logging 830 hours since the wipe, with my chat window in All when not grouped, and a buddy list with around 100 names gives me the credentials to speak.

Regardless, PS is a large place, and there should be room for all.  Even those that think communication over distance is out of place in a world with magic.

And I never have cracks in my posts unless they are wise ones, Karyuu...  



Sincerely,

The Dark Lady
Verrliit

[Pip]

Well said Lady Verrliit, there are plenty of us who think as you.

[zabeal]

Well, I have not had much time to be in planeshift recently, and I too try to mix senseless slaughter with roleplay... but tells do not cut it. I\'ve tried to talk to you a few times in the arena Lady Verrliit, and you seemed to be in anouther world. Perhaps you were busy each time, but since we can only report what we see, myself, and newcomers to the game will see you as not a roleplayer. If you are proud of your actions you should let them be known

[Seytra]

Verrliit, your way to \"RP\" is by far not a good one, and most definitely not something that should be more than a rare exception.
There is absolutely no justification to use /tell in RP unless
- you are telepathic, which is not nearly the default
- you are whispering, and even this is not good RP because in a real whisper one could be overheared, so it must be \"/me whispers to XYZ: \"text\"\"
- you have another means of distant communications. I have something like this with three other chars, and even these means aren\'t a cellphone replacement.

What you are doing is not using the tools you were given, you are ignoring them. What you call \"RP\" is only half-hearted, because it bypasses almost the entire world and is in fact no different than RP in IRC.

/tell is always OOC, save the few caveats I mentioned. Still I put my /tell OOC-ness in brackets so there will never be any misunderstanding if I /tell someone whom I could also /tell IC-ly.

/groups are justified for RP only when there is a lot of movement involved that makes /say not feasible due to the distance limit and the hard to precisely control movement that IRL would not happen.

Also, I must tell you that high stats do by far not generate respect with me. Why? Because I 1) know how they were attained: by completely OOC PLing, because otherwise there is no way to get them as fast save cheating and 2) stats are supplemental to RP, not defining. It is ridiculously easy to play an overpowered char, as it takes only very little skill in RP. Those whom I have learned to value as RPers have not demi-god chars, but chars with flaws and a realistic skillset, both in terms of number and levels of skills. They are who lead and shape RP, and it is completely independant on numbers and stats.

Yes, after the wipe, the few stats that are of some importance in my RP are off what they are supposed to and what I RP them to be. Yet I  have been levelling only when there was no RP going on. Yes, I did not like losing the in my case actually hard earned stats, but RP went on seamlessly.

In fact, I avoid people whom I have seen PL more than just a bit, because chances are good they aren\'t goor RPers anyway. Likewise, I shun people with names that are not pristine, for the same reason. This also applies to guild names, whether the char is leader or not of the guild. Same reasons. Likewise, I shun the places where only OOC and PL will likely be encountered, like the plaza, the arena and the places with MOBs that drop good and thus are camped all the time.

Yes, the newbies will \"admire\" you for your super stats and items, but they do it because they think that it actually matters, because they likely never played a true RPG. They have been deranged by the MMO\"RP\"Gs that sell PL for RP.

Furthermore, having a lot of people on your buddylist does not serve to prove you a good RPer. It may prove you are liked, but this may very well be OOC. Likewise having a lot of online hours tells nothing ybout your RP\'s quality or even quantity. I have seen more than just a few people who were constantly idling. They must have logged ridiculous amounts of online hours, yet I would never even think of accepting that as measure of RP in any way. If anything, it is detrimental to my respect towards these people, because this sort of idling is abuse of the game and abusing is even more OOC. You are already quoting numbers and demand to be respected due to these, yet these numbers are devoid of meaning.

Yes, PL has almost ceased because the PLs have maxed out all stats and skills by now. Does that mean they are somehow necessary for RP? Definitely not. I have RP\'d quite a deal without involvement of any PL. In fact, I have RP\'d completely without \"support\" of any PL.

Originally posted by Verrliit
As long as combat and leveling of anything is included in the game, then there will be competition. To call that power-levelling and then say it is undesirable, is wrong.

Absolutely not. There is a quite distinct difference between healthy competition and PL. The fighting system is there to define a char, yes. But only as far as the char realistically would cimpete in the game world. And this realistic limit is, more often than not, exceeded several times by any PL. That is OOC competition for the highest numbers, not IC competition for a good life.

Originally posted by Verrliit
Competition is inevitable, and necessary. To encourage RP, you can\'t remove PLing. You have put in weapons and monsters and an Arena. Your world is not made of fuzzy bunnies, but warlords and duellists. It is a central structure. Don\'t damage that, design around it.

Most definitely not. The so called \"Warlords\" are nothing honourable, nothing desirable and most of all nothing respectable. They are merely players who take enjoyment in superceding others in numbers that would never show up IC. The duellists are the exact same, just more blatantly obviously OOC.
The fighting and duelling system is abused 99% of the time for completely OOC purposes.

Originally posted by Verrliit
Instead of trying to cripple what has to be included, focus on the enrichment of the environment.

What you call \"crippling\" is in fact a necessary readjustment to prune the excessive abuse of the system.

However, I even agree with you on a few points:
- when one wishes to RP, one must make the RP oneself.
- there is little implemented that can actually be used as is to support RP.

Both are obvious and by far not new to me. But with some imagination they can be overcome reasonably easily. But the few things that actually work and can be used as is, like \"physical\" presence and proximity of the chars, you ignore.

[r.guppy]

My turn to take a bashing here and take the heat of lady verrliit, i think we all miss a few points here i have my way of doing things you have yours but at end of day i am left with the impression it is your way or go...
 Well i for one wont go i am learning how to do this and i have found lady Verrliit to be most helpful, even grumpy old Gholmyrr has tout me a thing or two about role play, we may not see eye to eye but i like him.

 I am happy to learn from players who have the patience to help , but like most people do not like to be told to do it or leave, to me you are quick to condemn but no leeway is given by you ,that is how you come over to me and sorry but no go. i am 49 years old served my country and killed for them, i had a position of rank in the British army but was respected not for my rank but as a person.

 So i ask you not to be so sharp with your tongs and try to give a little it goes a long way believe me.

 On another note if it was not for the PL how would test the game fully, as i feel you have lost sight of the fact that we are here to help test the game.

[SuburbanPlankton]

I read this thread a couple of hours ago, and was about to post in reply to Verrlitt, to say that though I had seen her in-game a number of times, I had never seen her doing anything which would be obvious to another as role-playing.  
After considering for a while, I decided not to post, and loaded up the game instead.

I started up in the tavern in the middle of a gathering there, and spent the next couple of hours actively role-playing with Verrlitt, and a number of others.

I guess my point is, none of us are together often enough to know what anyone else\'s playing style is; all we can do is assume from the limited amount that we see for ourselves.

Verrlitt, please accept my apology for my incorrect (though unspoken) assumption.

[Karyuu]

Frankly, the excuse of \"testing\" the game is used far too often. CB has been open to the public for so long (and tested numerous times privately) that previously unknown bugs are very rare. Powerleveling is also not the same as testing, although both are completely OOC.

In the end, I think Seytra\'s point about /tells summarizes my views as well: it is no different from roleplaying on IRC, and in PlaneShift, it is not roleplay. Of course you have the complete freedom to do as you wish, but when something else is clearly the default, accepted, and worked-towards way to do something, trying to justify \"roleplay /tells\" seems like having two separate games running and trying to combine them both when completely different things are going on at the same time.

What Verliit was doing in one of the examples she gave was fighting a monster and juggling five different conversations at once, no doubt with people that were nowhere near her. How is this realistic roleplay? You tell me.

I have no doubts that Verliit (and others) are extremely helpful, kind, and inspiring people, as many have pointed out here. But it doesn\'t mean that everything such people do should be exalted, or acceptable.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by r.guppy
My turn to take a bashing here and take the heat of lady verrliit, i think we all miss a few points here i have my way of doing things you have yours but at end of day i am left with the impression it is your way or go...
 Well i for one wont go i am learning how to do this and i have found lady Verrliit to be most helpful, even grumpy old Gholmyrr has tout me a thing or two about role play, we may not see eye to eye but i like him.

You say you try to learn how to RP, yet you don\'t care if what you are told is good or even universally accepted? Also, it is not just my way. It is the only way that is appropriate. Seriously, as Karyuu said, what she (Verrliit) is doing is playing two separete games:
Game 1 is an IRC RP and game 2 is a hack&slash game. However, in doing so she is degrading PS to something it is not. It\'s nieither a graphical chatroom nor is it hack&slash, or even centered on fighting (though due to the limited implementation it may look differently ATM).

Originally posted by r.guppy
I am happy to learn from players who have the patience to help , but like most people do not like to be told to do it or leave, to me you are quick to condemn but no leeway is given by you ,that is how you come over to me and sorry but no go. i am 49 years old served my country and killed for them, i had a position of rank in the British army but was respected not for my rank but as a person.

You see, the internet is not the real world. What counts here is not what you did IRL. Noone can prove or disprove that, anyway, apart from the fact that people may very well not approve of killing under whatever circumstances. You can be the ex president of America (Or even Bush, though that would show), or the queen, it wouldn\'t matter. (Also, postcount or forum age does not matter). Thus, I\'ll give the \"sorry but no go\" back to you.

Instead what counts is what you do here. And if you insist on having things your way while that way clearly isn\'t the way things are meant to be done, then that will be bad.

This is the same as being respected as person not by rank, and thus I don\'t see why you brought these RL things up at all.

Originally posted by r.guppy
 So i ask you not to be so sharp with your tongs and try to give a little it goes a long way believe me.

I have had this \"PL is RP\" discussion so many times already it does get sickening. Furthermore, I don\'t think I have been terribly harsh in my posts, anyway. Not overly friendly, yes, but not overly harsh, either. (Though my initial one on this thread was, in retrospect, since you came accross as mere PL who insists on being listed.) Furthermore, what am I supposed to give? My opinion stands, and I have reasons to back it up. Good reasons for all I can see. How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.

Originally posted by r.guppy
 On another note if it was not for the PL how would test the game fully, as i feel you have lost sight of the fact that we are here to help test the game.

That is what the GMs are for. They can set their own stats and thus test this sort of thing. The players are play-testing, and as such are expected to go the way the game is intended to be played. Furthermore, even with non PL, there will within reasonable time be people testing the upper end of things, so PL really is not even of benefit to testing.

[Pip]

Originally posted by Seytra
I have had this \"PL is RP\" discussion so many times already it does get sickening. Furthermore, I don\'t think I have been terribly harsh in my posts, anyway. Not overly friendly, yes, but not overly harsh, either. (Though my initial one on this thread was, in retrospect, since you came accross as mere PL who insists on being listed.) Furthermore, what am I supposed to give? My opinion stands, and I have reasons to back it up. Good reasons for all I can see. How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.

Your opinion is not always necessary especially when it is to flame someone for asking a question and then proceed to get on your hobbyhorse. You may be right about the strict rules for roleplay but you don\'t have to ram it down everyone\'s throats. You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.

At the end of the day this is just a game, why is it so important that everyone plays the same way? We play to enjoy ourselves and if we are knocked because our play does not match up to another\'s ideals then that just spoils our enjoyment. Do we get in the way of your fun??

[Karyuu]

Pip, take a breather. Seytra wasn\'t \"ramming\" anything down anyone\'s throat in any of his posts here. He never flamed, he never lied. Please calm down.

PlaneShift is just a game, but it is a game with many people involved, and a community that works a certain way (and has been working a certain way ever since it was born). It\'s just something to take into consideration, and perhaps adapt to. None of the comments or suggestions here, from people that prefer open RP as opposed to /tells, are without reason, purpose, good intent, and ease of adaptation.

[Pip]

Karyuu, if you read the quote in my post you will see that I am not accusing Seytra of lying.

I am all in favour of open roleplay but how is roleplay in /tell hurting anyone else. Why not allow those who want to play that way to just get on with it?

In this situation a softly softly approach of lead by example would be much more beneficial that continuing an argument that noone can win.

[r.guppy]

both you and i read her post wrong (pip).

 I am here husband and i just spook to here she was referring to quote of Seytra not calling here a lier.

 my point on my real life was to be blunt respect is one from others not go with tittle.

[Karyuu]

You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.

Then what was this all about?

Roleplay in /tell isn\'t hurting those who participate in it, Pip, but it\'s not the default way to roleplay. And if no one sees any roleplay going on, then it\'s hard to just jump in, right? :)

Besides, roleplay is supposed to be more or less realistic, and again, /tells have no IC realism in PlaneShift besides whispers, magic, etc.