could someone explain

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Verrliit
Seytra,

I am not fighting with you.

You have tried to attack me, in every way you could think of.  You have attempted to turn the exchange between us into an argument over what the design goals are, or should be.  You have placed me on trial, as character, player and person.

Be sure that I by far did not attack you by all means I can think of, only by those that seemed justified. Be also sure that I did not try to argue about what the design goals are or should be, because to me there is no need to argue about them at all: they are perfectly clear to me.
Yes, I turned this into an argument, because an argument is what a discussion is. But it is an argument on how PS is to be used or not to be used. And it so happens that I almost fully disagree with the way that you state as being acceptable and done by you.

Originally posted by Verrliit
I have been respectful and courteous, throughout.

I even tried to be playful with you, but you have angrily responded that fun is not allowed here, and you would have none of it.

A discussion is not RP, neither is it a play. It is there to exchange views and clarify things, if possible reach a consensus, not to obfuscate things by making statements one doesn\'t agree with. To back things up with reasons why the own arguments are valid, and to disprove the other\'s arguments if they seem invalid to one. I am not playing games in discussions, as they are dead serious business. And yes, I will have none of that \"being playful\" and \"fun\". If you must make fun of (parts of) the discussion, you need to state it as such so that it won\'t be mistaken for a contribution.

I have not seen you backing up your statements, neither have you tried to disprove mine. All I have seen you do is saying \"I am right no matter what\" and \"I am not bad regardless of what you say or claim.\".

Originally posted by Verrliit
No insult you hurl at me, no accusation of wrongdoing, no amount of putting words in my mouth and then flaming me for them, not even comparing me to the banned Zanzibar/Shalmaneser, will make me look bad or foolish.

I still see no insult I have used against you, save my statement of you being superstitious, which is something that I think is true (otherwise I wouldn\'t have stated it, obviously). Yes, I have accused you of doing wrong, and I stand by that. Also, I have never flamed you, that would have looked very different. I also did not put words in your mouth. What I however did was take what your statements clearly (at least to me) implied as tatements of their own. If you do not mean to say what your statements imply, then you need to make sure that your statements are clear and don\'t imply unintended thnings, or at least clarify the misimplication at the first possible occasion. None of that should be no problem for you, judging by how well you can use rhetorics. Also, without these implications, I see only very few actually relevant content in your posts.

Originally posted by Verrliit
However loudly you proclaim how things are supposed to be, it will not make me wrong.

Then why don\'t you bring on support that clearly proves that you are right? Or that things aren\'t supposed to be like what I think they are supposed to be? Or how the fact that things aren\'t like they are supposed to be justifies ignoring how they are supposed to be and carrying on keeping them the way they are and not how they are supposed to be?
Unless you strive to move things closer to what they are supposed to be, you are part of the problem and one of the reasons why things aren\'t as they are supposed to be.

Originally posted by Verrliit
I don\'t need you to agree with me.  If you don\'t like me, I am sorry, but not hurt.

Be sure that I am not trying to hurt you. I am trying to get you to see the problems with what you do. But I obviously failed miserably. So in the end we seem to reach one consensus: this discussion is futile, a complete waste of a lot of time.

Originally posted by Verrliit
I have no need to insult you, or to say things to make you look foolish and mean, Seytra.

And I have not done so.

Well, compared to your self-proclaimed lack of need for that, you are doing quite a lot of it, judging by what you refer to as insult when coming from me. :rolleyes: The difference is that you phrase it in a patronizing (or possibly \"playful\" ) way and most often by implication (Like \"I have no need to (...) say things to make you look foolish and mean.\" ).

Originally posted by Verrliit
I hope you understand that.

Obviously I don\'t, and likely never will.

Edit: edited out smileys erroneously added by the forum software

[r.guppy]

I am totally absorbed in the debate you two are having; it reminds me so much of my Mum and Big Sister, who would go on like this from moment of meeting until they kissed goodbye. (wipes tear from eye as I fondly remembers my Mum who has passed on)

  You two are different sides to a coin, and have passion in what you say, and will never see the others point of view, I ask you both to step back and try to see the others point, I do not expect you to agree, but just try to see through the eyes of each other for a moment.

 It may help to understand your passions are the same, your goals are the same, just different in the way you go about it; as I see it, you both want the best for this game, just have a different ways of going about it.

[Verrliit]

Seytra,

The rest of us, in this thread, discuss and explore what might be done to have more fun in PS.  We also enjoy each other\'s company, and we do what makes sense to us.

That is the point of most of the threads in the forum.

You give us orders.  You tell us we can only play your way, and no other.  You tell us that if you decide we are \"PLing\", you will not tolerate us.  You threaten.

No amount of name-calling, jumping up and down, giving orders and bullying will force others to agree with you.

You have to make sense to them for that to happen.

In the final analysis, the players of PS will play the way they think is best.  They will play the way they have the most fun.

Your opinion of whether what they do is right or wrong, is completely unimportant.

The only way you can get people to play the way you want, is if you make it more fun than any other way.

Good luck with that.


V.

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Oh, and I\'m only banned until tuesday Verr.... so see you then :-D

Does this mean you were not supposed to be playing those alts while banned?

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Verrliit

Originally posted by zanzibar
Oh, and I\'m only banned until tuesday Verr.... so see you then :-D

Does this mean you were not supposed to be playing those alts while banned?

I\'m \"allowed\" to start other accounts, and I think I know the incidents you\'re refering to.  Honestly, I was around, but if we\'re thinking of the same people, they weren\'t me.  I think I talked to you once in game using an alt, but straight up that was it.  There\'s a lot of organization....

To be honest, I don\'t understand why you turned into such a crabby-pants.  When you were new, I took you in and gave you a shot at jumping into the RP-spirit of things straight away.  Then you turned that around on me, and used me as a stepping stone to gain advantage in other areas of the community.  All in all I\'m tempted to have a image of you as a fickle person, but I\'m trying hard to give you the benifet of the doubt and say that it was all in-character, and you just let RP bleed into RL/OOC conversations.  I\'m guilty of the same thing from time to time.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Verrliit
You give us orders.  You tell us we can only play your way, and no other.  You tell us that if you decide we are \"PLing\", you will not tolerate us.  You threaten.

May I ask how I threaten anyone in here? Seriously, how can I threaten when I have no power whatsoever? How, if you don\'t care about what I think, and you also don\'t need me to agree with you, as you also stated, can me saying that I do not accept your behaviour be a threat to you? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Verrliit
No amount of name-calling, jumping up and down, giving orders and bullying will force others to agree with you.

You see, I am not calling anyone names. Nor am I jumping up and down, or bullying anyone. And I am hardly in the position to give orders. I find it interesting how you increasingly accuse me of these things while not backing up your own points at all.

Originally posted by Verrliit
You have to make sense to them for that to happen.

In the final analysis, the players of PS will play the way they think is best.  They will play the way they have the most fun.

Yes yes, they will. Just like in the tennis match it is perfectly acceptable to play soccer, \"because that is most fun to the soccer player\". As I have said, any game has rules, and the rules are there to maximize the enjoyment of everybody, not the enjoyment of a few. And this is exactly where you come in: to you, not adhering to the rules (which do make perfect sense to me and many others, by the way, in case you didn\'t read their posts), may be more fun than playing properly. However, in doing so, you decrease the fun of others, so this is why it cannot be tolerated.
It\'s really the same as with cheaters or exploiters: they break the game for everyone else, obviously having more fun doing so then not doing so, for whatever sad reasons. Nontheless, it is not tolerable. I seriously don\'t get how this can possibly not be understood by anyone. Why would PS, just because it it an online / computer game, not have rules to be adhered to while every other game (cards, chess, soccer, etc.) does?
Yes, there is no written explicit rule against /tell \"RPG\". However, there is the whole realism thing. And as has been beaten to death, /tell \"RP\" is by no means realistic, so that\'s the rule that applies and that you are violating in the selfish pursuit of maximised fun. :tdown:

Originally posted by Verrliit
Your opinion of whether what they do is right or wrong, is completely unimportant.

Obviously, it has to be to you, because you have no argument to counter mine. But you see, likewise, what you think is comparatively unimportant. In fact, by replying to you, I have given you way more attention than you deserve. I should have ignored you, and this is what I will be doing from now on.

Originally posted by Verrliit
The only way you can get people to play the way you want, is if you make it more fun than any other way.

If they are breaking rules, there are other ways that must be used, and I think those with the power to should enforce them. I know that they won\'t, but that doesn\'t make it better. It just lets you get away with it.

I find it notable that even zanzibar has issues with you. Different ones, but nontheless issues, while he himself is infinitely more \"open minded\" (if you will so) towards these things. Though maybe he spoilt you, I wouldn\'t know.

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by Seytra
You see, I am not calling anyone names. Nor am I jumping up and down, or bullying anyone.

Really? Oh, that\'s right, you only said it \"sounded\" like I cheated, and abused things, was superstitious and broke rules, etc, etc.  That would be some kind of not calling names that I am unfamiliar with, I guess.

Originally posted by Seytra
Be sure that I by far did not attack you by all means I can think of, only by those that seemed justified.

You have worked very hard to make it seem that attacking me was justified.

Originally posted by Seytra
And I am hardly in the position to give orders.

Obviously you do not let that stop you from trying.

Originally posted by Seytra
I find it interesting how you increasingly accuse me of these things while not backing up your own points at all.

You attacked me.  You were increasingly insulting.  I have no need to argue these points.  They not in doubt. Your attacks and insults are here.  I do not need to repeat them again.

Originally posted by Seytra
I am not playing games in discussions, as they are dead serious business. And yes, I will have none of that \"being playful\" and \"fun\".

Then you are doomed to unhappiness, Seytra.  Because being playful and having fun, is the whole point of PS.  And the players that post here, will sometimes be playful and have fun, whether you are having any of it, or not.

Originally posted by Seytra
I should have ignored you, and this is what I will be doing from now on.

You are absolutely right.  Attacking me was a very bad idea, and it did not go at all well.


Verrliit.

[Moogie]

I see we\'re all done playing nicely here. Good show, then.