help my guild is no more

[Karyuu]

I don\'t see how it encourages massrecruiting, myself. I mean people aren\'t likely to agree to \"Hey, I\'m just starting a guild and I really need members, badly. Want to join?\" without any other information. And if other information is there, to be shared, then it\'s not mass recruiting, it\'s the beginning of what is hopefully a roleplay session and the explanation of the soon-to-be-created guild. And if some newbies do agree to that former statement with no other input, how long will such a guild survive? I\'ll give them a week, tops.

Seems like a fine system to me.

[fken]

pffff I hate the peanut guys who thought it was interesting to  apply shortcut with backspace button... I just lost everything i wrote...

So to sum up :

I already saw a lot of mass recruiting issues since MB So it wont change anything just accelerate the thing.

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@Moogie : the game isnt big enough to apply this kind of rules... it seems to be bad pride in my mind... The game isnt big enough to interest a normal newbee more than 1week so it\'s really not the time to invent this kind of rules : there are a lot of more useful things to do before.

---

@hitancrias : i said I aggree with you but I must precise one thing : if finding a good member is hard finding a good french (or german or dutch or indian or russian and so one) members is harder.

French isnt the good example to explain what you wanna say : french timezones are very dispatched : Canada, Belgium/France/etc, African countries, pacific and atlantic islands are french speakers places.

Moreover I liked others players. Speaking with players from France isnt very interesting for my culture but playing with people with other culture or language interest me. That\'s why I cant play very longer to a french mmorpg... it become annoying : nothing to learn. But I respect the rules of the developpers and then creating a guild require my entire control over the guild because I was responsible of my members... I thought its dangerous to create an international guild because I wouldnt be able to control everything especially in the forum...
-> Edhelgarth was designed for french speakers.

NB : I was happy to see one day an australian who spoke a very good french and wanted to recruit him. I had a Canadien member and I was proud of it.

EDIT : I only had the feeling that developpers listened to players once: with the mushroom spawn for the old mb players. I am very respectful of their job and dont want to be too rude: it was just my feeling.

[Valbrandr]

Well before this thread is closed.. even though it has stayed on topic about Janner\'s guild being disband because of the new rules and a discussion of the new rules... I would like to say my peace.

I have never spoke out against any Dev... and I highly respect them for what they do. But I do not agree with what happened this time around.  I believe that the new rules are unfair, and decriminate against small, effeiceint guilds (wish I could spell).  5 is such an arbitrary number... and not to mention the 20k you would have to come up with.  I understand it is easy to get now... but what about later?  And who can raise the 20k easier a guild of 5 or a guild of 50?  This does encourage mass recruiting.  It seems most MMORPGs start out with good intentions focusing on role playing... but as more people flock to the game it gets diluted.. and becomes something that is unrecognizable to someone who was an original member.  This just seems like the first step of that process.  

But that to me is not the biggest issue here.  I wish there would have been a sticky made by Talad or Acraig posting these new changes and seeing how people felt about it.  I know Karyuu said it was discussed in the IRC channel.. but I get bored of sitting around there when people are either not talking or are just BSing with one another.  Im sure after this is posted someone will say \"This is the Devs game and they will do what they want.\"  And to an extent that is true.  But dont forget about the people you are so kindly making it for.  We are here to be apart of the process of making PS a successful MMORPG.  We are a Community.... which seems to be a word long forgotten by too many around here.  

This is the reason I stay.  I feel as if I am apart of something special here.. I assume most people who decide to stay feel the same.  I will see PS through until it is finished atleast... most likely I will never leave as long as my good friends stay as well.  But I hate to say this believe me I do, dont take us for granted... We would never do that to you and sorry if you feel that way at times.  We are all in this together unless it is me that is misinformed.  I want to help... any way that I can... and I know many others willing but we dont have those certain talents to be a Dev ourselves.  So we try to help by giving feedback and anything else that we can.  Obviously many of us care enough to be here and to return after times of absence.  Im going to stop there for now... I hope as many people as possible get to view this and post their thoughts... thx

[Karyuu]

A very nice post, Valbrandr :) Except I would like to commend on one thing:

Originally posted by Valbrandr
And who can raise the 20k easier a guild of 5 or a guild of 50?  This does encourage mass recruiting.

But there is an element of required conversation that was missing earlier with free guild-invites. Now people have to talk to one another to share guild ideas and search for potential members. It is no longer \"Woah! Random guild invite... What is this about? Hm, no idea. Let\'s click Accept!\" If someone manages to recruit fifty members with this new guild system without having a pretty organized guild, without a decent story and overall description, I am going to be mightily surprised. If this occurs, I would really like to be informed of it.

All this means is that people will no longer create guilds on the spot, and if they do, they will either fail right there and then or within a few days. A week will have to be spent creating a guild, or a few weeks, or an entire month, as it should be. It is no longer a matter to be taken lightly.

Also, to those that believe the Devs do not listen to the playerbase: there are many players who agree with these rules, wholeheartedly. So certainly the dev team isn\'t out on a let\'s-make-everyone-unhappy rampage. I think it is now widely known that the five-minute time period isn\'t enough, and this may be adjusted. The price isn\'t likely to fall, since the original suggestion has actually been 100k. Let\'s consider ourselves lucky ;) The playerbase isn\'t ignored if the arguments made are solid, and some of them are. But if you do not get your way, if something changes for what you think is the worse, I think it\'s folly to believe that you are being ignored by the dev team.

[Valbrandr]

I seen you posted Karyuu and I thought that I was done for , hehe..

I dont believe that the Devs ignore us or dont listen in one way or another.  However, at times, it seems that they go to far to change the system.  For instance, when we were discussing names being changed... and it became a heated arguement then it came out that the rules had changed and had become more lax.  But that is not what many of us wanted... well let me speak for myself I guess.. It is not what I wanted.  Just to know that the current rules were not abused by a GMs personnal preferences.  

And at first, I thought \"You know, these rules are okay and they can help.\" But that soon changed... I kept thinking about it and I started to dislike it more and more, and I was talking with my friends who did not agree either and then fken disbands his guild... in which the main reason he stated was because of this incident.  Yes this new system means that people cant just create a guild because they just feel the need or think of a cool name which is a very good thing.  But with those type of requirements, not that they are extremely harsh, and coupled with the way it was integrated... In my mind it was good intentions but wrong implementation.

Not sure about the mass recruiting tactic of invite on site... but I do know of other ways that guilds can become quite large just so that they have the largest guild... Like each member creating 4 alts so instead of having 70 members they have close to 280.  But truthfully I have noticed in game that many people dont care.  Cool guild name, maybe, if you get to that part, they just like the alignment, or whatever and they join to be apart of something.  It does happen... it is very tough to rack up guild members if some do not join for those reasons.  But there are legitimate larger guilds out there.

Edit:  You seem to change your siggy as much as your hair

[Karyuu]

@edit: I can\'t stick to the same graphic for too long :D

About the name change: It appeared that even though many people were arguing for the strict rules, there were too many complaints to ignore. Frankly I disagree with Vengeance on his decision to loosen the rules up, and I will continue to argue for the previous rules, so that names such as \"Goblin\" do not go unchanged, as they have been left alone now. But it just goes to show that no one\'s opinion or argument is being left unheard. It is very hard to please all sides at once, so I hope that constant adjustments will be made until all the many parties of an argument will reach a compromise.

But with those type of requirements, not that they are extremely harsh, and coupled with the way it was integrated... In my mind it was good intentions but wrong implementation.

Acraig posted that they will try to give better warnings when something this drastic is going to be changed to the system :) I think that is the only thing people really disliked, and of course the five-minute rule. It really does make it hard for players from different time zones to get together, that much is definite. I think twenty-four hours is insane, one hour maybe enough, but nowhere more than six.

Other than that, I think I\'m done with the argument ;)

[Pestilence]

24 hours crazy? Why? I mean we are talking different timezones and people sleep for 8 hours. I agree perhaps 10 hours is enough but I don\'t think people are going to create the guild over and over again each day for 20,000. I mean I haven\'t seen any loot you can sell for that much in one time and I have been told the loot will be made less extravagant before the wipe and without uberweapons there will be many very hard to kill that give high loot aswell.

The prize of creating the guild should get rid of the newbie guild not the time.

Anyhow how do you need to have a story now? You create the guild with a friend and you massinvite hoping 3 will say yes before your time is up and after that one continues to get as far away from the border as possible to lets say 20 so you don\'t have to worry about a few leaving when they don\'t like the guild afterall.

Many beginning guilds would be inviting for reasons involving the border at first not roleplaying

Now not saying I am against the rules exept I would like the five minutes changed. I do think they are an improvement as I really are annoyed sometimes by newbies just getting a guildname, but it also does encourage things like massrecruiting

Every good point has a bad side. Acknowledging that is the way of damagecontrol

[Valbrandr]

I think Karyuu did a very good job explaining the other side and I feel much better and more positive then I did before.  Of course the 5 minute rule would need to go... but Looking at it from one more angle... you would get people who will start saying \"Hey will you join my guild until I get a few more members, you dont have to stay or anything just if you could please help me out.\"  Same basic thing that goes on in WoW getting 10 people to sign the charter..  I did it for a few people just so they could have their guild.  Its tough to say what would be more effective...  But I remember someone saying something about not being able to start a guild unless you have x amount of posts at the forum.. or maybe that was to make a thread but either way sounds good to me .

[Karyuu]

Ahh, Pestilence. My favorite debater :3

Originally posted by Pestilence
24 hours crazy? Why? I mean we are talking different timezones and people sleep for 8 hours.

Because that gives people more time to spam with invites. Five minutes was good in that you\'ll be lucky if you manage to get ONE random member you never knew into your guild before the time is up, but we are all aware of the downfall of this, too. I think six hours is fine. People will just have to compromise one or two hours of sleep - it\'s nowhere near as bad as having to wake up around 4am for a few minutes of being present at guild creation.

Right now, for example, a player from Hawaii is up and awake at 1pm. A player from Japan, 8am. A player from New York, 7pm. 1am by Norway, 3am by Moscow. Adjust these by just 2-3 hours (weekend?) and people should survive.

I\'m willing to say that eight hours is okay, but 24? There is only a 12-hour difference between timezones at most. And that is still too much.

[...] I don\'t think people are going to create the guild over and over again each day for 20,000. I mean I haven\'t seen any loot you can sell for that much in one time and I have been told the loot will be made less extravagant before the wipe and without uberweapons there will be many very hard to kill that give high loot aswell.

Pestilence, this has been said so many times that I\'m getting a little tired, you\'ll have to excuse me. Creating a guild is not meant to be easy. YES you might have to spend weeks, YES you might have to spend months, getting everything ready. This includes the cost. I doubt it would take more a single month for five players to reach 20k for a guild. And if they don\'t have the time for this, they\'re not going to be a very active guild, something we do not need.

Anyhow how do you need to have a story now? You create the guild with a friend and you massinvite hoping 3 will say yes before your time is up and after that one continues to get as far away from the border as possible to lets say 20 so you don\'t have to worry about a few leaving when they don\'t like the guild afterall.

I am hoping that any guildleader/member that spams others with \"Please join my guild before the time is up, I\'ll explain everything to you later\" will get a very strict warning from GMs. This is harassment, and abuse of the system.

[Pestilence]

Karyuu you wouldn\'t be smart to waste time actually talking with people. You just picka time when many newbies are around use /who to get all unguilded and speed type them all in the invitebox.

How could a GM ban this? A GM wouldn\'t even notice it as far as I know unless they record all invites made and go check it.

Anyhow the point is I think it should be 24 hours becuase if you have like 7 people who want to be in your guild you shouldn\'t be held up becuase you can\'t be online at the same time becuase people have jobs and such that makes their PS time pretty fixed.

I don\'t think PS should have a system that makes it hard to make a guild without people having to get up at 4am if you aren\'t all in the same timezone becuase you met on the forums for example.

Timezones aren\'t just hinderness becuase of people sleeping (BTW you need to add it up 8+8 is 16 hours of the 24 hours unless their sleeps overlap and then it\'s not like 8+8-3(overlapping)=13 hours) there is also things like work and school during the week and sports and activities during the weekend.

Anyhow seems it has already been changed anyhow. Almost wish it was 5 minutes now seeing shout recruiting gets on my nerves , but with a timelimit and playernumber demand I guess it will happen more often

[SuburbanPlankton]

Originally posted by Pestilence

Anyhow seems it has already been changed anyhow. Almost wish it was 5 minutes now seeing shout recruiting gets on my nerves , but with a timelimit and playernumber demand I guess it will happen more often

Has it been changed?  What are the new rules?  Once again, I can\'t seem to find any information in the \"official\" channels.

[Pestilence]

No idea but saw someone create a guild and it wasn\'t gone in five minutes eventhough he said he didn\'t have five members yet and was recruiting.

Can\'t remember the name I am afraid.