Author Topic: The Guild Wipe  (Read 3607 times)

Rerogo

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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2005, 05:25:37 pm »
The idea is, it\'s easy to do and therefore promotes cheating and RP violations.
Even if the good Rpers don\'t do it, someone will.

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Jakob

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2005, 05:27:46 pm »
Yeah.  That\'s exactly it.  Although I will never say that restrictions on guild is a bad idea, this particular combination is way over the top...

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mikewsnc

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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2005, 05:44:28 pm »
20k tria is not so bad. KO you have to have 1mill. Cheating is not the way to go either. If that was the case I could just start the guild again today and have a character from the three account I have had over time (if I could remember the account info)  and have five members in no time. That is not my style though. 20K is less then I would have set it at though. Darschis knight will be restarted soon but not through cheating. Period.

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Jakob

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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2005, 05:57:09 pm »
And the VanGuard will take a little longer, but we will not be thrown down by a simple cost...  Granted it might take some time, but I\'m too stuborn to let my dreams die, even under these circumstances. The VanGuard will be ready if Ganga and Remvak ever return to the realm of Yliakum.

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Xordan

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2005, 06:01:38 pm »
This isn\'t the final plan for guild creation. Nothing like it at all really. It\'s only reason for existing is because we\'ll have 1000\'s of guilds in the db after a while, and because there are lots of people having stupid guild names. This adds some kind of control to that. I don\'t care if you use fake characters to get around it, although a future system will prevent that. The system is to stop newbies from making their own guild called \"OMFG leet ninjazorz!!!!\" as soon as they start the game, and to get rid of \'perma-group\' guilds, not to stop people from making proper guilds. Restrictions will rise over time I guess as we introduce something proper. I should point out that in games like WoW, guilds of ~60 members have been disbanded because they are too small. Atm, a guild of 5 seems a good lower limit. In the future as our player base and world increases in size I guess 5 will seem a pathetic amount of members to have in a \'guild\'. :)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 06:04:35 pm by Xordan »

Jakob

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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2005, 06:17:51 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Xordan
...In the future as our player base and world increases in size I guess 5 will seem a pathetic amount of members to have in a \'guild\'. :)


My how I look forward to those days, when the truly powerful guilds are truly powerful

/me wonders how long it would take to build a time machine to go into the future to this glorious time in Yliakum.

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ramlambmoo

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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2005, 08:00:34 pm »
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I should point out that in games like WoW, guilds of ~60 members have been disbanded because they are too small.  


Well, I didnt know that the project was trying to emulate WoW, thats news to me.

I agree with this move in principal, except its rather bemusing the way they\'ve done it- A wipe of characters is announced 4? months before it happened leaving everyone in suspense for that entire time, and discouraging people form being in game, and yet a Guild wipe and major change of the rules governing them isnt even given any advanced warning... obscure.

Xordan

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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2005, 08:39:11 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Well, I didnt know that the project was trying to emulate WoW, thats news to me.


Who said that? I was just pointing out what happens in games which have a much larger player base.

Quote
and yet a Guild wipe and major change of the rules governing them isnt even given any advanced warning... obscure.


Not really. Considering that we knew the wipe was going to occur months before it did, and that we only knew these guild changes were going to take place a day or so before they happened.

Karyuu

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2005, 09:04:08 pm »
Quite understandable. However, why wasn\'t the player base given a few days, at least, as a warning? This is a pretty large change, and many problems could have been avoided had people been given a bit more time to organize their five or more guildmembers to be present at the same time before creation.

I don\'t think waiting a few days before implementing this rule would have hurt development. Something we\'re missing? :>
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ramlambmoo

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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2005, 09:14:13 pm »
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Who said that? I was just pointing out what happens in games which have a much larger player base.  


If you\'re using an example from another game then I can rightfully say that that game has an influence on the desicion making here, else you wouldnt need to give that example to justify it.  Certaintly if the mechanics of another game is used as justification for the mechanics here, and you say you were \"just pointing out what happens in games which have a much larger player base\",- you just gave the example, which left it open to interpretation.  Gah, enough technicalities.  I was just suprised you chose an example from a game such as WoW to justify your point.

Quote
Not really. Considering that we knew the wipe was going to occur months before it did, and that we only knew these guild changes were going to take place a day or so before they happened.


Wait.  How could you only know a few days before?  Are you telling me the dev team didnt know they were going to wipe the guilds, and it just happened via some third party unseen force?  Or that there was something forcing you to do it on that particular date?  You could have made the desicion, Announced it on the forums and waited a few days.  As Karyuu, there must be something we\'re missing here?...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 09:15:24 pm by ramlambmoo »

Xordan

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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2005, 09:15:00 pm »
The server needed to be updated to fix some bugs when it did. It was chance that the guild changes got committed just before the server was updated. I myself see no reason to give advance warning every time we make a change like this, because it will happen often at this stage in development. If we wait a few days every time we make a change then we\'ll lose lots of time. The damage done to players is almost 0, and people are just making a fuss. If this wasn\'t alpha then ok, maybe it would actually matter in the long term, but it really doesn\'t.

This is why I\'m in rules and not PR. :P

btw; we didn\'t wipe the guilds at all afaik. Every guild that had 5 members or more were untouched. The code change just automatically deleted the guilds after 5 min once the server was started. If you look at when the code was committed, that was pretty much the notice we had.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 09:17:08 pm by Xordan »

Seytra

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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2005, 09:15:19 pm »
There obviously issues with this, but overall it is an OK thing to do. Yes, I, too, was surprised by the sudden-ness of it, and also by the very low timer for reformation. 5 minutes are not a lot. However, one can reasonably argue that a guild should have more than 5 members so that the condition of actually only having the minimum number would be the exception, not the permanent state, which makes sense, considering that a guild usually has a lot of members.
As for the 20kT: this seems really low to me. When I look at the auction channel, I see a great and quite disturbing difference to what it was before the wipe: now one tria is worth almost nothing. Items are generally being sold for several thousands of tria, and they aren\'t even rare items as mugs used to be. The value of a tria has dwindled by > 90% since the wipe! IRL, this would be a catastrophically high rate of inflation that would plunge the entire country into poverty!
Also, as has been stated, this would make a mere 4kT per member if you plan on having only the minimal number, which isn\'t a good idea. Even I will have that much within a short time, even though I spend only about 1% of my ingame time killing.

This is a problem only if the way to create a guild is the one commonly used now: One person thinks: \"Hey! I have this cool name, I\'ll make a guild from this!\", then proceeds to the \"create guild\" menu and *bang* the guild is there. Only then they might start recruiting or thinking about a background and all that is associated with it.

The IMO proper way to create a guild is radically different, however, and more like what mikewsnc seems to intend to do (which is really natural by the system now in place): at first, a would-be guild leader will seek would-be members, to both fill the minimum number and also ease the monetary \"burden\". This has the added benefit that there can\'t be invite spamming anymore, and also that people will instead of clicking \"accept\" on an anonymous popup have to actually talk, thus, chances of RP increase. Also, they are more likely to ask what the guild is about and this will speed up the creation of proper goals and background, which alkso is good. Furthermore, this preparation time is also a test for the would-be members, to see if they are actually dedicated enough, and AFAICS will further bonds within the guild a lot better.

Summarising, this new system is a good thing, just, as has been stated and acknowledged already, the anouncement and timing was not the best.

I agree that every guild should have to pay that fee. However, the established guilds will probably have this in no time.

Edit: Xordan posted while I was typing. What he said about the timing of the changes seems logical to me.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 09:18:02 pm by Seytra »

ramlambmoo

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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2005, 09:17:55 pm »
Quote
The server needed to be updated to fix some bugs when it did. It was chance that the guild changes got committed just before the server was updated. I myself see no reason to give advance warning every time we make a change like this, because it will happen often at this stage in development. If we wait a few days every time we make a change then we\'ll lose lots of time. The damage done to players is almost 0, and people are just making a fuss. If this wasn\'t alpha then ok, maybe it would actually matter in the long term, but it really doesn\'t.  


Well that makes more sense..

Seytra

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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2005, 09:23:05 pm »
@ ramlambmoo: The fact that other games are used as example doesn\'t necessarily invalidate the point. After all, in every game there are things that are good. Thus, it would not make sense to avoid something just because it is in WoW. Obviously one needs to be careful with that so that only the really good things get used, but this case is pretty much a logical consequence, so even TGTSNBN would have been an acceptable example AFAICS (if it has such a system).

ramlambmoo

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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2005, 09:28:40 pm »
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@ ramlambmoo: The fact that other games are used as example doesn\'t necessarily invalidate the point. After all, in every game there are things that are good. Thus, it would not make sense to avoid something just because it is in WoW.  


I know it doesnt invalidate it, that wasnt my point.  My point was that I was suprised that Xordan looked to a game like WoW to justify the mechanics of the Guild system, as if I were to justify a system, WoW would possibly be one of the last games I would use as evidence that my system is correct.  But thats just me, I suppose.