Funny thing happened...

[Leeloo]

Originally posted by Zan

Originally posted by Hatchnet
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.

Not really if you were only allowed to change someone\'s fame once a day, real life day that is, and never the same person twice in a week or even month.

I would make such a system so that each person could only change another person between +1, 0 or -1. Annoy one person, get a -1. Annoy someone else, and you\'re at -2. Now if you\'re nice to a third person, you might get back at -1, because he gave you a +1. If you annoy the first guy again, he can\'t do anything, because he already set you to -1, and can\'t put you lower. But if you apologize he might change it back to 0, which increases the total.

This way, one person cannot affect anothers reputation a lot. But if you annoy everyone, you\'ll probably be at -300 in no time.

The disadvantage is that this requires a lot of DB space to maintain, up to the number of players squared.

[Zan]

That sounds very good actually .. didn\'t think of that. Hmm maybe we should move this idea to the wish list though.

[Drey]

im like it too, though leeloo said its hard to make...

would it be annonymous what people said about you though?

[Nikodemus]

I\'m not sure if this sytem is going to work in the way as you think. I think it could destroy reputation of people who don\'t deserve on this.  The points won\'t be give only when someone will commit crime, but only when somebody won\'t like somebody else action. So it will be happening quite often that player won\'t be able to trade with NPC\'s because he have that bad opionion, where only 1/10 of this opinion are really crimes and rest 9/10 is points for not being nice to others.
The points will be factor of how someone is liked or disliked by other players. Someone can be honest, but have huge amount of negatives.
It would be another invisible barrier which we have in MMORPGs and which aren\'t in real life. In real people don\'t know that much about each other, and good they don\'t!
I wan\'t to have some privacy in PS too.

[Zan]

Well it would be as annonymous as you \'d like I guess. The act itself would be technically annonymous ... no names show up on any message or something, but of course given the situation it will often be pretty obvious who just did that. If you piss someone off and suddenly get a drop in your fame you \'ll know where it came from.

We \'ve only talked about the negative things here though, this system can reward just as well. People with a positive fame rating could get certain priviledges .. perhaps a discount at some stores or something.

Nikodemus, I understand your concerns. The system does allow for abuse but with enough restrictions and regulations it would be minimal. I also know that the present planeshift community is mostly made up out of good people so I am not really worried about something like this backfiring.

The example I gave with NPC\'s not willing to trade or talk might have been a bit harsh though ... it would probably be better that they just don\'t respond very friendly, but still respond and perhaps charge you a bit more. This would only be with a very low reputation though. Say something like -50 or the effects would be so minimal they only become significant at very high or low ratings. Also keep in mind that even for those with low fame there are still going to be more shady traders who don\'t care. A sort of black market where they only care about the color of your trias.

I can also see your want for privacy so I figured what if we only made the fame ratings that significantly differ from 0 visible? Say that it \'d only start to show from +/-25. This would of course be exceptional so your average player would never show a fame rating. I think a system like that is actually pretty realistic. Most people don\'t have a large enough reputation so others can\'t see it ... but there are those who have become famous or infamous and about everyone has heard some rumours about them. This even adds to roleplaying as you can now become a famous hero or a well known criminal. I can see that for some people *coughAm-hehifhewasstillherecough* it would be their intention to get a negative rating to go along with their character.

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by Zan
I can also see your want for privacy so I figured what if we only made the fame ratings that significantly differ from 0 visible? Say that it \'d only start to show from +/-25. This would of course be exceptional so your average player would never show a fame rating. I think a system like that is actually pretty realistic. Most people don\'t have a large enough reputation so others can\'t see it ... but there are those who have become famous or infamous and about everyone has heard some rumours about them. This even adds to roleplaying as you can now become a famous hero or a well known criminal. I can see that for some people *coughAm-hehifhewasstillherecough* it would be their intention to get a negative rating to go along with their character.

But i think informations if someone is famous or not, should travel in tradiional way, it is from people to people. If we will have points, then one will know reputation of someone who he never seen or heard about. You will talk very different with him and be warned about possible consequences of deal with him and such. If in real some stranger will come to you, you know nothing about him.
In my eyes it is not a solution. It will be really good to honest characters, this will protect them, and they will have nothing to care about. But it will hit not so honest characters which purpose is often to trick those honest.
Really, when I first see someone and you can\'t hear everythink about every person, I know nothing about him and about his reputation.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Leeloo

Originally posted by Zan

Originally posted by Hatchnet
Even with limits one malicious person could very easily do serious harm the reputations of a large number of people before he could be caught.

Not really if you were only allowed to change someone\'s fame once a day, real life day that is, and never the same person twice in a week or even month.

I would make such a system so that each person could only change another person between +1, 0 or -1. Annoy one person, get a -1. Annoy someone else, and you\'re at -2. Now if you\'re nice to a third person, you might get back at -1, because he gave you a +1. If you annoy the first guy again, he can\'t do anything, because he already set you to -1, and can\'t put you lower. But if you apologize he might change it back to 0, which increases the total.

This way, one person cannot affect anothers reputation a lot. But if you annoy everyone, you\'ll probably be at -300 in no time.

The disadvantage is that this requires a lot of DB space to maintain, up to the number of players squared.

- It isn\'t realistic.

- It interferes with RP.

- People have more insentive to give negative ratings than to give positive ratings.

- New people, who often get the most help, won\'t know how to give positive ratins.


All in all, it\'s a pretty dismal system.  It doesn\'t reflect at all how people actually relate to eachother and think about one another.  I think just word of mouth and a naturalistic approach to reputation is good enough.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Nikodemus
Zanzibar, you are a child of MMORPGs, you don\'t know what is reality. Unless you were sarcastic.
Lets say a marriage are on vacations, on top of some peak and they want to make a photo of them. So they give their camara to a stranger and ask him/her to make them a photo.  
The stranger walk away for 10m and looks like he is going to make the photo. But suddently succesfully he/she runs away.

Now with zanzibar\'s logic, the camara was the stranger property. Was it really?

Good example? Did some people started to think that PS is  a world, not a game where we play?

Originally posted by KillNnikk
Great analogy, sums it up expertly.

It does not sum it up expertly.  If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved.  It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.

Was it right?  No.  Misfortunate?  Yes.  Ignorant?  Yes.

[Drey]

i agree with shalmaneser. though i would like to draw his attention to the edit button.

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by zanzibar
It does not sum it up expertly.  If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved.  It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.

Was it right?  No.  Misfortunate?  Yes.  Ignorant?  Yes.

I just wanted to point out that in MMORPG like PS in its current state you would be right. But in real world no. Don\'t we want in PS to be ruled by the same rules? Otherwise what will we have? I can\'t see how it may be good, as i hate prohibition.
Giving a stranger a thing in real you risk that you lost it, but you can always run after him and try to take it back. In PS, giving an item to a stranger means you almost for sure lost it and you can do nothing after that. It is wrong and should be changed because:

Originally posted by zanzibar
- It isn\'t realistic.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Nikodemus

Originally posted by zanzibar
It does not sum it up expertly.  If he gave the sword to him, then he had to realize the risks involved.  It was a foolish thing for him to give him the sword and expect it back, given that it was a stranger.

Was it right?  No.  Misfortunate?  Yes.  Ignorant?  Yes.

I just wanted to point out that in MMORPG like PS in its current state you would be right. But in real world no. Don\'t we want in PS to be ruled by the same rules? Otherwise what will we have? I can\'t see how it may be good, as i hate prohibition.
Giving a stranger a thing in real you risk that you lost it, but you can always run after him and try to take it back. In PS, giving an item to a stranger means you almost for sure lost it and you can do nothing after that. It is wrong and should be changed because:

Originally posted by zanzibar
- It isn\'t realistic.

It isn\'t realistic to have to ask for confirmation before every duel either.  And it isn\'t realistic to murder someone infront of a large crowd and not have law enforcement come after you.  And it isn\'t realistic to walk the streets at night without worrying about muggers.

[Nikodemus]

All true
It would be some challange.

inspired by Zanzibar point \"3. I am a nice guy who helps others.\" from his sig:
A nice guy who helps others die faster challanging them? yay! What are you going to prove?

[Rage McCloud]

well if indeed this fame system comes into play... you should have to be able to present a plausible reason... so like it detects insults directed to YOU the player and then automatically lowers it... or if they compliment you then it raises it... so like if you say

\"Billy you are horrible at this game\" it would get horrible and Billy and then see it as an isult and lower that persons rating however,

\"Billy you are an extremely good fighter\"
it sees billy and extremely good and then raises it...

but this could malfunction and see a compliment as an insult if it is worded wrong... so pretty much it would FORCE people to think before they speak... which is my favorite thing to say...

[Zan]

I think that last would be overcomplicating the system a bit.

[SuburbanPlankton]

In principle, I think the Fame System is intriguing, but I don\'t see how it would fit in without adversley affecting the RP aspect of the game.  Of sourse, PS is not \"real life\", but it seems to me that the system would either be intrusive (having to interrupt what you are doing to \"rank\" other players), or impossibly difficult to program (the game needing to interpret actions on your behalf).

The current system, in which a character\'s reputation is spread by word of mouth, *is* realistic, and I think works just fine.  Those who hang around the game, and the forums, long enough get a pretty good sense of the reputations of some of the more well known characters (Drey, Shalmaneser/Zanzibar, and Karyuu spring immediately to mind).  

What might be helpful is a couterpart to the \"buddy\" list for those people you don\'t like.  You could add people to this list to remind you when you meet them in-game that you have a rather poor opinion of them.  I\'m not the best with names; I remember faces much more easily.  In PS, this can be a problem since everybody looks alike.  An \"adversaries\" list  would help to keep things straight, at least until we get a little more variety in the character models.