Author Topic: Bargaining  (Read 2009 times)

Rage McCloud

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Bargaining
« on: September 05, 2005, 04:11:14 am »
Ok kind of like in Elder Scrolls... a bargaining system... were when you click an item in a store you could try to talk the store keeper down on the price... if infact your \"speechcraft\" was high enough... but if it was too low and it failed he may raise the price... and if the alignment system goes through then you might be able to have an and a button...
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Arklari Rereler

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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2005, 04:30:38 am »
Stripped right from morrowind! I love unoriginal Ideas!
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Arklari Rereler

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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2005, 04:31:11 am »
[Eh, So I was in a pissy mood....]

Anyway for \"Real\" feedback;

Speechcraft (The name) is something unique for ES and we should leave it that way :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 11:07:33 pm by Arklari Rereler »
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Rage McCloud

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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 04:34:41 am »
... well how about some actual feed back since i said that i got it from morrowind... and anywho thats not what i was thinking of when i started the thread... but then i remembered morrowind has it so i added that part so people wouldnt flame... but again its not reliable to make people read things...
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SuburbanPlankton

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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2005, 06:37:55 am »
Just because the idea isn\'t \"original\" does not necessarily mean the idea isn\'t good.  Hit Points and Mana Points aren\'t original ideas either, but they seem to work OK.  PS does try to be \"different\" from most other MMORPGs, but that doesn\'t mean that every game concept has to be unique.

Now, about the idea at hand...

In order for this to work, we would need some sort of \"reputation\" system.  The game would have to know (based on some sort of algorithm) whether you are \"good\" or \"evil\".  I have gone on record (in another thread) that I don\'t think this is a good idea.  I don\'t think we can count on the AI being intelligent enough to understand our characters\' motivations.

The only other way to implement reputations would be to have a system in which players \"rated\" each others\' characters.  I would reject this idea for two reasons: a) the potential for abuse, and b) a character\'s reputation would need to be made visible to all players, which would further detract from RP.  In the real world, you can\'t tell whether a person is good or evil just by looking at them; they don\'t have a special color, or unique icon over their head.

Assuming the whole concept of player-based economy gets  going, this should become a moot point anyway.  Personally, I would much rather go to a player-owned store to buy my gear that have to get it from Harnquist.  Hopefully, I will be able to obtain most items I need from other members of my guild, or from merchants with whom the guild has developed a relationship.  I might even get a discount from the merchant due to a purchasing contract between the guild and the merchant.  Or I might need to obtain a rare item, available only from some of the \"shadier\" elements of society, and need to pay a higher price due to my not being in the proper guild.  So there we have the potential for flexible pricing, bargaining, and bartering, totally within the confines of RP, and without needing to alter the game code.

Neryam

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2005, 09:59:39 am »
Of course, for all this to work, we need NPCs that know more english than 2-year olds. Soo.. we need to wait :D
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Draklar

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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2005, 10:15:01 am »
In Morrowind, if the price went too high that way, you could just end the conversation and begin it again, this way returning to the normal price. It was awful.
To pretend that in Planeshift, you\'d have to clutter the database with what every merchant thinks of every character... That would be quite a bit of trash right there...
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zanzibar

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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2005, 08:28:55 pm »
Reputation has nothing to do with it.  What this would be, and btw it was in Daggerfall before it\'s sequel, is a skill called \"bargaining\" (mercantile in daggerfall).

I think that the worthiness of this skill must be directly linked to the creation of a player based economy.

On the one hand, if you can get killer deals from NPC, then you\'re less likely to buy from other players.

However, if a player hassve an awesome ability to bargain down prices, then he or she can make a living selling basic weapons to the player base!



More on reputation, and why it\'s not such a great idea:

Both good and evil characters should be able to get good prices from merchants, since many merchants probably identify themselves as neutral -- they\'re in it for the money.  The idea of reputation points SUCK anyway because you will always be liked by some crowds and hated by others-- that makes the idea of a reputation point system absolutely worthless.  If you\'re really popular with the underground and evil guilds, and you\'re really hated by good guilds, and then new people have opinions of you, and neutral guilds have opinions of you, etc etc, how can a single stat representing reputation reflect all that?  Reputation is complex.  It cannot be expressed by a stat, or even many stats.  There\'s also more to reputation than simply being \"liked\" or \"disliked\".

Really, a stat for reputation which would prevent people from buying anything if it got too low?  Think about it.  It would turn planeshift into a livejournal voting community, where people would get voted off the island if the dominant crowd of regulars all decided to vote that player \'off the island\' by manipulating his or her reputation points.  It isn\'t realistic, and it isn\'t nice.
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Draklar

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 08:54:38 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Both good and evil characters should be able to get good prices from merchants, since many merchants probably identify themselves as neutral -- they\'re in it for the money.
From the rational point of view, merchant won\'t trust a shady character as much as he would trust a well known paladin. Even if the merchant is neutral, factors similar to charisma kick in and merchant may change the prices, or even not sell items at all.

From the alignments point of view, neutrality means not joining the paths of good or evil, yet it doesn\'t mean looking at both paths in a same way. \"Neutrals\" aren\'t going to accept what \"evils\" do, the difference from \"goods\" is that \"neutrals\" won\'t try to stop them (although they just might if life of loved ones is endangered).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 08:56:07 pm by Draklar »
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Rolf Blacksmith

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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2005, 10:11:48 pm »
@ Draklar:

I think those \"neutrals\" you mentioned can\'t be really neutral when they dislike the \"bad\" ones and support the \"good\" ones. Really neutral merchants would not look at the other\'s character, but at their own profit, and \"bad\" guys\" don\'t have to be worse customers than \"good\" guys ...
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Draklar

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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2005, 12:04:27 am »
Basically, it\'s like saying merchant will behave in same way towards unkept vandal and a knight in shiny armour... Right...
Neutrality was never about looking at good and evil in same way.
Say, you\'re an average guy sitting in your home. You don\'t give money for charities, but you also don\'t steal and stuff like that. Now tell me, if you\'d be watching TV and there was said something about a guy that rescued a girl from a burning home... and a guy that set that home on fire... You wouldn\'t give more sympathy (or respect, anything) to the \"heroic\" one?
Neutral people are usualy grateful for protection and they don\'t like the idea of some \"evil\" dudes running around ruining others\' lives.
Plus, need to gain money is one thing. Being seen while dealing with shady characters is another. Not exactly the best thing for business... I believe dealing with renown heroes would bring a merchant much more respect...
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Bnm85

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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2005, 12:29:08 am »
Before anyone ever complains about \"unoriginal ideas\" from other games, they should take a second look at the official PlaneShift site and description for \"Wish List\" forum. Here, I\'ll save some work for you:

\"The Wish List Forum is reserved to give good ideas on what you would like to see in the game. Will be good to post here also ideas taken from other games.\"

Oh, and I like the \"bargaining\" idea. Will be great for Diaboli people with high CHA stat. And yes, I think it should purely be based on a CHA stat and nothing else, whether your char is good or evil. :) And rather than trying to bargain, I think the price should be automatically calculated based on your CHA stat. Simple as that.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 12:35:36 am by Bnm85 »

zanzibar

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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2005, 02:51:58 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Draklar
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Both good and evil characters should be able to get good prices from merchants, since many merchants probably identify themselves as neutral -- they\'re in it for the money.
From the rational point of view, merchant won\'t trust a shady character as much as he would trust a well known paladin. Even if the merchant is neutral, factors similar to charisma kick in and merchant may change the prices, or even not sell items at all.

From the alignments point of view, neutrality means not joining the paths of good or evil, yet it doesn\'t mean looking at both paths in a same way. \"Neutrals\" aren\'t going to accept what \"evils\" do, the difference from \"goods\" is that \"neutrals\" won\'t try to stop them (although they just might if life of loved ones is endangered).




You\'re wrong.  Merchants not selling to \"evil\" characters is:

- unrealistic
- impractical


If we lose characters who are in the underground, then we we lose what is IMO an important part of many RPGs.  Do you think that if we have a rating system, people will want to fill the role of the theif, the scoundrel, the crime lord, the assassin, the rogue, the drunk, etc?  No.  Instead, people will run around trying to get their \"reputation stat\" higher.  Entire guilds will form for the sole purpose of voting each member\'s reputation stat higher.

Plus there\'s the whole \"voting off the island\" bit.


Also, most of the merchants in the planeshift world are freaking arms merchants!  Do you think an arms merchant cares too much about who he\'s selling weapons to?  As long as he gets his money, of course?  No.  So saying that NPCs won\'t do business with \"evil\" (unpopular) characters is just silly.  And if there are NPCs which sell only to \"good\" (popular) characters, then there must also be NPCs which sell only to \"evil\" (unpopular) characters as well.
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zanzibar

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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2005, 02:56:52 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Draklar
Basically, it\'s like saying merchant will behave in same way towards unkept vandal and a knight in shiny armour... Right...
Neutrality was never about looking at good and evil in same way.
Say, you\'re an average guy sitting in your home. You don\'t give money for charities, but you also don\'t steal and stuff like that. Now tell me, if you\'d be watching TV and there was said something about a guy that rescued a girl from a burning home... and a guy that set that home on fire... You wouldn\'t give more sympathy (or respect, anything) to the \"heroic\" one?
Neutral people are usualy grateful for protection and they don\'t like the idea of some \"evil\" dudes running around ruining others\' lives.
Plus, need to gain money is one thing. Being seen while dealing with shady characters is another. Not exactly the best thing for business... I believe dealing with renown heroes would bring a merchant much more respect...




You have a poor understanding of what neutrality means.  Think about the Kjeld guild from before the wipe -- a good example of a neutral guild.  They believed that the world requires a ballance between good and evil.  Too much good is a bad thing, and not enough evil in the world is also a problem.  That\'s what it truly means to be neutral.  A truely neutral warrior may even switch sides in the middle of a battle once one side starts winning.

And there are people in the world who would feel more sympathy for the arsonist than for the victims.
 




Quote
Originally posted by Bnm85
Before anyone ever complains about \"unoriginal ideas\" from other games, they should take a second look at the official PlaneShift site and description for \"Wish List\" forum. Here, I\'ll save some work for you:

\"The Wish List Forum is reserved to give good ideas on what you would like to see in the game. Will be good to post here also ideas taken from other games.\"

Oh, and I like the \"bargaining\" idea. Will be great for Diaboli people with high CHA stat. And yes, I think it should purely be based on a CHA stat and nothing else, whether your char is good or evil. :) And rather than trying to bargain, I think the price should be automatically calculated based on your CHA stat. Simple as that.





I agree.  There are many evil people in this world who can convince you that they\'re your friend or buddy.  They do it well, they do if often, and they do it to get something from you.  Bargaining should be a charisma related stat, I agree.  That would be great, because people who don\'t have a lot in terms of constitution are at a disadvantage in terms of fighting and therefore are at a disadvantage in terms of money making via rats and clackers.
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SuburbanPlankton

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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2005, 03:20:23 am »
A bargaining \"skill\" based solely on Charisma would make sense; \"good\" and \"evil\" don\'t need to enter int0 the equation in any way.  I only have one concern:

Charisma score is determined at character creation.  That\'s fine; Diaboli inherently have more charisma than Kran.  That makes perfect sense.  But there needs to be a mechanism whereby you can change your charisma score.  You might work very hard to become \"charming\" in order to overcome deficiencies in your outward appearance, or you might be naturally charismatic, but act like a real jerk to all you come in contact with.  There needs to be some way for the game to account for behavior and its effect on charisma.

Training cannot be the answer, or else everyone could just buy their way to a high charisma score.  We can\'t use a player-rating system, for reasons which have already been pointed out in this thread.  I can\'t come up with a way to do it unless we can give the AI an IQ boost of about a jillion percent.