A Public Apology

[zanzibar]

Thankyou for your understanding Leeloo.  I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Moogie
Ok. I\'d just woken up and hadn\'t fully read it. Sorry about that. Still, it didn\'t need to be posted here on the forum. If he was willing to write such a long and honest apology, it wouldn\'t have taken that much more time to send it individually to the GMs involved and the DC guild (post on their forum (if any) perhaps?). I still stand that it\'s inviting unneeded discussion from people who have no idea what they\'re talking about, me included.

It seems as if you\'ve already made up your mind on this.  What can I tell you, except that people have posted both publically and privately saying that the appology was well written, well placed, and well deserved?

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Moogie
That\'s not to say other people arn\'t getting punished for their actions; nobody is obligated to tell you everything that\'s being done, so assuming you\'re the ONLY person being chastised here is nothing short of funny

Yeah, but other people aren\'t and he is the only one that is being chastised. Until now anyway. It\'s something we need to look at.

[Drey]

i dont know all of this story... as far as rules and the like goes ive never seen him do anything wrong and shal has been fine to me as a character and as a GM.

I have also been involved a time or two when he has had a dispute with a GM and although, maybe hasty is the word here...

but then apparently there is more that i dont know about so i can speak there, in the end its not as if  i have a say any way so yeah.

[ramlambmoo]

This is an utter disgrace.  I\'ve generally kept my mouth shut the past few months about issues like this, but frankly right now I couldnt give a damn.  

Enough is enough. I have a mailbox full of complaints about your actions ingmae [sic] and out of game, I have banned you ingame for a month. If you continue your behavior on the forum, you will likely be banned here as well.  

You notice He hasnt investigated the claims; hes just seen lots of them an therefore assumed that The one must be in the wrong against the majority.  One week ago I posted a comment in The dragon council thread claiming that certain members of the community were complaining about people just because they didnt like them in game, and not because they were doing anything wrong.  Due to the lack of clear guildlines for GM\'s, the GM\'s have just interpreted the rules as being \"If people complain about you, you\'re in the wrong\".  Where is the proof here?  Claims are being made with no backup, and the player is expected to apologise, and get on with it.  Approximatly two months ago I made a complaint to Talad about this very Same GM about this very same problem; and now today we have someone being banned for a month with no proof simply because its too much effort to investigate all the claims.  If you have a guild of 230 members, and you dont like somebody, It would be pretty easy to fill up someones inbox with complaints.  I will personally vouch that Shal has never done anything against the rules of the game, and has never even looked like it.  Yes, hes competitive, and He doesnt care who\'s toes he treads on- But is that against the rules?  Frankly Im disgusted by the mob mentailty that rules the desicions here- The rules are not enforced on easy to understand guildlines, but on vague, subjective whims of GMs who seek only to appease the largest number of people to limit their own work.  I am not talking about all the GMs- But there are a number, and it Is 10 times the work for the honest and sensible ones to try and clear up the mess that the others are creating, especially when they cannot easily quesiton the judgement of the others.  I\'d like to thank all the GM\'s who have taken the correct route in applying the current rules to situations, not their own whims- It takes alot more effort and indeed bravery to make the correct desicion instead of just appeasing the majority, but it leaves some hope.

What needs to be done?  CLEAR GUILDLINES.  And the GMs need to know them as well.  What is needed are 5, 10, whatever- clear, Black and White rules for what you can and cannot do.  Leaving it up to the Judgement of GMs is simply not on, and leaves them open to just taking the side of the mob.  No grey areas, not judgement- Rules.  That is what works.  Small judgement is ok, even unavoidable- but when Somebody can be banned for a month, without proper proof, or even citiation of which rule he has broken!- that is ridiculous.

I wish you good luck Shal, and I hope that you will find justice.

[Kiern]

Good, someone who knows more about in-game then myself said what I wanted to.  

This is what was confusing me, from what I could tell zanzibar didn\'t actually break any of the rules.  That goes for the threat of being banned on the forums as well, even though I find his constant whining to be annoying...that shouldn\'t be a bannable offense, and as far as I know it isn\'t.

[odd2k]

Can\'t we all just get along?

[zanzibar]

I have done some things wrong.  I\'ve been two eager in pointing out every little thing that Zayek, Cereja, and Dragon Council memebers do wrong, where in some instances I should have kept my mouth shut.  I saw some things that weren\'t actually there.

Additionally, I have been prone to slight bursts of ooc chat, or IC chat which others have interpretted as ooc.

Additionally, several months ago I was killing things in the arena through normal things, but I was doing so in such a way that I was competing with others for spawns.  That is, I would stand next to a spawn where somebody already was, and attack the creature.  Having a good connection, I was often able to attack the creature first, ensuring the kill.

Zayek chastised me and informed me that this was indeed kill stealing.  So without knowing it, I was breaking a rule.  Since then, Zayek has often accused me of not just kill stealing but \"being a kill stealer\", and as evidence he has cited the incidient in the arena, even though it was months ago.

The point however is that I am not innocent, and I need to give apology where apology is due.

[Kiern]

Originally posted by zanzibar
The point however is that I am not innocent, and I need to give apology where apology is due.

Well, it is just what was said in the PM you posted that gave that idea.  But also there is different degrees of punishment and I think being banned for a month is over-the-top, even if you are not completely innocent (because who is?).

[Drey]

Originally posted by odd2k
Can\'t we all just get along?

only if large sums of money are offered in xordans direction

[Xordan]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Having a good connection, I was often able to attack the creature first, ensuring the kill.

That\'s not kill stealing. You were breaking no rule. Kill stealing is where you use magic to finish off a monster that someone is already fighting.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Xordan

Originally posted by zanzibar
Having a good connection, I was often able to attack the creature first, ensuring the kill.

That\'s not kill stealing. You were breaking no rule. Kill stealing is where you use magic to finish off a monster that someone is already fighting.

Oh.  Could you tell that to the GMs?  In my experience, they are of mixed minds on the matter.

[Verrliit]

You win a tiny moment of my attention, Shalmaneser.
Do not rejoice.

You have not succeeded in goading me into anger.  When I think of you, it is with pity for how you have wasted yourself.
I speak to bring understanding to those who do not see you clearly for what you are.

You demand that all must pay attention to you.  You yell, you insult, you misbehave, you disrupt, you are not respectful of others, even in the forums.  You trick others into bickering, so you may feel superior to them.  These are the sort of thiings that are your true goals.
Pathetic, empty, worthless Shalmaneser, who pretends  that he is only inept at RP of Evil, and then afterwards, that he is persecuted.

Now that I point it out, it is obvious to all.
What you have written here, is one of your endless attacks against players and GMs.  It is just another play for attention.

Once again, a few suckers have fallen for it.
It is the furthest thing from an apology I have seen in recent memory.


You win, Shal.  I give you the rejection you have worked so hard for.  I repeat what I once said to you in private:

You are unworthy.

You are nothing, and no one.

I will not play with you.

[Karyuu]

Then do not \"play\" in this thread. You, as well as a few others who either have posted or attempted to, show a lack of understanding for the reasons behind Zanzibar\'s post. What we are trying to do here is end bickering and find resolutions to arguments. You are not helping. There are no doubts that Shal has done some wrongs, but he too has been wronged, and name-calling and belittling has no place here at this time. Be a mature individual, and take your dark poetry elsewhere.

[Valbrandr]

I am not sure if it is warranted but apolgy accepted here.  But I do believe that the rules of conduct of an Evil player (IC of course) needs to be outline/posted somewhere.  Because, as you and Sangwa has stated there are very few things to do ingame like PvP or anything.  So as of now people use the forum boards to do some of there RP.  Now the problem is that people misunderstand you and they think it is some OOC attack.  In the future I would just make sure you put \"IC\"  in front of everything you say so there is no confusion.

[zanzibar]

Hmm.  If I remember correctly Verr, I told you I wasn\'t going to play your games, not that I wasn\'t going to \"play with you\".  I have no interest in self-indulgent drama, and it surely doesn\'t belong in the General Discussion forum.

If there is any issue you wish to discuss with me, feel free to contact me via PM.  Other personal problems would probably be best resolved via PM\'s as well.  To put it bluntly and honestly, you\'re trolling while the rest of us are trying to have a meaningful dialogue.

No offense and no hard feelings.

Originally posted by Valbrandr
I am not sure if it is warranted but apolgy accepted here.  But I do believe that the rules of conduct of an Evil player (IC of course) needs to be outline/posted somewhere.  Because, as you and Sangwa has stated there are very few things to do ingame like PvP or anything.  So as of now people use the forum boards to do some of there RP.  Now the problem is that people misunderstand you and they think it is some OOC attack.  In the future I would just make sure you put \"IC\"  in front of everything you say so there is no confusion.

Yeah, it\'s a complicated issue.  There are in-game events at play, but at the same time there are real-world egos and sensitivities being affected.  I think that we might be able to draw the line at harrassment.  If the chat makes no references to RL events, and is therefore in character, I believe it can still be defined as out of character if it qualifies as harrassment.  But then we need to distinguish between full-blown harrassment and in-character insults and belittlement.  For instance, a member of the upper class and a member of the underground or poor will surely exchange harsh words with one another from time to time.  Members of warring guilds will also treat eachother differently if the war is ill-spirited.  It\'s a sensitive ballance.

One thing that is objectively out of character is GM involvement and the petition system, not to mention certain aspects of forum behaviour.  I think personally, I\'ve tried to have things both ways - that is, I\'ve been blending IC and OOC dialogue, creating confusion and conflict.  It surely wasn\'t my intention, but I think it makes a good case study.