Pip's Poll: Duelling Rules

[Suno_Regin]

Like I said before, I only do what surrounding people are...Roleplay, or OOC

Also: Game Masters never RP, always OOC...So I find it hard to roleplay in the plaza period :|

[Keyaz]

Game masters are not supposed to RP, if they want to do that they log out and play with their IC\'s

they do however try to minimise the disturbances while they work for your convenience in their spare time.

slapping mitaki aside.

cool beans! :tup: from me

[Sensotaka]

The Defenders also agree in principle to these rules. A \"Code Duello\" will soon be placed upon the Defender\'s forum and eventually the website similar to what was written here. All Defenders will abide by it whenever possible.

However variations in the rule will undoubtedly occur which will result in different interpretations of the rules. Therefore I suggest that in a formal duel, the rules are gone over immidiately before the duel begins so that both parties fully understand them and agree.

It should be recognized that compliance is voluntary and not all citizens or all guilds will share the quest for civilized combat in matters of honor. Thus it may not always be possible to fully comply with the established rule.


SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret    
\"I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"

[ramlambmoo]

Nay.
I have previously stated my reasons in the other thread and thus You can read them there.

[Nikodemus]

I think there should be different variations. It would allow to see better what are opinions of others. With yay and nay options only, one won\'t agree with only part of one point and..
voted nay.

Besides i don\'t think it is going to work if there is no real way to enforce it. But maybe good start.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

we are in agreement to Pip\'s rules...

Lolitra \'I so hate it when people just challenge me for a fight without reason... \'

Celorrim \'Just pure thuggery..\'

Lolitra \'they are so rude and really spoil my day\'

Celorrim, whilst playing with her tail... \'it\'s probably because they have no grasp of lingual skill, or common curtisy...\'

Lolitra \'and its not pretty...\'

both nod and say... \'here here to the code of confrontations... \'

Celorrim \'so much more civil...\'

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Sensotaka
It should be recognized that compliance is voluntary and not all citizens or all guilds will share the quest for civilized combat in matters of honor. Thus it may not always be possible to fully comply with the established rule.

Different people have different definitions of what is civil and what is honourable.  What\'s the point of voting on it?  Are we talking about building it into the mechanics of the game?  That\'s silly, and it violates RP.  Are we talking about making it a law of Hydlaa?  Now ~that\'s~ more interesting, but is it within RP?  How will people find out about the law?  Will we have local laws for all cities and townships?

And it further raises this point:

Originally posted by Nikodemus
Besides i don\'t think it is going to work if there is no real way to enforce it. But maybe good start.

Who will enforce it?  GMs?  That would interfere with RP, wouldn\'t it?  Will other players enforce it?  Without open PVP, how would they do it?

[Pip]

If I didn\'t exist, I couldn\'t put in this post. If I am \"ignoring\" certain persons it is for good reason.

And I have no control over the voting results it is all done by the computer, perhaps a moderator will explain how it works.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Pip
If I didn\'t exist, I couldn\'t put in this post. If I am \"ignoring\" certain persons it is for good reason.

And I have no control over the voting results it is all done by the computer, perhaps a moderator will explain how it works.

lol, I thought the poll was locked and we were sending you our votes.  A noob moment / brain fart.  I\'ve just already voted, no worries.

But yeah, I tried sending you a PM and it wouldn\'t go through.

[Xordan]

Voted no. My character would never follow such rules.

[Verrliit]

I voted no.

Not to the thought that there was a right and wrong way to duel, but to making more rules.

This is a matter of what is considered to be polite.  But it cannot be allowed to become more than that.  The endless rush in the forums, to make everything subject to rigid rules, stifles creativity.

1. There is RP that will require being impolite.

2. \"Hide and go Kill\" is too much fun, cannot be stopped, and the small disruption that a chase scene will bring, is attractive to Noobs, it shows them there is action to be had.

3. Similarly, a duel, loudly announced, and fought out of earshot but not out of view of the usual plaza gathering, perhaps on the other side of the fountain from Harnquist, would be a public spectacle, attractive to the newcomer and beneficial to PS.

I vote that this etiquette, \"A Duelling Code of Honor\" be published, as a book in the Library, to be specifically labeled as a guideline for those who are noble, and seek to follow the traditions of polite and honorable duelling.

It could then be taught to Noobs, by simply referring them to the Library.  (Which needs a master catalog of titles, by the way.)

But do not ever call it a rule.  Rules will be broken by all too many who have made breaking anything that is called a rule their sole mission.

You will get vastly more result than any rule will give you, if you simply say that this way of duelling is considered a noble and polite tradition and are disdainful of those who are ill-mannered.

Courtesy cannot be imposed upon the unwilling.  You must lead by conspicuous example, and show how attractive it is to be elegant, instead.


The Dark Lady
Verrliit

[Sensotaka]

What you say Lady Verrliit is of course true. But I think that the guilds that voted \"yes\" mean to make guild rules controling such events, not that they agree that such rules be forced on everyone. That would be a bad idea for exactly the reasons you articulate.

The idea\'s you speak of concerning a library book dealing with the Code Duello (duelling code) is in my opinion an excellent idea (yes dev\'s, if you are listening I am willing to write it for you). I hope it and other books to populate the library come about soon.

SensoTaka Kishu : Defenders Banneret    
\" I would rather die with honor than live with shame...\"  

[Seytra]

So now everyone is suposed to vote?

Anyway, I will certainly vote \"Yay\". These are, to me, first and foremost OOC, simply because the problem they are supposed to solve is completely OOC: the mindless, un-RP duelling everywhere that is cluttering up the chat window and looking and sounding just plain stupid. Thereby it removes all sense of realism and makes PS look like a duelling game.

I can\'t help but wonder why some think that reducing that is detrimental to RP. To be more specific, I fail to see how a challenge window, popping up randomly without any further notice, without you even knowing the sender except for the name that is stated in the chat window, could possibly be classified as RP.
As I have stated before, this is not RP, it is merely a sad try to phrase pure OOC PvP happiness as RP. RP is different, it requires a level of mutual, completely OOC, trust that is not attainable through any pop-up window.

Therefore, these points exist to govern the OOC conduct, with having the side-effect of increasing likelyhood to have actual RP, by simply requiring people to, in whatever form, talk.

There is no random duelling IC.
To be clear: characters may very well disregard these points. However, players won\'t. Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers. Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention. That\'s a major difference.

Like talking undesignated OOC vs. talking about something completely different yet IC in an IC discussion. Second is RP, first is not. But I disgress.

Whether or not they will or should become IC law is of no importance to my decision (though I think they should eventually become, in part, IC law, as it is really natural). They solve an OOC problem and they are OOC. And I vote for them, completely OOC. Yay.

[ramlambmoo]

There is no random duelling IC.

What if your character likes randommly attacking people?  Its conceivable, especially if you were Chaotic Evil.  You\'re just making a generalisation because of the behavior of some people.

Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers.

Thats your opinion, that it is required that you must follow these rules to be in character.  

Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention.

How are you to simultaneously obey these rules OOC but disobey them IC?  Using the example of the theif or brigand again, are you to walk up to someone and OOC ask them what their skill level is, whether you want magic in a duel, etc, stand around for them to reply and then start a fight?  To me, that breaks the realism more, and defeats the entire purpose.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by ramlambmoo

There is no random duelling IC.

What if your character likes randommly attacking people?  Its conceivable, especially if you were Chaotic Evil.  You\'re just making a generalisation because of the behavior of some people.

Absolutely not, no. Please read on.

Originally posted by ramlambmoo

Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers.

Thats your opinion, that it is required that you must follow these rules to be in character.  

Also not, the distinct diffrence is IC and OOC, as I\'ll try to expres in the end.

Originally posted by ramlambmoo

Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention.

How are you to simultaneously obey these rules OOC but disobey them IC?  Using the example of the theif or brigand again, are you to walk up to someone and OOC ask them what their skill level is, whether you want magic in a duel, etc, stand around for them to reply and then start a fight?  To me, that breaks the realism more, and defeats the entire purpose.

Yes, absolutely. When I receive a random duelling request, I am always going to ignore it. I know that a true RPer will never just send a duelling request. Instead, they will state that they have an IC reason to attack you. In almost all cases, you will know the reason or that there is one.
You won\'t necessarily need to be so really specific about things in that case, but the general idea remains, for the simple reason that while your char might be very high in level compared to mine (or vice-versa), this difference might be due to a whole lot of factors that are entirely OOC. It is this problem of the actual levels being 100% RL related and 0% RP related that makes the duelling system almost inherently unusable for IC fights. These are better RP\'d instead of fought, which has the added benefit of allowing a lot more interesting battles, though that also requires a high level of discipline on both sides.

If, however, you use the duelling system for RP, then you must make sure that the ensuing fight will actually have some realistic resemblance of the RP of both players.

The effort to make sure that your \"target\" knows that you are IC, and a trustworthy RPer (OOC, not IC, mind you!) will usually be what counts in whether or not a duel will be accepted or not.

Even when you\'re chaotic evil and mad, you will not simply send a challenge to someone OOC-ly. Instead, you will RP that, if your wish to fight is actually IC and not OOC jerkiness. Also, you would make sure t5hat you only attack people of whom you are sure they also are IC, _and_ you would also make sure that the situation they RP actually gives an opportunity for you to attack. In almost no way would you manage to randomly attack someone who just moments ago RP\'d \"/me looks around warily\".

The scene would then be something like this:

Madman: *giggles silently, looking at Victim*
Victim:
Madman: *draws the dagger and moves closer, stifling the giggles*
Victim: *is still not suspicious*
Madman: *suddenly jumps forward to stab Victim*
Victim: *is caught by surprise and barely manages to evade the first blow and assumes a defensive position*

Only now is the duelling request to be sent!

Also, since the plaza is IC-ly properly guarded, you would then have to RP beign arrested if you get caught, which you will also have to RP. In no way can you just duel and walk off. These are the problems that are most easily \"overlooked\" by those that \"RP chaotic / evil chars\". I am very much inclined that it is ignoring on purpose, but I might be wrong. If I were wrong, though, then all the trouble Monketh was having with trying to RP a guard division would never have arisen, so it is fair to assume that almost all of those \"RP\"ers are merely out to very OOC-ly do some PvP.

Edit: And even then, out of courtesy, you would likely relocate the actual fight to somewhere else. IC you wouldn\'t move locations, but OOC-ly you would, as convention to keep the plaza clean./Edit

I sincerely hope that this explains things.