Pip's Poll: Duelling Rules

[zanzibar]

Seytra, the battle you described was colourful and it would work.  HOWEVER, I strongly believe that such things as arrests, protection, revenge, and murder should be built into the very mechanics of Planeshift itself.  But for now, the system you described is the best we can do.

[Farren Kutter]

I\'ll have my guild follow the rules when appropriate... Heh, that is coming from the guy who uses a method of guerilla warfare in his guild wars, so it should be expected .

[Askr]

Originally posted by Seytra
Also, since the plaza is IC-ly properly guarded, you would then have to RP beign arrested if you get caught, which you will also have to RP. In no way can you just duel and walk off. These are the problems that are most easily \"overlooked\" by those that \"RP chaotic / evil chars\". I am very much inclined that it is ignoring on purpose, but I might be wrong. If I were wrong, though, then all the trouble Monketh was having with trying to RP a guard division would never have arisen, so it is fair to assume that almost all of those \"RP\"ers are merely out to very OOC-ly do some PvP.

Edit: And even then, out of courtesy, you would likely relocate the actual fight to somewhere else. IC you wouldn\'t move locations, but OOC-ly you would, as convention to keep the plaza clean./Edit

I\'ve been through this discussion already, so I don\'t really want to get into it again.  But your last paragraph here is something I would like to comment on.

Why doesn\'t everyone respond in this manner anyway?  Why must we wait for RP Laws and RP Law Enforcement, etc, before we rush the assaulting character?  I said it before: RP your opposition to the random duels, it is really rather simple.  To me, if you are a true and good RPer then you should be able to do so.

As far as whether you would move locations OOCly but not ICly, I believe your response in another post was that you should RP with your character.  Therefore, you would not OOCly move to a different location but attempt to ICly RP the Plaza.  If you are IC murdering, assaulting, duelling, challenging or whatever somone in the Plaza, that is where it should be done -- particularly if you are a good and true RPer.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Askr
Why doesn\'t everyone respond in this manner anyway?  Why must we wait for RP Laws and RP Law Enforcement, etc, before we rush the assaulting character?  I said it before: RP your opposition to the random duels, it is really rather simple.  To me, if you are a true and good RPer then you should be able to do so.

The main problem is, AFAICS, that a lot of this duelling is done by OOC people. They will simply ignore you when you try to stop them. I tried several times and got only laughed at. Likewise, I have asked people why they wanted to kill me (provided they didn\'t run off immediately after me declining the challenge): they just responded along the lines \"for fun\" and ran off to challenge the next player, i.e., completely OOC. IOW, it doesn\'t work.
Also, rushing the offender would be IC only for a few. Granted, in Yliakum, people are much more likely to risk death or injury than IRL so social courage would, in theory, increase. However, this would still require a lot of RPers, not just a few, to rush the offender, and it would also require the offender to be an RP themselves, which is, as I stated, unlikely, since we wouldn\'t have any such problems in that case anyway.

Originally posted by Askr
As far as whether you would move locations OOCly but not ICly, I believe your response in another post was that you should RP with your character.  Therefore, you would not OOCly move to a different location but attempt to ICly RP the Plaza.  If you are IC murdering, assaulting, duelling, challenging or whatever somone in the Plaza, that is where it should be done -- particularly if you are a good and true RPer.

Yes, I have said this, and I still stand by that. However, the major problem in this particular case is that OOC problems are pressing. An IC duel, conducted through the PvP system, is undistinguishable from an OOC duel. Therefore, it would seem like duelling is OK just like it seems to be now.
So it is really a deficiency of the game mechanics that should be worked around by moving away, like with certain races unable to enter the third room in the tavern.

However, I would be perfectly happy to drop that requirement should it become evident that the community is strong enough to restrict it to IC duels only and thereby explain it to all newbies who might mistake it for duelling for OOC fun. But I fear that this isn\'t possible, for the RP community is not that big compared to the amount of non RPers or newbies, and duels are over so fast that the offenders are likely long gone before you arrive at the scene.
Also, since this is only a minor issue for RP, and affects only a very few RPers (since duelling realistically and IC usually isn\'t common), the drawbacks aren\'t as severe as in the cases I commented on on the other thread. The duel would still be observable, just not jump into your face. I think that RP\'d duels (i.e., those not using the PvP system) can perfectly well continue to take place in the plaza. It\'s really just to get rid of the OOC-ness and OOC feel.

[Askr]

Originally posted by Seytra
The main problem is, AFAICS, that a lot of this duelling is done by OOC people. They will simply ignore you when you try to stop them. I tried several times and got only laughed at. IOW, it doesn\'t work.
Also, rushing the offender would be IC only for a few. Granted, in Yliakum, people are much more likely to risk death or injury than IRL so social courage would, in theory, increase. However, this would still require a lot of RPers, not just a few, to rush the offender, and it would also require the offender to be an RP themselves, which is, as I stated, unlikely, since we wouldn\'t have any such problems in that case anyway.

I have mentioned this in another thread, but anytime I confront non-RPers with RP they either begin RPing or they tire of acting OOC when I am responding in an IC manner.

Yes rushing the offender would be IC for only a few, which is the point of the RP, is it not?  We do not expect the RPers to act OOC just to rush some random duellists.  That would invalidate the whole IC vs. OOC issue.  Therefore the RP would be given that much more depth, because you would have those that would attempt to stop the duellists and those that IC would attempt to protect the unaware OOC characters and then those that would attempt to further the mayhem. )  All in good RP afterall.

Yes, I have said this, and I still stand by that. However, the major problem in this particular case is that OOC problems are pressing. An IC duel, conducted through the PvP system, is undistinguishable from an OOC duel. Therefore, it would seem like duelling is OK just like it seems to be now.
So it is really a deficiency of the game mechanics that should be worked around by moving away, like with certain races unable to enter the third room in the tavern.

I just RP the deficiencies in the game myself.  I mean after all who is to say that the gods did not intend for certain races to not be able to enter a certain room or building or leave a certain area (like when I can\'t make the transition to Akkaio ).  Perhaps that is just a degree to which you want to RP?

However, I would be perfectly happy to drop that requirement should it become evident that the community is strong enough to restrict it to IC duels only and thereby explain it to all newbies who might mistake it for duelling for OOC fun. But I fear that this isn\'t possible, for the RP community is not that big compared to the amount of non RPers or newbies, and duels are over so fast that the offenders are likely long gone before you arrive at the scene.
Also, since this is only a minor issue for RP, and affects only a very few RPers (since duelling realistically and IC usually isn\'t common), the drawbacks aren\'t as severe as in the cases I commented on on the other thread. The duel would still be observable, just not jump into your face. I think that RP\'d duels (i.e., those not using the PvP system) can perfectly well continue to take place in the plaza. It\'s really just to get rid of the OOC-ness and OOC feel.

I agree with you that the RP community is nearly nonexistent.  Again, my wife and I nearly stopped playing PS early on because of the lack of serious RPers.  I agree that RPed duels are by far the better \'format(?)\'..  But with so few RPers, RP duels vs PvP duels are going to be nonexistent just because of numbers.

As far as the offenders being long gone, well that is part of the reality of the situation.  Just because you hear shots fired or a scream for help does not mean you are going to be able to assist, unless of course you are superman or something .  And again that is all part of the RP.  Dissapointment, confrontation, and the inexplicable are all parts of life and should be part of your RP as well -- unless of course your characters bear no resemblence to actual living-breathing individuals.  Which is what I thought the whole point of RP was.

I believe the entire issue is not so much with duelling, but with everyone\'s view of the environment.  Those that are so avidly supporting and defending these rules/ideas are very much about predefined storylines with little to no interference from outsiders.  Everything needs to be scripted and predetermined, and though it may be visible to outsiders, it should not interfere with them and they should not interfere with it except in a scripted and determined manner.  Reality, life, and RP are not like that.  

Perhaps my background in RP differs so much from others in this game that I can RP just about any situation believably and no one else even wants to, much less be able to.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Askr
I just RP the deficiencies in the game myself.  I mean after all who is to say that the gods did not intend for certain races to not be able to enter a certain room or building or leave a certain area (like when I can\'t make the transition to Akkaio ).  Perhaps that is just a degree to which you want to RP?

Absolutely, yes. I never RP anything that is obviously not meant to be ingame. Bugs. Crashes. Lack of content. OOC people. Typos. Movement flaws. Wipes. Invisible walls. End of the world. Graphical glitches.
All these things are completely obviously never ment to be ingame, so they are not to be RPd. When you \"RP\" them, then in reality you are completely OOC, and you might just as well talk undesignatedly OOC about the computer games you play besides PS.

The game world is completely finished, all parts exist, no glitches, no bugs are there. IOW, the PS world is exactly the way it is envisioned by the devs. From an IC (and thus RP) perspective.
RPing those deficiencies isn\'t possible. What is possible is to phrase things as if they were RP, but that is just a mockery, just like comedy movies. It also compleely destroys realism, and also takes away all credibility from your RP, invalidating it.

What you describe as \"responding ICly to OOC players\" is the same. It is what some call \"Uber RP\", and is just as bad as OOC-ness. I am surprised that you have seen it make the other RP. There is a very fine line on that, obviously. When they ask a question that could realistically be IC, then the answer may very well be IC. However, what can\'t really be IC can\'t be responded to IC. And most people don\'t notice the difference, even if you add a lot of /me-ing, like I do. It takes an explicit OOC explanation, and most won\'t even honour the request to talk in brackets.

As for the scriptedness: where did you get that from? When did I say that RP should not be interruptible? All I said is that RP must not be interrupted by non RP of whatever form. And non RP is what almost all duelling is. If RP crosses RP of others, then bothe will merge, at least for a while. However, this mandates that both parties are actually RPing, and this is by far not common in case of duels. My RP is never scripted, and all RP that happens to mix will affect it. However, I do (at least IC-ly) ignore everything that isn\'t either good RP, not obviously OOC or coming from someone of whom I know or can be reasonbably sure that they want to learn to RP. Only that way believable, high quality RP can be done AFAICS.

Edit: However, this is straying severely off topic, so we shouldn\'t keep discussing this here.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Seytra
The game world is completely finished, all parts exist, no glitches, no bugs are there. IOW, the PS world is exactly the way it is envisioned by the devs. From an IC (and thus RP) perspective.
RPing those deficiencies isn\'t possible. What is possible is to phrase things as if they were RP, but that is just a mockery, just like comedy movies. It also compleely destroys realism, and also takes away all credibility from your RP, invalidating it.

Ah, the joys of double-think.


I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground.  There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.

[Tolgar]

i personaly whould like to vote on each rule individualy untill then i wont vote

[Tarcaldy]

Originally posted by Tolgar
i personaly whould like to vote on each rule individualy untill then i wont vote

Then you are at risk of having rules imposed on you without your say in the matter. It is better that you cast your vote and watch for the revision. Look above the Yay vote is winning.  Not that it means much unless it becomes official PS rules for GM to enforce.
O, I voted Nay. I agree with Lady Verrliit?s view on the matter.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by zanzibar
I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground.  There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.

There is: the way things are supposed to be. It\'s not really hard to deduce how things are meant to be for most parts. There is no common ground to be found, because your way to \"RP\" is diametrally opposed to mine. Therefore, if I were to RP with you at all, I would implicitely accept your \"RP\" as IC reality, which it isn\'t to me, which would in turn invalidate my RP. I don\'t \"RP\" a shallow comedy. Neither do I \"RP\" a mockery of the PS world. Both are completely pointless and a waste of time. So I won\'t be able to interact with you ICly, just as with any other OOC person, in order to protect my RP from degrading.

@ Tolgar: you could, however, post your opinion and reasoning on each point that you don\'t agree with, so that they can be seen and taken into account by everyone.

[r.guppy]

I see this as another reason for yay vote.

Talad
Administrator
* Re-wrote invite spam-blocker:
- Now only triggered on declines, so as to not block legitimate invites.
- Penalties now increase with each decline:
1) 1 min lockout
2) 5 min + warning
3) 10 min + 10 advisor point fine + 10 duel point fine, if duel spam + death
4) 30 point fine(s) + death + kick from server
- Penalties expire with gameplay time, and can be lowered by getting an accept from a player with no penalties and a enough advisor points.
- Penalty level is saved to the player\'s account entry in the database, so repeat offenders can\'t escape it. (relog resets to 3rd level)


 :]

[Karyuu]

Janner, the updates in the new release do not influence anything but duel-spam. It does not address moving fights out of the plaza or any other RP location, nor does it address players needing to talk to each other before challenging. The updates only help combat repetitive abuse.

[Tolgar]

(21:26:30) Tolgar says: are we allowed to duel in the plaza as long as its not in a populated area?
(21:27:05) Alden says: if nobody is around at all then i guess nobody is around to punnish you


a great point from a great gm..Alden

[r.guppy]

Did not say it did just think that it is a good reason to vote yay. and my reason being i think it will stop the idiots running round trying to fight anyone in sight.    
 And if they RP a duel it is not a problem.   )

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Seytra

Originally posted by zanzibar
I disagree with you, but if you operate that way and I operate another way then we have to find a common ground.  There isn\'t a single right way of RPing -- we just have to have fun without preventing others from doing the same.

There is: the way things are supposed to be. It\'s not really hard to deduce how things are meant to be for most parts. There is no common ground to be found, because your way to \"RP\" is diametrally opposed to mine. Therefore, if I were to RP with you at all, I would implicitely accept your \"RP\" as IC reality, which it isn\'t to me, which would in turn invalidate my RP. I don\'t \"RP\" a shallow comedy. Neither do I \"RP\" a mockery of the PS world. Both are completely pointless and a waste of time. So I won\'t be able to interact with you ICly, just as with any other OOC person, in order to protect my RP from degrading.

@ Tolgar: you could, however, post your opinion and reasoning on each point that you don\'t agree with, so that they can be seen and taken into account by everyone.

You\'re still being way too narrow minded on this.  Seytra, I don\'t RP \"Evil\".  I don\'t RP \"Annoying\".  I don\'t RP \"Comical\", or \"Pathetic\", or \"Friend\", or \"Wise\".  I RP within a ~system~ of different personalities and people all working together to create something new and greater than the individual parts.  You and me doing things differently in the same place and time is what creates the complexity which makes RP interesting and good.  It\'s the same with everyone.  We all RP with different values and beliefs surrounding friendship, loyalty, violence, knowledge, riches, life and death.  Though you might prefer your combintation above all others, the others are no less valid by default.  Instead, you need to learn how to get along with others in a more complex system of RP where being ok, being healthy, even being happy isn\'t the normal state at all times.  In any RPG and in any story, people get  frustrated.  They get sick and die.  They hurt one another, and they find revenge.  But this is what makes the ~good~ parts of RP worthwhile and interesting and things to be treasured.  I wish you could see things that way.