Yliakean Technology

[Zan]

I\'d like to open a discussion on technology in planeshift here. I didn\'t put this in the wish list section because I didn\'t really make this thread to discuss specific technological gadgets or machinery ... instead I\'d like to gather opinions on a more general level.

We are all aware that Planeshift uses a medieval fantasy setting and over here there wasn\'t much technology available in medieval times. The middle ages on earth were characterized by a strong religious and feudal system that purposefully kept the masses ignorant, definitely not a good breeding ground for technological advancement. It is my opinion and observation that the atmosphere in Planeshift comes over quite differently. There are far less religious people and citizens are definitely not ignorant. Of course they can\'t be because they are played by us, an educated (some less than others ) 21st century generation. This is mainly why I feel that some form of technology should get a place in Yliakum, it will bring the environment closer to us.

My question is what kind of technology? At what level of advancement do you see Yliakean engineers and scientists? And what is its use? Is it overshadowed by magic or could it possibly work together with magic? Is technology commonly accepted or kept very secret and only used by a select few? Do certain races or guilds have dibs on specific branches of technology? That and many more questions can hopefully be discussed here.

When I think about all this I would like to see a bit more technology than we currently have in planeshift but nowhere near the real life tech level.
I think basic mechanics like levers, cogs, springs, ... should be discovered and known in PS. Perhaps even simple hydraulic and steam powered systems but no Yliakean should have knowledge of any kind of electrical system. This means there is no miniaturisation ... all machines and equipment will be rather large and driven by water (including steam and hydraulics), air (windmills) or rarely magical sources. It is all built up by cogs, wheels, springs, chains, levers, ropes, tubes, ... in various materials.

Building and researching technology should only be a hobby for a certain elite since most people dislike it. It is usually large, clumsy, unreliable and you need a lot of knowledge to operate it. Magic is a much more commonly accepted alternative. Yet there are a few that delve into machinery and technology .. some because they don\'t want to rely on the gods, others because they are simply techy geeks. Whatever the reason is these people usually find eachother and live in their workshops and labs building better equipment. Usually there is only one of every machine type built or maybe a handful if it is particularly useful. Most things never see the world outside the engineer\'s workshop though.

Once every while a piece of technology does manage to escape from the lab and end up in the real world, not rarely with a grinning inventor attached to it. This tends to bring out all sorts of reactions and emotions from amazed looks to furious calls to arms. Since some see technology as an insult and a threat to religion and magic.

This is how I feel it should be implemented in the history of Yliakum ... then it is up to us, the players, to determine what happens in the present.

[Shami]

Exploding gnome-machines is what we need. You\'ll also see some technology in the Sewers, with those huge gears.

[Cyberchu]

I do not see reason for technology and magic to be seperate subjects, as they are both large fields with many posiblities combinations. Why should Magic and technology not work together? I would expect current technology to be more magic/machine com,binations than relying on onw or the other. After all why can magic not be termed another field of science?

[Moogie]

Magic and Technology in Planeshift go hand-in-hand. The inhabitants of the world are capable of constructing incredible buildings and structures, such that will make you truely \"wow\" when you see them.

The setting is medieval-fantasy, but this does not mean technology is restrained by the \'medieval\' part. While most of the villages and settlements you\'ll see will adhere to this time period, you must remember that Yliakum is not earth, and certain races have by far surpassed the technological advancement of others, in strange and fantastic ways.

[Nikodemus]

I believe it is very important matter to discuss, because it is kind of thing what make base of most topics. Better understanding of on what level of technology we are in Yliakum, will allow us to be more specific if there comes about eg. weapon making technology.
As the new technologies are being developed, old ways of doing stuff fade away. Thus the low differences beatwen used by us stuff at a given time.
And magic is its part, it would be obvious ignorance to not make use of it. Like if we need very durable cog for some machinery we have eg two options: 1)Use very good type of steel which is very expensive 2)Use more simple in production steel and enchant it for the needed durability, in which case cost of steel will be low and also magic won\'t be very strong thus also not expensive. It will most likely happen that 2) will be less expensive than 1).

And my example taken from the scrapes of ps setting.
The description of cold Dwanden montch tells us about great furnaces which was built (probbaly on lovel levels) in order to provide warmth to people both on the ground and in the water.
This may sound simple, but to provide some change to the water temperature which we know is a lot the furnaces must be giant. This of how much planning, phisics knowledge and math calculations does it need. And there is also matter of the way how the warmth is transfered into the water. The matter of where the created pollution is going. Maybe through drilled holes in the stalactite, to the cave below. Drilling is also not that simple and need specialistic tools.
We can\'t expect all this is done only magically. And we have to keep in mind that same as technology at defined time is limited, magic also is. Magic is less to foresee and more dangerous than tehnology without it.

[Avarus]

Speaking about technologie, is this made by Aliens or something:

[steuben]

my take on the question, at least, is this.

there are basically two schools of though when it comes to smithing. the first uses \"traditional\" methods, coal, wood, charcoal. the second uses variants of fire glyphs.

for the most part the two schools are capable of doing exactly the same work. but, members of the two schools, while tolerate each other, have been known to get into some pretty serious brawls. more then a few bar chairs and tables have been rendered into kindling.

the traditional school views the magic school as putting too much work into the task, and making the whole thing \"mysterious\". while the magic school thinks that the traditionals think are basically lazy, and inelegant. of course there are those that combine the two schools, but they are few and far between.

but, as for a magiced gear being cheaper then an equivalent metal gear, not quite. there is a trade-off in terms of skills. magic is a much intensive skill then smithing/machining. as a result the cost of the person doing the magicing is greater. the end cost of the gear on the shelf will probably end up being the same. though there may end up being some durability issues. because spells are not infinite in effect length. it boils down it a balance question.

as for the furnaces. it doesn\'t take as much modern science as it seems. there are many emperical rules and rules of thumb that can be developed/used. aided by the fact that things such as heating lots of things usually scale pretty well. the first big particle accelerators were fined tuned as they ran by hand adjusting metal shims to get the required focus. the great roman aquaducts were built knowing the water basically runs down hill. some of the valley crossing were built with out any knowledge of hydraulics.

[Monketh]

Avarus: I believe it is part of the lifting apparatus for traveling between levels.


Anyhow.  It should be noted that in order to maintain the midieval-fantasy setting, mass-production of anything cannot occur.  Technology, even if combined with magic, cannot be allowed to pass the threshold into the industrial revolution; this will either happen by player action, or more likely, engine limiting.

Note that the use of magic in technology poses several undesirable liabilities:
a.) Any sort of magic-neutralizing spell could essentially destroy or render inoperable most machinery.
b.) Magic ways must be assigned to machinery.  However, that may not be difficult.
c.) I get the perception that magic, although it can be studied as a science, is still unstable.

It is important that the money-vs-magic debate is something that must be applied to any character in game seeking to construct machinery, and incorporated into the engine.

Personally, I would like to see technology on a massive scale, something that can create-and be-an entire map as well as all of it\'s feel.  It would be better hidden underground, though.

[Farren Kutter]

Yeh, I like the idea of maybe Magic running the machinery... Instead of electricity, we can use magic. but it is not my choice.

[steuben]

c.) I get the perception that magic, although it can be studied as a science, is still unstable.

i\'m not sure. i saw it writen somewhere else, \"the glyphs aren\'t magic.\" instability, doesn\'t quite work as part of the basic rules.

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by Moogie
Magic and Technology in Planeshift go hand-in-hand. The inhabitants of the world are capable of constructing incredible buildings and structures, such that will make you truely \"wow\" when you see them.

The setting is medieval-fantasy, but this does not mean technology is restrained by the \'medieval\' part. While most of the villages and settlements you\'ll see will adhere to this time period, you must remember that Yliakum is not earth, and certain races have by far surpassed the technological advancement of others, in strange and fantastic ways.

Moogie, you are a terrible tease.



This isn\'t going to happen \"soon\", is it?

I\'ll bet it is going to be \"later\", instead.

*Verrliit pouts*


Shame on you.  You got me all worked up for nothing:
 
/cast summon_demonic_battlebot
/battlebot_target next_nearest_player
/battlebot_attack armor_piercing_steelfrostychaincannonofthewhlrlwind

Just isn\'t going to happen...

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by steuben
there are basically two schools of though when it comes to smithing. the first uses \"traditional\" methods, coal, wood, charcoal. the second uses variants of fire glyphs.

for the most part the two schools are capable of doing exactly the same work. but, members of the two schools, while tolerate each other, have been known to get into some pretty serious brawls. more then a few bar chairs and tables have been rendered into kindling.

the traditional school views the magic school as putting too much work into the task, and making the whole thing \"mysterious\". while the magic school thinks that the traditionals think are basically lazy, and inelegant. of course there are those that combine the two schools, but they are few and far between.

Is this any kind of official info? Or you have just made it up? I have never heard of the two schools.
And you say that the second school members are making weapons from fire glyphs? Like *woof* and a magical sword appears?

Originally posted by steuben
but, as for a magiced gear being cheaper then an equivalent metal gear, not quite. there is a trade-off in terms of skills. magic is a much intensive skill then smithing/machining. as a result the cost of the person doing the magicing is greater. the end cost of the gear on the shelf will probably end up being the same. though there may end up being some durability issues. because spells are not infinite in effect length. it boils down it a balance question.

The cost of producing different quality steel isn\'t linear, but more likely kind of parabolic, thus using low magic powers make sense.
You probably must know that using somethink results in its decaying and it don\'t have to be enchanted. People solved this prolem in various ways, and so they would solve problems with recharging enchanted items.
But who said the spell isn\'t infinite? I have seen noone who would use this argument against our new \"ubermagic\" weapons.
Somethink is wrong here, Stauben and needs well thought explanation.

Originally posted by steuben
as for the furnaces. it doesn\'t take as much modern science as it seems. there are many emperical rules and rules of thumb that can be developed/used. aided by the fact that things such as heating lots of things usually scale pretty well. the first big particle accelerators were fined tuned as they ran by hand adjusting metal shims to get the required focus. the great roman aquaducts were built knowing the water basically runs down hill. some of the valley crossing were built with out any knowledge of hydraulics.

You know, there is a reason why first great furnaces have been developed not that long time ago that you use modern word. I don\'t quite get this part about particle accelerators, but isnt it modern invention? Maybe i obviously don\'t get your most important point. :s
As for the Aquaducts... To build it, you need to know far more than fact the water runs downhill. Romans used the advenced knowledge they got about architecture. Technology of buildng aquaducts wasn\'t understood for a long time after the Roman empire fall. The people of medieval age feared these constructions and believed these were built by the gods, not human for a long time.

Also look at the picture Avarus posted.
How much more complex is technology of doing this than aquaducts?
Maybe devs were a bit too imaginative, but if they weren\'t then i would compare it to the latest known to us technologies of materials and connecting them into this what you see above.


And for the end.
Verrliit, Moogie just told how the things stand, \"soon\"erTM or later we will see real changes in game, but instead to propose somethink, you seem to ignore all this, like it isn\'t hapening.
And i don\'t think so we will have any kinds of robots.
EDIT: Enchancing a simple cog or weapon is somethink very different than machinery ran only by weird magic force which signs i see nowhere.

Face the facts and see how a realistic world can be built around this what we have. Are you up to challenge?

[Suno_Regin]

Originally posted by Moogie
you must remember that Yliakum is not earth, and certain races have by far surpassed the technological advancement of others, in strange and fantastic ways.

I thought Yliakum was an underground city of earth...I don\'t think Humans can live on another planet :|

[Noobis]

No eletricity? Thats wierd... We use all the traditional elements and forces of magic but not the 5th element \'Electricity\'

Electricty, Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Light, Dark

Electricty is a thing that needs to be added.

Electricty is powerful and hard to control, only the most powerful of Sorcerers master the power of Electricty. They are usually partnered with blacksmiths to make weaponry to channel the Electrical element.

When other elements are combined with the Electricty element, if not controlled properly could kill you.

Water and Electricty, if there is a stream of water connected with you or close to you, and a powerful current of electricty is added, it will effect you as well as your target.

If earth element and Electricty are not properly channeled, then you will end up creating a useless spell.

Also I think there should be more \'Material needs\' in spells. Such as a teleportation spell that requires a placement of a target object, and the use of some powerful rare material, such as 5 gold fire swords. You need the gold and magic of the weapons to generate the powerful spell.

Also, with technology, you can create a steam engine that is small. Using magic. I also feel that magic, tech, and physical powers need to be more balanced in this. Like if you train in one point of Intellegence you lose one point of strength. If you train in STR you lose INT. If you train AGIL you lose WILL. Something like that. Maybe not exactly that but something similar. Also at character creation you should have to choose if you want to use spells or not. On this Scale-

Techer- low weapons, No spells, Best with Spells.
Fighter- No magic, Low Tech, good with every weapon.
Magic- low tech, No Weapons, best with spells.

Techer/Fighter- decent with most weapons, knows most tech but not best with it.

Techer/Magic- Decent with magic and tech.

Magic/fighter- Decent with some weapons, knows alot of magic.

Also you can go more prestige-

Monk- Magic fighter- No weapons, No armor, Great Magic, Best Melee fighter.

Jack of all trades- This is the only class that can build unique machines, spells, and weapons. Such as, A machine fighter that casts spells, and a weapon that casts spells.

[steuben]

And you say that the second school members are making weapons from fire glyphs?

no more or less then you get magical weapons from coal. i said using not from.

The cost of producing different quality steel isn\'t linear, thus using low magic powers make sense.

the cost of the metal is a small portion of the cost of final product. there are additional costs involved in the actual production of the cog itself. the cost of magicing a weaker steel cog will probably out weigh the difference in the price of the steels between the two grades. since the metal has to be milled into exactly the same shape.

I don\'t quite get this part about particle accelerators...? Maybe i obviously don\'t get your most important point.

basically it was you don\'t need the complete science. you can sometimes get away with only rough guestimates and tweak the rest into place. portions of the roman aquaducts were the same. in places where the valleys were too deep they had to run the water through pipes. those sections of the aquaducts were designed and built without calculus. many modern civil engineers wouldn\'t be able to try that.

How much more complex is technology of doing this than aquaducts?

assuming stone, idiotically so. there is a very large drop below that. with stone basically the structure has to be supported until the key stone is put in place. a large structure has to be built to support the weight of the stone. but, assuming metals, not quite so. the construction is simpler mostly because you can assemble bits on surface and set them place from above. the support structure is by far smaller/simpler.

there is a reason why first great furnaces have been developed not that long time ago

only for the use of smelting steel. until 19th century the large furnace technology didn\'t change that much. it may have gotten bigger but the basic concept didn\'t change.

Technology of buildng aquaducts wasn\'t understood for a long time after the Roman empire fall.

the romans understood much of it. the problem is that we lost _a lot_ of knowledge with the collapse of the empire. it wasn\'t until the 19th century that the use of concrete began to equal that of the empire.