chat over jabber

[Rilar]

Regarding the development in the instant messaging (IM) market,
especially the news of google-talk made me think about the chat within PS.
Lag in chat is a known and very annoying issue.
Also there is no copy and paste available which is also a known issue.

Both could be solved by outsourcing the /tell, /guild and /group channel to jabber.
I am against copy and paste in open chat and auction because it would result in pure spamming.
By outsourcing those three channels to the jabber
system also the weight on the server would slightly get eased.

Also by using Jabber it would be possible to chat from
outside with persons inside of PS without actually logging on.
One could say \"Planeshift is not there to chat\" but
 actually it is more than one want to admit.
Just take all those people into account who just stand
around appearing idle but actually chatting with others over /tell.

With the possibility to chat with people inside from
outside it is not only easier to organise RP without being logged on all the time,
but also all the people idling about wouldnt take server
ressources anymore because they wouldnt have to idle inside of PS.

One could also think about outsourcing the /help channel that way,
but of course with some modifications.

[Seytra]

This idea has been proposed for IRC before, and I\'m not entirely against it.
However, the way Jabber works, it will be impossible to use it for anything but a separate channel. Outsourcing /tell, /group and /guild will be near impossible, or at least way more work than would be rewarding.
You would have to filter all incoming chat and dispatch it to the appropriate tabs. This would require you to insert markers on outgoing chat about where it needs to go. The problem is that you would have to encode it all as text, so unless you convert the entire message to somethiung like uuencode, the parsing may easily be confused by things that appear in the normal chat.

It is possible, but I see no benefit in it. A separate IRC or Jabber tab would serve all the OOC idlers just as well AFAICS, without having to layer another, yet to be developed, protocol on top of IRC or Jabber.

[DaveG]

I\'m going to have to agree with Seytra on this.  I just don\'t see the point.  We\'re trying to go for an immersive world here, not an all purpose chat room.  If you want extra OOC chat, just open an IRC window next to PS.  Besides, we don\'t need to be relying on other systems for these things.

[Rilar]

IMHO those three channels can easily be handled client-sided. As you type /tell [name] [msg] and the names in guild and group are explicitely known, the only not very difficult problem, i think, is, to assign the names IG to jabber accounts.
Group chat is existent in Jabber, afaik (although I don`t use it) so there shouldn`t be much trouble to get around the problem concerning the group chat.
And if the group chat implemented in jabber is not appropriate, group chat could also be handled internally as a series of /tells and be set together at the other client.

You would have to filter all incoming chat and dispatch it to the appropriate tabs. This would require you to insert markers on outgoing chat about where it needs to go.

The client will determine to what channel the message will be send. If it is one of the three, the program has to determine the jabber name of the recipient. The channel in which actually the message is send is part of the packet sent. The receiving client treats the message as a normal jabber message with the difference that it looks at the header of the packet in which the channel is mentioned in which the message should be shown.

without having to layer another, yet to be developed, protocol on top of IRC or Jabber.

It doesnt have to be another protocol, only a switch to the in the PS-client implemented jabber-client. At startup the PS-client checks whether the jabber network is reachable, if yes it uses it. Whether not the old system is used. The only difference the user would notice is the existing or non existing functionality provided by the jabber net.

We\'re trying to go for an immersive world here, not an all purpose chat room.

The point is to provide a greater functionality without much more work for the developers of PS. Once the basic system is implemented other developers could provide updates/plugins for it. I have the gaim-plugin for Battle-net chat in mind here. Besides of that the chat wouldnt be affected _that_ much of the servers lag. *is IG atm and experiencing heavy chat lag*

Edit: \"I have the gaim-plugin for Battle-net chat in mind here.\" means: there is a plug-in for gaim. Why shouldnt there be a similar plugin for PS chat? Sooner or later there will be one, I`m pretty sure.. why the effort to stop this development by using another protocol?

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

for those who play full screen - it would not be plausible... and would mean they would miss out on parts of the gaming, also you must bear in mind the lesser powerful computers who might not be able to handle all the programs running at the same time without great loss of quality.

[Seytra]

@ amogorkon: It would be another protocol. A simple, high level one (layered on top of the Jabber protocol), but nontheless a protocol. But I assumed you\'d want to pipe PS traffic through a shared Jabber account, but instead you seem to propose using individual ones.
That, however, would require everyone to have a Jabber account and be willing to tell you about it. I do have one, but I am most definitely not willing to share it with almost everyone in PS.

This means that either each PS account would need an automatically created Jabber account, or the entire communication in /group, /tell or /guild would be available only to those who have one and share it with you, thereby effectively locking me (and others with similar mindset) out of some parts of PS communications, which clearly can\'t be the intent.
Also, you propose to have the conventional system in place in case the Jabber network isn\'t reachable (or, by extension, if the other player didn\'t supply a Jabber account). Now this obviously doubles the burden on the devs instead of lessening it: they will not only need to maintain and troubleshoot the conventional system, but also the interface to the Jabber network. So this clearly is not saving work.

The only thing that your system could realistically provide is a separate tab. This has been done for IRC already. However, this tab would be the exact same as your normal Jabber client, and have no connection to PS save being integrated into it\'s GUI. This I wouldn\'t mind, but it\'s definitely something that I wouldn\'t want the devs to waste their time on.
Yes, fullscreen players have a problem ATM, because of the PS crashing when tasked away bug. However, this bug will eventually vanish. Also, I think that a Jabber client is a very simple application that doesn\'t put much of a processsing burden on the user\'s system, so it won\'t really be noticable AFAICS. Yes, the missed gameplay does apply, but then again, imagine your Jabber talk inside the chat window... it\'d essentially drown out the IC conversations. The solution would be to only have Jabber chat in the JAbber tab, which would obviously make for the same problem as tasking PS away, save the temporary crash issue.

All in all I still fail to see real benefits.

[Rilar]

This means that either each PS account would need an automatically created Jabber account

Yes, I thought at this one.

Now this obviously doubles the burden on the devs instead of lessening it: they will not only need to maintain and troubleshoot the conventional system, but also the interface to the Jabber network. So this clearly is not saving work.

Well, implementing a system on which others outside of PS can build on should indeed lessen the burden of the Devs, not by writing less code but by getting help and code by programmers from outside (from programmers of gaim-modules, just for example).

Yes, the missed gameplay does apply, but then again, imagine your Jabber talk inside the chat window...

Well, with an automatically created acc you could choose whether you also want or not your non-PS jabber talk IG by implementing the option to add other then PS-accounts to the jabberclient inside of PS-client.

All in all I still fail to see real benefits.

A jabber based communication should  (usually) lower the delay of communication to non-noticeability. First and biggest advantage. The other advantages are clear at hand: You can communicate with people inside of PS without actually logging in, which will optimise the ressources (server burden in the first place but also on the players side time spent in vain/PLing/idling).
The issues with several windows open at once are solved smartly plus there is the possibility to easily built add-ons on the communication system (because there are already many existent ones based on jabber).

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by amogorkon
The other advantages are clear at hand: You can communicate with people inside of PS without actually logging in, which will optimise the ressources (server burden in the first place but also on the players side time spent in vain/PLing/idling).

But... that would just turn PlaneShift once more into a giant chatroom. And this time without even 3D graphics. Why would you want to talk to anyone who is in-game while you are not? Isn\'t the whole point of being in-game to roleplay? I just fail to see the point, once more...

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Originally posted by Karyuu

Originally posted by amogorkon
The other advantages are clear at hand: You can communicate with people inside of PS without actually logging in, which will optimise the ressources (server burden in the first place but also on the players side time spent in vain/PLing/idling).

But... that would just turn PlaneShift once more into a giant chatroom. And this time without even 3D graphics. Why would you want to talk to anyone who is in-game while you are not? Isn\'t the whole point of being in-game to roleplay? I just fail to see the point, once more...

Neither do we... it is just too much hassle, and would be best left out of the picture. and typed words are easier to correct prior to sending and spoken words, well once said cannot be retracted, and leaves it open to searious abuse, that cannot be proven, unless you were there and are willing to give evidence.

[Rilar]

After having some talk with some of those who replied I`d like to revise my request.
I understand the position towards 3rd party systems. Maybe I should not have put the topic that specific, but more general.
The general idea of the outsourcing was to put the chat away from the other traffic over the server.
For those three channels (/tell, /group and /guild) this could also be done by P2P. The open channel and auction chat still has to be broadcasted, which means it has to be done by the server.
The problem is not the chat itself, but the lag caused by the other things IG and the physical distance of the clients to the server.
Using P2P for those channels should solve these problems.

The other thing, implementing a jabber client into PS is indeed a controverse.
One side is the argument that PS is not a big chatroom but an immersive gaming world and that making it possible to chat with the outer world would disturb from the RP.
The advise to open a seperate chat program aside of PS creates one proplem I wanted to solve.
Not to mention IRC which I nearly never have open when playing because it really disturbs me, I have an ICQ/Jabber client open to chat with one or two persons while playing.
But this means to get disturbed also by each window-tab. A personal issue.. but it can be generalised. For instance it is also an issue for GMs, guild leaders, advisors and all the other people who are just IG to be \"present\" - semi-afk.
People who dont actually play should not be forced to be IG just because they dont have the possibility to access their buddies/help searching newbies/people who want to join a guild/guildmembers/and so forth.
I am aware that this issue is only a low priority but it _is_ an issue. If you settle the problem above (p2p chat) maybe you keep in mind to give 3rd parties the possibility to easily build upon the PS system.

Please get me right: I don`t intent to request something which disturbs RP (because I am sure people will tell their RL friends to shut up while playing by setting afk-status or something). I think the contrary will be the case. By having the possibility to access the chat from outside people wont be forced to stay IG anymore -> less idling people+ better chances to call people inside -> better organised RP, less wasted time and server ressources.
This, indeed, could also be managed by a 3rd party module and routed over the PS server. Then one would only has to submit an optional jabber/IRC/ICQ account, which could be masked by the PS nick.
With that the help-channel could also be maintained from outside.

[DaveG]

The only truly useful thing in this proposal, would be a way for people to communicate to GMs without them having to loiter in-game.  However, another proposed solution was to have the petitions viewable by GMs simply connecting to Laanx\'s web server, without having to log into the game.  This seems to be the best solution for that issue, in my opinion.

For P2P:  It\'s just not worth it.  Chat works fine; it\'s other stuff that\'s lagging.  Maybe it could be considered for tells, but I don\'t see it being a priority.  We need to fix the remaining packet idiocies and other lag crap, and all should work again.

[Nostradamus]

I agree with Seytra. But I would also think about an other ingame chat option, or two.

First I would like to have the option of chatting only to a certain group of people. Like friends or better said those that are on my buddy list. This compensates for the amount of text I need to read while playing. And if I need help, I can still use the /advisor [question] command, or switch to the other chat group I like to be implemented guild I am member of. (even specific when being member of more guilds.)

Another option I would like to see is the option to block people or groups from my chat. Like people that are blocked in my buddy list, I dont want to talk to them, why else block them via the budddy list.

But I prefer a kind of Skype alike kind if chat system. The reason being the fact that yo need to pay attention enough to your screen when playing, instead of hanging around idle. So talking would be a great solution.
Or because alot of people dont have a headset or mic, it might be possible to let people choose for the chat system they like.

Just my 2 cents,

Nostradamus